Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

YandereGirlfriend

Some of those Warden changes better include reverting the timing changes made to Deep Fissure.

If it's just toggling with Advanced Species or Arctic Blast that is not going to cut it.

Vahndamme

This post leaves me with more questions than answers. Like is this how you guys react to the massive negative reaction? By ignoring it? This small thing is the only thing you guys is "the issue"?

I don't want to sound smarter than you but you guys really have to go back to the drawing board, talk to people who make a lot of content for this game and actually play the game day in day out. Talk to them and find out what could be improved or like what you could do to achieve your goal. Honestly at this point they seem to know it better than you guys do. . .

HeroOfNone

Afternoon,

I don't envy you Gilliam, trying to change an established system to be more accessible for newer players while also trying to curb power creep, all the while trying to balance the reactive combat. These change don't s do that and here's some specific examples:

- Molten Whip. this ability's damage is increased with each ardent flame ability used every 10 second up to 3 stacks. While we don't lose the weapon damage portion of seething fury, we're still losing that burst and that alternating cadence of "claws, engulfing flames, FoO, whip" that we have with the current setup. We can change it so whip can gain its own seething fury and releases at 3, but we're losing that alternating cadence of ability that made it interesting.
- Its more costly to early recast now - now with this change, if you're 10 seconds too early or more, its even more costly. Sticky DOTS and debuffs are the most likely to be reapplied early since they are harder to see and you might want to get something off on a boss before a mechanic.
- light attacks, despite having their damage reduced, are still highly required. Mostly to keep buffs like Kinrah's, Relequins, Tzogs, etc. going. This is a big one and these DOT changes might have an impact since you hopefully have less time on the backbar, but are we going to end up with longer delays when players are swapping?

Our goal here is to raise the floor and cap the ceiling, so let me offer some alternatives, starting with the DOT/Buffs/debuffs:
- double buff counters and keep the short DOT/debuff timers. this sill keep the cadence we have while softly giving some benefit to players
- Double stacking DOT and debuff durations on early recasts - Make it so a DOT or debuff's timer increases if you cast it early, for a max of double its standard duration. This will help players that cast their DOTs/debuffs too early in a rotation or have to refresh them in the middle of a boss mechanic.

As for the light attack issue, we can also tackle this a bit differently:
- Slowly lose stacks of Kinrah/Relequin/etc. rather than all at once. I give Iffy credit for introducing me to this idea. This would help a lot of players that aren't great at keeping their light attacks up.
- Give an option to change the light/attack queue priority in settings. One big issue I see in rotations are players that spam abilities and stop their own light attacks because they don't understand that light attacks take priority. Perfect weave helps eliminate that for some, but I think it needs to be a standard feature at this point
- adjust the tolerance of ability to light attacks inputs. Right now there is a small window where you can do a light attack and an ability and not get a delay on your next attack. Increase this window would help new players in general
- Give double stacks Kinrah/Relequin/etc. when doing a heavy attack. This would punish players less for using heavy attacks to get resources while using those sets.

Hopefully something positive can come from these changes, but I think they don't address the "raising the floor" issues in the right way.

Thanks for your time

neferpitou73

So now we have to keep track of different durations for different types of DoTs? Not sure how this is much of an improvement over live tbh

Please just scrap all these changes

SirLeeMinion

Thank you for your communication. It has really helped me decide how to spend my time in-game.

My big takeaway from this is that we're continuing down the same path, albeit at a slightly slower rate. Presumably, we'll continue in this direction until completion rates of difficult content and achievements are reduced to what the team believes to be an acceptable level.

MacRibs

Now we are talking.

However I fail to understand how "sticky" skills such as Lightning Form or even Artic Blast that require you to be almost close to melee range the target are considered safer skills with less risk than ranged skills like Wall of Elements or Spear Shards.

With Light Attacks ranged deal 10% less then melee because the risk is lower since you are from range with Dots seems to be the opposite principle.

I understand the idea but don't agree with the execution, classifying DoTs simply as sticky and static is a oversimplification of a more complex system, DoTs types vary between AOE (Wall of Elements) ground base DoTs, self AOE (Lightning Form) DoTs around player, Single Target (swarm) DoT on target and AOE Single Target (Carve) single target DoTs that have origin in AOE attacks that remain with targets after they leave to AOE range or after the AOE effect ends.

The problems with the new DoTs change as stated by @ZOS_Gilliam :

"Loss of reactive gameplay with ticking Area of Effect-based and the extension of durations on Area of Effect-based abilities actively harms their effectiveness since their power has been stretched out over a longer period, further increasing their risk of targets not staying in the area."

The solution:

Make Single target DoTs skills deal a small percentage of the damage on cast and have the DoT deal increased damage the longer it lasts.

Make AOE DoTs deal a higher percentage of the damage on cast and decreased DoT damage the longer it lasts.

Karma2Burn

I know we’re all concerned with many different aspects of the game but can we please make hundings a craftable set? I’m tired of farming dungeons for hundings rage set pieces and getting nothing.

TPishek

Karma2Burn wrote: »

I know we’re all concerned with many different aspects of the game but can we please make hundings a craftable set? I’m tired of farming dungeons for hundings rage set pieces and getting nothing.

It is a crafted set...?

anvilbert

What I see is your going to go ahead and implement a grossly negligent update with a few tweaks. No matter what the community tells you is happening, you already have mid level players leaving the game in droves. I am already shopping for a new as well as a lot of players I have talked with about this update.

Firstmep

MacRibs wrote: »

Now we are talking.

However I fail to understand how "sticky" skills such as Lightning Form or even Artic Blast that require you to be almost close to melee range the target are considered safer skills with less risk than ranged skills like Wall of Elements or Spear Shards.

With Light Attacks ranged deal 10% less then melee because the risk is lower since you are from range with Dots seems to be the opposite principle.

I understand the idea but don't agree with the execution, classifying DoTs simply as sticky and static is a oversimplification of a more complex system, DoTs types vary between AOE (Wall of Elements) ground base DoTs, self AOE (Lightning Form) DoTs around player, Single Target (swarm) DoT on target and AOE Single Target (Carve) single target DoTs that have origin in AOE attacks that remain with targets after they leave to AOE range or after the AOE effect ends.

The problems with the new DoTs change as stated by @ZOS_Gilliam :

"Loss of reactive gameplay with ticking Area of Effect-based and the extension of durations on Area of Effect-based abilities actively harms their effectiveness since their power has been stretched out over a longer period, further increasing their risk of targets not staying in the area."

The solution:

Make Single target DoTs skills deal a small percentage of the damage on cast and have the DoT deal increased damage the longer it lasts.

Make AOE DoTs deal a higher percentage of the damage on cast and decreased DoT damage the longer it lasts.

Actually templar already has that with spear shards and sun fire, I like the idea.

xaraan

I get that numbers/data from PTS is very helpful. But it also has the ability to be skewed. And certainly some anecdotal evidence isn't useful, but some of it can be more useful than skewed data if the player knows what they are talking about. So let's quit playing "find a reason to dismiss criticism" (A long standing zos problem) and fix the major list of issues.

I of course would love to see the detailed patch notes before getting more concerned. But at the base level, this post does raise a red flag. The best fix offered is to make dots more confusing? How does this help rotations, how does this help deal with weak, hardly need apply, dots?

I still see a patch that will leave most prog groups in the dust (players that aren't the tippidity top) but still care to learn and play the game fairly hardcore and regularly. I still see a patch with a huge gap between those that know how to mix/max and those that don't - which is why the LAs were supposedly given a flat rate. But which groups do you think will have almost 100% empower uptime and all have MA staves? So the lower tier groups will still be well behind, even if they learn to weave perfectly.

There are more concerns, but until I see the detailed notes, I'm not going to go deeper. I've seen a dozen better ideas for takes on the goals of this patch every day than what I've seen from zos so far. Maybe it's time to listen to your players.

HEIIMS

Pevey wrote: »

This is exactly what we expected. They still don't get it.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome.

You need to listen to vastly more anecdotal data and stop staring at the spreadsheets. Stop making every sticky dot in this game exactly the same, and every static dot exactly the same, and every spammable exactly the same.

We needed some indication that the combat team understood why we were upset. We got the opposite.

This. This. This.
How can you class, so called, "sticky DoTs" in the same category when some of them are by design - designed to do very different things. Again, sorc's Daedric Prey, DK's Burning Embers etc. these DoTs have some sort of secondary effect when they expire, having their duration prolonged harms them in reactive combat scenarios in both PvE and PvP. For example you need to quickly change your priority target, but you still have 10s left of DoT's duration (assuming they both last 20s+), if you recast them you lose all the remaining ticks of damage +the added effect at the end. I know you can recast Burning Embers early to get the healing tick, but if the ability has 20s+ duration recasting it for healing early would greatly hinder your DPS, while letting it run out will likely provide with a surplus heal that is not needed, not to mention it is very hard, or damn near impossible to plan 20s ahead so the healing is actually useful. This is just one example of why classifying abilities and adjusting them in bulk is a bad idea.
Also what about sticky AoE DoTs? Like Burning Talons, in this case such changes would be welcome, as of right now, this ability is very hard to sustain (4s duration is just too short for its cost). However, if its duration is increased to 20s this ability would become either useless (because it deals too little damage) or too overpowered (because it deals too much damage to several targets).
This is why you need to balance them individually, especially class related DoTs. What's the point of playing a different class when all your DoTs are more or less the same. Some class favor DoTs: DK, necro. Some favor burst instead of sustained damage: Sorc, NB. If this classification goes through the class identity will be watered down, albeit less than in the initial U35 changes, but still significantly enough. And nobody wants to play a game where the only difference between the classes is the color of your slotted abilities (warden - green, nb - red, sorc - blue etc.) Let classes have their own unique playstyles, especially when people pride themselves for "maining" a certain class or even a class spec (ice wardens, lightning sorcs etc.).
Overall, I am thankful that you're looking at our feedback, and considering implementing changes based on it, but I, and many other members of the community still feel like we're being "bargained with" rather than "listened to". I don't want to come across as ungrateful or spiteful. It just feels really weird that you'd rather scrap DoT related changes for ground based AoEs, but not single target-based ones.

d.schaerb16_ESO2

dear ZOS

just no. who thought this whole thing might be a good idea? it seems they dont play this game, they have no idea what they are doing.

Parasaurolophus

Okay, okay. But ZoS still plans to leave all dps heavily nerfed, right?

Krayl

games almost a decade old and here you are retooling core combat mechanics NO ONE ASKED FOR before you have even finished your promised changes to the hybridization updates. Just keep kicking the can down the road.

When do we actually get to PLAY this game instead of a 9-year long freaking beta test?

ZERO other MMO's mess with their combat every patch but ZOS can't seem to leave it well enough alone.

Dagoth_Rac

TPishek wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The irony in these changes is, they're going to work out to be even worse than the Week 1 changes.

This keeps the absolute crippling damage nerfs on new players and lower end DPS, while it lessens the nerfs on the mid to upper end players.

So, where the existing PTS build hits new players extraordinarily hard, while nerfing endgame DPS, this is going to slap endgame DPS on the wrist, and still cripple new players.

The whole revolving door routine only works if you have people coming in the door.

Half the classes also won't be able to sustain with how much more expensive they made the ground dots. I don't get why we are making ground dots more expensive than single target ones AGAIN when this was tried before and this same team reverted it due to the backlash.

One of the best things ZOS could do to make new and mid-tier players feel less intimidated by and more engaged in Veteran content would be a significant buff to base stam/mag recovery in dungeons/trials/arenas. Running out of resources is probably the least fun thing you can experience in PvE and it happens all the time to new and mid-tier players. It is likely that annoyance at constantly being unable to cast skills is one of the main culprits for players trying vet content and being so turned off they never go back.

Let players get better at PvE by getting better at rotations, by effectively mixing DoTs and spammables, by not undercasting or overcasting, by understanding and practicing mechanics, by coordinating with group mates, and so on. But just about all the tactics to practice to get better at DPS go out the window if you have no resources. Would sustain buffs be this "dumbing down the game"? Maybe. But top groups don't particularly worry about sustain so it may be dumbing down theorycrafting but it would not dumb down actual combat. All it would do is give mid-tier players a better feel for how smooth and dynamic and fun ESO combat is for top players.

There is a lot of talk about not ruining ESO's combat. That the energy and dynamic combat is a unique feature of ESO that makes it stand out. But that energy and dynamic combat is really only experienced by advanced, experienced players. For most new and mid-tier players the combat in ESO is anything but dynamic and fast moving and fun. It is sludgy and annoying.

GlassHalfFull

The team I have done vRG trial on finally understood the mechanics and had their DPS cross the bar and defeat the first boss. Despite dozens of wipes, we now were working on repeating this win, and work on the second boss. This was fun.

On PTS, our DPS is now 20% less (some 25% less), and well below that bar. We now will never be able to advance in this trial. We are now locked out of content we pay for.

Our trial team is now disbanded, so some may go to other teams, the rest gave up on this trial. Some have cancelled ESO+, one has left the game.

Explain to me in a spreadsheet how this is fun, and worth paying for?

Krayl

Players: "ZOS, the Hybridization patch is great, combat has never been so wide open and fun!"

ZOS: "[snip] LETS BLOW IT ALL UP"

casual players: "The combat system is hard for me to compete with all the dots and timers and weaving"

ZOS: "GOOD POINT LETS NERF EVERYONE INCLUDING YOU. [snip] NOW WE ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU LONG TIMERS BUT OF VARYING LENGTHS HAHA GOOD LUCK HAHAHAH"

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Karma2Burn

Here it is 2022 and cat banker still doesn’t proc necropotence. Thanks ZOS.

Finedaible

@ZOS_Gilliam What is the team's plan concerning enchantments, the infused trait, and Torug's Pact?

Sun7dance

In my opinion, we should stop thinking that ZOS really want to help newbies.
I'm pretty sure they have two other goals, but unfortunately they don't communicate that well.
The first would be performance.....what a surprise!
Light Attacks are probably the most casted attacks and scale with pretty much everything until now. ZOS hope for a performance boost here if there are only fixed values without scaling.
The second is that they just want to take damage out of the game so they can create themselves a base again to be able to offer players progress again.
We had the same story with Morrorwind when ZOS nerfed the sustain so hardcore and also with the critical nerf.
We got Clockwork Bufffood and for crit. damage we got a buffed charge trait for a better uptime of minor brittle, Watkilt, a new craftable Set and these Shalidor Shoulders.

ZOS motto seems to be "nerfing to create progress again!".
That's actually no surprise, coz we all know this kind of business.

It's just a shame that they're really touching the combat system now. This is really a massive move!
Last time they tried something simular it was about cast times for shields.
Good thing they didn't pull it off then.

ZOS, plz listen....ESO needs its dynamic combat system!
There are just things that you shouldn't change!

Aka_

I'm glad you're all at least hearing us, but I don't think we're being listened to.

First, why does it feel like ZoS seems completely out of touch with what we want? It's clear no one is happy with what is happening. This is reminiscent of another MMO, RuneScape, which developers did not respond in an equal tone to the responses of their base. It was terrible for the whole health of the game.

Why are we still experiencing such sweeping changes SO often? This isn't normal for an MMO that is so old!

Why is ZoS obsessed with homogenizing skills across different classes? By saying you want a hybridized system that you assumed would increase build diversity, you ironically got rid of a lot of that this year.

Where are you guys really taking this game? I don't know anyone who can see it. Your communication and goals are not clear. This game is almost a decade old. With the foundation in place, I thought there would be more creativity with where it is, not... This... Because you've had a system that's been humming along and now all of a sudden you're making sweeping changes without addressing where content created for the original systems, methods, etc and numbers is going to change, if at all.

Finally, the PTS IS meant to be a testing server, for bugs, balance, and feedback. It's NOT been consistent on whether these actually are fixed by the time they are brought live. Where is communication falling apart here? It needs to be addressed, lest you continue to put out items like Oakensoul or Sithis or anything like that which will be completely nerfed not even months later. It's not a healthy look.

Karma2Burn

I think we’re all ignoring the elephant in the room as far as pvp goes. I play mostly DC and EP but I have friends on AD that would like to play battlegrounds like the rest of us but Zos forces the AD players to fight other players which isn’t really fair to the AD faction.

Why can’t Zos add an AD battlegrounds mode that is 12 players versus a door? I think we’re all wondering why the game still to this day ignores 1/3rd of the pvp population. Very sad.

WrathOfInnos

Thanks for the update, that's certainly and improvement, but I still see 3 issues with long sticky DoTs.

1. They remain useless in short encounters like trash packs, especially in overland. Mainly a problem for AoE sticky DoTs like Engulfing Flames, which still does poor damage against anything that dies within ~10s.

2. Some bosses that move also cleanse all of their sticky DoTs, such as ZMaja or the Haj Mota on Dreadsail Reef. Long durations don't mean anything if the effect is removed every time the boss moves.

3. Many bosses have immunity phases instead of movement. Sticky DoTs will still have issues when they get cut off by shields (Olms) or flying away (all bosses in Sunspire as well as some dungeons).

Krayl

remember when the game got overhauled in the Hyrbidization patch many months ago

. . . and in that time ZOS hasn't been able to give us hyrbid pots or weapon / spell damage jewelry glyphs

but we do have a card game

. . .

"priorities".

Matthew_Galvanus

I knew this would happen. they do this with every single time without fail. They don't talk to us, they talk at us and expect us to be grateful for them rubbing salt in our wounds. Guess i'm putting this game down for good because i just don't see how this game will continue on when their devs do whatever the heck they want and blatantly ignore player feedback.

Sandman929

Krayl wrote: »

remember when the game got overhauled in the Hyrbidization patch many months ago

. . . and in that time ZOS hasn't been able to give us hyrbid pots or weapon / spell damage jewelry glyphs

but we do have a card game

. . .

"priorities".

Let's not get bogged down in the details. It's always the poorly thought out idea that trumps the repercussions...those can be addressed in a later update when everything changes again.

Gythral

Besr solution is to ditch the whole patch, and revisit it in 10-12yrs (when everyone has moved on), 'cos as it is alot will have moved on in 10-12 weeks! (and the changes suggested chasnge nothing about that)

wolfsilver00

Honestly, I just don't understand how you can go so wrong on so many *** levels.. Some points:

1) "We want stuff to have personality.." Then you immediately force every player who wants to do more DPS into static AoE. While I get that you are trying to make a difference between abilities, it just feels like you have no clue at all why we use "sticky"DoTs.. Because they are fun, they give a buff that we like, we enjoy putting them on our rotation or we like something about them (im not even gonna touch the PvP aspect of this patch cause at this point, you just *** up PvP, thats it, PvP has been an afterthought for so long but the only good thing you did was nerf Oakensoul, but by doing so you *** EVERY NEW PLAYER THAT USED IT, of course with the excuse of helping them.. You just had to replace some buffs with *** aegis and slayer dudes, you literally have 2 PvE specific buffs and you could not come up with such an incredibly easy solution to the problem, I applaud that for once you thought about PvP (and lets be *** clear here, you pushed Oakensoul in its current state even tho EVERYONE told you it would *** up PvP, and you *** did it [snip] just disable mythics in pvp [snip], you know its p2w, i know it, everybody knows it, mythics in pvp are NOT HEALTHY), but this is not the way to help PvP and definitely is not helping new players.

2) Nothing is being said about HoTs. WE NEED YOU TO TELL US YOU ARE NOT DESTROYING HEALERS, PLEASE.

3) You keep asking us for data, Id love it if you shown ANY of that data to us, explain or justify your decisions.. Because at this point the whole community thinks you dont play your game, and lets be honest, when the devs are the ones wiping on trash mobs, then we have a reason to believe you dont play the game. Do anything, a stream, something.. I dont give a *** about the form, just please show us your methodology, your decision making progress, because we dont understand how you can just *** up this bad, so show us and MAYBE we can solve the issue together, as a team.

4) again with the personality and choice, but I need to reiterate.. Class abilities are usually bad compared to some non class abilities, thats no choice.. Maybe NERF the damage on non class abilities, but leave class abilities as they are, with the current potency, THAT WILL GIVE US MORE CHOICE AND NOT FORCE US INTO WALL AND BALL FOR EVERY. SINGLE. ***. BUILD.

5) Stop nerfing class abilities [snip]

6) You are trying to lower our dps, because every single patch and expansion you need to raise the bar with some new sets and make them "good" so they are used. Thats called power creep. It happens in every game of this sort but with a game like this, with One Tamriel, this is just.. By design going to happen. So how do you solve it? STOP MAKING SETS THAT RAISE DAMAGE. You just made orders wrath right? That *** is INSANE. You made 80% of the other sets just.. useless. A craftable that can defeat most other sets used in DPS is just bad.. Seriously, just stop putting out sets that go "boom".. I know you have to make updates and expansions interesting.. Why not dedicate some time to make sets with interesting mechanics instead of going for higher *** numbers? You talk about choice, then you destroy the whole *** roster with an easily craftable, easily sellable set. Start nerfing sets instead of abilities, nerf only non class abilities, give us more abilities, interesting abilities, and if sets come out, make them do something interesting.. Maybe start putting out class specific sets, give us some trial progression by means of class specific sets that CHANGE how abilities work, giving us more room to play with while keeping the same dps ceiling so we are not forced into the same *** build with the same sets.. I give an example, bahseis is a good set mechanic wise, it gives a lot of damage for some risk and technical ability, or you can just go with False God and get amazing sustain and just spam *** forever.. Give us more of that, less of +whatever stat.

To finish: The top end players dont really mind that they are losing dps, they mind that they are losing it by making the game more boring, more spammy, less unique.. And your answer is to just separate "stickies" from "statics".. Yet you leave them the same overall.. Why not make some statics dot for less time but give a buff that others dont give, you trade sustain for the buff but you need to put it more often, NOW YOU GOT CHOICE, because they both do the same damage, but it depends on your skill and playstyle which one you choose.. and if you choose the one that requires skill, then you should be gifted with some more damage.. BECAUSE SKILL IS GOOD.. Why do you want to punish players for being good at the game? Its *** insane!

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

VaranisArano

If you want more players progressing into Vet content and beyond into hard modes, etc. you've got to buff players who are doing 15-75k DPS, not nerf them. If you don't want to just sell them power in the next shiny new Mythic item (that naturally gets nerfed the next update), then maybe consider teaching those players how to play?

Of course, writing a tutorial might require you to stop changing up how combat works every three to six months, so I can see where that might be a bridge too far...

Truth is, I'm afraid I'm a bit lost as to how this patch is supposed to help more players get into Vet content, even though that was a stated goal on ESO Live. I'd be very interested to get an after-action analysis in a couple months to see if the numbers actually reflect what the Devs are hoping for.