The Nocturnal's Ploy set should not be allowed to enter the game

Rhavein

The game already has debuff system so this set is just an abomination and should not see any light. If ZOS wants to implement a dispel mechanic, it should be either a class skill or an ultimate with a cast time (min. 1s maybe 1.5s), single target or as an ultimate with very high cost. Also, should be kept as a unique skill to one class.

Pepegrillos

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

No this isn't how it works. You pop a potion, I debuff. You rally, I debuff, you armor buff, I debuff, you hit rat, I debuff. None of these skills are "caving my skull in". They're buffs that I remove immediately so that I can do more dmg and take less dmg, for free.

I dont think enough people are thinking of this set in a reactionary way like this. No, it's not going to be a waste of time throwing on abilities just to proc the set because it's not like you're going to sit there mindlessly spamming it in a 1v1. You'll hit ele drain when you see the enemy buff up to immediately remove those buffs. You don't have to spam it, you just use it whenever they use a buff.

I really don't get how people aren't recognizing this fact.

If people will use the set as you suggest, then the set will work as pretty much any other purge mechanic in a bunch of other MMORPGs. In other games, however, things are much more dramatic. (The kind of drama that would justify all the outcry in this thread). In those games, you sometimes get purged and you can't get your buffs back because there are large cooldowns involved (in the minutes) or absurd costs that work as a serious limiting factors.

kalunte

or maybe, infinite regen are a bit to much because of pots. All other major buffs are available through skills you already use anyway, so 2sec for removing a major or a minor isnt that awfull.

what'll hurt will be the amount of debuff that can be used through status effects and so on.

buff should be paired so that if you use let's say major breach your target also lose major resolve but not another major buff.
this whay there will be more consistent imo.

cowardice/courage
breach/resolve
vulnerability/protection

and so on. this way burning or poisoned (which can be considered debuffs because of fancy coding) will not eat random buffs.

FrankonPC

Pepegrillos wrote: »

If people will use the set as you suggest, then the set will work as pretty much any other purge mechanic in a bunch of other MMORPGs. In other games, however, things are much more dramatic. (The kind of drama that would justify all the outcry in this thread). In those games, you sometimes get purged and you can't get your buffs back because there are large cooldowns involved (in the minutes) or absurd costs that work as a serious limiting factors.

A bunch of other mmorpgs have slower combat with cooldowns on skills and abilities. ESO does not.

The easiest way to see if a set like this is overtuned or not is to see what it gives you. Reducing your opponents armor is more pen than every other 5 pc set in the game but hew and sunder, which you have to hit 5 people to get. hew and sunder lasts for 10 seconds and requires 5 people around your target for this dmg. this skill is a free cast ability every 2 seconds and lasts until your opponent tries to put his armor buff up, which you put back down.

reducing someone's stam or mag sustain by 30% is better than every other reduction set in the game. 30% reduction of anything is huge. you also can't recast these buffs since most people use them via potions. you have to wait for the potion to be back up, but a few casts removes them all for 30+ seconds.

reducing someone's weapon or spell dmg reduces their dmg done to you. since overall flat dmg is a combination of your weapon or spell dmg with max stats and most players stack into weapon or spell dmg more...a 20% reduction in weapon/spell dmg is over a 10% dmg loss...or, in other words...it makes you take 10%+ less dmg. This makes it a solid defensive set as well.

These are just a few removals that you can apply every 2 seconds. The facts are that this set gives more than any other 5 pc in the game and in any pvp environment, you SHOULD be wearing this if it goes live. There's no other 5 pc set in the game that can impact pvp like this with a skill that costs nothing every 2 seconds.

On top of all of this, impacting your opponents buff system is just not a way that's good/fun in a pvp environment. It's counterintuitive to teaching new players how to play the game with buff management etc. There's an entire debuff system that has existed for a reason. As a player you have control over your own buff and debuff management. With this set your opponent has control over your buff management, their buff management AND their debuffs. Of course there's purge abilities which allow you to remove debuffs, but your opponent can still monitor what was removed and reapply.

It's also game breaking. It's been brought up a few times in this thread that casting a debuff every few seconds is a waste of time. It isn't. When a set so unbelievably broken is introduced to live you change how combat functions to run that set. you overapply debuffs because it will give you more than any other set option in the game. That's how this set breaks how combat functions in eso.

I will run this set on every class in the game if it goes live. It is the strongest set in the game for every reason mentioned above.

As an aside,
Isn't it weird how so many sets that end up getting nerfed in the future are often staunchly defended on the forums as bad sets? I've always found if a set is bad, it's just not discussed. For example, we're not weighing the pros and cons of adept rider because it's just not a good set.

Sets that are discussed this much have been historically proven to be overtuned, oakensoul being the most recent example. I wonder how this one will turn out.

divnyi

Faulgor wrote: »

I've been wondering since beta why there is no Dispel effect in the game. Seems like a no-brainer.
But then, we still had other counter-playe back then, like reflects.

Problem is, this shouldn't be on a set. Dispeling someone or something should be a concsious choice, and require some resources. I would even consider putting a cast time on it, or keep it as an ultimate. Procing on debuffing is also an unnecessary double-whammy.

Single-player games had a lot of stuff online doesn't have and shouldn't have. Mark-recalls, levitation, 100% chameleon, 100% reflects etc etc.

Mr_Stach

FrankonPC wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

If people will use the set as you suggest, then the set will work as pretty much any other purge mechanic in a bunch of other MMORPGs. In other games, however, things are much more dramatic. (The kind of drama that would justify all the outcry in this thread). In those games, you sometimes get purged and you can't get your buffs back because there are large cooldowns involved (in the minutes) or absurd costs that work as a serious limiting factors.

A bunch of other mmorpgs have slower combat with cooldowns on skills and abilities. ESO does not.

The easiest way to see if a set like this is overtuned or not is to see what it gives you. Reducing your opponents armor is more pen than every other 5 pc set in the game but hew and sunder, which you have to hit 5 people to get. hew and sunder lasts for 10 seconds and requires 5 people around your target for this dmg. this skill is a free cast ability every 2 seconds and lasts until your opponent tries to put his armor buff up, which you put back down.

reducing someone's stam or mag sustain by 30% is better than every other reduction set in the game. 30% reduction of anything is huge. you also can't recast these buffs since most people use them via potions. you have to wait for the potion to be back up, but a few casts removes them all for 30+ seconds.

reducing someone's weapon or spell dmg reduces their dmg done to you. since overall flat dmg is a combination of your weapon or spell dmg with max stats and most players stack into weapon or spell dmg more...a 20% reduction in weapon/spell dmg is over a 10% dmg loss...or, in other words...it makes you take 10%+ less dmg. This makes it a solid defensive set as well.

These are just a few removals that you can apply every 2 seconds. The facts are that this set gives more than any other 5 pc in the game and in any pvp environment, you SHOULD be wearing this if it goes live. There's no other 5 pc set in the game that can impact pvp like this with a skill that costs nothing every 2 seconds.

On top of all of this, impacting your opponents buff system is just not a way that's good/fun in a pvp environment. It's counterintuitive to teaching new players how to play the game with buff management etc. There's an entire debuff system that has existed for a reason. As a player you have control over your own buff and debuff management. With this set your opponent has control over your buff management, their buff management AND their debuffs. Of course there's purge abilities which allow you to remove debuffs, but your opponent can still monitor what was removed and reapply.

It's also game breaking. It's been brought up a few times in this thread that casting a debuff every few seconds is a waste of time. It isn't. When a set so unbelievably broken is introduced to live you change how combat functions to run that set. you overapply debuffs because it will give you more than any other set option in the game. That's how this set breaks how combat functions in eso.

I will run this set on every class in the game if it goes live. It is the strongest set in the game for every reason mentioned above.

As an aside,
Isn't it weird how so many sets that end up getting nerfed in the future are often staunchly defended on the forums as bad sets? I've always found if a set is bad, it's just not discussed. For example, we're not weighing the pros and cons of adept rider because it's just not a good set.

Sets that are discussed this much have been historically proven to be overtuned, oakensoul being the most recent example. I wonder how this one will turn out.

Just being able to control other people's Buffs is hugely powerful. I don't think people quite realize how impactful that is, you are Gaining a Negative Effect & Losing a Positive Effect at the Same Time while everything else is going on. Control is king.

People freaked out because Oakensoul was strong right? because the Buffs were powerful. This one is the same thing but it's centered on your enemies instead of just you.

EF321

This thing should get Plaguebreak treatment and have per target cooldown of 20 seconds, so you can apply this to different people every 2 seconds, but no one can have another one of their buffs taken away for 20 seconds, including by other same set users.


That should be annoying, but not gamebreaking IMO.

renne

EF321 wrote: »

This thing should get Plaguebreak treatment and have per target cooldown of 20 seconds, so you can apply this to different people every 2 seconds, but no one can have another one of their buffs taken away for 20 seconds, including by other same set users.


That should be annoying, but not gamebreaking IMO.

Agreed. It should also not be allowed to remove buffs that cost anything other than someone's stam/mag(/health?) to get, like pots or food.

Mr_Stach

So I went and made a list of all the sets that Nocturnal just makes useless by existing. You can be the judge of whether you want this in PvP-Land or not. I think it's a terrible idea.

Light
False God's Devotion
Gossamer
Grave Inevitability
Hanu's Compassion
Healing Mage
Hollowfang Thirst
Indomitable Fury
Infallible Mage
Inventor's Guard
Spell Power Cure
Skooma Smuggler
Stone's Accord
Twilight Remedy
Vestment of Olorime
Wisdom of Vanus

Medium
Coward's Gear
Crusader
Grisly Gourmet
Gryphon's Ferocity
Heem-Jas' Retribution
Kinras's Wrath
Quick Serpent
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Tzogvin's Warband
Vicious Serpent

Heavy
Bani's Torment
Claw of Yolnahkriin
Drake's Rush
Dreugh King Slayer
Grace of Gloom
Hagraven's Garden
Immortal Warrior
Jailer's Tenacity
Mighty Glacier
Pangrit Denmother
Saxhleel Champion
Steadfast Hero

Monster
Magma Incarnate
Pirate Skeleton
Scourge Harvester

Crafted
Daring Corsair
Naga Shaman
Spectre's Eye
Unchained Aggressor

WreckfulAbandon

kalunte wrote: »

or maybe, infinite regen are a bit to much because of pots. All other major buffs are available through skills you already use anyway, so 2sec for removing a major or a minor isnt that awfull.

ebix_

this set can single handedly destroy pvp for one full patch if it goes live .
and they may even increase the cooldown but this set should not exist in the first place .

Sandman929

I think we could all use a reminder about the official forum rules.

Mr_Stach

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So I went and made a list of all the sets that Nocturnal just makes useless by existing. You can be the judge of whether you want this in PvP-Land or not. I think it's a terrible idea.

Light
False God's Devotion
Gossamer
Grave Inevitability
Hanu's Compassion
Healing Mage
Hollowfang Thirst
Indomitable Fury
Infallible Mage
Inventor's Guard
Spell Power Cure
Skooma Smuggler
Stone's Accord
Twilight Remedy
Vestment of Olorime
Wisdom of Vanus

Medium
Coward's Gear
Crusader
Grisly Gourmet
Gryphon's Ferocity
Heem-Jas' Retribution
Kinras's Wrath
Quick Serpent
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Tzogvin's Warband
Vicious Serpent

Heavy
Bani's Torment
Claw of Yolnahkriin
Drake's Rush
Dreugh King Slayer
Grace of Gloom
Hagraven's Garden
Immortal Warrior
Jailer's Tenacity
Mighty Glacier
Pangrit Denmother
Saxhleel Champion
Steadfast Hero

Monster
Magma Incarnate
Pirate Skeleton
Scourge Harvester

Crafted
Daring Corsair
Naga Shaman
Spectre's Eye
Unchained Aggressor

Oh I forgot Sea Serpents Coil, so you just Snared yourself for no benefit too because Nocturnal is awesome.

TechMaybeHic

Sandman929 wrote: »

I think we could all use a reminder about the official forum rules.

*sighs at forum name for much less*

Kory

Battlegrounds are going to be brutal with at least 2 or 3 people wearing this

xDeusEJRx

Kory wrote: »

Battlegrounds are going to be brutal with at least 2 or 3 people wearing this

The people who camp spawn and never leave with ranged abilities are gonna ruin fights so hard

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that Flaming, as well as Trolling and Baiting, are violations of the Community Guidelines, and are stated as follows:

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
• Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

Moving forward, let's please keep all posts/comments within the rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Oakiyo

@ZOS_GregoryV

Could it be possible to get an answer from ZOS other than "some peoples are out of the rules of the forum" about this concerning topic ? ...

ShadowProc

I do not understand why a set like this would be introduced to target soloers.

Zos, please think long and come up with a set that targets ball groups. Makes no sense why items and sets continue to be introduced that destroy small scale while large groups continue to be the problem.

Some set that has like a chain lightning effect for groups would be great please. Rework other sets items that were designed to give us a tool against ball groups to make them effective against them, NOT FOR THEM.

divnyi

Everyone keeps comparing this set in terms of penetration, while nobody noticed how easy will this eat major minor expedition in 2v1 scenario, completely ruining any chances to escape.

Sandman929

ShadowProc wrote: »

IZos, please think long and come up with a set that targets ball groups.

Please don't, there will never be a set that effects only ball groups. There are mechanic changes, but never a set.

Mr_Stach

Sandman929 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

IZos, please think long and come up with a set that targets ball groups.

Please don't, there will never be a set that effects only ball groups. There are mechanic changes, but never a set.

This set effects large groups of players, ball groups equip them.

Zos:

Sandman929

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

IZos, please think long and come up with a set that targets ball groups.

Please don't, there will never be a set that effects only ball groups. There are mechanic changes, but never a set.

This set effects large groups of players, ball groups equip them.

Zos:

Right? People always forget ball groups fight large groups...so if a set targets groups, they're more than fine with that.

FrankonPC

Sets targeting specific players or groups just don't work typically because this is sandbox pvp where everyone can run the same gear and good players will be able to run stuff better. New sets like these don't work out the way you think they will. Targeting the broken mechanics in pvp would be better imo.

Sandman929

I'm worried that there's no tweak possible with this bad idea, and therefore it will be released as is. I just can't see ZoS scrapping it; they'd rather release a horrible idea than admit that an idea is horrible.

Caribou77

Constantly reapplying buffs in combat isn’t fun, dynamic play.

Actually dueling/working combos/dodging/blocking on-the-fly is what makes pvp fun.

This set, like Dark Convergence, will reduce the time spent enjoying dynamic combat.

Sanctimonia

Caribou77 wrote: »

Constantly reapplying buffs in combat isn’t fun, dynamic play.

Actually dueling/working combos/dodging/blocking on-the-fly is what makes pvp fun.

This set, like Dark Convergence, will reduce the time spent enjoying dynamic combat.

Much the same as Dark Convergence, this set disrupts the flow of combat on a fundamental level, thus shouldn't be considered to be put into the game regardless of encounter or scenario.

Seeing how DC didn't go away either tho, even after numerous appeals from the pvp community, I'd bet this set is going to stick around just the same, maybe with some tweaks to either the proc condition or to it's cooldown - which of course wouldn't change the nature of the set itself, meaning regardless of changes, such a purge effect has no place in a combat system that relies so heavily on buff management.

The theme with newly introduced sets is that once they've been created and put forth by the team, removing it is no longer a realistic option. Some sensible change to their mechanics is probably the best case scenario from that point on.
Would be nice to be proven wrong on that one tho and hope the set just doen't go live at all.

jaws343

Sandman929 wrote: »

I'm worried that there's no tweak possible with this bad idea, and therefore it will be released as is. I just can't see ZoS scrapping it; they'd rather release a horrible idea than admit that an idea is horrible.

I mentioned earlier, that a better adjustment would be to have the set weaken buffs rather than remove them. With like a cap.

So, for example, applying a Major debuff weakens an opponents major buffs by 2% per debuff applied, for like 10 seconds or something. And 1 % for minor. Max 5 stacks.

So, at best, you could remove 10% of all major buffs power and 5% of minor buff power. For Major protection, if you applied 5 Major debuffs, you'd remove 10% from Major protection, so instead of 10% mitigation it would provide 9%.

But, that reduction would apply across all Major buffs. Even ones applied via sets with permanent uptimes, like Oakensoul.

Oakiyo

jaws343 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I'm worried that there's no tweak possible with this bad idea, and therefore it will be released as is. I just can't see ZoS scrapping it; they'd rather release a horrible idea than admit that an idea is horrible.

I mentioned earlier, that a better adjustment would be to have the set weaken buffs rather than remove them. With like a cap.

So, for example, applying a Major debuff weakens an opponents major buffs by 2% per debuff applied, for like 10 seconds or something. And 1 % for minor. Max 5 stacks.

So, at best, you could remove 10% of all major buffs power and 5% of minor buff power. For Major protection, if you applied 5 Major debuffs, you'd remove 10% from Major protection, so instead of 10% mitigation it would provide 9%.

But, that reduction would apply across all Major buffs. Even ones applied via sets with permanent uptimes, like Oakensoul.

That would still be overtune. It means in one 5 pieces, you have at least 10% damage reduction and 3k pen. And that if the target only have major resolve and major damage buff. On a templar, that's also 4% healing debuff, 2.5% damage taken, 5% additionnal damage reduction, potentially 5% less crit damage, ... I'm not even talking about Wardens. This is a lot just for 1 set. And more importantly, other foes of the target also benefit from these.

The design of this set is just flawed and it should not go live. Or it should be completly reworked.

Klingenlied

All this criticism. No one ever trying to think the other way round - use less buffs / try to go with permanent ones?
The "only" thing this set will do is wreaking havoc on the established meta. People wearing it will not suddenly destroy other players. But even in battlegrounds, a single player wearing this set will greatly benefit his group and could tremendously impact the match in their favour. And honestly? If there is something I don't mind too bad, it is PvP-shakeups. Playing Warden btw. - so being bottom tier for what feels like forever now .. yea, I kinda like the thought of a PvP-game that might not be too bad to Wardens any longer due to way more options for us now.