Yes, people are leaving, and yes, it's because of this patch

Kusto

Dps has been nerfed many times before, maybe not that much at once but it has always climbed back up. Currently on live it's the highest its ever been. This time its gonna be no different. Yes, players may struggle temporarily for patch or two but then they'll release new stronger sets like they have habit of doing every patch or chapter. They need to make room now or dps would be 200k soon.

GetAgrippa

It's not only about DPS for a lot of people. What some of you don't realize is there's something in these patch notes to *** just about everyone off.

Some don't want to spam one button 15 to 20 times. Some don't want to see dots die in pvp. Some don't want to have to spam burst heals while healing in pve because hots are barely doing anything. Some are angry over nonsensical changes to their classes. Some are appalled at the new buff purge set in pvp. Some are just fed up with zos.

Being reductive and minimizing complaints isn't helping anyone.

Skjaldbjorn

Kusto wrote: »

Dps has been nerfed many times before, maybe not that much at once but it has always climbed back up. Currently on live it's the highest its ever been. This time its gonna be no different. Yes, players may struggle temporarily for patch or two but then they'll release new stronger sets like they have habit of doing every patch or chapter. They need to make room now or dps would be 200k soon.

This is the first time since I began playing in Morrowind where the top trifecta achievements will likely be unattainable. Even the "top-.0001%" have said as much. I know several people in the DSR run yesterday. They have no reason to lie. They went from needing 2 DPS in Reef portals to 3 DPS being extremely tight/sketchy even getting down there early so DoTs are ticking the moment the reef spawns.

Again, Zos has no idea what incremental change is. They have no idea how to adjust content to meet their sweeping changes. I have zero issue with the LA changes. I have zero issues with slowly reducing power creep and adjusting damage. The DoT changes aren't just a DPS nerf - they're a functionality nerf. They're going to make ground DoTs complete garbage on highly mobile fights.

If these changes go through, they should only do so alongside adjustments to the content and trifecta titles to match accordingly. Expecting progs to sit around for months with their thumbs up their asses after working on these trifectas for months under the given climate is absurd.

Sandman929

Kusto wrote: »

Dps has been nerfed many times before, maybe not that much at once but it has always climbed back up. Currently on live it's the highest its ever been. This time its gonna be no different. Yes, players may struggle temporarily for patch or two but then they'll release new stronger sets like they have habit of doing every patch or chapter. They need to make room now or dps would be 200k soon.

I think most people are unhappy with the manner by which it's being reduced and the intention to make content accessible, which these changes do not.
Since the proposed changes don't have the intended result, ZoS is showing that they either have hidden motives or aren't capable of making changes that do produce the intended result.
Players are also raising issues of unintended consequences of the proposed changes, and as usual, ZOS isn't communicating effectively that these concerns are being heard or understood.

Gederic

This isn't a matter of being able to overcome the dps nerf, top endgamers will always find a way to squeeze every last number. Everyone knows DPS is wildly high at the top end of players.

This is a matter of the combat being fundamentally altered for in my opinion and many others, the worse. This is a matter of the content team designing content for the current highest power level while the combat team actively takes a sledge to not just the top 1% but all players. Ultimately this is a matter, for many of us, if it is even worth it or fun to play when the combat team seems to want to be at odds with a large swathe of their community.

Amottica

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.
Im so ... tired.

Yeah small rant, sorry.
Great video tho, watching right now.

The end-game community is not toxic. Sure, a few are, but the community as a whole is not. In fact, the end game community in ESO and pretty much any game is extremely helpful to the player base as a whole. It is players from this segment of the greater community that are responsible for a large poriton of the game knowledge, especially with theorycrafting, figuring out mechanics of new content, productive builds, and more.

They also help other groups get clear in new content, and I am talking beyond selling clear as some run with what would essentially be a training guild to help them develop and clear new content.

If this is toxic then we need more, not less.

PrincessOfThieves

Sergykid wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

I think some people are forgetting that this game is supposed to be played how you want. It means that people like you should be able to do what they want without being accused of gatekeeping.
It's really disturbing how this whole debacle turned into a crusade against "elitists", people like Nefas and Skinny Cheeks are getting a lot of hate, apparently.

nobody accuses others of gatekeeping, everyone plays how they want.
but if you look for people for a trifecta, and that trifecta can be completed by someone with 80-90k dps, you don't take him because he's too low dps for your preferences, then go and complain that there's nobody to do a trifecta with, then this is when you can be accused of gatekeeping.

Um... Yes, you are accusing them of gatekeeping.
Which trifectas are we talking about? There are some hardmodes that can be done with lower dps, but the strategies you have to use are different and can't be used for trifectas.
Even in old trials such as Cloudrest it's very difficult to do it with this kind of dps. I know that because I've tried progging it with a social guild, all dds had around 60-80k. Portal dds would often fail portals (not killing crystals fast enough) and creepers were alive for too long. Not to mention that 80k on a dummy usually translated to 20k in the actual fight. So I don't think you can get this trifecta with 80-90k. Maybe it's technically possible, but it would take literal months of practice until everyone can do the mechanics perfectly, and that is not a very fun experience.
You will probably say that it was beaten in Summerset patch with similar dps, but those who could do it were insanely skilled players. Average players simply don't have this kind of team synergy and situational awareness.
Raid leaders often set high requirements for hms/trifectas because they don't want to spend months wiping on the same boss. As someone who's tried progging with low/no requirement teams, I tend to agree. It's just not a great experience for everyone involved.

Skjaldbjorn

Amottica wrote: »

The end-game community is not toxic. Sure, a few are, but the community as a whole is not. In fact, the end game community in ESO and pretty much any game is extremely helpful to the player base as a whole. It is players from this segment of the greater community that are responsible for a large poriton of the game knowledge, especially with theorycrafting, figuring out mechanics of new content, productive builds, and more.

They also help other groups get clear in new content, and I am talking beyond selling clear as some run with what would essentially be a training guild to help them develop and clear new content.

If this is toxic then we need more, not less.

There are most definitely toxic players in ESO's end-game. I've spent most of my time in ESO avoiding them. I'd have like 5 Godslayers right now if I had chosen to disregard their toxicity, but I chose to kick back and avoid those people, yet I still had four concurrent cores raiding seven nights a week, getting trifectas, clearing content and having fun. I literally have a running list of players I will not, under any circumstances, raid with aside from maybe a carry where I can be in and out in 20m.

Having said that, the list I have is pretty short. Probably 20-30 people last I checked. Some of them have quit or been banned, too. Yes, there is toxicity. Yes, there is an elitist mindset. But they're not the majority. People like me and the folks I run with are. We just want to be able to enjoy the game insofar as the aspects of it that bring us joy and that competitive sense of completion.

I've helped bring up plenty of players. Back in one of my DB progs, I moved to OT because the person doing it got tired of it. Our MT had to leave for basic. So we brought in a new MT. I'd never seen or heard of him. He was inexperienced but talented. I worked with him, coached him, showed him what we were doing and how. By the time we finished the DB, he was better than me at it. By the time he quit he had like 5 GS titles.

Most of us "end-game" players are heavily invested into the community. We can't do what we enjoy without a robust raiding community. We need the natural ebb-and-flow of players rising up as players fall down. We cannot exist without people wanting to improve and "climb the ladder". At the very very top, yes there is some level of gatekeeping, and yes there is some toxicity. But for most of us, we just want to raid and be able to enjoy the game at our skill level. That's it.

Durham

Meanwhile all we get from ZOS is we will talk about this more next week and make some adjustments!

*** DEAF****

Another week of bashing this patch.

siddique

Kusto wrote: »

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

Incorrect. The top 0.0001% will still do all trifectas. The game will become exponentially harder for everyone else.

Galiferno

Kusto wrote: »

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

So because a handful of top players will experience minimal difficulty, you don't think it's a problem that those of us who are above average, been spending months and months to learn the meta and clear HMs consistently and want to strive for trifectas will suddenly be set back drastically? Not all of us have the connections or skill level to run with those top groups(I am fully aware of the top NA servers/raid leads who run you through trifectas if they like you, I want to earn them) and are doing them from the ground up with friends and people we've bonded with over a long time even if we're not the sweatiest. It's a very toxic mentality to say "tough luck" to us when we've put in so much work into hard mode trials and were at the cusp of starting trifectas. My Gryphon Heart and vRG HM progs now have a time crunch to finish before this patch shakes things up so much that we would probably cancel those progs.

shadyjane62

I 'm fair to middling player, I will never see vet dungeon nor do I want to. But my Templar has lost so much it will be unplayable. Right now I do just fine. After patch launch I will be able to do nothing I used to do and besides the new animation is hideous.

The elites will adapt, the rest of us not so much.

Matteo11

Anyone who tests on PTS knows this patch will be the biggest L ESO has every taken.

This debate is about facts vs apathy and ignorance. People who thinks its 'elites crying' are sorely mistaken.

I am someone who has done less vet trials than I can count on one hand, but testing this patch makes it painfully obvious that U35 will be a disaster.

Arthtur

Amottica wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.
Im so ... tired.

Yeah small rant, sorry.
Great video tho, watching right now.

The end-game community is not toxic. Sure, a few are, but the community as a whole is not. In fact, the end game community in ESO and pretty much any game is extremely helpful to the player base as a whole. It is players from this segment of the greater community that are responsible for a large poriton of the game knowledge, especially with theorycrafting, figuring out mechanics of new content, productive builds, and more.

They also help other groups get clear in new content, and I am talking beyond selling clear as some run with what would essentially be a training guild to help them develop and clear new content.

If this is toxic then we need more, not less.

?
I didnt say that endgame community is toxic? I was just ranting because i saw so many ppl happy that endgame community will get hit. Like just yesterday: "So if endgame is dying, can we get more zones with quests instead of DLC dungeons?", "Im happy that ppl are leaving. They arent good for the game anyway.", "U35 is good because i like seeing ppl suffer" etc. etc...

Im trying to be nice and not insult ppl on forums but... its hard. When i see thread where somebody is talking about how endgame players should chill out and stop spreading negativity and then check another thread and see how ppl are happy that endgame is dying and the U35 should come already... sigh... and then i checked reddit. And i turned it off after seeing comments in first post. Never again.

Like from my experience. For every 1 toxic endgame player i see 10 toxic low end players. But still ppl only accuse endgame of toxicity and dont see anything else... its just tiring.

And yeah, i helped many times too. Many ppl were happy because of it, some insulted me because they didnt like my answer (for example, i got insulted for saying that addons or internet is the best way to see where surveys are. Yes i was insulted because i dared to say "internet"). But so many ppl dont understand how important endgame community is...

In addition i learned today that a person with who i did some trifectas in dungeons quit after seeing patch on PTS. A person who took me into vet trials even tho i didnt had achievements. I cant even describe how bad i feel right now...

Lets hope that ZOS wakes up.

sunshineflame

Send me all of your stuff...

Sergykid

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

I think some people are forgetting that this game is supposed to be played how you want. It means that people like you should be able to do what they want without being accused of gatekeeping.
It's really disturbing how this whole debacle turned into a crusade against "elitists", people like Nefas and Skinny Cheeks are getting a lot of hate, apparently.

nobody accuses others of gatekeeping, everyone plays how they want.
but if you look for people for a trifecta, and that trifecta can be completed by someone with 80-90k dps, you don't take him because he's too low dps for your preferences, then go and complain that there's nobody to do a trifecta with, then this is when you can be accused of gatekeeping.

Um... Yes, you are accusing them of gatekeeping.
Which trifectas are we talking about? There are some hardmodes that can be done with lower dps, but the strategies you have to use are different and can't be used for trifectas.
Even in old trials such as Cloudrest it's very difficult to do it with this kind of dps. I know that because I've tried progging it with a social guild, all dds had around 60-80k. Portal dds would often fail portals (not killing crystals fast enough) and creepers were alive for too long. Not to mention that 80k on a dummy usually translated to 20k in the actual fight. So I don't think you can get this trifecta with 80-90k. Maybe it's technically possible, but it would take literal months of practice until everyone can do the mechanics perfectly, and that is not a very fun experience.
You will probably say that it was beaten in Summerset patch with similar dps, but those who could do it were insanely skilled players. Average players simply don't have this kind of team synergy and situational awareness.
Raid leaders often set high requirements for hms/trifectas because they don't want to spend months wiping on the same boss. As someone who's tried progging with low/no requirement teams, I tend to agree. It's just not a great experience for everyone involved.

there's a difference between what i wrote, i don't accuse of gatekeeping. I said that those people that do it, are those that say they don't have who to run with, but refuse to take anything lower than optimal even though it would suffice for that content, just because he can't do without cheesing mechanics with high dps. I already explained some things in post #20 in this thread. Godslayer able people are not lying around waiting for someone to search for them. You need to find those people with potential for it and run with them, but this kind of people are gatekeeped by those people that refuse to take them because they are not GS able since the start.
and for your Cloudrest example, i think that is the most forgiving trial for low dps. I have almost 90k on a dummy using falsegod and i can safely do GH, i once did +3 with personal no death, i safely can do a +1 solo portal but for +2/+3 i didn't get the chance to see how well i would do, and guess what nobody wants to take a 90k dd in a GH attempt even though in actual content i do almost as and sometimes more than those with over 100k parses. This trial is more about prioritizing focus and moving around than bursting down everything.

also trifectas are more about just high numbers, it's between bosses traveling, trash packs stacking, etc. During a boss fight, how fast you complete mechanics rather than how fast you kill ads. I didn't do hardmode for dreadsail or rockgrove, if those have much harder checks then it's on ZOS part. I don't say to waste time with people that are too far from achieving those, but to actually try and gather those people that have the potential to do it. A prog now is about getting ready people to complete rather than finding ready people to complete.

Necrotech_Master

Matteo11 wrote: »

Anyone who tests on PTS knows this patch will be the biggest L ESO has every taken.

This debate is about facts vs apathy and ignorance. People who thinks its 'elites crying' are sorely mistaken.

I am someone who has done less vet trials than I can count on one hand, but testing this patch makes it painfully obvious that U35 will be a disaster.

i havent even been on the PTS and i can tell that it will be awful, i already hate using skill dots which have 2 sec ticks

i barely run trials, but good at following mechs and i already see my dps toons taking a minimum of 20% hit on dps based on the patch notes alone

i do really hope that they do something drastic with next weeks patch to either remove or rebalance 80% of the changes they are doing

pklemming

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I 'm fair to middling player, I will never see vet dungeon nor do I want to. But my Templar has lost so much it will be unplayable. Right now I do just fine. After patch launch I will be able to do nothing I used to do and besides the new animation is hideous.

The elites will adapt, the rest of us not so much.

If you are on PC-EU, send me a tell and I can take you through some vet content, if you want. It is nice to experience, and the offer is there if you ever want(and I am still playing).

Regarding the patch, my playtime has reduced massively. I mainly do prog trials and groups, and maybe a few dungeons with guildies. I spend a lot of time in other games now and honestly don't feel like logging in to ESO anymore knowing this patch is coming.

I hate what it did to both templar and magden. They also changed the awesome flurry animation, which I can't forgive. I don't like Templar jabs either.

I am dreading doing vCR+3 portals and execute if this patch goes through in any form, or future HMs.

Seriously wondering if this will be the patch that kills eso. I wonder how many subs and crown-crate buying people they need to lose before they stop making a profit.

IZZEFlameLash

Kusto wrote: »

Dps has been nerfed many times before, maybe not that much at once but it has always climbed back up. Currently on live it's the highest its ever been. This time its gonna be no different. Yes, players may struggle temporarily for patch or two but then they'll release new stronger sets like they have habit of doing every patch or chapter. They need to make room now or dps would be 200k soon.

The high DPS requirements are due to ZOS making the achievements and new mechanics dependent on how high your group's DPS is. Various mechanics that are seemingly benchmarked on top tier performances say so. Because there are definitely dps/heal checks that more or less forces top tier performances to be able to meet the requirement for achievements and boss fights. And that is playerbase problem how?

Nerhesi

This gamed is doomed to the slow death it has been experiencing unless it makes changes like U35 and more.
The game is inaccessible - and it is not because of the changes - it is from the lack of changes.

For years, people have pointed out that this games combat system is the weakest component. Whether the lack of balance in classes, the silliness of general skill lines vs class identity, or the terrible bug-became feature that is weaving/cancelling... they have all been called out.

Unfortunately, any time changes are proposed, the vocal brigade that is the minority that play this game, speak out.

shadyjane62

pklemming wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I 'm fair to middling player, I will never see vet dungeon nor do I want to. But my Templar has lost so much it will be unplayable. Right now I do just fine. After patch launch I will be able to do nothing I used to do and besides the new animation is hideous.

The elites will adapt, the rest of us not so much.

If you are on PC-EU, send me a tell and I can take you through some vet content, if you want. It is nice to experience, and the offer is there if you ever want(and I am still playing).

Regarding the patch, my playtime has reduced massively. I mainly do prog trials and groups, and maybe a few dungeons with guildies. I spend a lot of time in other games now and honestly don't feel like logging in to ESO anymore knowing this patch is coming.

I hate what it did to both templar and magden. They also changed the awesome flurry animation, which I can't forgive. I don't like Templar jabs either.

I am dreading doing vCR+3 portals and execute if this patch goes through in any form, or future HMs.

Seriously wondering if this will be the patch that kills eso. I wonder how many subs and crown-crate buying people they need to lose before they stop making a profit.

Thank you for the kind offer but I am already gone. I am too disheartened by what the changes are. I am driven to haunt the forums hoping for some good news but it is not forthcoming nor do I see anything in the attitudes of the powers that be that gives me hope.

The vibes here from Zos are not a good sign.

Skjaldbjorn

Nerhesi wrote: »

This gamed is doomed to the slow death it has been experiencing unless it makes changes like U35 and more.
The game is inaccessible - and it is not because of the changes - it is from the lack of changes.

For years, people have pointed out that this games combat system is the weakest component. Whether the lack of balance in classes, the silliness of general skill lines vs class identity, or the terrible bug-became feature that is weaving/cancelling... they have all been called out.

Unfortunately, any time changes are proposed, the vocal brigade that is the minority that play this game, speak out.

I am fully open and willing to embrace incremental change that makes sense. Making the two most recent trifectas unattainable or nearly unattainable without adjusting the content is unacceptable.

Brettoel

prof_doom wrote: »

This video is Nefas commenting on the disbanding of One More Pull
TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Also - Nefas is taking a week off to recharge and reevaluate.
Seriously... Nefas is the biggest advocate for this game you had, and he's just about had it.

Just watching the video and I really hope ZoS changes their mind about this whole change, i mainly tank and i'd hate to see some of the favorite people i like to play with leave the game.

BalticBlues

"The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
"As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."
-- Sid Meier

YandereGirlfriend

BalticBlues wrote: »

"The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
"As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."
-- Sid Meier

Now there's a guy who knows how to design a game!

Suddenly you've got me giving side-eye to Civ5 over there in my Steam library.

Far from this existential ESO drama there's always that sweet, sweet: "One more turn...."

pklemming

I've not played Civ in years. Started on Civnet and loved every one since. Sorry, as not related, but off to find Civ now. Between that and my Rimworld habit, I don't think I will miss ESO much.

p00tx

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

I don’t pve anymore but I’ve heard stories of gate keeping almost immediately after DSR came out. Regular vDSR runs, no HM or anything, would require a prior clear to get in. That’s gate keeping at its finest.

As far as I can tell one issue here is "I've heard stories...". I don't doubt that someone came across a run that required a prior clear when the trial was newly released, that doesn't mean most runs did.

However - it's common that a group will require a clear for farm runs, because the purpose is to do one or more quick runs to get gear. Having to explain mechanics defeats the purpose of a farm run. You truly think it's gatekeeping to adapt the requirements for the purpose? What about training runs in that case? If a player tries to run ahead and pull all the enemies before the raid leader has explained the mechanics and are then removed from the group... is that gatekeeping?

I don’t actually care what ‘end gamers’ do. I pvp and have fun doing it.

My point is, ‘sources’ is actually my spouse… and has only managed I think 2 vDSR runs since it launched (xbna). She’s in 5 guilds and a few more Discord servers and has managed less than a handful of ‘open’ runs. Gatekeeping or not, that’s just sad.

As for the score pusher trifecta runs, I seriously doubt those would be advertised/‘open’. If they are that’s already a bad sign it won’t complete…

Actually (I know that's a terrible way to start a sentence, and I'm cringing at myself right now), We frequently pug trifectas in endgame on PCNA and some put up really strong scores, and they're put up in a public discord where anyone who meets the run prerequisites can participate. Most runs will take one or two players who don't fully meet prerequisites to give them a shot.

It seems like a lot of people have a lot of uninformed misconceptions about how the endgame community operates. I'd suggest getting to know us before making judgements about us. Make it a point to hug a Planesbreaker today.

AdamLAD

Zos's mindset of catering to the casual player will destroy the game. Like by the very definition of casual they don't really care about what happens in comparison to a devoted player. So by logic, cater to the mid to top players. I literally do not understand why zenimax want to close gaps.

JustAGoodPlayer

A lot of us get nerfs for LAST 3 YEARS !!!

This patch is already red line to us because we are really dissapointed.

Now when a lot of good thingth as idea was implemented, if nothing will change to good again - it will just show that if we players - will not be more active and will not be heared by developer - we just NEVER get a good changes at all.

So it is better for us start do some thing.

Elsonso

BalticBlues wrote: »

"The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
"As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."
-- Sid Meier

This is a good source for the comments that claim the development team is out of touch with the players, and don't play their own game. 🤔