Can We Be Better, Please?

RoninOfNight

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Will I quit the game? No. But I've noticed I have stopped playing it nearly as much as I was, and I haven't bought any crowns or anything in months. I am doing more casual and overland content, less pvp and end game raiding.
For me? Account wide achievements were the beginning of the end. Too many of my friends quit playing, too many of the end game community left. I still have trifectas to get, and hardmodes to clear, but I've given up on the idea of actually doing it, because forming a team is an impossible uphill battle, and look at these patch notes-- they just made it 10x harder, for NO reason.
That was my biggest enjoyment of the game, and it's gone. I'm still playing. I'm still having fun. But once I run out of quests-- and I will-- I will naturally move on to different games.

Sad. but I have the same sentiments.

ManM

The thing is, the development has already been done. It's on PTS. Money has been spent to make those changes. At this point, if there is something fundamentally wrong about the patch, the only way to motivate a change in course is to demonstrate financially that it isn't viable.

We know which direction the devs are taking the game. Combat rotations are becoming slower and more monotonous. Gear, classes, stats... all are becoming homogenized and standardized so your choices matter less. Encounters are going to take longer due to lower DPS. Healing won't be sufficient for top-end content until they rebalance the dungeons to match the nerfs. Priority is being placed on card games. At this point, the only way to truly communicate to the developers is to stop playing.

When they have their Star Wars Galaxies NGE moment, perhaps they will re-evaluate their decisions. By that time, well, we will be playing something else that provides a sense of the compelling combat and class/gear variance that ESO once provided.

OutLaw_Nynx

It is so hard to give feedback on the forums without it being moderated harshly. It sucks because I’d love to discuss changes, but I don’t want to get banned or in trouble with the mods.

jtm1018

I did not say the game is dead or that I hate the game now, not even cancelling eso+.
What I hate is the cycle of releasing a great item with a new chapter or dlc, and then nerfing it because said chapter or dlc already sold for the amount that they wanted.
They call it fixing a broken op item but I chose to believe otherwise. Or I'm the only one who dont believe them devs.

Riptide

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

It is so hard to give feedback on the forums without it being moderated harshly. It sucks because I’d love to discuss changes, but I don’t want to get banned or in trouble with the mods.

I’ll just say this, there have been stretches that if I had referred to fellow posters as being tiresome and disappointing, well, I’ll leave it at that

Hawkeye

ZOS has never been very open with the things they do. How many times do you see them here actually posting about what they are doing? Slim to none. If they cared so much about this community they would be here talking with us, explaining why they are doing what they do.
I am sick to death of working on a build or grinding out gear just to have it become obsolete in a few months. The game feels fun right now. So what do they do? The beat it to death with the ugly stick. They seem to forget we pay the bills. Honestly? I think they could care less. IF they did care they would communicate with us.
It's funny how they say oh be patient we are going to do better communicating, only to never hear from the again until the next big blow up where they rinse and repeat the same regurgitated we will communicate lines again. Stop trying to fix what isn't broke!

Adaarye

rootkitronin wrote: »

"Don't tone police" is a perfectly legitimate response to people who are trying to manage other people's response to oppression or social injustice.

Nothing about this patch is oppression in any way, shape, or form.

It's frankly offensive (not to mention silly) to bring "tone policing" into the conversation in this way. OP is right; civility and constructive criticism are the right approach for, of all things, a game. If you can't even be civil about a game, our society is completely lost, beyond all hope.

I agree. Completely. With all due respect, using terms like "Don't tone police" minimizes legitimate real world use of that objecting to tone policing of REAL issues in REAL society.

While I disagree with many changes/nerfs over the years, none of them have effectively removed my joy and fun when playing the game.

Things that do effect my joy are people bringing toxicity into a game that is meant to be fun.

I can't light attack weave so I am limited to playing support. I accepted that a long time ago and I found that I love playing support! I've done every trial and every dungeon on vet and more than a few HM's.

One thing I find particularly offensive and unpleasant about many reactions to proposed changes are the passive aggressive and sometimes outright aggressive attacks on players than many in the ESO gaming community call "Unskilled Players", claiming that those players will not benefit from the changes.

Is that helpful? I don't think so and it's not nice. That kind of behavior only furthers the US and THEM thing.

Shouldn't we all face the challenges and play the game most of us love without throwing shade on other players and ZoS Devs?

pklemming

Honestly feeling like toning stuff down is enabling them to continue what has been happening for years now. We have seen from previous times that it just never gets listened to.

Riptide

This is real society and real people here behind these keyboards. The medium and the avatars don’t change that. We aren’t in an RP forum, but rather discussing a product, our expectations, and all of it.

Just saying, it is pretty easy to diminish people’s views because we are discussing a videogame. But self professing to be an arbiter of where and when phrases from the “real world” get used, well. This isn’t Tamriel and it feels real from where I a sitting.

Particularly when defenders of the devs call critics apes in threads allowed to go on while critics are on constant eggshells.

Hawkeye

Adaarye wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

"Don't tone police" is a perfectly legitimate response to people who are trying to manage other people's response to oppression or social injustice.

Nothing about this patch is oppression in any way, shape, or form.

It's frankly offensive (not to mention silly) to bring "tone policing" into the conversation in this way. OP is right; civility and constructive criticism are the right approach for, of all things, a game. If you can't even be civil about a game, our society is completely lost, beyond all hope.

I agree. Completely. With all due respect, using terms like "Don't tone police" minimizes legitimate real world use of that objecting to tone policing of REAL issues in REAL society.

While I disagree with many changes/nerfs over the years, none of them have effectively removed my joy and fun when playing the game.

Things that do effect my joy are people bringing toxicity into a game that is meant to be fun.

I can't light attack weave so I am limited to playing support. I accepted that a long time ago and I found that I love playing support! I've done every trial and every dungeon on vet and more than a few HM's.

One thing I find particularly offensive and unpleasant about many reactions to proposed changes are the passive aggressive and sometimes outright aggressive attacks on players than many in the ESO gaming community call "Unskilled Players", claiming that those players will not benefit from the changes.

Is that helpful? I don't think so and it's not nice. That kind of behavior only furthers the US and THEM thing.

Shouldn't we all face the challenges and play the game most of us love without throwing shade on other players and ZoS Devs?

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

bmnoble

Will I quit the game no.

But after 8 years and they still haven't made their mind up about what direction they want to take combat in and your asking us to "trust" them by this point they should be making minor changes and tweaks.

It's not just a result of update 35's patch notes that people are annoyed this has been happening again and again wide scale changes to combat only to completely change direction one or two patches later, if they can't even make their mind up on what the goal is suppose to be it doesn't inspire any trust, it makes it look like they are just making it up as they go with no plan.


If they want to lower end game DPS in Vet Trials and Dungeons, why not add an equivalent to battle spirit for that content, they could set whatever percentage they wanted to lower the damage in those instances, they could even use it to customize the difficulty of those game modes each trial having a different battle spirit set ups etc..

Adaarye

Hawkeye wrote: »

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

I'm so sorry you're not having fun but I am not bowing down. I have a very different perspective of what a game is apparently.

I enjoy this game very much and never run out of things to do It's fun and worth my while. I realize enjoyment of a game is subjective. If I don't enjoy a game, I stop paying for it and move on to something I do enjoy.

I do hope the devs will find a happy place for everyone. The devs are not the players' enemy.

We can't always control a situation but we can control how we react to it.

RevJJ

Adaarye wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

I'm so sorry you're not having fun but I am not bowing down. I have a very different perspective of what a game is apparently.

I enjoy this game very much and never run out of things to do It's fun and worth my while. I realize enjoyment of a game is subjective. If I don't enjoy a game, I stop paying for it and move on to something I do enjoy.

I do hope the devs will find a happy place for everyone. The devs are not the players' enemy.

We can't always control a situation but we can control how we react to it.

Please keep in mind that there are many players who have played this game that they love for years, for thousands of hours and in some cases have spent thousands of units of whatever their local currency is.

Of course people are going to be upset and react emotionally when changes are announced that will have a massive negative impact on their enjoyment of that game.

You may never run out of things to do, but if changes are made that may effectively lock certain players out of content that they were able to do previously but will not be able to do anymore, those players will run out of things to do and will quit the game.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Adaarye wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

I'm so sorry you're not having fun but I am not bowing down. I have a very different perspective of what a game is apparently.

I enjoy this game very much and never run out of things to do It's fun and worth my while. I realize enjoyment of a game is subjective. If I don't enjoy a game, I stop paying for it and move on to something I do enjoy.

I do hope the devs will find a happy place for everyone. The devs are not the players' enemy.

We can't always control a situation but we can control how we react to it.

That's easy to say until things you care about personally have been hit one too many times.

Adaarye

RevJJ wrote: »

Please keep in mind that there are many players who have played this game that they love for years, for thousands of hours and in some cases have spent thousands of units of whatever their local currency is.

Of course people are going to be upset and react emotionally when changes are announced that will have a massive negative impact on their enjoyment of that game.

You may never run out of things to do, but if changes are made that may effectively lock certain players out of content that they were able to do previously but will not be able to do anymore, those players will run out of things to do and will quit the game.

I've been here since beta. I own all but three houses in the game, both crown purchased homes and gold purchased homes. I've so many mounts and I've farmed every meta healer set of gear. By default, I also have most meta tank sets as well. So I have a lot invested, both time and money. I'm looking forward to the new content. I'll be spending more time and money

I'm not minimizing anyone's feelings. I was hoping to shine a positive light on things AND I am agreeing with the OP. It's all about how people react and keeping it constructive lessens toxicity and most likely gets better results in the end. Of course everyone has the right to feel the way they do.

If people want to be angry about it by all means. I'm sure that will solve everything. I hope that works out for everyone.

Personally, I'm not going to beat up the devs though. I think they deserve a bit better. If others want to do that, then again, by all means.

Do try to have fun. It's a game. Take care!

Riptide

Every sport on earth is a “game”. I mean can bold it, italics it, put hearts in the the post etc and it doesn’t, in truth, invalidate anyone’s views

And lets say you join a country club….and the general manager has the greens moved into the middle of the fairways right after you joined. So you wander off, then a year later they add on a clubhouse extension, so you pay a supplemental to your dues and come back.

Only 6 weeks later they announce that they are getting rid of the clubhouse, replacing it with a shed, and moving the greens all over the place in an almost random way to increase the distance on the holes by 20%.

You come to their online forums and rightly complain, and some really nice folks say….its just a game, and intimate you are being unreasonable to be vocal about your criticisms. And that it is absolutely across the line to suggest a leadership change or two.

You might start wondering at folks, especially if you also happened to be one of the very first members and been paying dues since the place was built.

I think if you were civil and patient in your responses and comments in that environment you might even be being outright magnanimous, but that is just my opinion

Hawkeye

Adaarye wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

I'm so sorry you're not having fun but I am not bowing down. I have a very different perspective of what a game is apparently.

I enjoy this game very much and never run out of things to do It's fun and worth my while. I realize enjoyment of a game is subjective. If I don't enjoy a game, I stop paying for it and move on to something I do enjoy.

I do hope the devs will find a happy place for everyone. The devs are not the players' enemy.

We can't always control a situation but we can control how we react to it.

Well, I have been here since Alpha. I have spent thousands of dollars. (Which I regret) And who knows how many hours I have played. But being passive aggressive towards me does not help either. We all enjoy the game for various reasons. I am not here to belittle anyone else's reasons for playing. Nor am I trying to grand stand all I have done or given etc. I mentioned them to show you're not the only person who has given well beyond what they should have. If you want to blow hearts at the Devs? Go for it. I for one wont. Also you have no right to tell people how they should react to issues they are having. Nor do I have the right to tell you how to.
We all have opinions. And no ones is less valuable than the next persons. Right now ZOS is more or less taking a dump on OUR game! And people are upset, and rightly so. No one wants these changes, well most people don't. That is why there is an uproar going on. And guess what? ZOS is as usual M.I.A. So that frustrates people even more. I mean we have Community managers who never darken the doorstep of these forums to explain stuff. No, they do it on Twitch where they can be seen and get that 15 minutes of fame.
I could care less about Twitch or any other platform they leave announcements on. It should be done here, you know? The actual forums for the game. I find it unprofessional and down right rude that they think the forums is the last place they should visit. But here we are. Radio silence. So if that is what you want to stand behind? More power to ya. You have a right to do that. I just don't have to agree. You're right that situations can't always be controlled. But ZOS sure could do a lot more than they are. And the reaction they are getting is not just from me it's rom a lot of us.

spartaxoxo

If you can't discuss a video game seriously in that game's video game forum, then you can't be a hobbyist period. And that's utterly absurd. This IS the place to discuss in depth.

spartaxoxo

Adaarye wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

"Don't tone police" is a perfectly legitimate response to people who are trying to manage other people's response to oppression or social injustice.

Nothing about this patch is oppression in any way, shape, or form.

It's frankly offensive (not to mention silly) to bring "tone policing" into the conversation in this way. OP is right; civility and constructive criticism are the right approach for, of all things, a game. If you can't even be civil about a game, our society is completely lost, beyond all hope.

I agree. Completely. With all due respect, using terms like "Don't tone police" minimizes legitimate real world use of that objecting to tone policing of REAL issues in REAL society.

Nah. That ain't it.

Suedyin_Loreseeker

Just posting to support the original poster.
It is not about what we think ZOS will pay attention to: It is about what sort of people we want to be and how to best effect change in the real-life adult world.
+1 for positive, constructive, rational, carefully considered and balanced feedback, in any situation.

Jpk0012

Adaarye wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

This post here is the problem. Don't you see? In this society as it is all people want you to do is to bow down and don't make waves. If you do your toxic or hateful. I'm sorry, but the things the Devs are doing to the game is down right stupid. Not only that, but they can not even be bothered to come into the forums and actually discuss things. They hide, they ignore and act as as if there is no issue. That is not how you gain the confidence of your player base. It is the exact opposite. It's how you lose the confidence. And they have done a fantastic job doing just that.
So no, I wont just bow down. I will post my feelings when they are destroying the game I enjoy.

I'm so sorry you're not having fun but I am not bowing down. I have a very different perspective of what a game is apparently.

I enjoy this game very much and never run out of things to do It's fun and worth my while. I realize enjoyment of a game is subjective. If I don't enjoy a game, I stop paying for it and move on to something I do enjoy.

I do hope the devs will find a happy place for everyone. The devs are not the players' enemy.

We can't always control a situation but we can control how we react to it.

I am 43 years old. My reaction to a game I no longer enjoy is to find a new game. I've moved on from EQ, DAOC, WOW, DDO, ESO at launch, New Worlds, etc. I'm not new to packing my bags to greener fields or just not playing a game that will nerf me when whiners on the forum complain.

And yes, devs that don't play or understand the game, or its audience are not on my side.

MaraxusTheOrc

Suedyin_Loreseeker wrote: »

Just posting to support the original poster.
It is not about what we think ZOS will pay attention to: It is about what sort of people we want to be and how to best effect change in the real-life adult world.
+1 for positive, constructive, rational, carefully considered and balanced feedback, in any situation.

This.

Iselin

Being better is a two way street.

ZOS' style of making pronouncements about changes, never actively discussing or acknowledging valid criticism of said changes is itself disrespectful to us.

It leaves us with the impression that they live in a bunker with neither trust nor respect for player feedback. It's as if they assume... scratch that, know for a fact that we will just "whine" about all changes and that they're alway right and we're always wrong so they might as well ignore all the noise.

They're the ones that need to be better when 95% of ZOS / player interaction is all the overeager junior mods who do nothing but give out "behave!" warnings and move threads out of general to the invisible forums.

neferpitou73

Are we tone policing the words “tone policing” now? Come on guys.

To the OP I’d agree with posts like this if the devs hadn’t pulled this crap every patch the last 3 years. Screaming on the forums is the only thing that seems to get through to them.


I’d like nothing more than to post praise.

Carcamongus

Devs are in charge of working on a product for paying customers, so they're valid targets of criticism. On the other hand, they're also human. Players are entitled to be upset when something that's dear to them is undergoing changes they see as detrimental. These fairly obvious statements are a prelude to my point.

When expressing criticism, there's an optimal range between the extremes of rage and apathy in which the odds of your views being taken into consideration are higher. Far from me to tell angry people they shouldn't be angry. What I'm trying to say is if you add too much anger to your statement, your target will get on the defensive and possibly dismiss your views as unreasonable. This isn't about how one should feel, but rather a better way to voice one's dissatisfaction. Several people already wrote posts that fall in that optimal range and more such examples would only strengthen the critics' side.

Of course, it's perfectly possible for the devs to ignore a point no matter how thoughtfully and reasonably it's written. But then that's on them, as the players did their part.

Holycannoli

Arthtur wrote: »

And what now? The combat changes are worse than ppl were thinking. All those "doomsayers" were wrong. LA nerfs were nothing compared to all other changes. Rich asked for trust. For that trust we got a mess on PTS.
Its hard to trust when almost every time when i check pts patch notes for next dlc i see a nuke in the middle of the room.

Maybe when he asked for trust he meant "trust us, you will think the LA + HA nerf is no big deal after you see what we did"

LordDragonMara

This changes to me feel exactly like if someone decide to put auto-aiming in FPS games, for example CS:GO, you see a person, and it's auto-headshot the person. Where is the joy in that ?
How can anyone that loves gaming be happy with changes that state we want to lower you down to people that don't care about being good at gaming ?
Why should i be punished as a player, because someone else straight up refuse to learn game mechanics or so ?

Don't even want to start with the dots, because that makes me mad. So people are trying to be optimal, to have good APM(optimal actually require quite average APM to be somehow optimal), and to have good hand-eye coordination + good micromanagement, and all of this skills are pretty much gone, because with the 20 seconds window i can play with my legs and still be faster than that, and my skills as a player are just thrown as a garbage.

They even mention the word "mastery" did you even know what this words mean ??? And what is the purpose of that ???

Not to mention how boring everything will become, we don't have 20+ abilities like other MMORPG, in order the combat to feel good, this is going to be terrible looking at the same skill over and over again.

[snip]

[edited for discussion of disciplinary action]

Cadbury

Between all this back and forth pointing fingers at each other, I just can't...

I mentioned this in another thread, but "You get what you deserve."
Now all I need to do is sit back and watch the fire...

starkerealm

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

Look, I’m not going to white knight the changes in 35. I haven’t had a chance to join the PTS, but my initial reaction is one of significant skepticism.

Then, and I say this with genuine respect, you need to experience this for yourself. You need to get on the PTS and experience what has been done.

You're not wrong, there are a lot of very hurt, and very angry, people on these boards, and while some are reacting preemptively to the changes before experiencing them, like yourself, a lot of people are getting in there and messing around.

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

That said, the hyperbolic and adversarial forums posts are not doing us any favors. Trust goes both ways. If the developers see our feedback after any patch is “I’m canceling, ESO is dead, you ruined everything,” why would they look at this current patch differently?

To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure some of those, "canceling ESO+" posts are not hyperbolic.

There probably are a few mixed in, and it may be a bit hard to gauge which is which, but for some players, this really does fundamentally violate their trust in ZOS to the degree that they want to go somewhere else.

While it does happen, the volume of these statements this time is atypical. Now, you can legitimately say that the community has cried wolf on this subject too many times already, but, this isn't people throwing a fit for the sake of it.

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

I get it. There is frustration, the belief that you’re a customer and entitled to this or that, but perhaps if we take time to frame our critiques in a more constructive manner it might help our relationship with the team. The posters who highlighted the hard DPS checks in recent trials as a conflicting design principle are doing exactly that.

The customer is entitled to a product. If that product does not meet their expectations, they are not obligated to continue paying.

This goes back to that, "trust goes both ways," bit you mentioned. If people are saying, 'A'ight, I'm out," they're responding to what ZOS is doing to the product.

More than that, these wild balance changes every six months do erode customer satisfaction in the product. It's not normal for an MMO to force you to relearn the game two to three times a year, and ZOS has lost a significant chunk of their community over the years as a result.

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

ESO brings a lot of us joy.

This should read, "has brought," not, "brings." It can be stated in the past tense, however prior experience is not indicative of future experiences.

If this goes live, it will be a body blow for many individuals' enjoyment of the game. That's not hyperbole. I understand you haven't experienced this first hand, it really is that bad.

In particular, the DPS nerfs hitting the lower end of the damage spectrum so severely that it sends players from early vet dungeon progression back to overland, is downright cruel. I'm glad you like the game, but no company that does that to its paying customers deserves your unflagging loyalty.

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

The developers are people too.

This is true. However, a lot of people are feeling very betrayed by those people right now. While it's not constructive, feeling hurt and betrayed is prone to result in some less than diplomatic takes.

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

There’s enough toxicity in the world. ESO can be a pretty welcoming community, so let’s not lose sight of that.

If there is toxicity here, it has been provoked by ZOS. Members of the team sat down and signed off on balance changes that would make life significantly worse for casual players, and force players out of the content they were playing and enjoying. That's not hyperbole, that is actually happening on the PTS. So, while I agree that the toxicity is uncalled for, it is the result of the combat team trying to bully the top DPS in the game, accidentally missing and crippling a swath of the playerbase and then hiding behind, "but, you have to be nice to me, I didn't do anything wrong."

They did, and the feedback so far reflects that.

Riptide

Right, exactly, in the same spot.

I watched Nefas’ vid a couple of weeks ago, you know the one, and thought it was over the top.

Now I agree almost completely with him.