The Nocturnal's Ploy set should not be allowed to enter the game

Zski

Zski wrote: »

It's not indefensible. It's not even that bad. The only buff this is even going to hit regularly that isn't easily static/regainable is like, Major Sorc/Brutality and the regens. That's it, that's what you're losing in a manner that isn't easily retainable. Sorc/Brutality and regen.

Sorry, forgot to mention -

all of this is assuming you're not just in oakensoul, which is already the single best PvP item in the game. if you think a ton of people are going to be deploying with Ploy in an oakensoul meta, I have questions.

FrankonPC

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

You're attempting to defend this set with terrible arguments like "occasional buff drop" and "pierce armor range".
Bringing up the range of Pierce armor and ignoring the free cast of ele drain is just a strawman, but you already know that.

If you don't see how a 5900 armor reduction is valuable for burst and will turn into big numbers, on top of all of the other removals it gives every 2 seconds you can't be helped. I think you do though, which is why youre attempting to defend the indefensible. As I said before it's one of the best dmg sets in the game for that reason alone. You will get big dmg numbers with this set, your opponents will lose 30% sustain with potions, any set with a buff will be removed, etc. Yeah, sounds like an awful set that I definitely won't run and abuse if it goes live.

You literally get the armor back on a vigor cast. It doesn't give you removals every 2 seconds - it gives you removals every double debuff, which is a skill, which takes a global. Which means if theyre shredding you every 2 seconds, every second skill is literally a nothing sandwich. Either theyre not using it enough to actually hurt your buff stack that bad, or they're using it on CD and not dealing any actual burst in the meantime. Assuming they can even do so on CD through LoS, range, and dodge rolling. Nobody is going to run around hitting Puncture or Ele Drain every 2s, and if they are and theyre alone, it's not a problem. If they are and they're in a group, you should lose anyway.


It's not indefensible. It's not even that bad. The only buff this is even going to hit regularly that isn't easily static/regainable is like, Major Sorc/Brutality and the regens. That's it, that's what you're losing in a manner that isn't easily retainable. Sorc/Brutality and regen.

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff.

You lose 30% of your sustain for 30+ seconds after you pop a potion because you don't get those buffs from other sources. You then spend more time casting buffs that cost resources while I weave a free cast skill or keep caltrops down to do the same thing.

I keep all my buffs, plus I have a set that reduces your armor by 5900, your sustain by 30%, your weapon and spell dmg by 20%...it's the best dmg and defensive set in the game that's a free cast.

You're absolutely right. Bad set that nobody will use. That's why youre defending it, because it's bad.

TechMaybeHic

Zski wrote: »

Zski wrote: »

It's not indefensible. It's not even that bad. The only buff this is even going to hit regularly that isn't easily static/regainable is like, Major Sorc/Brutality and the regens. That's it, that's what you're losing in a manner that isn't easily retainable. Sorc/Brutality and regen.

Sorry, forgot to mention -

all of this is assuming you're not just in oakensoul, which is already the single best PvP item in the game. if you think a ton of people are going to be deploying with Ploy in an oakensoul meta, I have questions.

Did you read the full PTS notes? Doesn't sound like it from this

Zski

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

ur_goose

At one point in time I would have happily dedicated my life to Zenimax Online Studios but now you have left me with no choice. I must move on from you and leave you like my ex wife left me once. (Deborah if you're reading this I hope you lose the custody battle!) I gave my life and time to you Zenimax, my family left me because I spent all time doing overland content and farming nodes on my epic mount that I got from your crown crates (thanks by the way) I'm broke now and close to homelessness but at least I was happy until you released the Nocturnal's set which has now shown me that I am truly left with nothing. I once had you as a friend Zenimax but now I face the world --- alone

Sandman929

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

Do you think Resolve is the only buff? You're taking a very simplistic look at a set that removes for free any buff, including potion buffs. This is basically costing money and materials in addition to freely costing the target stamina or magicka spent for several buffs of a defined duration.

WreckfulAbandon

ur_goose wrote: »

At one point in time I would have happily dedicated my life to Zenimax Online Studios but now you have left me with no choice. I must move on from you and leave you like my ex wife left me once. (Deborah if you're reading this I hope you lose the custody battle!) I gave my life and time to you Zenimax, my family left me because I spent all time doing overland content and farming nodes on my epic mount that I got from your crown crates (thanks by the way) I'm broke now and close to homelessness but at least I was happy until you released the Nocturnal's set which has now shown me that I am truly left with nothing. I once had you as a friend Zenimax but now I face the world --- alone

Youll be welcome in the Nocturnals Refugees Shelter that I will be opening in around one month when this patch finally hits live. We have a basketball court, ping pong tables, and Friday will always be Meatloaf Day. You are not alone brother ✊

FrankonPC

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

No this isn't how it works. You pop a potion, I debuff. You rally, I debuff, you armor buff, I debuff, you hit rat, I debuff. None of these skills are "caving my skull in". They're buffs that I remove immediately so that I can do more dmg and take less dmg, for free.

FrankonPC

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

i remember when 13k pen on stuhn was too much on the pts...

That reminds me, remember when they tried adding a single target silence/negate effect to Incap Strike? Players correctly identified numerous reasons why that was a terrible idea, and the devs wisely reverted it. This set is similarly debilitating in a similarly unfun way, basically singling out a random individual and telling them they're not allowed to fight back. I think much like Negate, a telegraphed stationary AoE dispel effect would be fine, but not something that sticks to one person.

Really good point and example 👏

doesurmindglow

FrankonPC wrote: »

No this isn't how it works. You pop a potion, I debuff. You rally, I debuff, you armor buff, I debuff, you hit rat, I debuff. None of these skills are "caving my skull in". They're buffs that I remove immediately so that I can do more dmg and take less dmg, for free.

@FrankonPC I think part of the disconnect going on with this set is a lot of players that don't keep up their own buffs are unable to see how devastating a set like this would be to a player who can.

Regardless, that's not a playing field that actually needs to be "evened." Learning buff maintenance is good, actually. Learning to fight outnumbered is good, actually. Having to actively think about how to disable a competent player is also good.

We don't need Xv1 sets. The numbers advantage is strong enough.

React

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

Brother, you aren't caving any skulls in period - you literally died to me 5v1while I was streaming several weeks ago, and came back to the mile gate 3 times consecutively to die 1v1 in under one minute each time.

You are exactly the kind of player I am worried about running this set - the player that constantly chases down solos with numbers advantages, and would now have access to a set which completely removes their ability to fight back or survive against you.

WreckfulAbandon

Thanks @React its always nice to have some context 😉

J18696

Sandman929 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

A way to look at what this set is giving is to look at what it's debuffing as a buff for you.

Removing recovery buffs off pots ALONE is the strength of a 5 pc set, and the player will not get his recoveries back off potion cooldown.

Removing major resolve is the equivalent of a 5 pc dmg set, that you can ensure every 2 seconds.

Removing major brutality or sorcery is stronger than major cowardice in most situations.

On top of all of this, you get these benefits and more with a FREE cast skill every 2 seconds. It's counter-intuitive to how the game functions at its core and it just wouldnt really be beneficial to run buffs in pvp. On top of all of this, it's not fun game design to have to try and keep buffs up that are dropping every 2 seconds.

I haven't seen it in action, but on console I'm sure it'll be a struggle just to identify what buff has been removed by squinting at the tiny buff pictures on my bar.

It will remove all of them at a 2 second cooldown all you need is for 1 person to sit in stealth near you and spam ele drain and you will effectively never buff yourself

MetallicMonk

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

How are players like you this deep into your own delusion? I have people send me screenshots of you whining in zonechat after I kill you on your ganker chasing me with multiple people. I cannot imagine anything being absolutely demolished by you except for Cyrodiil delves.

Wolfpaw

Group for group content. Only change I would do "Enemy in range of X".

& once again remove all mythics and proc sets from no-cp content.

Set looks fun, woulda preferred this mechanic in a new skill line though.

Sandman929

Maybe we need a set that deletes alchemical reagents from players inventory every 2 seconds and people will start understanding part of the problem here.

renne

If Dark Convergence is any indication (another set with many many requests to not add it to the game because it was too broken before it officially arrived) we'll have to sit through this set for a whole year before it ends up in a reasonable state.

Sandman929

renne wrote: »

If Dark Convergence is any indication (another set with many many requests to not add it to the game because it was too broken before it officially arrived) we'll have to sit through this set for a whole year before it ends up in a reasonable state.

Probably true, but I would hope that even though ZoS loves every single one of their bad ideas like their children, even they can see the problem with a set that robs players of their valuable alchemical materials for absolutely no cost to the user.
I certainly won't be using potions for buffs if someone can sit on a wall and take away that buff for funsies.

FrankonPC

doesurmindglow wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

No this isn't how it works. You pop a potion, I debuff. You rally, I debuff, you armor buff, I debuff, you hit rat, I debuff. None of these skills are "caving my skull in". They're buffs that I remove immediately so that I can do more dmg and take less dmg, for free.

@FrankonPC I think part of the disconnect going on with this set is a lot of players that don't keep up their own buffs are unable to see how devastating a set like this would be to a player who can.

Regardless, that's not a playing field that actually needs to be "evened." Learning buff maintenance is good, actually. Learning to fight outnumbered is good, actually. Having to actively think about how to disable a competent player is also good.

We don't need Xv1 sets. The numbers advantage is strong enough.

Yeah, i agree. In my opinion that's what the debuff system is for. The debuffs are there to help counteract buffs. Debuffs and a buff purge set seems to heavily skewe that system.

renne

Sandman929 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

If Dark Convergence is any indication (another set with many many requests to not add it to the game because it was too broken before it officially arrived) we'll have to sit through this set for a whole year before it ends up in a reasonable state.

Probably true, but I would hope that even though ZoS loves every single one of their bad ideas like their children, even they can see the problem with a set that robs players of their valuable alchemical materials for absolutely no cost to the user.
I certainly won't be using potions for buffs if someone can sit on a wall and take away that buff for funsies.

Oh I absolutely agree. It's also the irony of a patch that's supposed to help buff management and they introduce a set that's like "teehee!! I've removed one of your buffs, and since you're on console good luck figuring out which one from that tiny row of boxes that constitutes your buff bar!"

Alchimiste1

Zski wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

if you can't kill one person with 6 people that's a you problem. l2p

Players in the community need to stop thinking that sets can all of a sudden help them even the playing field. good players can run these sets as well, to a much better effect than inexperienced players and abuse it more. maybe this patch instead of trying to have crutches make it to live so "inexperienced players can compete", we come to the realization that every single time this has happened it's abused by the best players and the community comes to the forums to get that set nerfed anyways. it happened with oakensoul, with sloads, with viper/tremor/blackrose...it happened this upcoming patch with plaguebreak and dark convergence and it will happen with this set.

I mean I'm not the one dying to a guy using every other GCD to Puncture me instead of using a real skill, assuming they're even in range/los/not cc'd/capable of hitting me with the double debuff at all. Not sure that l2p is aimed the right way there, champ.

Also the defacto meta sets that penetrate Cyro tend to be creator derived, but the ones that really take hold everywhere are proactively powerful. People like big numbers and killing blows, zerg surfers included. If you think "the masses" are going to get in on Nocturnals even have as much as Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak, Oakensoul....we very strongly disagree.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

EDITED* I read more of what you said and there is so much factually incorrect statements.

You wanna actually highlight any of them or just be kind of a ***? Bet i know which one it is.

Next time try quoting the right person because I only said the lower part of that

But anyways I'll correct some of the things you inaccurately stated

1) It doesn't take 5 nocturnal users to counter 1 DT user. It takes less than 1/4th of a person using Noctural to negate someone using Daedric Trickey
2) Nocturnal IS good 1v1. Actually, if you rotate puncture spam and 1 ability the other person might as well be naked after a few seconds. Not to mention its potential to be Highly potent if you set it up right for your burst
3) You are severely undermining the effectiveness of this set and are ignoring what people have been saying. It has much higher potency than sets like DT, Gryphons, olo, gloom etc. You have like 5X the potency those sets have.
4)all you'd have to do to make this set effective is spam elemental susceptibility on everyone once

Of course, there is a lot more wrong with this set than that, but I think a lot of other people have already listed enough for it to be reworked.

CameraBeardThePirate

FrankonPC wrote: »

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

It's really simple:
You cast a skill for a buff, the skill costs resources.

I cast a skill that costs no resources to remove that buff. .

And I am busy casting skills that are caving your skull in while every second of your casts seems to be a debuff you already have on me that does 0 damage. The armor buff you seem so intent on is going to come back every time I vigor, - yknow, the most ubiquitous pvp heal in the game on a 4s timer. Vigor.

You're right, it is really simple. Sorry you're literally sitting there for an hour while someone apparently light attack and Ele drain weaves you to death, I guess.

No this isn't how it works. You pop a potion, I debuff. You rally, I debuff, you armor buff, I debuff, you hit rat, I debuff. None of these skills are "caving my skull in". They're buffs that I remove immediately so that I can do more dmg and take less dmg, for free.

I dont think enough people are thinking of this set in a reactionary way like this. No, it's not going to be a waste of time throwing on abilities just to proc the set because it's not like you're going to sit there mindlessly spamming it in a 1v1. You'll hit ele drain when you see the enemy buff up to immediately remove those buffs. You don't have to spam it, you just use it whenever they use a buff.

I really don't get how people aren't recognizing this fact.

ur_goose

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Youll be welcome in the Nocturnals Refugees Shelter that I will be opening in around one month when this patch finally hits live. We have a basketball court, ping pong tables, and Friday will always be Meatloaf Day. You are not alone brother ✊

Thanks man I really appreciate it. My wife Deborah kept telling me that the game was ruining my life. She threatened to take the kids and the house. It's been hard to say the least She just didn't understand me, most people don't understand how hard it is to be a ESO player. We deserve a medal for dedicating so much blood, sweat, and tears to this game. Brother I may have to take you up on that offer. Maybe we can do some turkish oil wrestling with the BOYS. Drinking beers and putting meatloaf our mouths. HELL YEAH

ur_goose

React wrote: »

Zski wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Brother, you aren't caving any skulls in period - you literally died to me 5v1while I was streaming several weeks ago, and came back to the mile gate 3 times consecutively to die 1v1 in under one minute each time.

You are exactly the kind of player I am worried about running this set - the player that constantly chases down solos with numbers advantages, and would now have access to a set which completely removes their ability to fight back or survive against you.

Honestly you're so cool man! I really wish I could be just like you. I just love seeing you from afar crush those heads in. I really wish I could be like you one day. You seem so happy and full of life, unlike me. Tell us your secret! Also I love your streams, they are VERY POG like the kids say

WreckfulAbandon

ur_goose wrote: »

Thanks man I really appreciate it. My wife Deborah kept telling me that the game was ruining my life. She threatened to take the kids and the house. It's been hard to say the least She just didn't understand me, most people don't understand how hard it is to be a ESO player. We deserve a medal for dedicating so much blood, sweat, and tears to this game. Brother I may have to take you up on that offer. Maybe we can do some turkish oil wrestling with the BOYS. Drinking beers and putting meatloaf our mouths. HELL YEAH

HELL YEA BROTHER

Faulgor

I've been wondering since beta why there is no Dispel effect in the game. Seems like a no-brainer.
But then, we still had other counter-playe back then, like reflects.

Problem is, this shouldn't be on a set. Dispeling someone or something should be a concsious choice, and require some resources. I would even consider putting a cast time on it, or keep it as an ultimate. Procing on debuffing is also an unnecessary double-whammy.

J18696

Faulgor wrote: »

I've been wondering since beta why there is no Dispel effect in the game. Seems like a no-brainer.
But then, we still had other counter-playe back then, like reflects.

Problem is, this shouldn't be on a set. Dispeling someone or something should be a concsious choice, and require some resources. I would even consider putting a cast time on it, or keep it as an ultimate. Procing on debuffing is also an unnecessary double-whammy.

We already have ways to dispel the buffs of a effect in our debuffs for example major fracture is the counter to major resolve these counters have existed in the game since launch

Faulgor

J18696 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I've been wondering since beta why there is no Dispel effect in the game. Seems like a no-brainer.
But then, we still had other counter-playe back then, like reflects.

Problem is, this shouldn't be on a set. Dispeling someone or something should be a concsious choice, and require some resources. I would even consider putting a cast time on it, or keep it as an ultimate. Procing on debuffing is also an unnecessary double-whammy.

We already have ways to dispel the buffs of a effect in our debuffs for example major fracture is the counter to major resolve these counters have existed in the game since launch

Dispeling and debuffing are different.
Otherwise, cleansing (i.e. self-dispeling) minor defile would apply minor mending instead of removing minor defile.

Also, technically, these effects didn't exist at launch, the minor/major buff system came later.

J18696

Faulgor wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I've been wondering since beta why there is no Dispel effect in the game. Seems like a no-brainer.
But then, we still had other counter-playe back then, like reflects.

Problem is, this shouldn't be on a set. Dispeling someone or something should be a concsious choice, and require some resources. I would even consider putting a cast time on it, or keep it as an ultimate. Procing on debuffing is also an unnecessary double-whammy.

We already have ways to dispel the buffs of a effect in our debuffs for example major fracture is the counter to major resolve these counters have existed in the game since launch

Dispeling and debuffing are different.
Otherwise, cleansing (i.e. self-dispeling) minor defile would apply minor mending instead of removing minor defile.

Also, technically, these effects didn't exist at launch, the minor/major buff system came later.

We always had armor debuffs from the get go of the games official launch so yes we did have them and you are effectively negating the buffs effect this set will effect potion buffs making builds that relie on pots for brutality useless cutting regen numbers removing armor ect its effectively giving multiple 5 peice bonus set effects in one set

Derra

jaws343 wrote: »

It's definitely an interesting set. But, I can see where it can be wildly abused, with something like Pulsar and Minor Mangle and any number of Major debuffs, especially running something like Kynmarcher. Kynmarcher + Pulsar would be brutal.

you just run crushing weapon + charged trait.

voilá your spammble now removes both major and minor buffs on cooldown.