Yes, people are leaving, and yes, it's because of this patch

prof_doom

This video is Nefas commenting on the disbanding of One More Pull
TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Also - Nefas is taking a week off to recharge and reevaluate.
Seriously... Nefas is the biggest advocate for this game you had, and he's just about had it.

Mr_Stach

I mean Zos is trying to make everything more Accessible, the Death Recap screen that is, you are getting to it in VRG HM faster than ever.

Arthtur

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.
Im so ... tired.

Yeah small rant, sorry.
Great video tho, watching right now.

Pevey

prof_doom wrote: »

This video is Nefas commenting on the disbanding of One More Pull
TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Also - Nefas is taking a week off to recharge and reevaluate.
Seriously... Nefas is the biggest advocate for this game you had, and he's just about had it.

I'm one of the people who are done with the game if they don't completely reverse course.

But as for Nefas, I would say it's unclear at this point. We shouldn't put words in his mouth. It's been a crazy week for him, and taking a week off to re-evaluate is just that.

There are few of us around with the beta monkey, and those who are still around have probably taken multiple breaks spanning several patches that were head-scratchers. This one takes the cake and will be felt differently for sure.

The interesting thing about those breaks, and about all the games I don't play or think about any more, is it wasn't just a decision one day to never play again. I just didn't feel like it that day, or the next day, or the next. Until it was forgotten.

So I think you are right, this is being felt now in the community, but the real impact will be felt 6 months from now.

SpacemanSpiff1

whatever you say, (prof) doom(er)

RBAP28

Sure, people are going to leave, but a lot of those people will be back. Not because they agree with the changes, because ESO has no real competition, especially on console. For this reason companies can get away with offering less and less for the same amount of money and making wild game changing swings every update. And I'm sure Zos knows this.

Wolfpaw

RBAP28 wrote: »

Sure, people are going to leave, but a lot of those people will be back. Not because they agree with the changes, because ESO has no real competition, especially on console. For this reason companies can get away with offering less and less for the same amount of money and making wild game changing swings every update. And I'm sure Zos knows this.

Ya healthy competition is just not there on consoles. I really hope LoLmmorpg lands on next gen, for ESO sake also.

James-Wayne

To be fair we know with every patch week 1 is never what actually hits the live server so we really should wait till week 3 to see where the DOTs changes actually sit.

WrathOfInnos

James-Wayne wrote: »

To be fair we know with every patch week 1 is never what actually hits the live server so we really should wait till week 3 to see where the DOTs changes actually sit.

True, I don't think anyone should be leaving based on a week 1 patch. I'd prefer they stick around and help clean up the mess that was just thrown onto PTS. I can't really blame anyone for deciding that is not their responsibility though, especially when its clear the devs have a vastly different vision for ESO than what players want.

Mr_Stach

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

To be fair we know with every patch week 1 is never what actually hits the live server so we really should wait till week 3 to see where the DOTs changes actually sit.

True, I don't think anyone should be leaving based on a week 1 patch. I'd prefer they stick around and help clean up the mess that was just thrown onto PTS. I can't really blame anyone for deciding that is not their responsibility though, especially when its clear the devs have a vastly different vision for ESO than what players want.

I mean I don't think the week 3 will be drastically different, there might be some tweaks or hell some other bombshells planned.

But I think some of these communities are just sick of the Balance Patch Ride, and that's understandable.

A lot of the people in the ESO Frost Discord are just tired of it, especially on the Warden Front.

Sergykid

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

Ratzkifal

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

All I have to say to that is:

Godslayer of Sunspire is awarded for defeating all encounters in Sunspire within 30 minutes without dying. Additionally, all three bosses need to be defeated on hard mode.

Stainless Siege-breaker - Defeat Yandir the Butcher, Captain Vrol, and Lord Falgravn along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for all of them, without suffering a group member death, within 35 minutes of entering Kyne's Perch village in Veteran Kyne's Aegis.

The Path to Alaxon - Defeat Z'Maja, Siroria, Relequen, and Galenwe in the same battle without suffering a group member death within 15 minutes of entering the Cloudrest Aerie in Veteran Cloudrest.

Soul Savior - Defeat Oaxiltso, Flame-Herald Bahsei, and Xalvakka along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for each of them, without suffering a group member death, within 30 minutes of entering Veteran Rockgrove. Defeating Bask-in-Snakes and the injured Sul-Xan Militants is not required for completion.

IZZEFlameLash

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

All I have to say to that is:

Godslayer of Sunspire is awarded for defeating all encounters in Sunspire within 30 minutes without dying. Additionally, all three bosses need to be defeated on hard mode.

Stainless Siege-breaker - Defeat Yandir the Butcher, Captain Vrol, and Lord Falgravn along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for all of them, without suffering a group member death, within 35 minutes of entering Kyne's Perch village in Veteran Kyne's Aegis.

The Path to Alaxon - Defeat Z'Maja, Siroria, Relequen, and Galenwe in the same battle without suffering a group member death within 15 minutes of entering the Cloudrest Aerie in Veteran Cloudrest.

Soul Savior - Defeat Oaxiltso, Flame-Herald Bahsei, and Xalvakka along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for each of them, without suffering a group member death, within 30 minutes of entering Veteran Rockgrove. Defeating Bask-in-Snakes and the injured Sul-Xan Militants is not required for completion.

Achievements are making super high dps necessary. But yeah, apparently, it is player base problem, not ZOS issue.

lPeacekeeperl

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

True, I don't think anyone should be leaving based on a week 1 patch.

Old players leaving not only because of Week 1 PTS game state.
Many posts from officials of ZOS shows lack of understanding of current game state and even less interest to old players.

Fore some good reasons comunity interpreted "accessibility" as a some sort of care of elders or disabled persons, but this adressed generaly to newcommers - new players, with new monew. The players who havent yet bought all houses, crowncratest, skilllines, e.t.c.

ApoAlaia

Between Rich's tweet before the patch hit the PTS which was very clearly written from a position of contempt - and made everything about him/his team - and his comments on the live stream, stressing the fact that this had been 'thought through', 'thoroughly tested' and a 'long time in the making', there is a general sentiment - which I personally echo - that they are going to go through with it no matter what.

I see no evidence of any of this being taken on board or even being seen as anything other than us being ridiculous.

To borrow Tom Petty's timeless lyrics we may stand them up on the gates of hell but they won't back down, they will stand their ground.

JustAGoodPlayer

We stop a 1-2 years before. If i can not pass in build and on character i love (my main).

It cost nothing and no reason to even do anything.

It is some scamming like game. Just we want you to do - press skills in sets we want you to use.

Ammm no than you, i want to pass it based on my own skill, not on this. So even will not go.

Sallymen

Hey ZoS it is okay to release new content and not change how classes, skills, and combat work.

Pet

RBAP28 wrote: »

Sure, people are going to leave, but a lot of those people will be back. Not because they agree with the changes, because ESO has no real competition, especially on console. For this reason companies can get away with offering less and less for the same amount of money and making wild game changing swings every update. And I'm sure Zos knows this.

Not true, other genres exist. You don't need to play an MMO after quitting an MMO.

JustAGoodPlayer

To speak honestly - do current combat team make any good changes for last 3 years ? That people really like ?

Why they work as combat team than ?

Really 3 years - no really good changes people like.

The game becomes much worse ?

And i do not say about graphicks/companions.

I really like it, it is really OK.

I always say about balance, because it is really and only really bad part !

Always balance for last 3 years - so pls really just thing about it !

May be just combat team do not do realy good ?

Can combat team pass own content they make ? If no - how can they balance it ?

How can people who can not pass thingth of own creation say about balancing ???

Even if players can pass it, but play only one build - he just will do better for his builds, but if he even can not pass it - how it is even possible to balance ?

Can pass =\= can do good balance.

But last 3 years only bad combat changes ! Do not you think some thing is wrong ?

Sergykid

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Arthtur wrote: »

Yeah, ppl talk about how endgame players are toxic and they u see this...those things....
Seriously, even if endgame community is 5%, how many toxic ppl is there? More than in 95%? Ppl are rly blind... u just need to go read some thread on general subforum to see ppl who are happy that endgame ppl are leaving becuase they arent healthy for the game anyway.

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

prof_doom wrote: »

is the biggest advocate for this game you had

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

All I have to say to that is:

Godslayer of Sunspire is awarded for defeating all encounters in Sunspire within 30 minutes without dying. Additionally, all three bosses need to be defeated on hard mode.

Stainless Siege-breaker - Defeat Yandir the Butcher, Captain Vrol, and Lord Falgravn along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for all of them, without suffering a group member death, within 35 minutes of entering Kyne's Perch village in Veteran Kyne's Aegis.

The Path to Alaxon - Defeat Z'Maja, Siroria, Relequen, and Galenwe in the same battle without suffering a group member death within 15 minutes of entering the Cloudrest Aerie in Veteran Cloudrest.

Soul Savior - Defeat Oaxiltso, Flame-Herald Bahsei, and Xalvakka along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for each of them, without suffering a group member death, within 30 minutes of entering Veteran Rockgrove. Defeating Bask-in-Snakes and the injured Sul-Xan Militants is not required for completion.

as expected, missed my point entirely. How would a player reach the 30 minute mark if he can't join a run?
you first need to finish vSS, then vSS HM, you do it in two hours, then one hour, then over time you may actually be able to do in 30 minutes. But players do not even get to attempt GS if they don't come with the experience from home.
when i finished vSS HM i did it with a chill group that didn't care for dps to be higher than the trial's check requirement. Yeah we had 15 minutes boss fight lass boss, but we did it. And if we continued eventually would have gotten experienced enough to do GS too.
But now? nobody has the patience for a long ongoing prog, and most eventually give up anyway for valid reasons too. Even if the dps is enough for a GS, it's not fast enough to skip possible mistakes like a 2nd wave of ice atro before frost boss flies. and instead of replacements you just abandon the whole thing. So you don't take people unable to skip mechanics in the first place.

PrincessOfThieves

Sergykid wrote: »

none of them have the patience to properly run those trials the way those were meant to, they want them finished in 30 minutes or they don't even attempt. They will only run with people whose dps can skip mechanics or ads waves with, or won't bother. Having such a limited and strict attitude will lead to this thing, keeping away any potential completers.
And yes some endgame raiders are viewed as unnecessarily toxic, for justified reason most probably. Not the "i am better than you" type of arrogance, just snob.

I'm not an endgame player, but this doesn't make sense even to me.
You can check trial and dungeon achievements, all of them have very strict time limits. So there's no point in attempting a trifecta if you know that you don't have enough dps, it's just physically impossible. No one would start recruiting weaker players for trifectas, they would just disband the group and move on to another game.
Also, losing endgame players is not a good thing for more casual players. They make guides and test builds for us, some of them host training runs etc.

Pet

Sergykid wrote: »

maybe u're just overrating, it's understandable that you may have some specific likeliness for how he does what he does but that's subjective on your part, he also indirectly supports toxicity too.

Objection speculation, wtb receipts.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

All I have to say to that is:

Godslayer of Sunspire is awarded for defeating all encounters in Sunspire within 30 minutes without dying. Additionally, all three bosses need to be defeated on hard mode.

Stainless Siege-breaker - Defeat Yandir the Butcher, Captain Vrol, and Lord Falgravn along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for all of them, without suffering a group member death, within 35 minutes of entering Kyne's Perch village in Veteran Kyne's Aegis.

The Path to Alaxon - Defeat Z'Maja, Siroria, Relequen, and Galenwe in the same battle without suffering a group member death within 15 minutes of entering the Cloudrest Aerie in Veteran Cloudrest.

Soul Savior - Defeat Oaxiltso, Flame-Herald Bahsei, and Xalvakka along with all their hostile followers after raising the challenge banner for each of them, without suffering a group member death, within 30 minutes of entering Veteran Rockgrove. Defeating Bask-in-Snakes and the injured Sul-Xan Militants is not required for completion.

Tbh, a lot of the tris will be fine (GH, IR, TTT, DB) but the others that really have a tight time crunch (GS, PB, SS) are going to become practically impossible for most groups tbh, the only reason everyone has GS now is because we're doing 30k more dps per player than what we should be.

Tandor

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Between Rich's tweet before the patch hit the PTS which was very clearly written from a position of contempt - and made everything about him/his team - and his comments on the live stream, stressing the fact that this had been 'thought through', 'thoroughly tested' and a 'long time in the making', there is a general sentiment - which I personally echo - that they are going to go through with it no matter what.

I see no evidence of any of this being taken on board or even being seen as anything other than us being ridiculous.

To borrow Tom Petty's timeless lyrics we may stand them up on the gates of hell but they won't back down, they will stand their ground.

The precedent for that is, of course, the switch to account-wide achievements. They tried to make out it was something everyone wanted, then when they realised it wasn't they put it down to performance improvements. When it was clear that wasn't believed and testers were coming up with solid concerns they released a Q&A sheet that didn't address the concerns, failed to engage with the players over it and went ahead with it all anyway. The only slight saving grace is that one or two of the concerns have been quietly addressed in subsequent patches. I would expect a similar approach to these combat changes.

SaintSubwayy

RBAP28 wrote: »

Sure, people are going to leave, but a lot of those people will be back. Not because they agree with the changes, because ESO has no real competition, especially on console. For this reason companies can get away with offering less and less for the same amount of money and making wild game changing swings every update. And I'm sure Zos knows this.

This is sadly in most cases not true for MMO's.
If a player activly decides to leave a MMO the chance of him returning in the future is less than 10%.
This is based on the "punishing" nature of missing content in MMO's. If you leave ESO for one year, you'll be behind on atleast 4 Dungeons, 1 Trial, all the gear dropping in there, maybe you'll need to lvl a new toon, since a new class might be OP at the time of your return. Just to name a few.

The same things were said on the Morrowind Patchnotes...."those sustainnerfs wont hurt the game, many players will return" yet the Endgame community got crippled (IMO it didnt really recover till this day) due to the ammount of ppl leaving ESO because they wanted to play Endgame Trials and not a "How to sustain Simulator".

I wont say its excactly the same now, but it has some terrifying similarities.
I understand ZOS's Idea to lower overall DPS, and I'd be fine with that as long as it happens in a somewhat decent way. However they decided once again to bring out their Caterpiller D11 Bulldozer and just wreck most things we have.

Instead of nerfing everything across the board, it maybe would have made more sense to slightly nerf the sets which let the top players overperform, and additionally make those sets easier to use, so the average player gets lifted up closer to top players.
A great example for this would be the Siroria Set from Couldrest. Maybe make it give X less SD&WD overall, but easier to keep the stacks....a great player who was able to keep his stack up in a high movement fight before the changes, would still be able to keep them, but it'd be less strong. But an average player who had troubles keeping the stacks up would become more powerfull, due to it being easier to keep the stacks.

Once again ZOS failed to "Lower the ceiling and raise the floor", instead they just dropped both -> Ergo the difference between good and average players will be the same percentage wise after this patch.

shadyjane62

Tandor wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Between Rich's tweet before the patch hit the PTS which was very clearly written from a position of contempt - and made everything about him/his team - and his comments on the live stream, stressing the fact that this had been 'thought through', 'thoroughly tested' and a 'long time in the making', there is a general sentiment - which I personally echo - that they are going to go through with it no matter what.

I see no evidence of any of this being taken on board or even being seen as anything other than us being ridiculous.

To borrow Tom Petty's timeless lyrics we may stand them up on the gates of hell but they won't back down, they will stand their ground.

The precedent for that is, of course, the switch to account-wide achievements. They tried to make out it was something everyone wanted, then when they realised it wasn't they put it down to performance improvements. When it was clear that wasn't believed and testers were coming up with solid concerns they released a Q&A sheet that didn't address the concerns, failed to engage with the players over it and went ahead with it all anyway. The only slight saving grace is that one or two of the concerns have been quietly addressed in subsequent patches. I would expect a similar approach to these combat changes.

Quietly addressed in later patches is not nearly good enough.

Are you going to dig up the corpse of my Templar and try to revive her, because she is dead in the water if this patch goes through?

And yes people are leaving week one of PTS notes and all the evidence of those who have tried it. I stopped playing PTS at AWA debacle.

I went back for a week when High Isle hit PTS a week there and I was done. I did not buy High Isle and am quietly liquidating my account.

I was going to play with alts and crafting and doing other stuff in game while waiting for the end of my sub, but I'm too dang old to waste a minute waiting for it to be fixt.

I was at Galaxies. This feels just like that. People like me are already gone. I am writing off 250 days of sub time and have downloaded two other games and already subbed to another.
I can't really afford another sub now but what I see from ESO is not something to look forward to but something to look bakc on. Been in MMO's since they started and have already retired many of them.

Don't look forward to leaving but am already liquidating my account.

I have 72 million in gold to give away and a craft bag full of gold stuff.

Some people are going to be very happy I'm leaving and that's ok. I'm tired of being called toxic by clearly toxic white knights trying to counter very real changes.

Will be one of the knee jerking tired and disappointed now watching ESO in my rear view mirror.

Games don't last forever.

Whiskey_JG

I think its about time, we got some ACTUAL statistics, on how many active players there are in game.

a) How many of those have cleared a vet trial
b) how many of those cleared HMs of trials
c) how many of those cleared a trifecta

ideally for each trial exists. The 600 character figure for vRG HM is really worrying as that shows u how difficult that is. Keep in mind those are characters, NOT player accounts. I know 3 people that cleared vRG HM on at least 2 characters, so the number of players in reality is A LOT smaller than 600.

Sync01

People started leaving before this, but for many players this was the last drop.
It's not just the proposed changes, but the sentiment expressed by ZOS.

I honestly don't see how I can stay if these changes goes live. Most of my community will be gone, and while I don't dislike overland content I've already done it all. Trials are what I enjoy and there will be few players left who are on the same level or above me, essentially making it way too difficult to find a group where I feel like I'm getting challenged.

I have spent hundreds of hours on hosting training runs, teaching players about mechanics & skills, how to read logs, how to set up addons etc because we need more players in the upper end. But now it feels like there's no point to it any more. It honestly makes me sad to see how ZOS is effectively killing their own game.

prof_doom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJbVviAuVg&ab_channel=NefasQS

Another Nefas video - Craglorn empty during prime time on a weekend.

Matteo11

Feels like ZOS just shifted to high gear on speed running ESO's decline.

sneakymitchell

prof_doom wrote: »

This video is Nefas commenting on the disbanding of One More Pull
TL;DW - They're leaving because they can't get enough people that can reliably do end game content. They point out that there's only 600 characters that have actually managed to finish VRG HM, and odds are a lot of those characters are from the same accounts.

Also - Nefas is taking a week off to recharge and reevaluate.
Seriously... Nefas is the biggest advocate for this game you had, and he's just about had it.

Nefas is taking a break since there has been a lot of angry going on with both sides and he is getting exhausted with eso.

prof_doom

Matteo11 wrote: »

Feels like ZOS just shifted to high gear on speed running ESO's decline.

Assuming they're NOT actively trying to wreck it, they still have a chance to save things here, but it's gonna have to be pretty drastic.
They're gonna have to pretty much cancel U35, outside of putting out the new dungeons.
They're gonna have to issue a public apology for certain comments that have been made.
They're gonna have to give us some kind of sign that they intend to listen to the players, something like re-launching the class advocate program.