Why are sorcerers nerfed so much?

MetallicMonk

Embarrassing "changes" to sorcerer, still an absolutely terrible class and they've removed so much of the fun out of it to play. There is almost no reason for anyone to play sorc, especially magsorc in PvP. Crazy with all of the videos and forum posts by tons of people they're ok with just leaving it the way it is.

No point in playing one in PvP unless your standards of performance are really low. You are still a burst class that gets out bursted by almost every other class in the game even pressure based classes, your defenses are still the worst of any class in the game(no access to a reliable burst heal and shields are a joke even if you bad players think they're OP because you do no damage and have bad builds), and your damage is still the most predictable and most avoidable of other classes in the game(literally just roll and almost nothing a sorcerer does will hit you). Streak is the only good and unique thing this class still offers, aside from negate sometimes in a group setting.

Thank you for doing almost nothing to help the class despite large amounts of posts on the PTS forum/PvP forum and content creators also voicing their displeasure of playing a class that has 0 strengths and 0 identity at this point.

I guess if stamsorc can get a decent parse on a non moving dummy purely single target that's good enough it can remain an absolute joke of a class everywhere else, very cool!!!

Dagobertfuk

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Katlefiya

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, [snip]

As if other classes don't have these "copy-paste" builds....

Dagobertfuk

Katlefiya wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, [snip]

As if other classes don't have these "copy-paste" builds....

You are right but is this thread about those classes?

Thecompton73

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, you guys deserved this. Just disgusting those copy paste andys.

As if other classes don't have these "copy-paste" builds....

You are right but is this thread about those classes?

Your Op was more an aside about players and reddit and copy past builds than anything to do with Sorc's as a class. It's just something you wanted to get off your chest and is completely unrelated to how the class actually plays or the changes on the PTS.

acastanza_ESO

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, [snip]

So because one BowSorc build is overperforming the entire class deserves to be dumpstered?
Look, people were playing BowSorc (not me, I didn't like it) because Sorcerer is supposed to be the archetypical Wizard class (since ESO doesn't have a real one), so people made them as their mains. But playing Sorcerer as an actual spellcaster sucks right now so they found a good build that actually works and switched to it because people want to play their mains.

But for those of us who stayed playing it as a spellcaster, if you don't take those stam skills you're completely ineffective at literally anything.

You can't get kills in PVP unless you steal them with Mages Wrath (or morphs), you can't burst someone down because your Frags is never there when you need it and you can't hard cast it effectively in PVP anyway, you can't survive because you have no in-class heals worth a damn (matriarch is always the first thing to get killed, then you follow shortly after the second you try to recast it) and your shields have been turned into tissue paper. Until crystal weapon all a sorcerer could do was streak away and pray you could find the ult for overload before they caught you. Or be a group play negate bot.

That's what ZOS has pushed us back to here. Only worse because now ranged light attacks are a complete joke and our crappy heal from Crit surge is further in the toilet because of the sticky-DOT changes.

MashmalloMan

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Since the most sorcs cant come up with an own setup and only copy marrohirs bow sorc build from reddit, [snip]

The reality is most people who abused that build running around with bow + Savage WW and Oakensoul are not Sorc mains, they're bandwaggoners that hop from 1 OP setup to the next, leaving nerfs in their wake. The same people that jumped to 1 shot Sorc that basically got proc CDs added to the game then left the class entirely when it was nerfed. The same people that jumped to shock heavy attack set stacking when the sets added their damage to each tick. It's always the same people that chase the most busted builds because they have more fun winning than they do playing a class they enjoy, they enjoy all the classes.

I played a few BGs a week or 2 after the live patch dropped, I was melted by 3-4 ranged Stam Sorcs with insane preasure and I just said nope, not interested.

I haven't touched BGs since and I use to play it everyday in previous patches, despite the CW buff, I have yet to really enjoy it on live and I've mained Stam Sorc since launch. I'd rather play BGs when Dark Convergence was at it's worst, thats say something. No interest to play something so busted, nor a 1 bar build.

Blame falls on:

1. ZOS for overly buffing CW 1 patch in the name of making it "unique" to only over buff it despite feedback saying they went too far.
2. ZOS for allowing clearly OP sets to reach live server - again, ignoring feedback.
3. ZOS for nerfing an entire class because of 2 sets when the problems they quoted for changes were never present before those sets were abused in the first place.
4. Bandwagoners.

Tannus15

ok, so here is some initial testing for bound armaments and crystal weapon.
my initial impression is that crystal weapon and bound armaments are in a much better spot.
i haven't tested anything other than just a basic parse

mag sorc, crystal weapon & bound armaments 101k dps




EU is on the server now so I had to make a new character, so i'm running kilt instead of mora so it's not an exact comparison, but this build was doing 96k last week.

on a side note, i actually really like that i can see the crystal weapon extra damage separately so i know how many extra hits i'm getting and what it's worth dps wise.

this is FAR better than what we had in PTS1

MashmalloMan

@Tannus15 Thanks for the parse. Thats good to see.

For those not aware, CW now has the same cost of regular stam/melee spammables at 2700 * 0.85, aka 2295. This wasn't listed anywhere in the notes.

While it's better than week 1, it's still not what I'd call a great or unique class spammable, I don't find a dummy parse to be the best way to illustrate that, but it certainly helps.

The takeaway is you're no longer punished for not properly weaving a skill inbetween itself, you're at least getting your money's worth for the 2295 stamina you spent in comparison to other spammables. The 6 seconds ensures you can manage to proc it. The 30% extra damage tick on the follow up ends up just being a plus for the cost you spent if you happen to weave it as intended.

Crsystal Weapon still has the problem of the ranks only providing a bonus to the penetration granted. Eg. at rank 1 pen = 700, rank 4 = 1000. This is a lame ranking decision.

Other similar skills like Crushing Weapon or Surprise Attack gain about 1% damage per rank, which puts them above the melee damage standard they're based on.

Surprise Attack doesn't rank up in off balance, crit chance or sundered effectiveness so why does Crystal Weapon? It's arbitrary.

I'd like to see 1 or all of few things changed:

1. Ranking changed from the Pen bonus to base tooltip (results in about 4.4% damage buff).
2. Pen increased from 1k to a larger number. We've got spammables handing out 300 damage, 1k pen seems very low.
3. The Pen completely removed in favour of Sundered like Surprise Attack. This would keep it different from Crushing Weapon's Major Breach, offering more pen than the 1k, but having it capped as it's a named debuff. This would also boost the dps of the spammable by a small margin making it more competitive to universal skills like Wrecking Blow, Silver Shards, Flurry, Snipe or Crushing Weapon.. All of which currently have larger tooltips, deflating any purpose the extra 30% tick gives on CW.

Class spammables should be unique and powerful, not underwhelming and scratching at the fence between being viable vs other universal spammables. This goes for Jabs which is seeing similar treatment.

If it was up to me, I'd remove the -10% cost on the next skill cast to make more room as Sorc has more than enough sustain related passives.

Real Quick... Bound Araments is worth using now, no complaints there, but I still which they'd give it some much needed quality of life:

1. Don't like the 8% Stamina, weak in comparison to the 300 damage floating around other classes, but if it had to stay, at least make it attached to the active portion of the skill instead of for passively slotting. Gone are the days where Stam Sorcs double bar Bound Armaments, please fix this.
2. Give 2 daggers for a heavy attack like NB's bow proc.
3. Think about increasing the duration of all skills like this to 60s baseline as they're not fun to manage. This should of been a priority for a patch that was suppose to make skill management easier.
4. If they won't increase the duration, bare minimum let us refresh the duration when we have 1 dagger and no target. It's extremely clunky in it's current design.
5. Can the skill be less telegraphed at 0.3s cast time intervals, it takes 1.2s to completely fire off and that is coupled with minimum projectile travel time, it's basically the easiest skill to dodge in the game.

Tannus15

Honestly crystal weapon feels really good, i like the change they made.

it's slightly less dps than crushing weapon on the raw spammable but the extra hits make up the difference, putting it ahead even when you factor in spell orb
it procs all the good sorc passives including blood magic, it gives some sustain benefits to all your skills and you're not punished for casting it twice in a row, instead you're rewarded when you can manage to alternate casting times.

bound armaments feels slightly nerfed from where it was, but it's not trash anymore and definitely worth running again.
the pets are still nerfed, i guess they are classified as "stick" dots and the atro really is there for the group synergy more than solo single target dps

lightning flood actually puts out decent dps now as a viable cleave skill and the cost reduction on aoe's actually make it so they are sustainable now.

dps is still WAY down at least at first glance at 100kish, more like 90k on live once you factor in the pts dummy buffs and if you're not running rele...

i'd say sorc is still not doing enough single target damage to compensate for it's utter lack of cleave damage, but our stam morphs are no longer useless.

BalticBlues

MagSorcs once were the best MagClass in PvP.
At that time, DKs were underdogs.

Today, after many buffs, DKs are the best MagClass in PvP.
Today, after many nerfs, MagsSorcs are underdogs.

Yes, this is change, but how is this improvement?
Has the word "balance" any meaning in ESO?

Pelanora

Furthermore many / most buff sets wont work well on Sorcs (epsecially stam Sorcs)

Why won't they? Which (important) sets don't work on sorcs/stam sorcs?

Cirantille

Sorcerer was never S++ tier or something that deserved this many nerfs. It was working just good.
I kept telling to myself and others that "I hope they don't touch Sorcerer, because it is balanced and performs well."
I was hoping they would bring other magicka specs to Sorcerer level for variety of choices.
But they went with opposite and nerfed Sorcerer, brought Magplar and Magdk to top.
Now these two are nerfed something else will come up top.

birdik

On live and pts i do more dps that my main stamblade and ppl still complaining..

MetallicMonk

birdik wrote: »

On live and pts i do more dps that my main stamblade and ppl still complaining..

Nobody cares about a standstill dummy parse with an overbuffed daedric prey instead of literally any of their other awful abilities being buffed. Class is hot garbage in PvP with nerfs that don't even make sense like mines. They nerfed things people hardly use lmao.

Holycannoli

Tannus15 wrote: »

i'd say sorc is still not doing enough single target damage to compensate for it's utter lack of cleave damage, but our stam morphs are no longer useless.

No longer useless compared to original U35 patch notes or no longer useless compared to current live?

I've been a sorcerer main since early access 2014. Imperial stam sorc. It only recently felt good to play, mainly because of Crystal Weapon and ultimates (Greater Atro mostly, and Negate in PvP).

The class was basically Crit Surge, Dark Deal, Streak and weapon skills. I got used to it. I never got around to using Bound Armaments after it was changed years ago from giving you silver armor. Then Crystal Weapon came along and we finally had a more spammable class skill. Was it overtuned? Yeah. Did it deserve the nerf it got? Nope, not when light attacks were also nerfed and Crushing Weapon exists. In my opinion class skills should always be more powerful than a similar non-class skill. Atro got nerfed hard so there goes that (I'm a soloer). They also nerfed mines, because I guess mines were too strong?

My stam sorc is still stronger than my gimped magblade though lol. And it's a shame too because I also made him very early on in 2014 and took time to get him looking just right, and he was fun for a while.

Aces-High-82

Crushing/elemental weapon is horrible in cyro as soon as some tiny lag occurs. Crystal weapon on live allows me at least to reliably to medium weave destro properly with CS.

Pelanora

Ahh the forums. Two opposing threads.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7627321#Comment_7627321

MetallicMonk

Pelanora wrote: »

Ahh the forums. Two opposing threads.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7627321#Comment_7627321

It isn't completely false but almost every complaint is based on the fact that crystal weapon on live is too loaded and can be used from range, and the savage werewolf set is completely overtuned.

No good player thinks sorcerer has a good kit in general for PvP.

Pelanora

Navigating the forums for intel on what to play is obviously not as good as playing and learning, but it's hard to play, when you just die. So one navigates the forums. And they can be very conflicting.

Katlefiya

Pelanora wrote: »

Navigating the forums for intel on what to play is obviously not as good as playing and learning, but it's hard to play, when you just die. So one navigates the forums. And they can be very conflicting.

But you should always take into consideration that the PTS forum discusses a different (future) version of the game - the shape of things to come so to speak. Therefore, what appears to be conflicting information may simply be due to the changes ZOS does to the game.

Edit: fixed some typos.

Melzo

Hahah listen to you so the sorcerer is the weakest class in the game. Even with all the nerfs, I find this class to be the absolute strongest. I played eso for 8 thousand hours. Ohhhhh. And most of the time I spent on bg. For three years, I have never doubted that the sorcerer is not in the top line in terms of strength. Even in the stam sorcerer meta, I saw very, very strong mage sorcerers. Killing the sorcerer is the hardest thing in the game. And while he has the strongest abilities in ranged combat. Mines and streak keep enemies away from you. Almost unkillable class. You can kill a sorcerer only if he runs out of mana or you have a combo that kills in two seconds.

By the way.

Mana shields are still strong, but you don't need to play through them. You can play in both heavy and light armor. In melee or ranged combat. With mana shields or self-healing. The sorcerer has the most diverse and effective abilities, unlike the necromancer and overseer, who have only two normal offensive abilities.

I'm disappointed with the damage over time nerf but overall happy with all the changes. I play Necro and he got nerfed too. But vseravno glad because it brought closer to the balance among all classes.