Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

UntilValhalla13

Caff32 wrote: »

Stop. Looking. At. Spreadsheets.
Start. Listening. To. Your. Players.
WE. DON'T. WANT. THESE. CHANGES.

^ This needs to be stickied somehow.

StabbityDoom

Small sidenote: For you folks who say "devs need to play the game" did you not see that Slashlurk @ZOS_RichLambert did that on stream for months? Would love to see it again to help prove this.

Deep_01

Pevey wrote: »

This is exactly what we expected. They still don't get it.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome.

You need to listen to vastly more anecdotal data and stop staring at the spreadsheets. Stop making every sticky dot in this game exactly the same, and every static dot exactly the same, and every spammable exactly the same.

We needed some indication that the combat team understood why we were upset. We got the opposite.

This!! Make every ability's duration, effect, animation, cost,buff/debuff applied unique. You can have similar damage to retain balance.

K9002

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ZOS is too data-driven. Sometimes intuition is better.

As far as their statistics go, I'd like to see the median DPS in vet dungeons and vet trials. Mean average isn't a very useful figure and neither are outliers like the top 200 players.

AJTC5000

Where are the damage adjustments for the higher-end content like RG HM and DSR HM, to compensate for the damage and healing changes? Where is the re-assurance to players who only use heavy attack builds? The communication is appreciated but it feels like this vision of the game going forward can't decide if it wants to be the current Live build or the initial PTS build . . .

SeaUnicorn

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Everyone is missing the point and ZoS isn’t telling…

They WANT damage to go down. That’s why this is happening. They can muse about floors and ceilings all they want but facts are what they are.

End game, the tippitey top .01%, will be able to manage with the new norm. They will find ways to claw back a portion of what’s being lost but will still manage to complete stuff, perhaps just a little bit slower.

Mid game, the 25k to maybe 75k folks, might still manage to complete but it’s iffy. They might manage to claw something back but it’ll take work. And they could also find themselves shut out of a lot of the content that’s supposed to be more ‘accessible’ with this patch. (I wish they’d stop using that term, use ‘available’ instead since ‘accessible’ has connotations of actual physical accessibility which isn’t this).

The average casual, of which I am part of, has no hope of seeing the inside of a HM trial let alone anything resembling a newer DLC HM.

The problem is that power creep comes from sets they keep adding, not from how abilities change. They should be addressing the root cause of power creep, not blindly nerfing the damage across the board.

Styxius

Side note, you need to up the ST coefficients of "Sticky" (Single Target I believe is the term you're looking for.) DoT's by about .02-.04 more, reason is if they aren't being competitive with AoE DoT's or as you called them "Static" Then AoE DoT's will surpass ST again leaving ST DoT's to fall into oblivion, as my prior post mentioned about the failures of Scalebreaker. This is leading to that scenario, again.

Elsonso

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ZOS is too data-driven. Sometimes intuition is better.

These things are not mutually exclusive, though.

Firstmep

The fact that suprise attack is becoming auto crit, while class spammables like skulls and birds exist is insane.

Aldoss

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Is PvP even an afterthought when these changes are being tossed around?

No, and it shouldn't be. Trying to balance PvP and PvE in a game like this is mathematically impossible. [snip]

Rude, completely uncalled for, and also false.

This game was marketed as a PvP game, first. It was developed by members of the same team that worked on DAoC. To this day, the main page of ESO markets Cyrodiil as a primary feature of the game.

This game can absolutely be balanced for PvP and PvE. Examples:

- Battle Spirit
- Bahsei
- Viscious Death

YOU don't like PvP. That's fine. YOU don't have to like it. That doesn't give you the right to downtalk those of us that do. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Danse_Mayhem

Mate… Just no.

None of that is what -anyone- wants.

Not a single community member wants their DPS murdered or any of these changes whatsoever. Literally none of these PTS changes on either week do anything for new players.

You still have an unfinished hybrid overhaul - Which by the way is still mega confusing for new players. When I teach new guild mates how to make builds, I already have to try and help them make sense of using weapon damage on a mag DK because of their passives, and using a 2H and daggers on a mag dps instead of staves… That whole thing was a nightmare for new players to grasp, and now you’re just killing dps / dots / hots across the board for what? Not a single explanation has been given as to how this will help newer players.

No one wants it. I know you guys don’t listen to feedback because you released dark convergence and oakensoul in their release state after people were screaming “NO” the whole way through the PTS cycle, but people literally have petitions this time around. Others are leaving the game.

Just scrap this crazy idea and release content that doesn’t have DPS checks if you want a difficulty increase. Or put your efforts into another class instead of constantly overhauling a game to make it worse every. Single. Time.


Yours truly, a day one player who cares about the game.

chessalavakia_ESO

Rats.

Not what I was hoping to hear but, that's life. Guess, I'll be looking at other games/being more productive in August.

Ah well thanks for taking the time to reply.

When you look at the Warden stuff, you might want to check over Polar Wind.

While I doubt you'll restore it back to it's glorious multi-tasking you might at least look at if the healing value is working as intended.

My hp stacked warden tank that isn't totally min maxed can in some situations out heal my healers in burst and out heal my healers in healing over time per second.

xDeusEJRx

Not surprised zos is doubling down on their stance.
ZOS love to use live servers for actual "testing" instead of listening to PTS feedback. What even is the point of PTS when they always double down on their week 1 updates and ignore what PTS testers say about updates?

Then they go and roll back the updates after people re-iterate the same opinions on the live servers that the PTS testers have been saying for months. Starting to think the pts is just for extra "flavor content" at this point and nothing more

NBlade

Hm..
I dunno, I don't see the point of these changes anymore.

At very first sight, it kinda made sense, with these longer dots. But it was half baked as any other changes to the game.

As far as I understand, the devs wants to make the casuals and mid tier player stronger, by simplifying Rotations with longer dots.
I let my 12 Year old niece try the changes, and yes she is the laziest dps I know, but is really determined to do more dps than my sister, so she gives it her best.
My sister on the other hand doesn't really care, she just keeps the dots up and if one falls off for longer, because she focus on the fight, thats fine with her.
But both of them said, without me trying to influence their thinking, that 20sec is too long and the fact that stuff like Degeneration goes up to 22sec from Passives, doesn't help with making the rotation more simple.
Why not make them 18sec and let them reach 20sec with the passives?

And we run Frostvault / Falkreath for an hour, like we usually do on live, so they had enough time to get used to it.
Back to live feels wrong too now..

And why not meet in the middle at 15sec, at least let us try on pts for a week.. Would work for Healing stuff too, i guess.

Personally, as a former Affliction Lock / Subrogue (until Legion announcement) i would rather see runtimes all over the place, but that would be counterproductive to the goal the devs are aiming for.

And why nerf 2H Maelstrom, i was really happy it got meta, it gives mobility, easy to apply your infused backbar beserker.

If i see the dot spreadsheet for the classes, dps numbers are all over the place.
I am aware that all dots can't be as efficient, since some give you some extra, but this?
That is not how to balance an MMO
Besides, makes 'build diversity' a meme.

If you need lower overall dps for server performance as well, just say so, half the dps, adjust encounters.
But then i wonder why you keep adding 'status effects' and whatnot to the game that all needs proc calculations among other things..

We are just running in circles here, we are getting nowhere.

I could write all day and night, but I'm just so disappointed (again)

Elsonso

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Not surprised zos is doubling down on their stance.
ZOS love to use live servers for actual "testing" instead of listening to PTS feedback. What even is the point of PTS when they always double down on their week 1 updates and ignore what PTS testers say about updates?

The number of people who visit the forum and play on PTS, combined, is still only a fraction of the overall game population. Representation is not guaranteed, either.

Still, the value of PTS in this situation is that it should act as a bellwether of what is coming. If the forum and PTS crowd are upset, they need to consider that the general population may also not like what is coming. When the general population players leave, they won't bother to say Goodbye! like we do in here. Doubling down because "Mom and Dad know best and the children should stay out of the affairs of the adults" may run their ship aground when they are just expecting the players to fall in line.

divnyi

ZOS: hey folks how's the concept - we are gonna screw with LA damage and DoT durations

Players: again? You already tested that before and didn't release because it was widely unpopular.

ZOS: ye ye change is scary, but hear me out, how about we also nerf class staples to the ground, and oh oakensoul too. And destroy HoTs tick rate. And introduce set that dispells buffs. And oh everyone loses 30% DPS. *whispers between themselves* did we annoy all the target audiences?

Players: my god what is this, please just cancel all these changes, they are horrible.

ZOS: ye look we hear your feedback, how about we just revert AoE dots (still nerf their damage) and call it a day?

Morvan

Just revert those changes guys, it will be much easier in the long run, people aren't mad just because they don't like changes, they're mad because it was tested and proven that hurting our DPS like that will make the game way LESS accessible to everyone, ESPECIALLY new players.

Your content was made with endgame DPS in mind, what you guys should do is to not let DPS increase every patch, make some sort of limit by not releasing stronger sets every patch, make new sets unique and varied, not just stronger. Those changes to dots, hots and weaving are just uncalled for.

The game has a lot of balance issues that really deserve your attention and instead of focusing on adressing that, those changes will only create more problems to solve, it's just tiresome and difficult to digest this at this point.

Necrotech_Master

Abadd wrote: »

Just revert those changes guys, it will be much easier in the long run, people aren't mad just because they don't like changes, they're mad because it was tested and proven that hurting our DPS like that will make the game way LESS accessible to everyone, ESPECIALLY new players.

Your content was made with endgame DPS in mind, what you guys should do is to not let DPS increase every patch, make some sort of limit by not releasing stronger sets every patch, make new sets unique and varied, not just stronger. Those changes to dots, hots and weaving are just uncalled for.

The game has a lot of balance issues that really deserve your attention and instead of focusing on adressing that, those changes will only create more problems to solve, it's just tiresome and difficult to digest this at this point.

yeah i think if they wanted to just nerf the top tier, they would have introduced more hard caps (like the crit dmg one), but for stats like crit chance, or further reduced the crit dmg cap

i could almost guarantee that most mid or low tier players are not doing any kind of crit builds (i personally dont even lean into a crit build, most of my dps have like 33-35% crit chance with 75-90% crit dmg including the base 50% crit dmg)

Sandman929

divnyi wrote: »

ZOS: hey folks how's the concept - we are gonna screw with LA damage and DoT durations

Players: again? You already tested that before and didn't release because it was widely unpopular.

ZOS: ye ye change is scary, but hear me out, how about we also nerf class staples to the ground, and oh oakensoul too. And destroy HoTs tick rate. And introduce set that dispells buffs. And oh everyone loses 30% DPS. *whispers between themselves* did we annoy all the target audiences?

Players: my god what is this, please just cancel all these changes, they are horrible.

ZOS: ye look we hear your feedback, how about we just revert AoE dots (still nerf their damage) and call it a day?

100% accuracy, but a bit anecdotal. 4/10, next time use a spreadsheet.

Jaimeh

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Small sidenote: For you folks who say "devs need to play the game" did you not see that Slashlurk @ZOS_RichLambert did that on stream for months? Would love to see it again to help prove this.

I would like to see the combat team tackle something like RG HM truthfully; solo arenas and runs with player streamers don't mean a lot in this context.

siddique

At the time of writing this comment, the original post by the dev has 1 "agree" and the post directly following it has 93 "agrees." Maybe take a hint ZOS? This isn't working.

The post with 93 agrees for reference:

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

But why do changes no one has asked for?

Minalan

While I am glad you’re addressing what’s left of the community here Gilliam, I really hope you listen.

How many patches in a row now with nightblade buffs? Stop playing the class for awhile, delete your toon. Make the game better.

Sorc getting nerfed into the dirt because of some poorly designed sets? Caltrops doing more DPS than atro? That’s incompetent. Roll up a magicka spec Sorc for a patch, and go into Cyrodiil. I know it’s not fun, but it’s not enjoyable for us either. Please fix it.

The whole light attack rework that nobody asked for? There has got to be a better option to make the game more accessible to new players.

Tyrion87

You clearly made the worst mistake a designer could do: fell in love with your own idea and thus our concerns and objections seem to fall on deaf ears...

Sandman929

Tyrion87 wrote: »

You clearly made the worst mistake a designer could do: fell in love with your own idea and thus our concerns and objections seem to fall on deaf ears...

Oh man, every dev team on this game and every update

anvilbert

This forum is meaningless if the dev's are going to totally ignore the player base who keep telling them repeatedly that they are making the biggest mistake ever in its gameplay. I could care less about pvp combat, what I care about is the pve part of the game. You keep changing and nerfing everyone for the sake of combat performance. Separate the two and leave pve alone. AGAIN IF YOU CONTINUE TO IGNNORE US THE PLAYERS THIS FORUM IS POINTLESS.

Cheyenne

As some others have said, changes based on numbers on a spreadsheet don't equal fun gameplay. It's too analytical. This pertains to a lot of aspects of the game. I imagine all these questions get asked internally like why do some people do dungeons, trials, or PVP and some don't, why do some people buy this and not that (in game and on the store), why do some people do housing and others don't, why do people do or don't do/use or don't use <insert any activity/skill/item/etc. in the game>? You can't get the "why" answers from those numbers alone.

So why do some people do things/run things/wear things/buy things? Maybe it's just fun to that person. Maybe it's for power or speed or looks. Maybe it's for the challenge. Maybe it's relaxing. Why don't people run this, buy this, or do this or that? Maybe it's because to that person, it isn't fun or it's too expensive or it's ugly or they don't enjoy that part of the game for their own personal reasons/too hard/too easy. Maybe they're tired of dealing with RNG. Again, you can't get those answers/reasons from a spreadsheet. You also can't force people into doing any of those things without backlash because at the end of the day, games should be FUN.

I also see mentioned above risk/reward and in the past have seen "players need to make a choice" as to why some changes are made. It's a game. People want to have fun. I keep using that word, but games generally equate with fun. Devs seem to think everyone finds being forced to sacrifice something for another thing fun. I'm sure many people do like that, having to pick one thing over the other, but I'm sure many others don't find that fun and just want to play how they want with skills they enjoy for whatever their personal reason.

I'm trying not to go on and on here, but seriously. Maybe coming up with some questions about various aspects of gameplay and actually polling your players (not on the forums but through emails tied to accounts) would go a long way in finding out what your players actually enjoy and why.

TLDR version (cause I like words):
Players aren't robots to be analyzed through spreadsheets and numbers regardless of what aspect of the game you're getting those numbers from. The "why" part of the equation is missing, and decisions shouldn't be made based on assumptions about numbers.

keto3000

The ZOS devs should be invited to be there, firsthand, when the big end-game guilds schedule their next test runs on PTS.

The lack of DIRECT communication between influential content creators, well-known guild leaders, progression teams and the ZOS Combat Team devs on these issues seems just.... amazingly weird!

If they can talk directly about geting torchbug prizes, codes and give-aways on stream, why not colaborate on first-hand PTS runs?

Then, the rest of the community would see a succinct and considered discussion, rather than disjointed 'talk past eachother' type of dialogue.

Cheer,
keto
#ESOfam since beta, 2013

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam

I agree with others here that we want to see the dev team (and only dev team) complete trifectas with these changes. Especially in the hardest dungeons and trials out there.

If you can do it then awesome the nay sayers are wrong and this update is great.

If you can't then maybe you should reconsider the whole thing.

Parsing on dummies is one thing. Being able to apply that to content is another.

Troodon80

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam

I agree with others here that we want to see the dev team (and only dev team) complete trifectas with these changes. Especially in the hardest dungeons and trials out there.

If you can do it then awesome the nay sayers are wrong and this update is great.

If you can't then maybe you should reconsider the whole thing.

Parsing on dummies is one thing. Being able to apply that to content is another.

You should probably clarify here that you'd like to see it done without it being on an internal build with dev commands; one-shots / buffed ability damage (like the damage from the last quest against Molag Bal), AI disabled, or god mode.

siddique

Half baked ideas ruining ESO since 2018.
Revert these combat changes, swallow your ego and accept you messed up.

Stop. Ruining. The. Game. Please.

EmilyElizabethESO

@ZOS_Gilliam can you share the 80 hours of testing you said you did?