Why are sorcerers nerfed so much?

JustAGoodPlayer

Melzo wrote: »

[snip] I will explain why the sorcerers received a nerf.

In this patch, sorcerers are very strong due to the presence of hybridization and the settlement of crystal weapons. Compared to a necromancer or ranged warden. The crystal does more damage than blastbones, the curse does as much damage as blastbones, and the knives do as much damage as blastbones. Can they give me three blastbones?? Where did we leave off? And three abilities work just as well or even better than blastbones. What can I say??? Stam sorcerers got cursed and 2 hits with crystal weapons. The nerf to crystal weapons will bring the current patch closer to normalization. And nerfing knives leads to normalization for the next patch, because everyone is nerfed there.

So, the conclusion is that these two abilities are nerfed for the current patch, because the sorcerers are too strong, and for the next one, because everyone is nerfed there. If only crystal weapons are nerfed, sorcerers will still be the strongest class in the next patch due to a massive nerf across all classes. Thus, this nerf can be divided into two stages.
1 nerf to crystal weapons for this patch and 2 nerfs to knives for the next one.

[snip] Other classes have much worse nerfs.

[edited for baiting]

If in some one patch you have 20-30% more DPS than others, than next patch you lose it.

It is a hard nerf, but what was a reason to have that difference before, did not you ask yourself, was not you too OP before ?

starkerealm

Didgerion wrote: »

Also no one is talking about it yet, but how exactly stamsorcs are supposed to heal themselves?

EDIT: I've been using my clanfear... but, they nerfed the everliving snot out of it.

JustAGoodPlayer

Vigor / fighter guide heals are always the option.

+ the same time surje is greate too. 30+ seconds buff that each second can heal for 3k + HP. Looks even to OP in compare to all other current skills.

And now it is no stamina or mana - you all are hybrids.

Holycannoli

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

xDeusEJRx

Sorcerer got nerfed so hard because if you destroy any semblance of gameplay by nerfing the entire class the meta hoppers will leave, but so will any mains of the class.

StarOfElyon

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Magsorc indirectly got a nerf just because the only skill carrying it was crystal weapon, not only that but it was also carried by the savage werewolf set which is getting nerfed too. It was basically just a lesser bowsorc lmao. Sorcerer has almost 0 class identity atm and is also just low tier in general.

No sensible player in this game thinks magsorc is strong in PvP atm so you'd be even more wrong on that front.

What are you talking about? Magsorcs are S tier at fighting people at range who aren't even looking at them.

StarOfElyon

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

In no-proc Crystal Weapon is strong, but even stacking crystal weapon with crushing shock, and bound armaments, with oakensoul it can easily be outhealed or tanked through by DKs and Templars, who when go in for the kill now that the sorc is completely out of resources, and Nightblades have easily been able to shade away before the killing blow can come through (and then kill the sorc from behind with an incap). The tooltip on crystal weapon is not that high compared to other skills and it is EXPENSIVE. It finally gives sorc access to good pressure without insane RNG but it still generally relies on having help to get a killing blow. Crystal weapon was ONLY overpowered when stacked with savage werewolf. The SKILL didn't need to be nerfed, the SET did, not both.

I don't use proc sets so this is the problem that I always have. It's not just those two classes, necessarily. My damage can be out healed by lots of classes unless I can time my ultimate just right. And this is why I dislike the nerf. Only because of proc sets were certain specs over performing. But now, even us non-proc users have gotten the nerf sledgehammer instead of just the proc sets being addressed.

Minalan

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

JustAGoodPlayer

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Mr_Stach

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

JustAGoodPlayer

Mr_Stach wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

It is range and i can use it as spammable as an option.

Why you are the one who is correct ? On what do you base your opinion ? On how you want it to be ?

Mr_Stach

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

It is range and i can use it as spammable as an option.

Why you are the one who is correct ? On what do you base your opinion ? On how you want it to be ?

That's just how it's designed, you cast other skills to get the big chunky Crystal Frag Procs. It doesn't matter how I want it to be, it's just how it's designed. But whatevs. if you want to slow cast it, go for it.

OolongSnakeTea

It seems to be the trend- we get one good patch then nerf batted to the extreme. Same could be said for any class performing well 'above expectations'. And thats always going to be figured out by the commmunity too, because of the think-tank behind min-max.

There will always be something to 'nerf' because we work around and try to optimize what is best that situation, and thats the problems with release, nerf and release cycles of dev work.

Luede

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

It is range and i can use it as spammable as an option.

Why you are the one who is correct ? On what do you base your opinion ? On how you want it to be ?

a skill with cast time that only deals competitive damage under procc conditions is not a spammable

Glantir

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Sorcerer got nerfed so hard because if you destroy any semblance of gameplay by nerfing the entire class the meta hoppers will leave, but so will any mains of the class.

Lol

maybe Sorc was to strong on single target, but single target is the only thing where Sorc can shin.
AoE is very bad.

JustAGoodPlayer

Luede wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Na crystal weapon and Savage WW needed nuked, but giving nothing in return to already lacking magsorc and furthermore nerfing mines and bound armaments when the class is already pretty bottom tier is unacceptable.

Didn't need to be nuked, just re-tuned because of the LA damage nerf.

But don't forget about Atro. All of a sudden, after all this time, in July 2022 Atro is OP.

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

You have other magick and ranged morpgh that do x2 damage, or it was removed from you ?

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

It is range and i can use it as spammable as an option.

Why you are the one who is correct ? On what do you base your opinion ? On how you want it to be ?

a skill with cast time that only deals competitive damage under procc conditions is not a spammable

Really ? But it is stil range, and do normal damage. Whyle as example DKs skill is melee.

But if you think it is too OP lets just make both skills ordinary spammables. Sorcs will not do x2 damage on proc and DKs will not.

If you like our skill so much, how about exchange ? I am good with ranged x2 chance spammable.

And you get our melee skill That you need to proc with special not to hard hitting skills

Like such exchange ? ))

Brrrofski

No idea what I'll use to heal as a mag sorc next patch. It was already pretty bad.

So now sorc is the only class without a good burst heal.

Matriarch takes two slots and can die, which makes it pretty bad.

VoidBiscuit

taugrim wrote: »

Inevitable Detonation: LOL nobody runs this. Also, not a spammable
Imbue Weapon: LOL nobody runs this (sadly). Also not a spammable. Also, far weaker than Crystal Weapon: have to cast before each light attack, has shorter duration, and doesn't trigger class passives
Mages Fury: not a spammable. One of the defining abilities of Sorcs without being OP

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Crystal Frag is not a Spammable, Crystal Weapon is. if you use Crystal Frags as a Spammable, you are using it wrong.

Natural selection has failed us

prof_doom

Minalan wrote: »

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

Except they nerfed the ring and the Atro. Why both?

Holycannoli

Minalan wrote: »

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.

Yet somehow the SET wasn’t broken, it was the skill. An ultimate that now does less DPS than caltrops.

Not to mention you have Gilliam nerfing every Sorc skill that kills him.

PS: if Crystal weapon needed a nerf, then what why is whip still so strong?

Bad decisions all around. Fire the combat team please.

Crystal Weapon + bow was the problem IMO. It needed some fine tuning. Not the outright nerf it got but some fine tuning.

Atro has been fine for 8 years and all of a sudden someone higher up thinks it's OP and now it's gutted so bad no sorc is even gonna bother with it. They'll spam shooting stars or toxic barrage instead. I've already transitioned to it on live in preparation.

Not that it matters because after U35 my stam sorc main will be demoted to daily writ crafter. I'm leveling my magblade and stamblade to replace him. It pains me as he's my first character and my main but he's being gutted.

davelbier

Holycannoli wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

We all know atro was nerfed because Oakensoul people were pulling out two of them at a time.



Not that it matters because after U35 my stam sorc main will be demoted to daily writ crafter. I'm leveling my magblade and stamblade to replace him. It pains me as he's my first character and my main but he's being gutted.

my magsorc is pvp only and i love him, but ive already been playing the stamblade more as he got weaker. the magsorc has been relegated to supporting roles usually -- using PB and some AOEs to soften people up while throwing out some basic radiating regen heals.

i dont really like the warden or necro much at all, templar can be fun if you want some kills but isnt as interesting to play to me long term. im kinda tired of the magdk. i dont really want to juggle multiple stamblades. big ole meh.

i regret buying high isle at this point. i just need to find another game and uninstall this thing.

Tannus15

@Luede @Mr_Stach Crystal frags has been used as a spammable for magsorc in PvE for over 12 months now, especially for DW builds until they changed crystal weapon.

All the very good sorcs have been running that, but I personally hate the 0.8 second cast time so I prefer to use a spammable and frags just for the proc.

with the current meta of wearing medium armour sets, I find a stamina based spammable to be the best option even for mag sorc, hence crushing weapon.

Mr_Stach

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Luede @Mr_Stach Crystal frags has been used as a spammable for magsorc in PvE for over 12 months now, especially for DW builds until they changed crystal weapon.

All the very good sorcs have been running that, but I personally hate the 0.8 second cast time so I prefer to use a spammable and frags just for the proc.

with the current meta of wearing medium armour sets, I find a stamina based spammable to be the best option even for mag sorc, hence crushing weapon.

I'm gonna tell you a secret, I'm not a "Very Good Sorc" lol

FlopsyPrince

starkerealm wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Gilliam only plays nightblade, not Sorc. That’s why Sorc is trash in a nutshell.

He won’t play Sorc, it’s not fun for him or anyone else at this point.

Translation: He doesn't want to play sorc, so he's making it easier to farm sorc kills.

Most PvP changes seem to be aimed at making it easier for PvPers to gank PvEers. Hopefully not really true, but that is what it seems like since I am the latter.

I lost my explosive Crystal Blast for the stam version, now the stam version I could never use properly is getting nuked. I like my pet sorc main, but boy is it annoying to keep seeing it get nerfed!

xylena_lazarow

Didgerion wrote: »

Also no one is talking about it yet, but how exactly stamsorcs are supposed to heal themselves?

back bar Blessing of Restoration spam

MetallicMonk

Sorc is just really in an inexcusable state; in PvP classes that are based on pressure more than burst (DK and plar) not only have much more pressure but they have harder burst abilities than you (whip/PL) and they have better ways to secure them while your underwhelming burst is completely rollable by everyone, and every class in the game has better healing and defense than you currently.

In PvE sorc has abysmal cleave which is an element present in a large amount of fights that lets other classes already pull ahead of it, not to mention sorc only had strong single target which is now gutted as well.

So all in all sorc really offers nothing in pvp, every class has more to offer save maybe warden; and after this patch even they will probably look more appealing than sorc, and in PvE you're also now underperforming in every aspect compared to other classes and all you really offer is minor prophecy.

Amazing class really, I love having no AoE in PVE but still not even doing more single target DPS. I especially love being a burst class in PvP but for some reason classes who are designed for pressure not burst have even better burst than me that is unrollable or otherwise pretty much guaranteed. Sprinkle in the most underwhelming defense of all time comparatively to all other classes with powerful burst heals and you've got a mix for an incredible time playing.

Thank you for making this class excel absolutely nowhere in the game, truly engaging gameplay.

MetallicMonk

Also to specifically speak about magsorc/sorc in PvP which is where most of my time is spent, here are more examples of other players voicing their frustrations about this class offering nothing and having the fun of playing it consistently removed. Also keep in mind that even after both of these videos were posted all of the sets/abilities that were even keeping sorc somewhat usable have been nerfed or gutted because the only thing helping this garbage class was overtuned sets or one overtuned ability. Also on top of that they've nerfed a couple other abilities like mines/atro just for fun and to make sure nobody either dies to this class or has any fun playing it whatsoever.


https://youtu.be/Sm4XcgWQR9o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwOWOgZij7M

acastanza_ESO

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Sorc is just really in an inexcusable state; in PvP classes that are based on pressure more than burst (DK and plar) not only have much more pressure but they have harder burst abilities than you (whip/PL) and they have better ways to secure them while your underwhelming burst is completely rollable by everyone, and every class in the game has better healing and defense than you currently.

In PvE sorc has abysmal cleave which is an element present in a large amount of fights that lets other classes already pull ahead of it, not to mention sorc only had strong single target which is now gutted as well.

So to recap sorc really offers nothing in pvp, every class has more to offer save maybe warden; and after this patch even they will probably look more appealing than sorc, and in PvE you're also now underperforming in every aspect compared to other classes and all you really offer is minor prophecy.

Amazing class really, I love having no AoE in PVE but still not even doing more single target DPS. I especially love being a burst class in PvP but for some reason classes who are designed for pressure not burst have even better burst than me that is unrollable or otherwise pretty much guaranteed. Sprinkle in the most underwhelming defense of all time comparatively to all other classes with powerful burst heals and you've got a mix for an incredible time playing.

Thank you for making this class excel absolutely nowhere in the game, truly engaging gameplay.

As a MagSorc main this is EXACTLY how I feel about it. The class is just dead. It's literally only purpose is to be a PVP negatebot (less and less useful the more people get pushed to sam skill by the braindead combat design direction) and to use Mage's Wrath to killsteal. It isn't fun, it isn't good, it's outperformed in every PVE area by every other class excpt extremely niche cases. I don't understand why ZOS has their collective heads burred so firmly in the sand about the completely unacceptable state of Sorcerer. Crystal Weapon - was the first worthwhile thing any sorcerer mag or stam has gotten in so many patches and because of it ZOS saw fit to gut everything even remotely good from the entire class. It really makes me want to quit.

Mr_Stach

So Skinny Cheeks laid out some Tables in his last video for PvE Damage stuff for AoEs , some interesting things going on.
Here's Sorc:

Here's Warden:


I don't want to make the judgement call on "who's worse off" both are just hurting really bad.

I would also like to take the time to point out that Deadly Cloak is WAAAAY too strong look at that damage

Tannus15

bound armaments right at the bottom *sigh*

ok, now here is some maths on why crystal weapon is so bad. SO BAD

For this comparison I'm going to compare it to Crushing Weapon because the skills are basically the same. Any situation you might use crystal weapon you can swap in crushing weapon and be fine. range builds, melee builds, it doesn't matter.

lets say we put down our dots and we get 10 seconds of just spammable time.

the best case for crystal weapon is to alternate it with another spammable, so lets go with crystal weapon and crushing shock. CW, CS, CW, CS etc
you end up with 10 CW hits and 5 CS hits
according to skinny's spread sheet, that's 24710 total damage.

now lets say I do 10 crushing weapon hits.
again, according to skinny's data it does 25040 damage (including spell orb)

so taking 2 skill slots alternating the crystal weapon cast with the crushing shock cast it's less damage than just crushing weapon.
but it gets worse. I've got an extra skill slot, and i'm not using crystal weapon so i slot crystal frags. over 10 casts, lets say it procs twice (it's now 8 crushing weapon, 2 procs).
now we're looking at 28278 damage over 10 seconds.

so we have a significantly harder rotation that does less damage under all circumstances with less bar space. That's not good. That is in fact, bad.

I always thought the problem was that ZoS balanced by spreadsheet, but it turns out they aren't even doing that.
The moment you look at the numbers it's just bad in every way.

To return to bound armaments for 1 moment, 4 stacks does 2516 damage. 1 hit of crushing weapon does 2504 (factoring in spell orb). apparently the reward for working the stacking building mini game into your rotation is 12 damage. except you need to spend 1 spammable every 40 seconds to enable the proc. If you hit BA perfectly every time it's up you gain 120 damage. And then you lose 1 spammable to activate it and lose 2504 damage.
so best case for Bound Armaments is a net loss of 2384 damage according to the spreadsheet.

The place where Crystal weapon should be gaining damage is when a spammable is missed to cast something like prey and scamp.

I can add this into the above calculations by removing 1 crushing shock and 1 crushing weapon for prey
I will also remove 1 crushing weapon and 1 crushing shock for the scamp (frag procs are unaffected)

now we have 6 crushing weapon, 2 frags, prey and scamp giving us 23270 spammable damage.

10 crystal weapon, 3 crushing shock, prey and scamp giving us 20534 spammable damage.

HOORAY FOR MATHS!