U35 Combat Changes, vSS hm and how it affects me personally as a mid-tier player

RMW

Hey,
this is my first post on the forum and normally I wouldn't care too much about PTS changes. Things get nerfed, the same things get buffed again, new PvP sets etc. Normally I just change my setups and adapt.

This time though I felt the need to express my concerns about the new changes.



I'm a mid-tier player. I'm not really casual but I'm definitely not an endgame player. My friends and I play dungeons and trials and sometimes we PvP a bit but we never go for score-pushing or worlds first etc.. We just look for titles, colors, and other rewards and try to do the content to get it. Especially for achievements that are tied to housing stuff, the dragons from vSS hm are amazing and we had a lot of fun decorating.



Atm we're proging GS. We managed to do vSS hm a couple of weeks ago and are now trying to die less and to be faster so we can try to go after the trifecta and get the mount. While it looks like it's gonna take a bit of time we are confident we can pull it off with enough time. Our vSS hm runs are getting better and we can now do them with not too many wipes.

Our raid lead was reading a bit about the upcoming changed and suggested we try out vSS hm and see how different it is on PTS before we're all gonna lose our minds over it. Maybe it is a bad patch, maybe it is not too bad and we can simply adjust and go after GS again. So our raid lead thought it would be important to test it out.

So we tried vSS hm yesterday and... it didn't go well. All of a sudden we had trouble doing enough DPS to the boss and to the mobs and therefore our tank and our healers were struggling to keep us alive. It took so much longer to kill stuff that I'm not sure we can do a speed run now.

So DPS was down. Okay, maybe we can adjust? But then again, we don't know how atm. Again, we're not endgamers. We don't know all the insides and outside of the game, you can't wake us in the middle of the night and ask us what sets does [xxx] and expect an answer. We need a bit of help from endgamers and people who know the game better than us. Ideas so we can look for new sets or skills or whatever. And I have no problem asking for help. But now it looks like we get quite a few changes so that we can't just tweak some stuff here and there and then hit the boss with the same DPS we did before. And this is disheartening. When you managed to do a trial hm and now it looks like you can't? That is not fun. And ESO is not our job, we don't want to relearn everything from scratch so we can do the same content we did before. It simply is not fun. And there is also no say that we're gonna do the same damage before the next patch hits and we have to do everything all over again.

The other thing we noticed was healing. Our healers were now struggling to keep us alive with the HoT changes. The damage the boss and the mobs were doing were the same, but healing was low and slow with the same set up so that we had problems healing the ice tomb and therefore wiping everyone.

Also with the DPS down we had problems doing the portals in time. In the end we couldn't finish vSS hm anymore and called it a day. Needless to say our prog group is now feeling down after this encounter.



Lokkestiiz – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Ice Tombs; loosing too much health and having problems healing it up so we don't explode. We changed tactics, two healers healing the person up and tank using selfish sets but fight took a lot longer and was less enjoyable
Pulse Damage; had problems healing this as well, in the end we had 2 DDs using Barrier and that helped a lot

Yolnahkriin – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Fight took a lot longer than it did on live
Healing was a bit of an issue again, but not as bad as the first boss, explosions were harder to heal

Nahviintaas – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Healing was again one our biggest problems with the 2 sec HoT duration, our healers which are pretty good for our grp normally on live now struggled hard to keep us alive, these changes were the most brutal for them
Our Off-Tank also had to use more selfish sets so the statue wouldn't knock him out but it went better than we expected, tanks were doing okay-ish in all fights
Downstairs was always a wipe, we couldn't finish the miniboss in 90 seconds before he killed us, our damage which was high enough in live is now not high enough for this encounter anymore
General damage wasn't high enough anymore and now we struggle with the last boss we could beat normally on live

(And we also noticed that the longer the fight took the worse the instance seemed to get? Performance wise it seemed like the instance was degenerating.)



So from my perspective as a mid-tier player, I dislike the changes. A lot.

I get what you're trying to do and I agree that more casual players need more accessibility to do hard dungeons and trials. Heck, even us mid-tiers would need that. But whatever this patch is... it's not doing that.

We all want more people joining raids and dungeons. Our group would love to see more faces and maybe have a second group running. It would make our day if the people we like and that play with us would get awesome rewards. Imagine more people getting skins or colors or even mounts. That would be awesome! But now it just seems like some peeps like us will just be left behind.

When you talked about accessibility I thought something along the lines of help people get groups or help them make build or whatever. Maybe new sets that helped other playstyles.

Project Vitality from @Nefas for example was a very good idea, I had some good runs with people (also did one of the newer trials for the first time) and had two people who had Godslayer explain to me what our group could do get there. Again, I don't know the ins and outs of the game so people taking the time to explain to me how we could make things better was pretty great.

What I would've loved to see would be the devs and/or the combat team maybe explain things. Like either have streams of explanation videos of some stuff. Like doing a GS/PB/SB run and explain mechanics, explain what DPS/Healing/Tankiness is needed, give some set recommendations (that are ofc not limited to that), maybe make a video explaining how to make your own rotation or how to make your own build. Maybe ideas what to do when you are struggling with certain things.

Maybe find a way to make finding a group easier. Again, Project Vitality makes finding a trial grp easier. Idk if a trial grp finder is the way but other peeps will maybe have some ideas.

I get that the damage can't go up forever. Imagine seeing @skinnycheeks parsing and he just does like a million damage per second (which would be funny tbh). But at the same time reducing damage (and healing which was the hardest change for us) to the point that old content we managed to do now so hard that we can't beat the last boss does not seem like making the game more accessible. Still think Oakensoul was a very good way to help people close the gap (though I agree it needed some adjustments in PvP). One of our raiders has a muscle disease that makes it difficult for him to push buttons, doing something that is 'too' repeatable makes his muscle clench. His build got gutted pretty bad and we noticed that 'spammable' builds were you put down your dots and only use your spammable were doing a lot of more damage. He tried it and his muscles in his hands clenched and he had problems playing with us. Atm we're looking to find another build for him that would work with the PTS changes but again we are not the super experienced players so it's gonna take some time. And this mate deserves the achievement so much because he put so much effort into our runs!

Our grp will not quit the game atm, we're gonna try to get our GS until the next update and keep a look at the upcoming patch notes. But also if it looks like this version or at least some capacity of this version makes it to live we're gonna have a break from the game. Seeing how many combat changes we had in the past I'm pretty sure we will have some kind of power creep coming again and therefore make it easier for us to do the content. It always happens. But since this patch looks like it's not gonna be fun we're not keen of pushing content for 3 months so that the combat gets changed yet again.

Also what about the other grp content like vKA hm, vRG hm and vDSR hm? Since they are new they tend to be a lot harder than the older content. And even older content like vSO hm could become a lot harder with the poison phase.

Also maybe they should not do the giant changes in one go. Maybe try LA/HA changes first and then see how it goes, maybe then DoT changes, then class changes. These big changes also make it hard to see what we have to optimize again. If it were only LA/HA for example we could see how much it affects us and then adjust. Now with everything it just seems like a hot mess.

I really hope that ZOS finds a way to balance things out and make content more accessible for all players (maybe even add a colorblind mode for people like me). We need new and more people doing trials and dungeons but maybe not at the cost of mid-tier players like our GS group.

Cheers to all and thank you @ZOS_Kevin for keeping an eye on our feedback.




P.S. This is just my personal view as a mid-tier player and this does not mean I'm right about these things. After testing in week 1 and 2 this is just how our grp perceives this and no one of us wants to paint the game in a super bad way. We love ESO that is why I thought it would be important to voice my opinion on this. I want this game to succeed in every way and that it stays around for a long time but it also means that if I (or another grp of players) think these changes will be bad for the game... we have to voice our opinion. If you are a casual player or a mid-tier like me or even one of the best players there is... I also want to hear your opinion. Maybe we can all find a common ground even if we disagree on these changes to ESO can stay the amazing game it is.

Also english is not my native language so bear with me.
Thank you for readinf and keep testing!

Susinok1

My group of friends are in the same situation as you. We love to go through vet DLC dungeons, and often we PuG and get first time people going through with us. We've helped many inexperienced players get their first vet clear of DLC content. We'll stop to explain mechanics and get them their bust.

With the upcoming changes, my heals won't get the less experienced players through the harder content. The group DPS will be much lower and we'll struggle or even fail to clear what we've been able to do before.

The top tier players will still score push, will still figure out how to clear content, if they stick around that is. Many of my raid friends left a while ago with the hybridization and achievement changes. The less experienced players and mid tier like me are going to have a more difficult time progressing. None of these changes make things easier for anybody. Taking a sledgehammer approach is not the way.

JustAGoodPlayer

We get nerf after nerf from patch to patch to for last 3 years. We are HA players group. So we stop do trials a year ago and some of us even play other games some time.

So i understand your feelingth.

I do not think that current live was nerfee, but patch ago CP was nerfed so players already lose some DPS. (About 5-10%)

On current PTS DD lose about 25-30% from current live.

Player lose about 10% on dummy and dummy was buffed about 15-20%

fizl101

First of all congrats on what you have achieved so far! I've managed VSS HM with a prog group i am in and i personally think its a brilliant achievement (and love my furnishings). BTW I think you are very much more than mid tier if you are completing DLC HM and working on trifectas

My fear of what will happen with this patch, is what you have described above. I am very nervous that next patch trials we worked to complete will be beyond our reach, let alone progging to the next stage.

I am crossing my fingers that next week we will see some significant changes that mean our hard work isn't undone

JustAGoodPlayer

HMs will be possible to pass even if players DPS will be about 35 k on 3kk dummy. (Not including last boss portal, there needs 3 good DD)

But trifecta will be out of reach for a lot of groups with such change.

Some trifectas may be will not be possible to pass for any group.

vMOL and same trials do not needs a lot of damage.

But hms of vRG and new trials ? I think they already was calculated for DPS of players before nerfs and than was 2 big dps nerfs.

shadyjane62

Thank you for your post. It is inspiring to me as I am disabled. My Templar was completely gutted and I have to do to another game if this makes it. I have already re-downloaded WoW (horrors!) and am doing well enuf but I played WoW for over 10 years total in two stints and cannot believe I have to go back to have a decent experience. But go back I will rather than put up with this constant change crap.

This game was an 8 year investment for me. I always subbed for a year and loved it.

But no more changes. I'm still smarting from the AWA debacle and am still wearing the same armor I changed into for the no proc nonsense.

I admire anybody willing to tuff this patch out but not me, not again.

Wolfkeks

Good post!

And congrats on vSS hm!

Our groups is in the same boat as you, we're trying to prog GS with one group and vKA hm with the other and I fear that with the upcoming changes that we will either have problems completing them or that our groups will just fall apart.

I really hope that we can find better ways to help people get into endgame without making it impossible for the non 'tippy toppy' players like us.

Kudos to your post!

MostlyJustCats

Your group is exactly the situation my guild (and a lot of guilds we do runs with) is in. That's why I've described these changes as a solution in search of a problem. The soft power creep that's developed primarily by more people learning the combat mechanics has done wonders for accessibility and participation.

You're not mid-tier if you're doing vSS, but the patch is more than likely gonna put you there - and with a heavy thud. There's no real clear path forward for gaining the damage back. I parse 100k on live and dropped to 75k on the buffed dummy. I was able to get it back to 90k with a little bit of work and getting real sweaty, but again, on the buffed dummy (and as a nightblade that avoided all the other class-specific nerfs).

People have been complaining about LA weaving and rotation management since the game came out. And then they learn how to do it. It's what makes ESO's combat unique in the MMO space and is vital to the horizontal progression of the game design. I play ESO because I don't want to park myself next to a target, piano roll my skills, and wait for the mob to die based on whether my gear is the best or not like in a typical MMO - I have to play. I have to kill it. It's frantic, fast paced, demands some twitch muscle skills and yes, is a bit wonky and looks weird as it wasn't originally intended. But it's unique and for the most part, it's fun.

I think a better change would be to scrap the current animations and just make some that just look better when they're cancelled at the right time, and look fine if they're left to completion. Then just add an instanced dummy in a house in the major cities with a short tutorial. Light attack, immediately hit a skill, and just try to do that every actual second. Here, practice. Integrate some of the combat detail reporting that cmx provides (they've done the work for you!) and leave it be.

Who cares if .01% of the player population can blow up the content?

prof_doom

MostlyJustCats wrote: »

People have been complaining about LA weaving and rotation management since the game came out. And then they learn how to do it. It's what makes ESO's combat unique in the MMO space and is vital to the horizontal progression of the game design.

I don't remember where I saw it, but I remember someone saying that the time to remove LA weaving was about 8 years ago, when they first "accidentally" introduced it. At this point, it's a part of the game, and to remove it would mean having to completely redo how combat works.

SerafinaWaterstar

This should be on the forum Main Page as well as is a calm well-written dissection of how the proposed changes will affect mid-tier players (which I fall into too!).

It’s rather depressing.

JustAGoodPlayer

LA is in game. Some one like it / some one not.

Whyle alternate exists - I am OK with it.

People who like LA + skill = You like it and ask to make how is better for YOU !

Others DO NOT LIKE it, it is not like they can not.

It is like eat some food you like or do not.

If you like some bananas and tell others how is it better to eat, others already may be have allergy on it or lose appetete only from hearing about it.

ZOS_Kevin

@RMW First, thanks for taking the time to come to the forums and post for the first time. Appreciate it. Thanks for the breakdown of your constructive feedback here. Appreciate how you broke it down and the perspective it's coming from as a mid-tier player.

I am passing this on to our teams now to make sure they see this as well, but wanted to make a point of highlight how this feedback was constructed. Thanks again for coming to post your feedback.

ectoplasmicninja

MostlyJustCats wrote: »

snip

I totally agree with this. I enjoy the fast, active, dynamic pace of ESO's combat. I also like that it's possible to change a few things and run a heavy attack build for some content on days when my hands are aching (I have some nerve issues and half my right hand goes numb sometimes) to make it less strenuous. I don't use Oakensoul myself, but it seems like it would really help with that. But not post nerf.

Make Oakensoul give minor buffs with Battle Spirit, and major otherwise. Noone is complaining that it's OP in PvE content, because it isn't. The buffs in no way outweigh the benefit of having a second bar. It's a crutch for people who have trouble walking, as it were - and there's nothing wrong with that because having the option to walk is good.

Weaving is part of the game. It's part of what makes it different. It helps increase DPS by virtue not just of the direct damage of light attacks but the increased enchant or poison procs, the increased ult gen, etc. Decreasing the damage of light attacks by itself would be fine, and would cut high end DPS without overly punishing lower tier players who have a much lower ratio of light attacks. This huge comprehensive overhaul just seems uncalled for.

Invest in teaching players how to play. Give the game an extended or advanced tutorial where weaving is explained, animation cancelling is touched on, maybe introduce a combat metronome for the tutorial that will help players understand the rhythm they're aiming for. Explain the importance of enchantments and the ult gen of light attacks. If you hand hold a little bit in the beginning, people will grasp more of the basics and be in a better position to understand the complexity later on.

I started on a heavy attack sorc (not a recommended build, just how noob me initially approached combat) and switching to magblade later on made combat feel so different. Everything was fast and fluid, firing off those bow procs, getting expedition from path - it was a whole new world, and I loved the feel of it.

And let me tell you, I was not a good player. It took me probably a year of gameplay before I even used my second bar and almost another year before I could bar swap fluidly and actually use all my skills. I am still not really a good player. But I figured it out. I got used to it. Having guildmates and friends who were much more skilled than me give me advice and explain stuff was priceless, but I wish I had been able to glean it from the game itself.

If I'm the kind of player they're trying to reach and help with this update, it's missing the mark. Combat now feels slow and awkward, the new jabs animation is off-putting, and I don't want to play like that. Content that is barely accessible to me now will be less accessible, not more. If this overhaul really is supposed to actually help me, I'd love to see an explanation as to how.

Eclipse318

"One of our raiders has a muscle disease that makes it difficult for him to push buttons, doing something that is 'too' repeatable makes his muscle clench. His build got gutted pretty bad and we noticed that 'spammable' builds were you put down your dots and only use your spammable were doing a lot of more damage. He tried it and his muscles in his hands clenched and he had problems playing with us. Atm we're looking to find another build for him that would work with the PTS changes but again we are not the super experienced players so it's gonna take some time. And this mate deserves the achievement so much because he put so much effort into our runs!"

Zos please please please PLEASE give more thought to your physically challenged players. PLEASE.

code65536

It's hard to get 12 people together to go test this stuff on PTS, so thank you for taking the time to do that.

I feel like this is the kind of testing that ZOS should have done themselves internally, prior to even announcing the PTS. These kinds of glaringly obvious balance issues should've been tested and accounted for before PTS, and player testing should only serve as a confirmation of that things are still balanced.

Instead, we hear about how they parsed on dummies, rather than testing actual content.

Erissime

I keep reading all sorts of complaints about the upcoming changes, and of a truth I am probably below mid-tier player when I say that I do not go on pts to test things, I do not have a constant group with which to constantly do trials and dungeons, but overall I am pleased with my mid-tier performance for the most part. I have been part of groups for such like content, both organized and doing progs, as well as those known as "pugs".

The one thing which never stoped bewildering me to this day are the employed tactics for the defeating of these bosses. I have been explained mechanics, I saw them first hand, I have even been part of some hm (succeful) progs, and I keep watching a constant trend: nobody moves. There is this incredibly strange tactic - reminder of older games - in which everybody willingly sits in pools of pouring damage from bosses, relying on the healers to do all the job, while the dps does only that - damage (hence the incredibly high numbers of dps required by end-game groups) - in a game in which mobility is kind of the juice of all things.

Now I cannot have any say on the upcoming changes - due to my lack of experience with it all - but I can say that I surely hope they will bring on new and more interesting tactics of defeating these bosses and content - because I personally am bored to see the same things over and over - delivered by the same aknowledged players (likely with experiences from older games) proposing that same static way of doing things, for - and this I can say first hand - much can be achieved through movement - a decidedly ignored aspect by all pve players.

On another note - yes, I know all the well-to-do gamers will tell me I'm stupid and unable to understand what everybody seems to fall in line with so easily. But consider it for a bit - what if... regardless of the dps nrs one pulls, things can still be achieved, should different tactics be employed in the end?

Disclaimer: "nobody moves" may be a tad too harsh of an expression. People do move eventually, if the content itself forces it on them - but the general trend remains one of static fights, if players can so choose.

prof_doom

Erissime wrote: »

\
and I keep watching a constant trend: nobody moves.

If you're running around like a headless chicken, the healers will not be able to target you, nor should they prioritize you over the other 10 people who did stay close to the boss like they were asked to.

There are times you do just have to stand in damage and heal/block/shield through it. Again, if you're not standing in the group, you're probably not getting healed.

Off the top of my head:

• Starfall in Hel Ra Citadel
• Last boss in Halls of Fabrication
• Last boss in dreadsail reef
• pretty much every boss in Rockgrove
• last boss in Atherian archive (especially HM)

Honestly, there aren't that many MMOs that I can think of where the boss fights aren't mostly about keeping relative positions, staying in range of the healers, and only moving when you need to for mechanics.

JustAGoodPlayer

Ok it looks like we were may be listened. Hooe some thing will change for good. At least some day.

Erissime wrote: »

I keep reading all sorts of complaints about the upcoming changes, and of a truth I am probably below mid-tier player when I say that I do not go on pts to test things, I do not have a constant group with which to constantly do trials and dungeons, but overall I am pleased with my mid-tier performance for the most part. I have been part of groups for such like content, both organized and doing progs, as well as those known as "pugs".

The one thing which never stoped bewildering me to this day are the employed tactics for the defeating of these bosses. I have been explained mechanics, I saw them first hand, I have even been part of some hm (succeful) progs, and I keep watching a constant trend: nobody moves. There is this incredibly strange tactic - reminder of older games - in which everybody willingly sits in pools of pouring damage from bosses, relying on the healers to do all the job, while the dps does only that - damage (hence the incredibly high numbers of dps required by end-game groups) - in a game in which mobility is kind of the juice of all things.

Now I cannot have any say on the upcoming changes - due to my lack of experience with it all - but I can say that I surely hope they will bring on new and more interesting tactics of defeating these bosses and content - because I personally am bored to see the same things over and over - delivered by the same aknowledged players (likely with experiences from older games) proposing that same static way of doing things, for - and this I can say first hand - much can be achieved through movement - a decidedly ignored aspect by all pve players.

On another note - yes, I know all the well-to-do gamers will tell me I'm stupid and unable to understand what everybody seems to fall in line with so easily. But consider it for a bit - what if... regardless of the dps nrs one pulls, things can still be achieved, should different tactics be employed in the end?

Disclaimer: "nobody moves" may be a tad too harsh of an expression. People do move eventually, if the content itself forces it on them - but the general trend remains one of static fights, if players can so choose.

One of tacticks ("META") is a skip fight.

If players skip fight, a lot of them can not fight. So not expect from them any such tacticks.

In TESO other game play style is not represented to much.

HA groups was focused on it, but 3+ years of constant nerfs based on opinion of low skilled "meta" players - make a lot of such players desband groups or leave.

1 good HA player can solo vet DLC dunguans, 3 such players can pas some normal and vet trials. So it was no need to have big DPS for other party members. To learn such people takes a lot of time.

So when each update you can be just deleted from the game by developers changes, a lot of such players just stop do anything.

And you see what you see

So better find good friends and play with them. If developers will not kill the game some day you will pass with them.

Other way you even will not need

Erissime

prof_doom wrote: »

Erissime wrote: »

\
and I keep watching a constant trend: nobody moves.

If you're running around like a headless chicken, the healers will not be able to target you, nor should they prioritize you over the other 10 people who did stay close to the boss like they were asked to.

There are times you do just have to stand in damage and heal/block/shield through it. Again, if you're not standing in the group, you're probably not getting healed.

Off the top of my head:

• Starfall in Hel Ra Citadel
• Last boss in Halls of Fabrication
• Last boss in dreadsail reef
• pretty much every boss in Rockgrove
• last boss in Atherian archive (especially HM)

Honestly, there aren't that many MMOs that I can think of where the boss fights aren't mostly about keeping relative positions, staying in range of the healers, and only moving when you need to for mechanics.

That is not what I said. I know how to play in groups and I stay well enough among their numbers to both either succeed or die while at it - together. My comment was about most content, for regardless of it, most groups just sit in damage relying on healers entirely. True enough I Have made my share of movement slightly out of it to avoid things, and lived to do more damage further on - and have always wondered why do people do not do it as well, only to hear those in the know of things ( raid leaders) inssist on lack of movement. I get that it is not easy to get a whole number of 8 or 10 people to move around in sync when needed - but then nothing about this content is easy anyway.

anvilbert

Well said , I could solo most Craglorn ,group events when I couldn't find a group before the cp 3600 changes. I have not been able to reach that again since the change I did a parse last night and using a chart on time that a guild member shared because target dummies are glitched, My dps is down 7 to 10k with the recent cp changes depending on how tired my hands are. With up35 changes I'm going to loose anywhere from 30k to 40k more dps which is going to put me at 20k to 30k dps. I will no longer be able to run the content with my guild mates that I have been running. I love this game but these changes will make mid level and elites alike walk away. I have also made a post on this before as well, good luck players, I'm a 60 yr old disabled person myself and I didn't get an acknowledging reply like yourself.

ClevaTreva

'Mid-tier' shuffler here too.

I gave up chasing the build metas a few months back and left, despondent, for a short while. Chasing builds is boring and it killed a lot of the game for me as I was spending more time fannying around re-building characters than actually running the content. Why don't ZoS just make NPCs/Bosses/Dungeons/Trials harder or more complex, rather than dicking around with minutiae which saps the fun out of things?

If I'll now have to re-learn combat too, then I'm out for good.

JustAGoodPlayer

Current target dummy can be broken now. It shows more DPS before now i heared it show less ))) (not real value)

ClevaTreva

PS: I'm one of those 'weird' players into housing, 'shiny things' and the like - and I've spent hundreds of pounds on this game. My guess is with all this nonsense you'll just drive the spendy ones like me away.

Your move.

Cyber10

RMW wrote: »

Hey,
this is my first post on the forum and normally I wouldn't care too much about PTS changes. Things get nerfed, the same things get buffed again, new PvP sets etc. Normally I just change my setups and adapt.

This time though I felt the need to express my concerns about the new changes.



I'm a mid-tier player. I'm not really casual but I'm definitely not an endgame player. My friends and I play dungeons and trials and sometimes we PvP a bit but we never go for score-pushing or worlds first etc.. We just look for titles, colors, and other rewards and try to do the content to get it. Especially for achievements that are tied to housing stuff, the dragons from vSS hm are amazing and we had a lot of fun decorating.



Atm we're proging GS. We managed to do vSS hm a couple of weeks ago and are now trying to die less and to be faster so we can try to go after the trifecta and get the mount. While it looks like it's gonna take a bit of time we are confident we can pull it off with enough time. Our vSS hm runs are getting better and we can now do them with not too many wipes.

Our raid lead was reading a bit about the upcoming changed and suggested we try out vSS hm and see how different it is on PTS before we're all gonna lose our minds over it. Maybe it is a bad patch, maybe it is not too bad and we can simply adjust and go after GS again. So our raid lead thought it would be important to test it out.

So we tried vSS hm yesterday and... it didn't go well. All of a sudden we had trouble doing enough DPS to the boss and to the mobs and therefore our tank and our healers were struggling to keep us alive. It took so much longer to kill stuff that I'm not sure we can do a speed run now.

So DPS was down. Okay, maybe we can adjust? But then again, we don't know how atm. Again, we're not endgamers. We don't know all the insides and outside of the game, you can't wake us in the middle of the night and ask us what sets does [xxx] and expect an answer. We need a bit of help from endgamers and people who know the game better than us. Ideas so we can look for new sets or skills or whatever. And I have no problem asking for help. But now it looks like we get quite a few changes so that we can't just tweak some stuff here and there and then hit the boss with the same DPS we did before. And this is disheartening. When you managed to do a trial hm and now it looks like you can't? That is not fun. And ESO is not our job, we don't want to relearn everything from scratch so we can do the same content we did before. It simply is not fun. And there is also no say that we're gonna do the same damage before the next patch hits and we have to do everything all over again.

The other thing we noticed was healing. Our healers were now struggling to keep us alive with the HoT changes. The damage the boss and the mobs were doing were the same, but healing was low and slow with the same set up so that we had problems healing the ice tomb and therefore wiping everyone.

Also with the DPS down we had problems doing the portals in time. In the end we couldn't finish vSS hm anymore and called it a day. Needless to say our prog group is now feeling down after this encounter.



Lokkestiiz – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Ice Tombs; loosing too much health and having problems healing it up so we don't explode. We changed tactics, two healers healing the person up and tank using selfish sets but fight took a lot longer and was less enjoyable
Pulse Damage; had problems healing this as well, in the end we had 2 DDs using Barrier and that helped a lot

Yolnahkriin – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Fight took a lot longer than it did on live
Healing was a bit of an issue again, but not as bad as the first boss, explosions were harder to heal

Nahviintaas – Biggest problems for us with the changes:
Healing was again one our biggest problems with the 2 sec HoT duration, our healers which are pretty good for our grp normally on live now struggled hard to keep us alive, these changes were the most brutal for them
Our Off-Tank also had to use more selfish sets so the statue wouldn't knock him out but it went better than we expected, tanks were doing okay-ish in all fights
Downstairs was always a wipe, we couldn't finish the miniboss in 90 seconds before he killed us, our damage which was high enough in live is now not high enough for this encounter anymore
General damage wasn't high enough anymore and now we struggle with the last boss we could beat normally on live

(And we also noticed that the longer the fight took the worse the instance seemed to get? Performance wise it seemed like the instance was degenerating.)



So from my perspective as a mid-tier player, I dislike the changes. A lot.

I get what you're trying to do and I agree that more casual players need more accessibility to do hard dungeons and trials. Heck, even us mid-tiers would need that. But whatever this patch is... it's not doing that.

We all want more people joining raids and dungeons. Our group would love to see more faces and maybe have a second group running. It would make our day if the people we like and that play with us would get awesome rewards. Imagine more people getting skins or colors or even mounts. That would be awesome! But now it just seems like some peeps like us will just be left behind.

When you talked about accessibility I thought something along the lines of help people get groups or help them make build or whatever. Maybe new sets that helped other playstyles.

Project Vitality from @Nefas for example was a very good idea, I had some good runs with people (also did one of the newer trials for the first time) and had two people who had Godslayer explain to me what our group could do get there. Again, I don't know the ins and outs of the game so people taking the time to explain to me how we could make things better was pretty great.

What I would've loved to see would be the devs and/or the combat team maybe explain things. Like either have streams of explanation videos of some stuff. Like doing a GS/PB/SB run and explain mechanics, explain what DPS/Healing/Tankiness is needed, give some set recommendations (that are ofc not limited to that), maybe make a video explaining how to make your own rotation or how to make your own build. Maybe ideas what to do when you are struggling with certain things.

Maybe find a way to make finding a group easier. Again, Project Vitality makes finding a trial grp easier. Idk if a trial grp finder is the way but other peeps will maybe have some ideas.

I get that the damage can't go up forever. Imagine seeing @skinnycheeks parsing and he just does like a million damage per second (which would be funny tbh). But at the same time reducing damage (and healing which was the hardest change for us) to the point that old content we managed to do now so hard that we can't beat the last boss does not seem like making the game more accessible. Still think Oakensoul was a very good way to help people close the gap (though I agree it needed some adjustments in PvP). One of our raiders has a muscle disease that makes it difficult for him to push buttons, doing something that is 'too' repeatable makes his muscle clench. His build got gutted pretty bad and we noticed that 'spammable' builds were you put down your dots and only use your spammable were doing a lot of more damage. He tried it and his muscles in his hands clenched and he had problems playing with us. Atm we're looking to find another build for him that would work with the PTS changes but again we are not the super experienced players so it's gonna take some time. And this mate deserves the achievement so much because he put so much effort into our runs!

Our grp will not quit the game atm, we're gonna try to get our GS until the next update and keep a look at the upcoming patch notes. But also if it looks like this version or at least some capacity of this version makes it to live we're gonna have a break from the game. Seeing how many combat changes we had in the past I'm pretty sure we will have some kind of power creep coming again and therefore make it easier for us to do the content. It always happens. But since this patch looks like it's not gonna be fun we're not keen of pushing content for 3 months so that the combat gets changed yet again.

Also what about the other grp content like vKA hm, vRG hm and vDSR hm? Since they are new they tend to be a lot harder than the older content. And even older content like vSO hm could become a lot harder with the poison phase.

Also maybe they should not do the giant changes in one go. Maybe try LA/HA changes first and then see how it goes, maybe then DoT changes, then class changes. These big changes also make it hard to see what we have to optimize again. If it were only LA/HA for example we could see how much it affects us and then adjust. Now with everything it just seems like a hot mess.

I really hope that ZOS finds a way to balance things out and make content more accessible for all players (maybe even add a colorblind mode for people like me). We need new and more people doing trials and dungeons but maybe not at the cost of mid-tier players like our GS group.

Cheers to all and thank you @ZOS_Kevin for keeping an eye on our feedback.




P.S. This is just my personal view as a mid-tier player and this does not mean I'm right about these things. After testing in week 1 and 2 this is just how our grp perceives this and no one of us wants to paint the game in a super bad way. We love ESO that is why I thought it would be important to voice my opinion on this. I want this game to succeed in every way and that it stays around for a long time but it also means that if I (or another grp of players) think these changes will be bad for the game... we have to voice our opinion. If you are a casual player or a mid-tier like me or even one of the best players there is... I also want to hear your opinion. Maybe we can all find a common ground even if we disagree on these changes to ESO can stay the amazing game it is.

Also english is not my native language so bear with me.
Thank you for readinf and keep testing!

Awesome feedback! I am 100% in the same boat along with my core group of friends. We all agree that if everything is nerfed and massively changed as it stands we will most likely not play anymore. Of course that is always a tough decision since we have years invested, but if ZOS does not care about our time and concerns I am not going to care about supporting them now and in the future. The concerns of the community is not a "knee-jerk reaction" as stated. It is 100% concern that the patch is terrible.

Foxtrot39

Never chased any build meta if it didn't fit my playstyle/needs, I can't be good at something I don't enjoy doing

Already hard to find anyone for prog, even at my guild meant exactly for that due to change setting most of the non veteran player back to the starting block

After U35 think I can shelve the idea of doing anything but HRC, and AA on vet and forget about any trial HM alltogether

Skjaldbjorn

Erissime wrote: »

That is not what I said. I know how to play in groups and I stay well enough among their numbers to both either succeed or die while at it - together. My comment was about most content, for regardless of it, most groups just sit in damage relying on healers entirely. True enough I Have made my share of movement slightly out of it to avoid things, and lived to do more damage further on - and have always wondered why do people do not do it as well, only to hear those in the know of things ( raid leaders) inssist on lack of movement. I get that it is not easy to get a whole number of 8 or 10 people to move around in sync when needed - but then nothing about this content is easy anyway.

Actually, compared to a lot of other MMOs and the raiding I have done there, I find ESO quite easy. Mechanically the game often underwhelms. For every good mechanical fight (Lokke, Falgravn to some extent, Bahsei, new twins in DSR), there typically comes a laundry list of either mechanic devoid fights or extremely shallow, surface-level mechanics that are simply parseable to avoid.

I think ESO suffers from two pretty wild extremes - trials that are designed to such a poor level they should be scrapped or reworked entirely (vAS and vSO, I am looking at you) or trials with extremely fun and engaging play, but have fallen completely away due to the power creep and ability to parse through mechanics (vCR, vKA and vMOL).

What we need are more mechanics that aren't hard parseable but also aren't directly intrusive. Take vCR, for example. What if while minis were alive, Zmaja takes ~20-30% reduced damage? For each one, it would stack. That would make choosing not to focus the minis (or leaving one alive) overall less appealing without being directly intrusive or obnoxious. Another good example fight is the new twins in DSR, where hard parsing them is only so beneficial over the course of the fight.

prof_doom

@ZOS_Kevin. What about the feedback from Code?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611505/why-the-changes-in-update-35-miss-the-mark-and-fail-to-fix-the-issues-that-it-seeks-to-address

ZOS_Kevin

@prof_doom We have been reviewing a ton of feedback, including the one you linked to from Code.

Also, feel free to tag me in the thread next time. I get a ton of notifications, but there is a better chance that I'll reply in something that I'm tagged in. Just don't want linking in other player's posts to get out of hand.

elinien

code65536 wrote: »

I feel like this is the kind of testing that ZOS should have done themselves internally, prior to even announcing the PTS. These kinds of glaringly obvious balance issues should've been tested and accounted for before PTS, and player testing should only serve as a confirmation of that things are still balanced..

How many low-mid tier players do they have to point these things out? It's easy to be so used to and knowledgeable about things you just don't comprehend how hard changes can be on people.

I'm a low/mid tier dps. I've worked on my dps for 4 years. I've put far more time into it than a lot of higher level dps and I do ~20-30k in content if I'm lucky and really doing my best. I don't have problems weaving... I don't have problems keeping my buffs and aoes up.... I just don't do a lot of damage. I've taught people how to do weaving and rotations, all of whom have surpassed what I can do myself.

Every single time they make changes to 'close the gap' or 'lower the ceiling' my dps goes down and there is nothing I can do about it. It's highly unlikely at this point I'm going to get better to make up for the losses. After having put in so much work to get to where I am, it's incredibly demoralizing.

JustAGoodPlayer

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Never chased any build meta if it didn't fit my playstyle/needs, I can't be good at something I don't enjoy doing

Already hard to find anyone for prog, even at my guild meant exactly for that due to change setting most of the non veteran player back to the starting block

After U35 think I can shelve the idea of doing anything but HRC, and AA on vet and forget about any trial HM alltogether

Welcom to the club. We are so dissapointed that did not go anywhere for already a year )

Galiferno

Your post really resonates with me because I am too am part of this grey area between casual and super sweaty. My guild has done every HM(except vRG and vDSR HMs) multiple times now and with ease, to the point where we took people through vSS HM who wouldn't have a chance to run it otherwise because we believed in them and thought they showed potential and wanted them to have a clear. We're not score pushers, we're not doing Falgravn HM in 5 minutes like some groups. But we can clear those HMs in one session even if it means wipes and staying there longer than 2 hours. We're currently progging Gryphon Heart and vRG HM and now the next patch is gonna doom us for both of those. We've cleared Bahsei HM, where most groups get stuck for months, with ease now but every session we have struggled with Xalvakka due to DPS struggling to learn mechanics, which means deaths, which means we don't pass the DPS check. We're easily above average, we have some amazing dps, some with almost every trifecta, but still struggle on the hardest DPS check in a hard mode trial. Groups like mine are probably a better representation of the veteran trial community than this teeny tiny minority blowing throw Planesbreakers like nothing. And this next patch does nothing helpful for us, only hurts our group across every spectrum. That's what I want ZOS to understand about this patch, that those of us good enough for vet trials and HMs, starting to dabble in trifecta runs, and want to help others achieve the same, will no longer have the same potential.