Can We Be Better, Please?

MaraxusTheOrc

Look, I’m not going to white knight the changes in 35. I haven’t had a chance to join the PTS, but my initial reaction is one of significant skepticism.

That said, the hyperbolic and adversarial forums posts are not doing us any favors. Trust goes both ways. If the developers see our feedback after any patch is “I’m canceling, ESO is dead, you ruined everything,” why would they look at this current patch differently?

I get it. There is frustration, the belief that you’re a customer and entitled to this or that, but perhaps if we take time to frame our critiques in a more constructive manner it might help our relationship with the team. The posters who highlighted the hard DPS checks in recent trials as a conflicting design principle are doing exactly that.

ESO brings a lot of us joy. The developers are people too. There’s enough toxicity in the world. ESO can be a pretty welcoming community, so let’s not lose sight of that.

Riptide

They need to wade in, here. Substantively.

And have been needing to do so for years.

DairyCat

You mean to tell me setting Karen-esque ultimatums isn't constructive feedback they can use?

shadyjane62

Somehow I don't think the "Community" is going to be very welcoming of this abomination.

Ratzkifal

Where were you the last couple of years when they've done the exact same things they are doing right now? When is enough enough?
All ZOS seems to understand is hyperbolic outrage because only then do they actually sit down and go back on bad changes. It worked in Murkmire, it worked with the light attack changes. If it's not outrage and people are just sitting there patiently and being constructive, ZOS will ignore that feedback as usual.

FantasticFreddie

Will I quit the game? No. But I've noticed I have stopped playing it nearly as much as I was, and I haven't bought any crowns or anything in months. I am doing more casual and overland content, less pvp and end game raiding.
For me? Account wide achievements were the beginning of the end. Too many of my friends quit playing, too many of the end game community left. I still have trifectas to get, and hardmodes to clear, but I've given up on the idea of actually doing it, because forming a team is an impossible uphill battle, and look at these patch notes-- they just made it 10x harder, for NO reason.
That was my biggest enjoyment of the game, and it's gone. I'm still playing. I'm still having fun. But once I run out of quests-- and I will-- I will naturally move on to different games.

Holycannoli

DairyCat wrote: »

You mean to tell me setting Karen-esque ultimatums isn't constructive feedback they can use?

How often do they act on feedback vs pushing the PTS through regardless of feedback?

Holycannoli

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Where were you the last couple of years when they've done the exact same things they are doing right now? When is enough enough?
All ZOS seems to understand is hyperbolic outrage because only then do they actually sit down and go back on bad changes. It worked in Murkmire, it worked with the light attack changes. If it's not outrage and people are just sitting there patiently and being constructive, ZOS will ignore that feedback as usual.

I was here for the August DoT buff and September DoT nerf that made them worse than before the buff.

Uninstalled and quit the game for over two years because of that nonsense. Only came back in May and what do you know, they're pulling nerf nonsense all over again. This patch of nerfs is even worse than the 2019 fiasco as it's not just gutting DoTs, it's gutting classes and LA+HA damage.

And I don't understand why. The game is fun as it is right now. Damage is high. Oakensoul is fun. Content is easier to do. Casuals are enjoying content they couldn't enjoy before. But nooo...instead of making slight adjustments here and there to fine tune it they bring out the sledgehammer. It's so frustrating, again.

rootkitronin

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

Look, I’m not going to white knight the changes in 35. I haven’t had a chance to join the PTS, but my initial reaction is one of significant skepticism.

That said, the hyperbolic and adversarial forums posts are not doing us any favors. Trust goes both ways. If the developers see our feedback after any patch is “I’m canceling, ESO is dead, you ruined everything,” why would they look at this current patch differently?

I get it. There is frustration, the belief that you’re a customer and entitled to this or that, but perhaps if we take time to frame our critiques in a more constructive manner it might help our relationship with the team. The posters who highlighted the hard DPS checks in recent trials as a conflicting design principle are doing exactly that.

ESO brings a lot of us joy. The developers are people too. There’s enough toxicity in the world. ESO can be a pretty welcoming community, so let’s not lose sight of that.

People are justifiably frustrated and upset, please don't tone police them.

JustAGoodPlayer

ESO becomes worse each update.

Graphics is good, some changes is good - balance is bad.

All combat changes are worse each update.

"Eso is dead" - you can say it but it will not be true.

But each update it becomes even less interesting to play. When it becomes totally unplayable - you will not see "teso is dead" - no one will play it.

"TESO is dead = bad update, bad changes"

If some more updates like this, it will not be interesting to play, so you will not just see such topics.

No one there will play to wright it )

Tatdad

This happens with EVERY SINGLE mmorpg. And people like me make “karen esq “ Ultimatems and guess what ? We quit. Then the mmorpg dies.

And everything is left scratching their heads why.

You can talk trash about the methods of upset customers all you want. It’s literally pointless to me clicking the unsubscribe button and never coming back ever again. Twist it around all you want community and developers. ALL you want it’s meaningless to when your numbers drop.

We don’t care. We are upset customers. Either don’t do the path. Or do it. It’s your choice.

amapola76

rootkitronin wrote: »

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

Look, I’m not going to white knight the changes in 35. I haven’t had a chance to join the PTS, but my initial reaction is one of significant skepticism.

That said, the hyperbolic and adversarial forums posts are not doing us any favors. Trust goes both ways. If the developers see our feedback after any patch is “I’m canceling, ESO is dead, you ruined everything,” why would they look at this current patch differently?

I get it. There is frustration, the belief that you’re a customer and entitled to this or that, but perhaps if we take time to frame our critiques in a more constructive manner it might help our relationship with the team. The posters who highlighted the hard DPS checks in recent trials as a conflicting design principle are doing exactly that.

ESO brings a lot of us joy. The developers are people too. There’s enough toxicity in the world. ESO can be a pretty welcoming community, so let’s not lose sight of that.

People are justifiably frustrated and upset, please don't tone police them.

"Don't tone police" is a perfectly legitimate response to people who are trying to manage other people's response to oppression or social injustice.

Nothing about this patch is oppression in any way, shape, or form.

It's frankly offensive (not to mention silly) to bring "tone policing" into the conversation in this way. OP is right; civility and constructive criticism are the right approach for, of all things, a game. If you can't even be civil about a game, our society is completely lost, beyond all hope.

Malthorne

Leadership sets the tone. If you want the community to be better then it starts at the top.

ZOS should be grateful players care enough to be this passionate about the changes.

acastanza_ESO

Outrage is the only thing these people seem to understand.

blktauna

And bad press

DagenHawk

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Will I quit the game? No.

Right there

That is the outcome of all this screeching.

pklemming wrote: »

Wss this what you meant?

Going out with a bang I see...

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Outrage is the only thing these people seem to understand.

No the entire world is pretty desensitized to it now...

Kisakee

People. People never change.

LukosCreyden

People become loud on the forums because they care about the game.
They also become loud on the forums because there have been many, many instances in the past where good, constructive criticism has been given and then ignored. So, people feel like they've got to make some noise to make themselves heard.

DagenHawk

LukosCreyden wrote: »

People become loud on the forums because they care about the game.

That's sorta like saying I berate people because I want them to be better.

(Edited for sensitivity)

drsalvation

I'm ok with the changes, I still think ZoS is handling balancing issues in the wrong approach tho. Instead of bringing down the ceiling, they should make it easier and more accessible for players to raise the floor.
I learned a long time ago to stop caring about builds, I want a challenge and the only way to do so is by not making specialized min/max builds with special gear. Just equip whatever equipment that doesn't belong in a set and then the story will become (just slightly more) difficult.

I've always been wanting hard caps on everything and making builds more of a flavor of particle effects and not a necessity, and this is a step in that direction.

But again, considering how deep down ESO has been going with all balance changes and allowing bugs like weaving (which is now a feature apparently, like cancelling in DMC for better combos which was a bug but it's now legitimized), at this point they shouldn't be bringing down the numbers in our stats, but rather making it easier for casuals to get their hands on better gear and make builds easier.

LukosCreyden

@DagenHawk loudly criticising a videogame is very different from domestic abuse. Please try and disconnect the two, as it sounds very unhealthy.

WreckfulAbandon

Calling for people to lose their jobs and being personally insulting is not valid feedback to patch notes. Comments specifically targeting the proposed changes are fair game. Its not too hard to tell the difference.

LalMirchi

Kisakee wrote: »

People. People never change.

Yes, I'm old, I've used USENET and other primitive and modern forums and unfortunately the behaviour never changes. Communications do have their advantages and disadvantages but "human" nature is very often rather awful.

I had lucrative gigs as moderator in ancient forums when they sprang to the fore in the New World of Internet, but the the toxic users just wore me down, so I quit.

AcadianPaladin

OP makes a fine point but it is hard to be open-minded and take a 'wait and see' attitude with updates when it comes to combat changes. The reason is simple. Experience has taught many players to dread the combat changes that come with updates.

While updates have provided many fine quality of life improvements, new and fun activities, companions and many more nice things that improve the game, the cost has inevitably been combat changes that render the game less fun. So players complain. ZoS does not respond so players tend to complain louder and even get hyperbolic. The PTS cycle has shown repeatedly that PTS finishes the same way it opens with no or insignificant heed to PTS feedback.

Riptide

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Calling for people to lose their jobs and being personally insulting is not valid feedback to patch notes. Comments specifically targeting the proposed changes are fair game. Its not too hard to tell the difference.

Maybe in this bubble of gaming.

In pretty well any industry a history of decisions a large part of the customer base disagrees with followed by multiple instances of public gaffes and it would be commonplace.

And honestly, it is in gaming as well. It is perfectly reasonable for folks to prefer a change in overall direction. Over one gaffe? Of course not. Not even over multiple.

But add them to years of decisions folks disagree with, absolutely.

Honestly some of the closest to the wind posts as far as vitriol in these threads today comes from the defenders. Who I partially agree with by the way. But the comments that have strained civility are most certainly not all coming from the critics, or even the majority.

Holycannoli

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Calling for people to lose their jobs and being personally insulting is not valid feedback to patch notes. Comments specifically targeting the proposed changes are fair game. Its not too hard to tell the difference.

Here's some easy, direct feedback: Remove the class and DoT changes and leave everything else.

There, done.

HybridFreak

I'll do/be better when ZOS starts doing the same.

I love the game and would love to start playing again. I wouldn't be here on the forums right now when I haven't played since October if I didn't. But god damn does ZOS make it hard. It's to the point that I can't even ask on the forums if the issue that completely broke my character almost a year ago was ever fixed without them deleting the post.

Amphithoe

I kinda miss the days before crown crates and 100USD houses.

Arthtur

Yeah overreacting is bad. All that "weaving is dead" etc. wasnt nice after just the preview. But...
Remember how ZOS was deleting PvP comments from live on Twitch?
Remember how ZOS ignored all feedback about AWA?
It wasnt nice either.
Do u see ppl attacking endgame player? Saying that is all their fault and they are toxic?
Its not nice either.
And what now? The combat changes are worse than ppl were thinking. All those "doomsayers" were wrong. LA nerfs were nothing compared to all other changes. Rich asked for trust. For that trust we got a mess on PTS.
Its hard to trust when almost every time when i check pts patch notes for next dlc i see a nuke in the middle of the room.

So for me everyone should step back. But ZOS needs to do it first. Ppl wont stop overreacting when ZOS every single time is going overboard with changes. And Tweets from Rich dont help with this.


Ppl on forum are going crazy now because changes are rly bad. And its not only about DPS. Yes there are big damage nerfs to low and mid tier players, like even overland players will notice a diffrence. There are problems with harder content for Tanks and Healers because of skill changes and how often HoTs tick. There are problems for PvP with new broken set.

Like the only person that didnt get nerfed is... a person who uses ONLY spammable. Literally.

Anyway have fun. If this goes live all those reactions on the forums will be nothing compared to what will happen after.

Didgerion

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

Look, I’m not going to white knight the changes in 35. I haven’t had a chance to join the PTS, but my initial reaction is one of significant skepticism.

That said, the hyperbolic and adversarial forums posts are not doing us any favors. Trust goes both ways. If the developers see our feedback after any patch is “I’m canceling, ESO is dead, you ruined everything,” why would they look at this current patch differently?

I get it. There is frustration, the belief that you’re a customer and entitled to this or that, but perhaps if we take time to frame our critiques in a more constructive manner it might help our relationship with the team. The posters who highlighted the hard DPS checks in recent trials as a conflicting design principle are doing exactly that.

ESO brings a lot of us joy. The developers are people too. There’s enough toxicity in the world. ESO can be a pretty welcoming community, so let’s not lose sight of that.

Maybe it is happening because they are changing stuff without getting our opinion first?

I find their new standard boring and not quite a standard after all, cause you can find skills that doesn't fit in the new standard. And I fail to see the point of all these changes then.

And here is how boring their new 20s standard is. For a perfect parsing all you need to do is this:
(assume skill 1 is the spammable, skill 2-10 dots hots buffs debufs)
Skill1
SKill2
Skill1
Skill3
Skill1
Skill4
Skill1
Skill5
Skill1 (bar swap)
Skill6 (bar swap)
Skill1 (bar swap)
Skill7 (bar swap)
Skill1 (bar swap)
Skill8 (bar swap)
Skill1 (bar swap)
Skill9 (bar swap)
Skill1 (bar swap)
Skill10 (bar swap)
Repeat (18 seconds loop)

Just arrange your skills in that order and you will have a perfect parsing. You wont even need to look at your bars, the Global Cooldown will take care that your rotation is a near perfect 20 second loop.

What? too much bar swapping you say?
No problem! Replace skill 6 with the same spammable as in skill 1:
And here you go:
Skill1
SKill2
Skill1
Skill3
Skill1
Skill4
Skill1
Skill5 (bar swap)
Skill6
Skill7
Skill6
Skill8
Skill6
Skill9
Skill6
Skill10 (bar swap)
Repeat (16 seconds loop )

Problem solved! (but you might not make it into the elite end-game content groups if you do it)

Imo that playstyle will get old pretty soon, and ZOS will want to diversify it in a year or so, and they will come up with a new standard, something like this:
Buffs/Debuffs 20s
Ground Effects 10s
Hots/Dots 10s
Burst Hot/Dots 5s

And the balancing work will start from scratch again.


PS: don't use any macros in the new DLC it is still against TOS!

PrimusTiberius

I think what maybe the OP is say'n (correct me if I'm wrong) is there's room for criticism but make it constructive criticism. Just as I tell my employees, if you come to me about a problem, make sure you also come with a solution, otherwise move on.

I can see from both side of the track, Dev's want input but why go to the forums if I'm just going to get razed, players want feed back and updates from the Dev's, being constructive and realistic would go a long way. I also believe that many players don't read the updates, and that's on them. There's a ton of info in those updates, I read them and update my guild as I see fit.

I'm just upset over the ring as most of you are, I think it was poor play on ZOS to nerf it so early. I have it on one of my characters, its fun to play although awkward because I do bar swap naturally, but its fun and sometime I think that aspect of the game, slips by ZOS and some players alike.

The Dev's work hard to produce a good, enjoyable environment and for the most part, they have succeeded, the players for the most part, enjoy the game, the passion in this forum shows that. Respect goes a long way, to get respect, you earn respect and that door swings both ways.

I'm home from commuting in DC/Bay Bridge traffic and I'm now going to turn on some ESO and enjoy the rest of my evening, hope you all do the same.

Cheers