Yes, people are leaving, and yes, it's because of this patch

ApoAlaia

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJbVviAuVg&ab_channel=NefasQS

Another Nefas video - Craglorn empty during prime time on a weekend.

I just watched that but I don't want to read too much into it at the moment.

'Event exhaustion' in my experience is 'a thing', besides in PC/EU Belkarth was pretty dead in terms of PUGs all throughout Zenithar's (on a side note having to shout to get a normal trial group going is like going back to the early 2000s) as well.

We have Mayhem in a week or two so personally I'm OK to chill for a bit and do stuff that doesn't remind of what is coming.

stargleen

sneakymitchell

Sync01 wrote: »

People started leaving before this, but for many players this was the last drop.
It's not just the proposed changes, but the sentiment expressed by ZOS.

I honestly don't see how I can stay if these changes goes live. Most of my community will be gone, and while I don't dislike overland content I've already done it all. Trials are what I enjoy and there will be few players left who are on the same level or above me, essentially making it way too difficult to find a group where I feel like I'm getting challenged.

I have spent hundreds of hours on hosting training runs, teaching players about mechanics & skills, how to read logs, how to set up addons etc because we need more players in the upper end. But now it feels like there's no point to it any more. It honestly makes me sad to see how ZOS is effectively killing their own game.

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

NerfSeige

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

Bro, wym? Project vitality have no reqs from vcrags to vmol non-hm. They literally want people to raid and have patience to teach.

Matteo11

prof_doom wrote: »

Matteo11 wrote: »

Feels like ZOS just shifted to high gear on speed running ESO's decline.

Assuming they're NOT actively trying to wreck it, they still have a chance to save things here, but it's gonna have to be pretty drastic.
They're gonna have to pretty much cancel U35, outside of putting out the new dungeons.
They're gonna have to issue a public apology for certain comments that have been made.
They're gonna have to give us some kind of sign that they intend to listen to the players, something like re-launching the class advocate program.

I totally wish for this thing to turn around positive, but I do agree that it will take some changes that are just not characteristic of this dev team.

prof_doom

sneakymitchell wrote: »

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

I'm in plenty of guilds that are more than happy to take people and teach them the trial, help them improve their builds, their parsing, and anything else they might need, and aren't looking for absurd DPS numbers.

As for the claim that trials is all about mechanics, yes, you're correct. But the parts you're leaving out are:

1. If you haven't practiced your rotation before running a trial, you're going to make far more mistakes than if you didn't.
2. Vet trials do have damage check mechanics in them, both hard (you miss it and wipe happens) and soft (you don't keep up with say, trash spawns, and you'll get overwhelmed)

sbr32

Sergykid wrote: »

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.

This is just untrue. I am/was in 2 guilds (one of which I spent the last 3 years building and running) that were based around teaching people the basics of vet trial content. There were some requirements, because they are necessary, but they were reasonable - 55k DPS and a couple of basic support sets for T1.

I spent hundreds of hours leading barely qualified groupd through vet dlc runs and had a blast doing it. I have no idea how many 100s of players I led through their first vet dlc trial clear.

These groups are out there if there are people looking for them.

Sergykid

prof_doom wrote: »

Craglorn empty during prime time on a weekend.

it's most probably a bug with the instances, made a thread about it yesterday in bug report section, but it's classic for streamers/youtubers to make an almost 10 minute extended video of it for the views, relatable for any subject really

jecks33

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Craglorn empty during prime time on a weekend.

it's most probably a bug with the instances, made a thread about it yesterday in bug report section, but it's classic for streamers/youtubers to make an almost 10 minute extended video of it for the views, relatable for any subject really

No, the Belkart population started dropping weeks ago on PC EU, before the event

Sync01

sneakymitchell wrote: »

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

What exactly do you mean by gatekeeping?
There are different requirements for different trials and what you're trying to do in those trials. vAA HM can be run with low dps, vRG HM require higher dps. If you're trying to do trifectas the required dps is incredibly high for the later trials. The first bossfight in RG has a mechanic that requite you to kill the boss within a certain timeframe or someone dies. That's not something we made up, it's just the way the trials are made.

Mr_Stach

Sync01 wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

What exactly do you mean by gatekeeping?
There are different requirements for different trials and what you're trying to do in those trials. vAA HM can be run with low dps, vRG HM require higher dps. If you're trying to do trifectas the required dps is incredibly high for the later trials. The first bossfight in RG has a mechanic that requite you to kill the boss within a certain timeframe or someone dies. That's not something we made up, it's just the way the trials are made.

Raidlead:
Hey guys in order for us to beat this Vet Trial we're going to need to pick up our DPS quite a bit or we'll all die to the wipe mechanics, it's a built in DPS Check. So if you have any gear that you can improve or if you can tighten up your rotations, that would be great!

Random Quester that doesn't raid at all:

Grendalism

I’ll start by saying, I’m not an End Game player, but more ‘middle ground heading towards end game’. I’ve been playing since before Sheogorath’s love of cheese. FYI, this is Console, not PC/PTS.

I’ve seen a lot of chat in multiple guild discords from many similar players who are concerned about the u35 patch. Some are already saying that’s it, they’ll be done when it’s launched and won’t be back. This is worrying, as it’s not the “I hit 140k dps” crowd, it’s the “I hit 70-90k dps” crowd.

If the damage is going to drop, and if top end will “see about a 10% decrease”, then if it’s a linear %, the bottom end players will also see a 10% drop. If it’s a non-linear %, then they may see a bigger decrease…

…but anyway you cut it, an overall decrease in damage removes the ability to get SPEED RUNS.

So, assuming u35 goes ahead “as is”, I’d like to hope that the time limits for all speed runs will be significantly expanded too.



Thought:
With Bethesda launching Starfield later this year, could it be this is a ploy to drive down usage of ESO resources (due to declining player base) to re divert into Starfield support?

StarOfElyon

prof_doom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJbVviAuVg&ab_channel=NefasQS

Another Nefas video - Craglorn empty during prime time on a weekend.

I think those were instancing problems.

Sync01

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Raidlead:
Hey guys in order for us to beat this Vet Trial we're going to need to pick up our DPS quite a bit or we'll all die to the wipe mechanics, it's a built in DPS Check. So if you have any gear that you can improve or if you can tighten up your rotations, that would be great!

Random Quester that doesn't raid at all:

Sure feels like it.

When putting together trifecta progressions for players who haven't done one before, there's always at least one person who absolutely refuses to do anything to improve. They refuse to farm gear or make any changes to skills, enchants or gear we recommend, won't do the mechanics or listen to the raid leader, won't parse on a dummy and take any feedback on what to do differently as a direct personal attack. When they eventually get removed from the group for holding every other players who is trying back, they turn around and say we're gatekeeping despite doing literally everything we can to help them improve.
What's up with that!!??

JustAGoodPlayer

META groups are not helping any body to improve [snip]

And you as an exp player do all to make your group pass, but for people who do not deserve it you will not put buff sets on

[snip]

If i will have only 2 option pass with meta group or will not pass i will better will not even go.

Such is what players are really think.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

GreatGildersleeve

Sync01 wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

What exactly do you mean by gatekeeping?
There are different requirements for different trials and what you're trying to do in those trials. vAA HM can be run with low dps, vRG HM require higher dps. If you're trying to do trifectas the required dps is incredibly high for the later trials. The first bossfight in RG has a mechanic that requite you to kill the boss within a certain timeframe or someone dies. That's not something we made up, it's just the way the trials are made.

I don’t pve anymore but I’ve heard stories of gate keeping almost immediately after DSR came out. Regular vDSR runs, no HM or anything, would require a prior clear to get in. That’s gate keeping at its finest.

Sync01

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

META groups are not helping any body to improve [snip]

And you as an exp player do all to make your group pass, but for people who do not deserve it you will not put buff sets on

[snip]

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.
Meta is meta for a reason but you don't have to use it to complete the easier trifectas, that doesn't mean you can use whatever setup you want and expect it to work just as well. If someone is struggling to do enough dps, hps or tank certain enemies then using gear or skills that are more suitable is completely valid.

Players who don't meet the minimum requirements of the content, and refuse to do anything to get better, do in fact not deserve to leech that content from other players who will have to work harder to compensate. If you want a trifecta and have no plans whatsoever to do your part then you can buy a carry run. We litterally can't teach someone who does not want to be taught.

[edited to remove quote]

Mr_Stach

Sync01 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Raidlead:
Hey guys in order for us to beat this Vet Trial we're going to need to pick up our DPS quite a bit or we'll all die to the wipe mechanics, it's a built in DPS Check. So if you have any gear that you can improve or if you can tighten up your rotations, that would be great!

Random Quester that doesn't raid at all:

Sure feels like it.

When putting together trifecta progressions for players who haven't done one before, there's always at least one person who absolutely refuses to do anything to improve. They refuse to farm gear or make any changes to skills, enchants or gear we recommend, won't do the mechanics or listen to the raid leader, won't parse on a dummy and take any feedback on what to do differently as a direct personal attack. When they eventually get removed from the group for holding every other players who is trying back, they turn around and say we're gatekeeping despite doing literally everything we can to help them improve.
What's up with that!!??

That's the big issue with this Patch, it essentially rose the bar of entry even more for these players who are going to cry about Elitist Gatekeeping Even more.

I try to refrain to calling people Toxic or entitled, but this Patch is just a breeding ground for even more Toxic Correspondences like you described. Trials is group content and you are a team, everyone needs to pull their weight, if they aren't then their spot on the team should be questioned, making other people do more work because you refuse to improve is something I would call a Toxic Player.

stevenyaub16_ESO

I remember they were gonna nerf light attacks during one of the previous content updates but walked back on that decision. So there is still hope with these changes.

JustAGoodPlayer

Sync01 wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

META groups are not helping any body to improve [snip]

And you as an exp player do all to make your group pass, but for people who do not deserve it you will not put buff sets on

[snip]

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.
Meta is meta for a reason but you don't have to use it to complete the easier trifectas, that doesn't mean you can use whatever setup you want and expect it to work just as well. If someone is struggling to do enough dps, hps or tank certain enemies then using gear or skills that are more suitable is completely valid.

Players who don't meet the minimum requirements of the content, and refuse to do anything to get better, do in fact not deserve to leech that content from other players who will have to work harder to compensate. If you want a trifecta and have no plans whatsoever to do your part then you can buy a carry run. We litterally can't teach someone who does not want to be taught.

I see things different way.

If I see people who looks 80k DPS players in correct sets on their opinion, to as example vAS+0, that we pass with just a 3-4 players, do you think i will think about such player as about some people that are in my minimal requierment to go with ? )

Yes trifectas may be will need buff sets and etc, but do you make any help to such players that they farm this sets for you and go with you ? )

Are they interested in it in a first place ?

I can put sets for people I respect, based on needs of the group, but is not it to rude ask others to do it ? )

"Hey you, put a sets i want from you on "

And what if i say no ? I just do not want, what next, you will not have enough people to pass correct ?

If not enough players will be - may be some changes that I and a lot of players want will be added.

Not just changes some "elit" players want.

As for trifectas - it is good to go there with peoples that help you before, that help you farm sets. Peoples you are interested to play with.

If some group do nothing for other players is it enough requirment to ask other players for sets ? )

A lot of players do not even like such game play, why some one force them to do it ?

They are not buff bots, they are the same players.

[edited to remove quote]

Sync01

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

I don’t pve anymore but I’ve heard stories of gate keeping almost immediately after DSR came out. Regular vDSR runs, no HM or anything, would require a prior clear to get in. That’s gate keeping at its finest.

As far as I can tell one issue here is "I've heard stories...". I don't doubt that someone came across a run that required a prior clear when the trial was newly released, that doesn't mean most runs did.

However - it's common that a group will require a clear for farm runs, because the purpose is to do one or more quick runs to get gear. Having to explain mechanics defeats the purpose of a farm run. You truly think it's gatekeeping to adapt the requirements for the purpose? What about training runs in that case? If a player tries to run ahead and pull all the enemies before the raid leader has explained the mechanics and are then removed from the group... is that gatekeeping?

PrincessOfThieves

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

People started leaving before this, but for many players this was the last drop.
It's not just the proposed changes, but the sentiment expressed by ZOS.

I honestly don't see how I can stay if these changes goes live. Most of my community will be gone, and while I don't dislike overland content I've already done it all. Trials are what I enjoy and there will be few players left who are on the same level or above me, essentially making it way too difficult to find a group where I feel like I'm getting challenged.

I have spent hundreds of hours on hosting training runs, teaching players about mechanics & skills, how to read logs, how to set up addons etc because we need more players in the upper end. But now it feels like there's no point to it any more. It honestly makes me sad to see how ZOS is effectively killing their own game.

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

If you know your rotation well enough, then you can just do a parse once so you have something to show your raid leader. That's what I do anyway, and I managed to do a lot of vet trials without parsing for hours. There's a lot of guilds that only require 60k or so to join trial runs.
Sure, there are guilds with very high requirements, but they're usually incompatible with more relaxed playstyle anyway. I don't think it's gatekeeping, it's just how they like to play. Things like trifecta progression aren't for everyone, not just in terms of skill. If you don't like parsing on a dummy for hours, then what makes you think you'll like practicing the same trial for weeks?

Lady_Galadhiel

My friendlist is a ghost town since several weeks now, my Main Tank is thinking of leaving, my best DD left already. How I am suppose to do the new dungeons if my group mates leave left and right?

Sync01

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Are they interested in it in a first place ?

I am talking about progression groups. If you join one, you better be interested in progression.

PrincessOfThieves

Hygiliack wrote: »

[snip]

ESO has millions of registered accounts, not millions of active players.

[edited to remove quote]

p00tx

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

jecks33

Hygiliack wrote: »

[snip]

Eso doesn't have 500K active players

[edited to remove quote]

xylena_lazarow

I will try to adapt to u35 when it goes live, but if I can't enjoy a solid DoT brawler, I can't see it holding my interest very long. I'll try other builds like Surprise Attack spam brawler NB. At some point, the best way forward is to adapt to a different game and cancel my ESO+ sub, maybe hoping u36 or u37 will finally make sense of all this upheaval.

PrincessOfThieves

p00tx wrote: »

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

I think some people are forgetting that this game is supposed to be played how you want. It means that people like you should be able to do what they want without being accused of gatekeeping.
It's really disturbing how this whole debacle turned into a crusade against "elitists", people like Nefas and Skinny Cheeks are getting a lot of hate, apparently.

acw37162

True,

Logged into PS5, spent all my crowns, spent all my endever points.

Bought a Nintendo Switch, Downloaded Monster Hunter Rise.

Have not logged into live since.