Yes, people are leaving, and yes, it's because of this patch

GetAgrippa

If you want a trial guild with fewer restrictions on who can play, you can... you know, start one.

Sergykid

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

I think some people are forgetting that this game is supposed to be played how you want. It means that people like you should be able to do what they want without being accused of gatekeeping.
It's really disturbing how this whole debacle turned into a crusade against "elitists", people like Nefas and Skinny Cheeks are getting a lot of hate, apparently.

nobody accuses others of gatekeeping, everyone plays how they want.
but if you look for people for a trifecta, and that trifecta can be completed by someone with 80-90k dps, you don't take him because he's too low dps for your preferences, then go and complain that there's nobody to do a trifecta with, then this is when you can be accused of gatekeeping.

also this whole idea that endgame players are hated feels like is generating more heat than the actual haters. Drama for something that doesn't exist creates that something in order for the drama to be. I didn't even see this hate you talk about not even on those players you specified, one hater here and there is actually completely normal. One of them maybe is overrated and given too much credit for the amount of effort actually putting for other's experience in the game, but that's not a reason for general public hate, which i believe is just speculation.

JustAGoodPlayer

Because of last patch where they nerf HA sets i leave for half of a year, but because of this only PTS for now changes i am still hear )))

Faulgor

Grendalism wrote: »

Thought:
With Bethesda launching Starfield later this year, could it be this is a ploy to drive down usage of ESO resources (due to declining player base) to re divert into Starfield support?

Bad news friend, Starfield was delayed to first half of 2023.

So I doubt that's it.

Hapsmo911

For me personaly, I play these games for the end game. Sometimes that means pvp, or in this case, trials. I do that not because it's easy, but because it's hard. That's what gives me a sense of accomplishment. I would guess those that push the extreme of the end game are doing it for the same sense of accomplishment. If you want to call them garekeeps, fine. Maybe they are, and maybe they should be. Some content should be left for people that spend the time to make this a second job and smah it. Those are the people that drive me to be better at the level i am at. I will never be at there level but seeing people who are pushs me to be better. Some people couldnt be bothered. They like to quest, follow the story whatever. Thats what makes MMORPG's great imo. There should be content for different types of players. Not sure why we can't have content for each or as best as we can for each. If the try hards want to beat stuff that seems impossible they should have a way to do that. Isn't that why we have hard modes? If casuals want to do trials they should be able to. It's just that the ceiling shouldn't be lowered for one to net a result for the other. Sorry, but that seems lazy on the dev side. It's like they want everyone to have the winning trophy. Where's the sense of accomplishment? There's should be very different levels of meaningful content. This is akin to what Sony did to SWG with the NGE.
To me it's clear with the addition of Oakensoul, and now this patch, whoever is in charge wants the game to be simple. Maybe they have decided its ok to give up a portion of what they have for what they think they may get, as a result. Thats fine. It seems odd thing to do in the timing of the game cycle. I mean how many people are not playing ESO because its not inclusive end game? Makes me wonder what they think is going to happen. One year from now the game explodes with subs? Or are we seeing a test for a game in the works, where we are the BETA? Who knows. Rant over.

GreatGildersleeve

Sync01 wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

I don’t pve anymore but I’ve heard stories of gate keeping almost immediately after DSR came out. Regular vDSR runs, no HM or anything, would require a prior clear to get in. That’s gate keeping at its finest.

As far as I can tell one issue here is "I've heard stories...". I don't doubt that someone came across a run that required a prior clear when the trial was newly released, that doesn't mean most runs did.

However - it's common that a group will require a clear for farm runs, because the purpose is to do one or more quick runs to get gear. Having to explain mechanics defeats the purpose of a farm run. You truly think it's gatekeeping to adapt the requirements for the purpose? What about training runs in that case? If a player tries to run ahead and pull all the enemies before the raid leader has explained the mechanics and are then removed from the group... is that gatekeeping?

I don’t actually care what ‘end gamers’ do. I pvp and have fun doing it.

My point is, ‘sources’ is actually my spouse… and has only managed I think 2 vDSR runs since it launched (xbna). She’s in 5 guilds and a few more Discord servers and has managed less than a handful of ‘open’ runs. Gatekeeping or not, that’s just sad.

As for the score pusher trifecta runs, I seriously doubt those would be advertised/‘open’. If they are that’s already a bad sign it won’t complete…

Durham

Crickets from ZOS

MrGhosty

When ESO first launched, I can vividly remember seeing a person ask an innocuous question in zone chat in Kenarthis roost (first week of launch) and get absolutely destroyed by people berating them for not already knowing that very obvious answer. This was not the last of such interactions I would see on the regular, it was so bad that I opted to create a guild with the express purpose of having a place people could ask "stupid" questions without getting their head torn off.

When I came back during Elsweyr, I was blown away by how helpful and friendly people were in chat (not counting the expected trolls and pot stirrers). Not only zone chat, but there are more creators out there making guides and videos that break down and explain all of the aspects of the game. Having requirements for a person to join a trials run is not gatekeeping, it's not gatekeeping any more than irl sports teams having try outs to see who gets to play. For every strict, sweaty trials guild there are just as many if not more guilds that are trying to build communities and host low stress trials runs. It is worrying to see so many community leaders feeling defeated and contemplating leaving the game, that will have an extremely negative knock on effect for the game as a whole. Those leaders who want to see endgame grow, and help people progress are the ones currently on the chopping block and it is sad to see people saying things like "good riddance" or otherwise celebrating the fact that the game population is at risk. Zos doesn't run the game as a goodwill operation, the lights will only stay on as long as the game remains profitable. They seem focused on churn and onboarding new players, but without experienced players sharing builds/guides/whatever they will be lost and less likely to get engaged and spend.

Good games need to balance between new and existing players in order to have the most healthy ecosystem (i.e. profitable for the company) If I had come back in Elsweyr and not had access to those helpful guilds, guides, videos, and players I doubt I would have bothered staying more than a brief check in and as someone who currently subs and buys the new chapters with their silly "deluxe" bonuses, that is a substantial chunk of change from one player and I can't imagine my mindset about things is unique.

All this long winded response is to say, try to have some empathy for players other than yourself. Disagreeing is fine but no one deserves to be berated because they express concern or upset that a game they love is at risk of becoming unrecognizable. We "casuals" demand that veteran players not demean or belittle us, yet when the time for us to stand as a community arises we segregate ourselves into our little clusters of vested interest with little to no thought how things are impacted other groups. This is as silly as the Pve/PvP divisions that have existed since day one, we're all ESO players.

Mr_Stach

GetAgrippa wrote: »

If you want a trial guild with fewer restrictions on who can play, you can... you know, start one.

Then everyone gets mad when you aren't clearing content, then you start introducing restrictions and DPS checks and now you're the Baddie Gatekeeper

Sync01

Sergykid wrote: »

nobody accuses others of gatekeeping, everyone plays how they want.
but if you look for people for a trifecta, and that trifecta can be completed by someone with 80-90k dps, you don't take him because he's too low dps for your preferences, then go and complain that there's nobody to do a trifecta with, then this is when you can be accused of gatekeeping.
.

You're saying that nobody accuses others of gatekeeping and accusing others of gatekeeping in the same paragraph.

Here's the thing though... doing 80-90k on a dummy does not equal doing 80-90k dps in a trial. Even if you are doing 80-90k dps in a trial it still isn't high enough to do the trifecta for RG, and if you do 80-90k dps in CR and aren't allowed to join then I'm going to assume it's for a different reason.

Hygiliack

Yeah, the game is well and alive, first of all, this is vacation season, second, there is always a "The end of the world is near" group, every single large change, and the game just goes on, nothing is going to happen, ESO will continue to live with no issues

Mr_Stach

Hygiliack wrote: »

Yeah, the game is well and alive, first of all, this is vacation season, second, there is always a "The end of the world is near" group, every single large change, and the game just goes on, nothing is going to happen, ESO will continue to live with no issues

Ok, that has nothing to do with the Patch. If nothing changes this one's gonna hit a little different, maybe not apocalyptic, but when you have major End Game Raiding Communities Disband, it's not for nothing.

YandereGirlfriend

Mr_Stach wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

If you want a trial guild with fewer restrictions on who can play, you can... you know, start one.

Then everyone gets mad when you aren't clearing content, then you start introducing restrictions and DPS checks and now you're the Baddie Gatekeeper

There's probably a Breaking Bad quote/meme in here but I'm too lazy to formulate it, haha.

prof_doom

Sync01 wrote: »

Here's the thing though... doing 80-90k on a dummy does not equal doing 80-90k dps in a trial. Even if you are doing 80-90k dps in a trial it still isn't high enough to do the trifecta for RG, and if you do 80-90k dps in CR and aren't allowed to join then I'm going to assume it's for a different reason.

Exactly this. Dummy DPS checks are a thing simply because there's no better marker of performance to check outside of running people through test trials.

A lot of groups still run tanks and healers through test trials because there's nothing to do other than validate that they have useful gear on.

The main reason I see people dropped from a prog group is that they refuse to listen to the raid lead, or keep dying to mechanics that everyone else has gotten.

I'm sorry, but if you're on week 3 or 4 of a VRG progression and you still can't understand what pool to use on Ox, you've got a problem.

KMarble

Tandor wrote: »

The precedent for that is, of course, the switch to account-wide achievements. They tried to make out it was something everyone wanted, then when they realised it wasn't they put it down to performance improvements. When it was clear that wasn't believed and testers were coming up with solid concerns they released a Q&A sheet that didn't address the concerns, failed to engage with the players over it and went ahead with it all anyway. The only slight saving grace is that one or two of the concerns have been quietly addressed in subsequent patches. I would expect a similar approach to these combat changes.

Some issues were patched, yes, but they weren't properly fixed. Random Encounters like for example the Adoring Admirer, was fixed by making him forever available even for characters who have already finished his story arc.

As it stands, for characters who have not done those encounters it seems that everything is working as intended (on our end), but on the back end the game code had to be broken to allow those encounters to be played by all characters over and over again.

I too, expect a similar approach to the combat changes. In fact, the patch notes for the live server seem to point in that direction:

Fixed an issue that caused training dummies to report inflated DPS values.

Emphasis mine. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/612045/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-0-8#latest (scroll down to housing)

Krym

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

My point is, ‘sources’ is actually my spouse… and has only managed I think 2 vDSR runs since it launched (xbna). She’s in 5 guilds and a few more Discord servers and has managed less than a handful of ‘open’ runs. Gatekeeping or not, that’s just sad.

As for the score pusher trifecta runs, I seriously doubt those would be advertised/‘open’. If they are that’s already a bad sign it won’t complete…

because in vsdr the fist boss alone is a lot easier to screw up and wipe the whole group in a single second, compared to say, vss where it's mostly "just stay here and whack the dragon". including some mechanics based on boss hp, and in randoms you get enough parse-pros that confuse it with a dummy and push crap too fast into other phases.
hence people prefer to go with the ones hey know can do it and behave themselves.

Sync01

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

I don’t actually care what ‘end gamers’ do. I pvp and have fun doing it.

My point is, ‘sources’ is actually my spouse… and has only managed I think 2 vDSR runs since it launched (xbna). She’s in 5 guilds and a few more Discord servers and has managed less than a handful of ‘open’ runs. Gatekeeping or not, that’s just sad.

As for the score pusher trifecta runs, I seriously doubt those would be advertised/‘open’. If they are that’s already a bad sign it won’t complete…

And how many runs are there to start with? If she's already cleared it once (as I would assume since you wrote she's joined 2) when why can't she join the ones that require a clear?
I get wanting to do a trial but there are no runs, but that isn't due to "gatekeeping". If you're unhappy with the requirements or the amount of runs available you can always create your own.

GetAgrippa

And honestly, isn't zos the gatekeeper here? They're the ones creating the content with DPS requirements and intensive mechanics. Not the players trying to clear them.

Kite_Cross

Many are leaving on principle too, not just how this plays out in game. Zos does not invest as much as they should into playing the game themselves and are making decisions based on theory, not practice. E.g. the completely broken builds in pvp. And as we all know from build crafting, theory and practice can be very different.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

GetAgrippa

I showed up at a laser tag tournament the other day, armed only with a laser pointer. Can you believe they wouldn't let me play?

Kite_Cross

If zos devs had to face broken pvp builds day in and day out, do you think they would last longer very long?? lol they would instantly be changed and thing would become more balanced, very fast.

Mr_Stach

Kite_Cross wrote: »

Many are leaving on principle too, not just how this plays out in game. Zos does not invest as much as they should into playing the game themselves and are making decisions based on theory, not practice. E.g. the completely broken builds in pvp. And as we all know from build crafting, theory and practice can be very different.

[snip]

One of the largest things that improved the Warframe Beginner experience was the Creative Director going through playing the whole thing. While DE doesn't do a lot of things good, the do a pretty nice job of showing people whats going on and they mostly make decent changes.

[edited to remove quote]

GetAgrippa

Kite_Cross wrote: »

If zos devs had to face broken pvp builds day in and day out, do you think they would last longer very long?? lol they would instantly be changed and thing would become more balanced, very fast.

That's kinda what happened with the snare meta in pvp. Some devs actually played a bg and realized they couldn't "[snip] move." And then they nerfed snares. It was really amusing and enlightening. They weren't aware of the horrible mechanics in their own game until they actually played it on a live stream.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Skjaldbjorn

sneakymitchell wrote: »

I stopped playing for couple months now. Before that I played once a month around.

I just get exhausted by the gatekeepers and just have little time for this game when the vet trails is all about knowing mechanics and doing runs on them over and over to get better. Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that. I know my rotation well enough and players will always make mistakes on their rotations. How when before the dps use to been lower then later on it started to ask for higher and higher which results in high gatekeeping

This speaks volumes, and is a problem within the ESO community. People don't want to invest the time/energy/effort to improve. "Doing target dummies for 100s of hours I will pass on that". Then don't complain when you can't get into a prog because your DPS isn't good enough. Why do people expect things to be handed to them? There is a point where some trials are exceedingly difficult for newer/lower skill players and I think those should be addressed, but I have zero interest in helping someone who isn't willing to help themselves.

And I say this as an "end-game" player who has helped multiple progs over the years. 2 IRs, like 7 GH progs, multiple vCR HM progs, multiple RG progs, multiple GS progs, I am almost always open, willing and ready to offer assistance whether as a fill or sitting in discord to help with strats/progs/concepts the group is trying to master. In fact, I am scheduled to sit in on a GS prog tonight to assist their new MT and offer some tips and advice for how to do specific aspects of the content.

But sure, we're all just toxic gatekeepers who want to "hold you down".

resdayn00

For me this patch is the final sign that the devs simply don't cater to the endgame community and they don't even want to. I'd left the endgame scene behind but as someone who had been there, the frustration is completely valid. These changes are huge steps towards pushing away all hardcore/veteran players in favor of newer, more casual approach players. We've already seen so many signs. The devs not properly listening to the class reps then completely leaving the program behind, the introduction of the companions system, the constant combat changes that were not only uncalled for, but also detrimental to the overall player satisfaction. With the meta constantly changing and people having to adapt, making so drastic changes to a system that's been around for 8 years now is a turning point.

As for me personally, I kept my subsciption going even during my one year hiatus, having been a subscriber for over 6 years. While this is in no way a goodbye post from me, as I'll continue to watch the development of the game, I have recently cancelled my sub after 6 years because I don't like the direction the development is taking, and has taken for the past 2-3 years. I will stick around for some casual aspects of the game, but my interest is waning and I'm worried as to how the game will look like in another 2-3 years. I hope the developers will either change their minds about this patch, or somehow fix these undeniably huge problems.

Kusto

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

prof_doom

Kusto wrote: »

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

So, you haven't read a single thing in this entire forum, then.
There's pages and pages of discussions about how this is going to hurt the people that are just starting to get into Vet Trials far more than it'll affect your oh-so-hated "top 0.00000000000001%"

Skjaldbjorn

Kusto wrote: »

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

Having achievements in the game that are no longer attainable for those that have spent months up to now progging them could be an actual class on god awful game design/development.

Lady_Galadhiel

Kusto wrote: »

The top 0.0001% cant do some trifectas anymore, awww. The game will be fine for the rest. Most of the playerbase doesn't even do any vet content but being over dramatic here for some reason.

No one should be ignorant and belive this patch will only hurt the endgame players, in fact, the casuals will suffer far much more.

GetAgrippa

I'm definitely seeing some gatekeeping and toxicity in this thread and it ain't coming from veteran or elite players. That's for sure.