PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Lalothen

codestripper wrote: »

Do you think the only thing that changed were sticky DoTs? light attack damage, the duration of buffs, the duration of the storm atro ultimate, the wall of elements, I mean the tick rate of AOE abilities were adjusted back to 1 second but the damage has still been nerfed. Plus, hurricane is also technically a sticky dot, just on yourself, so that wasn't reverted back either. Finding builds with 1-2 sticky DoTs on live in various classes is fairly common.

I didn't say sticky DoTs was the only thing that's changed, I said "nothing has fundamentally changed between the two comparisons." - i.e. DPS output has merely been shifted around a bit in terms of what hits harder than what. Note the top 6 contributors to DPS remain the same, just in a slightly different order with 2 of those top contributors (LAs & Rele) still requiring good LA weaving.

Ergo, what has ZOS actually achieved here?

Mr_Stach

Lalothen wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Do you think the only thing that changed were sticky DoTs? light attack damage, the duration of buffs, the duration of the storm atro ultimate, the wall of elements, I mean the tick rate of AOE abilities were adjusted back to 1 second but the damage has still been nerfed. Plus, hurricane is also technically a sticky dot, just on yourself, so that wasn't reverted back either. Finding builds with 1-2 sticky DoTs on live in various classes is fairly common.

I didn't say sticky DoTs was the only thing that's changed, I said "nothing has fundamentally changed between the two comparisons." - i.e. DPS output has merely been shifted around a bit in terms of what hits harder than what. Note the top 6 contributors to DPS remain the same, just in a slightly different order with 2 of those top contributors (LAs & Rele) still requiring good LA weaving.

Ergo, what has ZOS actually achieved here?

Cinder Storm: Increased the damage per tick by approximately 7%.
Boneyard: Increased the damage per tick by approximately 21%.
Lightning Splash: Increased the damage per tick by approximately 21%.
Spear Shards: Increased the damage per tick by approximately 33%.

WInter's Revenge: Decreased the damage per tick of this morph by approximately 33%.
Twisting Path: Reduced the damage per tick of this morph by approximately 29%.

These Values are still in place and Winter's Revenge & Twisting Path are showing numbers that are even lower than what these nerfs imply.

Non-Sticky DoTs are not just back to where they were, unfortunately

SeaUnicorn

There does not seem any kind of standardization for PVE Healer toolkit at all. And the costs of abilities are all over the place and currently unsustainable due to increase on cost of our primary spammable heal that took 2 patches ago and was not addressed since then.

Observastion #1: Sticky HOTs
Of all "sticky" heals only Echoing Vigor got the duration increase to 16s. While Radiating Regeneration is still at 10s duration, Rapid is still at 5s, but with a hefty 40% healing reduction comparing to live. Sorcs Powe Surge still ticks every 3s. DK Cauterize still ticks every 5s.
In comparison Sticky DOTs are all at 20s+ duration with 24s being prevalent.

Observation #2: Ground HOTs
Ground HOT standardization is not finished either. Templar Ritual is 30s up from 24s on live, but it still ticks every 2s, instead of 1s.

Observation #3: Durations
Any given class healer toolkit will have HOTs varying wildly. In the End Game PVE Healing we do not "pick and choose" we must run 1 class HOT along with 4 additional weapon and guild line HOTs to keep people alive. And that is because Game is designed with heavy healing checks.
So we will have to have Orb, Echoing, Illustrious, Radiating + Class HOT on our bars.
The out of class utility hots are wildly varying: 2x10s, 15s, 16s. In addition class HOTs are wildly varying too: 5s, 6s, 12s, 18s, 30s, 33s.
This is not helping and this is worse than what we have on live.

Observation #4: Costs
Does not seem to be any skill cost pass through from what I see. Costs of maintenance of HOTs per second is very much different depending on the class. And Healing is not sustainable. Especially considering that Healers in End Game trials are expected to run Spaulder and expected to make up for loss of HPS by using spammable heals. And somehow DD spammables cost less than DOTs per cast, but healer Spammables cost more than HOTs per cast? Clearly this cost balance decision was made with PVP in mind, but PVE implication on healer role was not considered here.

Here are the examples of what combat preview claims, vs what we actually got. I am using PTS Illustrious tooltip as HPS comparison point. HPS shows healing per target. Effective HPS shows how much this skill outputs when all targets it heals are considered, i.e. 6 target HOT would have better effective group healing than 1 target HOT.

“Sticky” over Time effects will retain their initial PTS iteration of 20+ second durations, 2 second frequencies, with .105 coefficient potency per second (their scaling modifier divided by time), and a baseline cost of 135 per second (2700+)

Radiating Regeneration
- Cost/s to maintain on 3 people is 270 mag/s, on 6 people 540 mag/s
- Duration 10s
- HPS 80% of Illustrious
- Effective HPS 40% of Illustrious (only 3 targets per cast)
- Loss of HPS compared to live 40%

Rapid Regeneration
- Cost/s to maintain on 1 person is 540 mag/s, on 6 people 3240 mag/s
- Duration 5s
- HPS 165% of Illustrious
- Effective HPS 27.5% of Illustrious (only 1 target per cast)
- Loss of HPS compared to live 40%

Echoing Vigor
- Cost/s (6 people) 186.5 stam/s
- Duration 16s
- HPS 72% of Illustrious
- Loss of HPS compared to live 22%

Cauterize - Tick frequency 5s
- Cost/s (1 person) 144 mag/s Impossible to maintain on 6 people.
- Duration 15s
- HPS Same as Illustrious
- Effective HPS 16% of Illustrious (only 1 target per cast)
- No loss of HPS compared to live 22%

Power Surge - Ticks every 3s. Has 33s duration
- Cost/s (6 people) 115 mag/s
- Duration 33s
- HPS HOT 105% of Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Static over Time effects will return to their original duration of 10-15 second durations, 1 second frequencies, with .14 coefficient potency per second (U35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes down from .1575 on Live, but up from .105 on PTS), and a baseline cost of 270 per second (2700+)

Illustrious Healing
- Cost/s (6 people) 234 mag/s
- Duration 15s
- HPS -
- Loss of HPS compared to live 22%

Energy Orb
- Cost/s (6 people) 378 mag/s
- Duration 10s
- HPS same as Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Budding Seeds
- Cost/s (6 people) 405 mag/s
- Duration 6s
- HPS HOT 90% of Illustrious; w/burst 150% of Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Refreshing Path
- Cost/s (6 people) 292 mag/s
- Duration 12s
- HPS same as Illustrious
- Loss of HPS compared to live 31%

Extended Ritual - Ticks every 2s. Has 30s duration up from 24 in live
- Cost/s (6 people) 154 mag/s
- Duration 30s
- HPS 94% of Illustrious
- Loss of HPS compared to live 4%

Braided Tether - Requires Corpse to activate
- Cost/s (6 people) 247 mag/s to create a corpse
- Duration 12s
- HPS HOT 90% of Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Renewing Undeath - Requires Corpse to activate
- Cost/s (6 people) 702 mag/s + 247 mag/s to create a corpse
- Duration 5s
- HPS HOT 105% of Illustrious; w/burst 203% of Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Cinder Storm
- Cost/s (6 people) 351 mag/s
- Duration 18s
- HPS 146% of Illustrious
- No loss of HPS compared to live

Spammable Healing costs:
Hasty Prayer 5002 mag
Combat Prayer 4361 mag
Breath of Life 4361 mag
Obsidian Shard 4050 mag
Render Flesh 4320 mag
Fungal/Enchanted growth 4590 mag
Soothing Spores 3902 stam
Healthy Offering 3590 mag + 1080 health
Nature Grasp 4050 mag
Twilight Matriarch 3510

SeaUnicorn

Also was Soul Trap completely forgotten in recent pass through? It is still 10s duration and does less damage than a spammable. Not that we care, cuz nobody in their right state of mind even slots it anymore, it is so weak.

BlueRaven

Hi,

I have a stupid question

I don’t understand the point of the change to sticky dots. I mean I get they wanted to simplify rotations by not having to apply them as often. But why not just increase the duration but leave the damage per second the same?

On live let’s say a sticky dot cost “X” had duration “Y” for overall “Z” damage.

But on the pts the dot still has the same cost X. They doubled the duration but kept the overall damage the same because they go off every other second. Isn’t that just a roughly 50% nerf to sticky dots?

Why not just double every aspect of it? Cost, duration, and let the damage hit every second like they used to?

Because all I am seeing here is to just remove stick dots from my rotation and add another aoe dot.

Elsonso

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hi,

I have a stupid question

I don’t understand the point of the change to sticky dots. I mean I get they wanted to simplify rotations by not having to apply them as often. But why not just increase the duration but leave the damage per second the same?

They are trying to bring down damage per second in this patch.

Necrotech_Master

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Also was Soul Trap completely forgotten in recent pass through? It is still 10s duration and does less damage than a spammable. Not that we care, cuz nobody in their right state of mind even slots it anymore, it is so weak.

soul trap is one of those weird skills, its either really good, or nobody uses it lol

i think the splitting trap was supposed to stay at 10 sec, but the single target trap was supposed to go to 20 sec

i honestly have no idea what their goals are for the skill updates in this patch lol

katorga

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Also was Soul Trap completely forgotten in recent pass through? It is still 10s duration and does less damage than a spammable. Not that we care, cuz nobody in their right state of mind even slots it anymore, it is so weak.

i honestly have no idea what their goals are for the skill updates in this patch lol

Whatever design concept ZOS had with 8.1.0 is completely mangled and inconsistent now that they, in a "kneejerk" reaction to the forum uproar, tried to split the difference and keep parts of their original plan while reverting other elements. It is a complete conceptual mess now, and they should just revert all the combat changes and start over next PTS.

Necrotech_Master

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Also was Soul Trap completely forgotten in recent pass through? It is still 10s duration and does less damage than a spammable. Not that we care, cuz nobody in their right state of mind even slots it anymore, it is so weak.

i honestly have no idea what their goals are for the skill updates in this patch lol

Whatever design concept ZOS had with 8.1.0 is completely mangled and inconsistent now that they, in a "kneejerk" reaction to the forum uproar, tried to split the difference and keep parts of their original plan while reverting other elements. It is a complete conceptual mess now, and they should just revert all the combat changes and start over next PTS.

i think the only real goal was the lower light/heavy attack dmg

the huge class rebalance/nerfs, dot/hot nerf/changes were all throwing the item at the wall and seeing what sticks

the un-nerfed some aspects of the dots, did almost nothing for hots or class skills, so there is a huge conflict going on, aside from the fact that everything in here is still almost universally disliked

i dont mind nerfs where nerfs are deserved (like im fine with the light/heavy attack changes), but the huge class changes/nerfs and massive nerf to dots/hots felt unwarranted/unneeded

KingKayanto

Sad patch is sad. You really want all the veteran players to leave....

MudcrabAttack

From my own testing, individual results may vary:
Heavy attack builds went from 78% of a Light attack build down to 73%
No Weapon attack Builds (If there is such a thing) went from 86% of a Light attack build down to 80%

PTS (Wk3) Necromancer Heavy attack build deals 73% of a light attack build (72,900/99,500)
PTS (Wk3) Necromancer No Weapon attack build deals 79% of a light attack build (79,000/99,500)

Heavy Attacks (I'm no heavy attack expert, but just made a build that seemed to put out the best numbers)

Build Info

No Weapon Attacks (Again no expert, just slapping 5 minutes of theorycrafting together here)

Build Info

Light Attacks

Build Info

It's also worth mentioning the lightning staff front bar was pretty good for a necro with an AOE focus

PTS (Wk2) Dragonknight Heavy attack builds deal 73k, roughly 73% of the light attack builds I tested on other classes (I don't have a clue how to do light attack DK anymore after the updates and big timing changes)

Heavy Attacks - double dual wield

Build Info

Heavy Attacks - maelstrom inferno staff

Build Info

PTS (Wk2) Nightblade No Weapon attack build deals 81% of a light attack build (83,180/103,300)

No Weapon Attacks

Build Info

Light Attacks

Build Info

Compare to 1-2 patches ago when I did all this stuff before:

7.3.0 Necromancer No Weapon attack build deals 86% of a light attack build (103,250/119822)

No Weapon Attacks

Build Info

Light Attacks

Build Info

7.2.4 Nightblade Heavy attack build deals 78% of a light attack build (86,149/110,911)

Heavy Attacks

Build Info

Light Attacks

Build Info

This takes into consideration dual wield heavy attacks are much faster than destro staff. I didn't have enough time in the evening to sit through those destro heavy parses

Many people have already stated the gap has only widened, and I agree. And those 73K DPS numbers for a heavy attack build on PTS would be like 63K on a live dummy

Tannus15

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Also was Soul Trap completely forgotten in recent pass through? It is still 10s duration and does less damage than a spammable. Not that we care, cuz nobody in their right state of mind even slots it anymore, it is so weak.

i honestly have no idea what their goals are for the skill updates in this patch lol

Whatever design concept ZOS had with 8.1.0 is completely mangled and inconsistent now that they, in a "kneejerk" reaction to the forum uproar, tried to split the difference and keep parts of their original plan while reverting other elements. It is a complete conceptual mess now, and they should just revert all the combat changes and start over next PTS.

Pretty much. They overlooked how the ground dot timer changes would impact enchantments and healing and have reverted it in hopes of not totally breaking PvE.

They are hoping to keep some of the changes, but the whole thing is fraying at the seams. I have a feeling there have been a bunch of meetings at white boards trying to work out what to do because they honestly don't know the answer.

What they initially thought was the standard "knee-jerk" reactions to players not wanting to lose dps numbers has turned into a full blown riot with entire trials teams logging into PTS to show them that what they are doing is bad. The entire endgame PvE community is falling apart and despairing because they see their progress being dismantled and ZoS have utterly failed to explain why this needs to happen and what the benefits to the game long term will be so it all feels like arbitrary punishment because they can.

DPS will be nerfed because "I said so. While you live under MY roof you will obey MY rules". Umm, ok dad, I guess we'll move out?

As I've stated elsewhere, some of the changes in this update are good, they have correctly identified some pain points with the current meta such as crystal weapon and stampede over performing.
I don't even see anyone who is really opposed to the light attack damage nerf. Most people I know were actually expecting dots or spammable damage to increase to compensate.

The fact is, the light attack damage nerf is just the tip of the iceberg. as many have pointed out, dps "looks" the same because everything else got nerfed as well.

Sorc229

I have played this game as a mediocre DPS for years now, I struggled with LA weaving and complicated rotations as I'm an older player and have issues with my thumbs and the onset of arthritis. I could get away with an hour or so before they started to ache and I would have to leave it for a day or two. Then I tried a lightning heavy attack build and everything changed. It was all on the trigger (PS5 Player) with some passives slotted and an emergency heal I was happily gaming for hours, I felt like I could contribute to a group (albeit with the occasional comment that "I needed to learn to DPS properly"!), and I was enjoying PvP for the first time.

Then the sets that I was wearing; Undaunted infiltrator/Nobel duelist got nerfed to the point of being useless when a flat damage buff was exchanged for spell damage increase. However I managed to find 2 sets in infallible aether and storm master that where nearly as good at damage but had a better uptime and it was pretty much business as normal.

In the patch notes for update 35 it suggested that there was going to be a bit of love for players like me and to their credit they have reinstated the flat damage buff for my previous sets. Although this does not trump my current set up as they are no better than what I have on, it does give more variability and makes this build type more accessibility for newer players as Infallible Aether is a trial set. Alongside this we have the reduction in Heavy attack scaling which is a substantial nerf to the build, not terminal but disappointing, especially when the patch notes suggest that this play style was going to get a buff..

Then I find out that they have stealthily removed a damage tic from the Lightning channel.. Essentially dropping an additional 20-25% damage. If this happens then there is zero viability in this build/play-style, it was embarrassing enough joining a group and spamming lighting heavy attacks as it was but at least I was holding my own and the splash are damage of the lightning attack was helpful in dungeons. If the tic reduction goes through on this patch its over for me and the game that I have enjoyed for years. 2 massive nerfs to the build when you suggest a bit of love in the patch notes is underhanded and leaves a bad taste.

I appreciate that there have been 1 shot heavy attack inferno build videos being uploaded and skewing public perception of the build type, however you have addressed this with the reduction to Empower. You have also addressed the Un-dodgable lightning channel in PvP which is the right call. There is no need to drop a lightning channel tic, all you are doing is unfairly targeting players like me in PvE who do half the damage of a decent DPS as it stands?

There are lots of players with different play styles who have an issue with this patch and I feel their disappointment and empathise with them, however they have the option to move onto the next meta build that gets established, players like me don't - this patch essentially forces me (and players in my position) out of the game..

TechMaybeHic

So after popping in to test over the past few weeks and check some things I think there are things I like and don't like from a PvP perspective.

I actually like that group HOTs have been reduced. It seems to me, if 1 morph can only apply to 1 target for X; then logically if another can hit 6 targets, it's value should be X÷6. In case of echoing, it's more like a 4th rather than a 6th but I would not go hard fast to that as it is getting on the edge of unusable. Might be a little heavy handed now, but if I were to change it, is limit it to 3 targets and make it a third of the heal of the self target version.

I like the increased duration of root and snare immunity. A lot of roots and snares are spammed and last longer than 2 second. 2 second immunity might as well be nothing when globals are accounted for.

I'd be cautious with the light and heavy attack nerf. I realize this is born from trying to close the gap between those who can weave, and those who can't, but the ones that can't likely rely more on the ability to light and heavy attack outside of weaving. On top if that, this lowers damage overall along with DOT changes that will make TTK stupid high in PvP...unless you rely on some broken proc sets.

As far as DOTs go, I feel you could do the duration to make rotations easier, but the DPS should be closer to current resolving Vigor HPS on PTS and look at it from a per second value rather than a total, then spread it out per target as I mentioned with HOTs. As far as power creep goes; adjust the PvE. I know it would be a lot more work but it would be better for the player base if NPC content was balanced to the players rather than players feeling they get the rug pulled out from under them.

The worst part of the update IMO is sets.

Nocturnal ploy is not a question of balance, but rather enjoyment. Nobody wants to have to stare at their buffs even more than now just to try to know which 1 went down. Not to mention that by the time you see it and recast, in best case scenario, 2 seconds will have passed and more buffs can be stripped. And nobody wants their consumable buffs to be removed and have to wait 40seconds or more to try again probably in futility. I'd rather this set just randomly debuff the opposite of a buff for X seconds and certainly not every 2 seconds. Should be a CD per target longer than that.

And Maras Balm. I mean...just look at the HPS potential there. It would make pre-nerf 7th legion blush.

Edit: I could also go into class changes. I main a templar, but this stuff ebbs and flows. I'm not really happy with the nerfs or animations of my class, but I find it a lot less important than the mass gameplay shift. Sorcs do seem hit a bit hard though. I miss my sorc friends as it is as sone magsorcs disappeared, and stamsorc is stupid on live right now; but it's a bit harsh on PTS

EnderSouth2468

I feel like I'm about to waste 30 minutes of my time but considering the time and money I've invested into a game that seems to have no regard seems like it may be a small sacrifice. Also, while I will be providing feedback on the current PTS situation consider this largely customer feedback.

When it comes to ESO there has always been several ways of thinking that I could make about the game, while the following is not an exhaustive list I want to highlight ones that are potentially usurped by update 35:

1. Damage will always go up.
-This assumption comes from the knowledge that in order to sell new expansions and chapters gear/skill lines will need to be introduced to the game that will provide more benefit than previous sets. Otherwise why would players bother to buy the content.

2. There is a META.
-While there can be splitting of hairs in regards to how much better one strategy is than another or how worth it one strategy is versus another the fact remains that there are always strategies/sets/classes that are better than others. The strength of ESO is in maintaining SITUATIONALLY good sets. For example Kinras shines in stationary low mobility fights with consistent targets. Whereas Tzogvins is typically better in more mobile and ranged fights where either the use of trap is unreliable or maintaining kinras stacks is unreliable.

3. Class identities such and ranged vs. melee damage, burst vs. consistent damage, and inherit survivability vs. reliance on the group are what separate classes and make them have unique identities, strengths, and SITUATIONS where they are better or worse than other classes.

4. The game has GCDs and abilities with no inherit cooldowns, so any ability can be spammed repeatedly without the game blocking or preventing that spamming outside of resource management.
-This aspect of the core gameplay allows for an immense skill ceiling and rewarding gameplay and mastery. Endgame becomes a measure of how well you can maintain your light attack weaving and rotation while also responding to mechanics.



With these three aspects in mind I want to highlight the motivations behind the upcoming patch adjustments:

1. The game is not accessible to newer players.
-Agreed, there is either no or hardly any mention of light attack weaving, rotations, buffs/debuffs, or how any stats affect damage scaling throughout the tutorials, loading screens, or any requirement of these to complete overworld content. Combine this with several unintuitive systems: Why do subtle light attacks do more damage overall than abilities? Why does my magicka character do more damage with daggers and a two hander than with staves? Why are weapon and spell damage some of the lowest priority damage stats (after offensive penetration, crit chance, and crit damage respectively)?

2. There is too much damage in the game.
-No strong feelings on this one either way, I see a lot of endgame players saying this but if you join an unorganized team just thrown together casually you more than likely won't have this same philosophy, only by watching YouTube videos from the top 0.1% of players will most players be exposed to the extremely levels of damage and of those viewers only 1% are going to have the knowledge base to understand the who/what/when/where/hows of what goes into that damage. ESO is a game which in my opinion it is really easy to optimize the fun out of. For example stamina necromancer is considered the best class in the game right now and you will often see trial groups with 6 or more. If you don't like the class but still play it because of the strength it provides odds are you are having a less enjoyable experience than if you played less optimally.



Now I want to talk about how my 4 philosophies/ways of thinking about the game contribute to the overall health of the game:

1. Damage always going up reduces the fear of missing out. The two biggest exoduses I've seen from this game were this upcoming patch (about half my friends are quitting and I know of many groups that are quitting and of none that thought the patch was an excellent reason to start a team), and the patch in which thrassian stranglers were nerfed, many players assumed that many scores posted at the time would never be beaten. Removing damage from the game is a dangerous thing to do as no longer can I make the assumption that when life gets tough I can step away from the game and then when life relaxes come back and either start up content at the same power level as I was before my hiatus or be even stronger as a result of power creep. Having played as long as I have I know that hiatuses from the game are frequent and often healthy decisions. Creating patches that nerf damage sets a dangerous precedence as now players may make compromises in their lives to complete content in the patch that it drops out of fear that the next patch will have sweeping changes that reduce their ability to clear the content. Damage always going up also creates accessibility over time, Maw of Lorkhaj is a great example of this, when I first started playing ESO it was during the Theives Guild patch and Maw of Lorkhaj was the most difficult trial in the game and even to clear non-HM groups had to experience Lunar Phase and save ultimates for ads on the twins. There were sub 100 players with the skin at the time. Now you can practically PUG the trial out of zone chat. Damage creep made the content more accessible.

2. There is a META. I understand that this not a universally loved concept, many players have the classes that they love to play and don't want to be forced to deviate from them. In the game's current state, I would say that following the META has never been more optional. Damage is in abundance and the hybridization changes made a lot of options viable that otherwise wouldn't be. I often say to my friends that the only time I ever feel distressed about a potential dps is when I see a bow/bow stamplar (although I'm open to the idea just not sure how bows and jabbing go together). If damage is nerfed though it is a step back. Instead of allowing non-META setups to exist it forces more extreme vetting when damage is at a premium.

3. I still haven't figured out where the upcoming patch stands in terms of affecting class identity. My impression is that class identity will either be reinforced or stay the same. The biggest area of concern is in browsing some of the feedback and data provided it is looking like a lot of class abilities are being overshadowed by weapon abilities. I find this concerning as when weapons abilities are stronger than class abilities you end of with builds that utilize specific weapons and weapon abilities with class abilities sprinkled in rather than classes that use class abilities with weapon abilities sprinkled in. It is a nuanced distinction but in the prior scenario you end up with every class playing pretty much the same whereas in the latter the classes have more distinct identities because they don't need to all use the same weapon abilities. Examples of at risk classes are templar and sorcerer, whose previous spammables, jabs and crystal weapon, are potentially overlooked for weapon abilities in the upcoming patch. Any time that a class is slotting a weapon ability in place of a class ability I have huge concerns that every class ends up playing the same.

4. The game operating off of GCDs and not skill specific cooldowns means that skills need to have either a lot of upfront effect so repeatedly casting them gives value OR the player needs to have a skill threshold to use them effectively. Changing DoT timers to be longer means that the upfront damage and effectiveness is reduced, making them less effective to use in close succession, as a result player skill is MORE emphasized by longer DoTs because while a fully optimized rotation is assumed to be easier because of the longer DoTs a less optimized rotation, specifically one that recasts DoTs sooner, is going to be much worse. Also, I played on console before switching to PC and needed to do a lot of counting to maintain a rotation. While I know that there are ability timers now if the idea is to get players to stop watching ability timers then having to only count (for example) 6 spammables between each set of DoTs is easier than having to count up to 12 spammables between each set of DoTs. The biggest benefit to managing rotations like this was also CONSISTENT DoT timers. I remember a time when I have to play dragonknight and had a mixture of DoT timers between 10, 12, and 15 seconds. I remember calling that rotation the 5, 2, 1, 6 rotation with each number indicating the number of spammables between DoT casts. Trying to keep track of the same rotation in my head but with 10, 4, 2, and 12 would leave so much more room for losing track of which spammable I'm on.



A final thought/anecdote. My entrance to endgame was through a player who already had all the achievements and wanted to throw something together for some friends, I think this is an extremely common experience. Until that point, I had no idea how to play the game. Seeing an exodus of experienced players and the possibility that content will be that much more difficult makes me think that next patch will have accessibility to endgame at an all time low. Not only will progression groups be hit the hardest by the nerfs but the sweatiest and most knowledgeable players will either be gone or they will be more involved in achievement hunting versus helping newer players/groups, myself included.

MudcrabAttack

Weaving weapon attacks with a bow around ground cast abilities seems very responsive on PTS, on par with a staff or melee weapons. For the first time ever, I got .07 second weave with bow/bow, which is similar timing to what I would get with dual wield. If that was intentional, and not because of a light server load, thanks for the update.

MashmalloMan

Sorc:

Bound Armaments:
1. Provide the 8% stamina on the active skill, instead of passively so we don't need to double bar it.
2. Increase duration of self buffs like this across the board or remove them entirely and code the game to read both of your bars to see if you have it slotted, 40s is way too short. Toggle even? This patch was suppose improve buff management.
3. Give 2 stacks for a heavy attack instead of 1 like NBs Grim Focus.
4. Adjust the 0.3s frequency of the daggers firing out to 0.2 or even 0.1, this skill is not only extremely telegraphed pre-fire with the floating purple daggers, but due to the delay, extremely easy post-fire to dodge it completely.

If you do all of the above, remove the 50% cost reduction for firing daggers. These changes will make the skill more fun and reliable to use without breaking anything, I'd like a different buff than Stamina that is more hybrid friendly like crit chance, but that's another can of worms for another day.

Crystal Weapon:
1. Okay, treat its scaling as a ranged spammable for -10% DMG, but change the ranking increase to damage instead of penetration. Crushing Weapon, Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow, Crystal Frag and Rapid Strike rank up in damage, all of which have secondary effects too... Yet Crystal Weapon is the only one where the secondary effect is the focus of the ranking. It's literally the weakest spammable in the game now. It makes no sense and puts CW more than 10% behind these spammables, it's really -15% and 1k penetration is very weak, even if unnamed.
2. Increase the pen from 1k or remove it entirely for Sundered. This debuff doesn't secure stam sorcs a slot in raids, it's too small and infrequent to build around. This would increase the damage slightly, while capping the unnamed effect to a debuff making it weaker for groups, but stronger for Sorc - without pushing it overboard like update 34.
3. Increase the 2nd tick of damage from 30% to 50% or build a new stacking mechanic like Whip, the tick is so weak right now it barely passes any other skill you could weave it with that would pass the first tick outside of another spammable, I'd rather just cast it back to back for the first tick at this point like update 33 which defeats the purpose of the changes, we don't want to run 2 spammables on a class with no bar space.

If you do all of the above, remove the 10% cost reduction on next skill cast, Sorc has enough cost and sustain related bonuses, I'd rather the skill be more fun and competitive to use if this is holding it back.. There is a risk/reward playstyle using a skill like this over basic instant cast abilities that doesn't seem to be accounted for in your balance pass. Crushing Weapon is similar, but when it doesn't work you get a refund, when it does, you get major breach for 6x more pen, more raw damage and more DPS via the 5 orb passive.

Surge:
1. Increase the duration from 33s to 40s or even 60s - lines up with new standards, apply this same logic to all class self buffs. It is very odd that you didn't address this in a patch focused on easing buff management.
2. Adjust the CD on Crit Surge from 1s to 0.9s or lower to account for server vs client damage timing calculations, this would make it more consistent with how actual damage is timed.
3. Rebalance this skill for ESO's 2022 context, Crit Surge has only been buffed by 300 in the past 5 or 6 years, yet player health and damage has risen leaving the skill in limbo with no scaling to compensate. Increase the flat amount or make it scale. These morphs are Sorc's only hot, while they're strong on paper no doubt, Sorc doesn't have much to stack it with and it's a proc condition based on dealing critical damage, of which, crit chance has been lowered drastically recently. Heal and Damage tick frequency has also lowered by 50%-75%. We used to have DoTs and HoTs that ticked every 0.5s and we're at 1-2s now.
4. Change Power Surge from 3s CD to 2s or even 1s to account for how difficult it is to stack consistent Crit Heals harder than Crit Damage. Adjust the power of the skill accordingly downwards.

Shields and Defense.
1. Sorc is the only class that requires 2 slots for their burst heal, it's a good skill, but it gets killed when you need it and the 2 slots isn't worth the pitiful damage it does- space is too tight. This issue was magnified with the hybrid changes, all stam builds started using their class burst heal while mag builds started using Vigor - Sorc saw no real change or benefit here.
2. I'm willing to concede we can't have a 1 skill slot burst heal if Shields scaled off resources AND damage. This 1 change alone would open up a ton of build diversity and solidify Sorc's way of healing through damage is a mixture of HoTs underlayered through Shields which is effectively the same result, but unique. For reference, Resto Shield already scales from damage so what is the problem exactly?

Dark Deal vs Dark Exchange.
1. A bit heavy handed with the stam cost increase, but the increased return is nice.. I'm neutral.
2. Dark Deal's 10s, but quicker return is interesting.. it messes with prebuffing in pvp, but stam Sorc typically only fights for 10s before peeling and casting this again anyway, so again.. neutral.
3. Think about adding a very low hot to this skill to help with Sorcs self sustain in a more reliable, on demand way outside Surge. Aka.. do what you did to the resource return a few years ago. Instead of 100% upfront, give 75% upfront and 50% over the duration.

To illustrate that with current values:
Dark Deal = 6k health + 4k over 10s.
Dark Exchange = 7.5k + 5k over 20s.

Passives:
1. Adjust them for 2022 ESO context, the passives were made before Necro came out and the focus changed from multipliers to flat values. Aka, 10% mag Regen and 20% stam Regen are vastly weaker than 200 Stam/Mag Regen. DK and Templar had hybridized passives that made them much stronger and updates to things like combustion and world in ruin.
2. There is 6/12 sustain related passives - please give some love to healer, tanking or utility kits. Some classes have 2-3 sustain passives worth 6 of ours. Not asking to change how Sorc functions as a squishy class, but give something to those area's that supports that idea.. eg.. the -100% dodge roll cost you just gave to NBs. Very cool idea, fits their theme, yet still defensive.
3. Finish your hybrid pass on Crit/Damage, NB and Sorc still can't use their minor crit buff easily because we only have sets or Camo Hunter to get both crit buffs - we want an active option like Potions or a Skill.

Buffs/Debuffs:
1. Where Warden has a problem of too much of their power being centered around named Buffs/Debuffs, Sorc has the opposite. We have to spend too many skill, set, potion or poison slots to get access to them when we already use up 4-5 slots to prepare delayed burst or 2 for a class burst heal, arguably the tightest bar space of any class. Some classes have major/minor buffs and Debuffs attached to passives and numerous skills within their kit that make them one man armies.
2. Not asking for a lot, something as basic as major savagery on a skill we already use to help build variety would be nice.. sick of using Camo Hunter and Razor Caltrops for very basic buffs. I don't even dream about using Defile, Vitality or Mending. You added minor protection to Bound Aegis, but you basically solidified an already niche skill as only usable by tanks. If the shield changes went through, then minor endurance and intellect would be nice bonuses, but again, sustain related on a class with a billion sustain bonuses.
3. Do a damage type pass like DKs to make sure most if not all damage is Shock or Physical.
4. Don't need 10% element damage like Warden, but please give us a unique element bonus to play off of for shock/physical like Warden's 10% Crit Damage/Healing or DK's 50% poisoned/burning damage and resource return. Eg.. 10% chance on any physical/shock damage to deal 10% of the damage inflicted to enemies within 5m- this effect has a 1s CD or +20% damage to sundered/concussed status effects.

Atronach Ult:
1. I understand the nerf because you allowed the synergy to effect the caster, but you went too far and didn't consider the risk/reward again. 20s would be a fairer place than 15s as it takes a long time for the Atro to begin dealin damage due to the animation. This would let it surpass an ult like meteor damage wise, at least on a dummy. The atro can still be stunned, killed and it sits stationary where you use it. Besides body blocking (which should be removed from the game and can be avoided via tab targeting) I fail to see the positives of this ability and morphs anymore.

Auldwulfe

I read the new release, where they are going to return to scaling LA and HA ---
I will admit to a fear, though --- "you didn't like the 2250 cap we had, then fine, it scales again, at 1% of half your lowest stat .... there you go, scaling"

I am exaggerating, and am really looking forward to some people on PTS confirming how it works.
I also tend to go for benefit of the doubt, and rally want to believe it's going to be better.

Auldwulfe

MashmalloMan

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I read the new release, where they are going to return to scaling LA and HA ---
I will admit to a fear, though --- "you didn't like the 2250 cap we had, then fine, it scales again, at 1% of half your lowest stat .... there you go, scaling"

I am exaggerating, and am really looking forward to some people on PTS confirming how it works.
I also tend to go for benefit of the doubt, and rally want to believe it's going to be better.

Auldwulfe

Pretty sure what they're going to do.. well.. what they should do.. is increase the minimum damage and decrease how much it scales. I'm hoping their comments eluded to this because it ensures weaker builds can still utilize light/heavy attacks as they mostly rely on them, while not being locked to perfect weaving in their end game builds.

With that in mind, empower shouldn't be worth 80% like it is on pts(which forces everyone to use empower), it shouldn't even be worth 40% like live, this inevitably forces the need for weaving when you get into groups where it's provided for you via group sets.

I think that last point can't be any more obvious, especially since ZOS recently did a major/minor buff pass, lowering a lot of the damage bonuses to 5/10% and 10/20%.

Empower should be 20% imo, 25% tops.

If they want heavy attack players to be strong still, empower isn't the answer as it's a universal buff, the sets used to buff heavy attack builds are the direct way of closing whatever gap those changes may make, so buff those.

Iron_Warrior

So You guys changed flurry and jabs to 0.6 so they would be easier to weave. i want to ask this question: what about wreking blow? Why this skill is still at 0.8? Unlike jabs or flurry, people have been asking for a wreking blow/dyzzing swing cast time reduction for ages.

Edit: forget what i've said about the cast times, i thought they were at 0.6 in pts

virtus753

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

So You guys changed flurry and jabs to 0.6 so they would be easier to weave. i want to ask this question: what about wreking blow? Why this skill is still at 0.8? Unlike jabs or flurry, people have been asking for a wreking blow/dyzzing swing cast time reduction for ages.

Unlike jabs or flurry, you would've gotten praise for changing the animation of this skill...

Both Jabs and Flurry were changed to 0.8s with 8.1.0.

Did I miss something in more recent patch notes?

Iron_Warrior

virtus753 wrote: »

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

So You guys changed flurry and jabs to 0.6 so they would be easier to weave. i want to ask this question: what about wreking blow? Why this skill is still at 0.8? Unlike jabs or flurry, people have been asking for a wreking blow/dyzzing swing cast time reduction for ages.

Unlike jabs or flurry, you would've gotten praise for changing the animation of this skill...

Both Jabs and Flurry were changed to 0.8s with 8.1.0.

Did I miss something in more recent patch notes?

No no, just double checked, you are absolutely right, it's at 0.8. Thought they have changed them to 0.6 with animation changes. Still i really want to see a dyzzing swing animation change so it would become usable again in the laggy cyrodill

virtus753

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

So You guys changed flurry and jabs to 0.6 so they would be easier to weave. i want to ask this question: what about wreking blow? Why this skill is still at 0.8? Unlike jabs or flurry, people have been asking for a wreking blow/dyzzing swing cast time reduction for ages.

Unlike jabs or flurry, you would've gotten praise for changing the animation of this skill...

Both Jabs and Flurry were changed to 0.8s with 8.1.0.

Did I miss something in more recent patch notes?

No no, just double checked, you are absolutely right, it's at 0.8. Thought they have changed them to 0.6 with animation changes. Still i really want to see a dyzzing swing animation change so it would become usable again in the laggy cyrodill

Speaking of which, Jabs in particular is notorious in Cyro for only hitting once or twice instead of four times, even against guards with no other players around. Makes me wonder how they can possibly balance the skill properly in Cyro when it doesn't function properly when people are playing the most.

MashmalloMan

Please review this thread, your aoe static dot standards don't line up with the week 3 changes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7675778#Comment_7675778

To quote myself:

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Objective (PTS Week 3): Compare all class aoe static dots to eachother and check if the listed standard of 14% dps of a spammable, once a second actually applies.

Spoiler for prep, reasoning and what the standard is based on:

Preperation:

1. Khajiit passives on.
2. 64/64 Stamina.
3. No CP slottables or passives.
4. No class passives.
5. No passive increase from skills slotted like Fighters/Mages guild.
6. No armor, jewelry or weapons slotted.
7. No food.
8. No mundus stone.
9. No self applied buffs via potions or skills.

Reasoning:

1. Standards should be a stepping off point to make every skill worth slotting at a base level.
2. Passives from classes and morph effects are addative to what a skill is capable of at a minimum, thus they are removed from the equation. This aspect is what makes skills unique from each other so it shouldn't be accounted for when talking about standards, although those aspects are important for overall class balance and identity - that isn't the purpose of this post.

What is the standard really based on?

• The standard is based on instant melee cast spammables. Veiled Strike (unmorphed) is the prime example. The morphs increase in damage done by around 1% per rank (4 ranks) which puts it above the standard ZOS uses, just like class passives, ranking is a way for a skill to go above standards, every skills ranks up in some way.
• Instant melee spammables do not do 10% more damage than ranged spammables, ranged spammables do 10% less damage than melee spammables. Important distinction.
• Proof = (Veiled Strike) 3150 x 0.9 = (Imbue Weapon) 2835... if you reverse it, it comes out wrong. 2835 x 1.1 = 3118.5

Results:

• Winters Revenge (6m) - 399/1s over 12s. -30% movement speed, x5 status effect chance
• Lightning Splash (4m) - 381/1s over 10s. Damage Synergy.
• Lightning Flood (6m) - 511/1s over 10s. Damage Synergy.
• Twisting Path (15m cone) - 393/1s over 10s. Major Exp 4s.
• Unnerving Boneyard (6m) - 432/1s over 10s. +30% damage from corpse, Major Breach. Damage + Lifesteal Synergy.
• Eruption (5m)- 2440 + 432/1s over 15s. -70% movement speed
• Blazing Spear (6m) - 3174 + 245/1s over 10s. Resource restore synergy.
• Caltrops (8m) - 381/1s over 10s. -50% movement speed
• Necrotic Orb (8m/moving) - 428/1s over 10s. Resource restore synergy.
• Mystic Orb (8m/moving) - 442/1s over 10s. +100 mag/stam/hp reg, resource restore synergy.

Standard to compare to is 3150 damage from Veiled Strike. At 14% dps, that should be 441 damage per second.

• Winters Revenge needs a minimum 10% damage increase.
• Lightning Splash needs a minimum 16% damage increase.
• Lightning Flood increases in damage from the morph effect, so it's above the standard by nature, can't make an objective argument for where it should be.
• Twisting Path needs a minimum 13% damage increase.
• Boneyard needs a minimum 2% damage increase.
• Eruption and Blazing Spear are hard to be objective about because they have upfront damage that may be accounting for their damages power budget.
• Caltrops needs a minimum 16% damage increase.
• Necrotic Orb needs a minimum 3% damage increase.
• Mystic Orb is oddly the only skill to match the standard, but the skill increases in damage as it ranks (as well as for the regen)... This doesn't make sense as ranking shouldn't be used to meet standards, it should put it above standards.

Final thoughts:
Standards are used as a minimum baseline, many of these objectively fall short of that or have values that don't match. Why? What is the point of standards if they're not being used properly? The ranking, morph effects and class kits are what make the skills unique beyond the standards which is why I removed them from the equation to find how they factually compare to each other using ZOS's own logic.

Some classes are allowed to excel at different aspects of the game so I didn't find it necessary to compare things like Boneyard giving 30% more damage with a corpse or 10% more dot damage from the Necro kit which obviously makes it a very strong aoe static dot in comparison to the others. Again, those are special variables that are suppose to bring skills above standards, they're not used to meet them.

Then you have things like radius and duration which differs from as small as 4m to as large as 8m, yet none of the abilities seem to take that into account. Lightning Splash is the smallest at 4m, with the lowest dps, but it includes a synergy. Is it deliberately weaker because it has a synergy? We don't know if that was the logic, but we do understand the standards as ZOS clearly defined them, and it doesn't meet them objectively on almost all accounts. I wouldn't count Mystic Orb because it ranks up in damage to meet the standard.

ssewallb14_ESO

I mean I guess this technically raises the floor:

LunaticOne_

I didn't read every single comment in here, so excuse me if it came up already, but here are my two cents (beware, english is not my native language, so please excuse me for any mistakes):


Difficulty differences between content
A whole lot of explanation to answer why I consider this a problem

The gap between players you want to close is just about as big as the difficulty gap between several types of content. For example, the gap between normal and veteran dungeons or n/v raids is way too big, newbies running content on normal learn essentially nothing to prepare them for a veteran version where they actually have to do mechanics, deal damage, heal/purge and tank stuff - and therefore get absolutely smacked in the face for trying the veteran versions after doing only normal. Seriously, the general sentiment for normal dungeons is that you need neither tanks nor healers. If you want to close any gaps, you can't just work on one end (dps) and expect the others (increased difficulty) to fix themselves. Having a need for progression is good, but the general span is simply to wide, this problem right here didn't came out of nowhere, it progressed to it's level over the years. There's also the problem that older versions of veteran dungeons are a complete joke compared to newer dungeons, so there's not only a scaling problem between normal and veteran (veteran to hardmode is mostly okay I'd say) but also between several dungeons which are meant to be more or less on the same difficulty level. A difference is okay, engaging and in my opinion even needed as the game progresses, but I would advice a complete rebalance of content difficulty to atleast decrease the span of difficulty, which is, in my opinion, even more needed than a brute force attempt to close the gap between various player skills (which sadly hasn't worked out so far, but I don't want to explicitly topic this right here as I am sure you have a lot of valuable feedback on that end already) - despite that, I think it would help at that front, too. I would suggest increasing the general difficulty of all overland content (except maybe craglorn, or newer DLCs worldbosses), especially the older the content gets, increasing the difficulty of normal dungeons and raids in general while also having a greater focus on older content, slightly increasing the difficulty of arenas on normal only and increasing the difficulty of the oldest veteran dungeons in order to reduce (not terminate!) the difficulty difference between content that is more or less meant to be on the same difficulty level. I would also suggest to introduce some kind of standard for needed tankiness, damage and healing to help monitor and scale difficulty across several contents. With such a standard, when communicated openly, we as the community could make more precise suggestions as to what we think could need adjustments if we feel something might be off and of course you would have an easier time, too. For a game as long on the market as ESO is, with years of development and changes/adjustments on almost everything combat related, I think it might be time to include the frame, in other words, the content, especially older content, too. You can try to fix endgame players all the way you want, but if you really want to reduce the gap between players you may have to start somewhere else first - and I think that reducing the span of needed skill between content while also increasing the base difficuly to not "laughable" (sorry for that, just trying to be honest here) levels will help you with your goal to tone endgamers down dps-wise while also increasing the need for the average player to atleast learn the basics of the game (more regarding that further down)

We all know by now that this is a very complex topic with a lot of factors, we have hundreds of sets with millions of possible combinations, we have a lot of skills to choose from and all of that is good - we have variety, we can roleplay (which is especially skill wise kinda limited sadly - frost or lightning mages for example) or go all out on efficiency on one way or the other depending on content. The biggest problems ESO does have in my opinion balance wise are 1.) the difficultiy differences between content which can have a "slap in the face" effect on more casual players and result in disenganging them from wanting to progress further and leaves them more or less on the same skill and difficulty level or leaving the game, 2.) the absolutely monstrous amount of knowledge about pretty much everything which is more than simply overwhelming to new players (more in the next section) and pretty much needed for harder PvE content or PvP, 3.) the game doing a pretty mediocre job of teaching players the basics - sure, you have a tutorial, but it covers only a tiny bit of info and even more important at a point of the game, where the average player isn't really capable of truly understanding how important it is to remember all of this (okay, now it's time for the next section! )


Teaching the basics
Intro and two possible solutions

No matter what you want to do or achieve, every dedicated ESO player knows how important info is - and there's a whole lot of that in this game. Most players dedicate themselves to a specific playstyle because of that and usually, even among progress players or "true" endgamers, there are only a handful of players capable of teaching others how they will be able to achieve whatever they want to do most efficiently. We have hundreds of sets, millions of combinations for these and while some sets are more or less irrelevant or simply just starter versions of others, we have quite a few viable set options for PvE and even more so for PvP. It is not only a part of mastering the game to learn about all these sets and figuring out which sets have a potentially greater value for this or that in a specific situation or an other, it is in fact just the beginning. The true mastery lies in the availability to figure out which of the different options you have are combined best to achieve a specific goal. You have sets ((while you usually combine 4 (!) full sets, you could theoretically efficiently combine up to 5 full sets + 2 one piece parts or 1 two piece part of other sets - so we have up to 7 different sets or set parts being combined for a single build with a single purpose which is mostly seen in PvP, but also not impossible to be seen in PvE)), class, skills, passives, CPs, food, potions, poisons, weapon/jewelry/armor traits and enchantments, race and mundus as possible factors and you need to factor all of these in when it comes to creating a specific build for specific content. Needless to say that most people are understandably completley overwhelmed by all of this and either simply put on and play whatever they come up with by themselves or search for the next best build/guide they are able to find which is also risky at best because there is a lot of outdated content (especially on YouTube, a very popular source for info) out there because of the constant game shifting balance updates every 3 months. Both of these types, which pretty likely cover the most part of the player base, are part of the reason you came up with the idea of the changes currently tested on the pts. So the issue, the true issue, is not some players simply being significantly better than others, it is a combination of experience, knowledge and dedication that leads to some players exceeding others. The dedication part is especially important here, because the only players who manage to escape the misery of being an average or below average player are these who show enough dedication to try to learn atleast the most important aspects of the game at ANY cost and this alone makes a noticable difference considering the state of the game and the fact that a lot of info is only available otuside of the game itself. This game is simply not beginner friendly despite trying so much to become so. That's why I think you try to stay, or better said get, more beginner friendly the wrong way. This did also not come out of nowhere, it is a progress that developed with the constant changes over the last couple years. In addition to the absurd amount of available info in the current patch, there is also a lot of info we went through past patches, which are pretty much worthless now and we will likely have to adapt to a lot of new info coming with future patches making it also incredibly hard for players who used to play the game, learned it and come back after taking a break. Despite that, only a very small portion of the playerbase even reads the patch notes which you could btw also include ingame to help a bit on that front. Being able to keep up with all these constant, big changes, is also a part of the reason this gap exists and will, as it stands, further increase.

Which leads me to the actual point of this probably way too long section: We need a way to teach other players the basics and reduce the risk of them feeling overwhelmed. There are several possibilites to make this happen, a mentor system like it exists in Final Fantasy XIV is for example often getting mentioned. I don't know this system, but you might want to take a look into that. If that isn't for you, create your own mentor or teaching system. Since I don't know what's included in FFXIV, I will just say what I think is absolutely needed: A ingame way to communicate with people who proved to be an "expert" or atleast being experienced at the thing people have questions for at any giving time, with the option to stay anonymous in case shame or anxiety plays a role for the person needing help; they should be able to contact someone at any given time through this system and the persons who would be considered "teachers", "mentors" or whatever should apply for doing that. A possible way to create an easy check for the needed experience would be to create different categories for all kinds of ingame content like trading, housing, pvp, pve, etc and check or track the "expert" status via different achievements connected to the different categories of which you could add a few more to ensure the players applying for the mentor status actually having the experience YOU think they need. You could also create checks for mentors having played a specific class if the question asked resolves around a specific class. If you would create a system that would let those who ask for help, rate the help they received from someone, you could also introduce a reward system to motivate veteran players to keep helping others and if you would for example reward a few crowns for it, more or less ensure that people might want to look into it and keep on helping the new seeds to sprout and in consequence help creating an overall healthier game.

Another idea besides a "mentor" system is to create starter setups for different classes and rolls for PvE and PvP with chosen sets, skills, passives, CPs and whatever. The current skill advisor we have ingame is, and I am sorry for that, simply not helpful for anyone. Just like we have gotten the arsenal system to help with saving and accessing builds, I think a lot of players would love to have a system that advises whole builds for different purposes. The more accessible you would make this, the more you would help newer/inexperienced/casual players. I am sure that there are a lot of players (myself included) who would like to help creating a few simple starter setups that could be used to give overwhelmed players a clear and easy path to follow. That would make PvE AND PvP more accessible and depending on if you would choose that the sets are already included in these starter packs or not open up the possibility to simply jump in and take a look into content or roles, like a PvP DD for example, without having to wrap your head around if the investment of time, ressources and whatever is worth it only to find out that you may not like it at all. You could for example create setups for every class covering a base setup for the following roles: PvE/PvP Healer, PvE/PvP Tank, PvE/PvP melee DD, PvE/PvP range DD, PvE solo DD. That would make 9 setups per class including a complete setup with different set and weapon combinations with optimised traits, enchantments, a default mundus, a skill/passive/cp path to follow and recommended buff food plus potions. These setups would not have to be the absolute best or meta, the most important things would be to design them in a way that leaves room for improvement but shows a general idea of how a class can efficiently be played and revolves around a set/skill setup that can be considered beginner friendly and/or accessible. As said, I am pretty sure there are a lot of players who would like helping to create something like this. We, the community, can help you to create the game everyone of us wants, you have the tools, we have the experience, lets work together. The great thing about a system like that would be, that people who don't want to take the time to learn the basics (which is considering the time and effort it takes quite understandable) or simply don't have the time to do so, would still be able to complete the majority of content, be more efficient than they currently are and even would have a chance to see a light in PvP because honestly, many casual players don't even think about using another setup when it comes to trying out PvP and since PvP is 100% competitive, every new player will have a very hard time when they go in without any preparations. Maybe, but only maybe, it would be a good idea, to make the sets in these setups accessible without having to farm them. That's for you to decide, but please atleast consider the general idea of this concept.

That's it for now, I really hope someone sees this and passes it on. I have a lot of idea's for this game, many of these being QoL improvements, but considering the purpose of this thread/update, I tried to cut it as short as possible - even though I think I still failed this miserably. Well, anyways, thank you for reading if you did and if anyone does have thoughts about any of this, I'd like to hear them. Have a good day

Lalothen

I actually think the community needs to bear at least a bit of the responsibility for U35 for the following reason: Rejection of the previous attempt to cut the DPS of light attacks and place heavy attacks into pole position damagewise. Like it or not, it is a part of why we're where we're at now - and a bunch of players have been going out of their way to publicly make exactly the case for that over the past few weeks.

Why? Because as a lot of people keep rightly pointing out: light attack weaving is responsible for so much more than just the raw LA DPS that is gained from good weaving. Light attacks don't merely contribute 20%+ to a top end player's overall DPS on Live, they also account for the significant DPS increases provided by sets with proc conditions requiring light attack weaving. From Relequen, to Kjalnar (yes, not optimal but still a pretty good monster set), to Kinras et al; if you're not weaving light attacks well, you're not getting optimal uptime out of some of the most powerful set-related DoTs & buffs in the game. Add ultigen and to a lesser extent enchantment procs on top, and you've got two more reasons why being able to weave at least semi-decently further exacerbates peak DPS potential.

So what are we looking at as the true DPS-related impacted of top notch LA weaving on Live? 35-40% of total DPS more or less? (Anyone who has actually calculated it feel free to correct/narrow that figure down.) Roughly half of that is pure LA DPS - and of course logically that would be the most straightforward thing to target to reduce the impact that LA weaving has on overall DPS performance... but y'all got that canned back before Greymoor was released.

This isn't to say the way ZOS tried to go about making light attacks resource-yielding was good; it wasn't. However the premise of switching LAs & HAs around wasn't a bad one. In fact, implemented properly it would've cut peak potential whilst keeping LA-weave builds as top DPS dogs (they could even have restricted the proc requirement for sets like Relequen purely to light attacks to help enforce this) & easing resource management concerns to some degree, and concurrently raise the floor by improving the output of more straightforward & accessible heavy attack builds.

Why, you might ask, am I bringing this up now? It's simple: I feel like we would perhaps be looking at a somewhat different, measurably less intense set of changes today, had the community not so vehemently panned the above-mentioned change to the LA-HA dynamic back in March 2020 - in part because those 130k+ Live DPS parses would instead likely be in the 110K range. Which consequently leads to the other point people have been raising about the current changes: that certain HMs are already out of reach for most without lowering DPS further. Those HMs - some introduced after 2020, it's worth noting - would likely have less stringent DPS checks right now, had the ceiling been lower to begin with.

This isn't tacit endorsement of the current changes particularly, as I think they need a lot of work before they'll be viable for patching to the Live servers. However perhaps it does at least offer a little insight into why ZOS are resisting completely canning such sweeping combat changes this time? After all, they heeded the community before and dropped their proposed change, yet obviously feel that they are now in a position where they have to take more drastic action - in part as an inevitable result of that acquiescence.

sbr32

So if we had let them ruin the game a year or so ago they wouldn't have to come back and ruin it now?

No thanks, I had a ton of fun in the game in the time since that failed idea and I am glad to have had it.

Lalothen

sbr32 wrote: »

So if we had let them ruin the game a year or so ago they wouldn't have to come back and ruin it now?

No thanks, I had a ton of fun in the game in the time since that failed idea and I am glad to have had it.

Light attacks not being a major source of raw DPS but retaining a circa 20% contribution to overall DPS via all of the other already-associated perks - whilst additionaly improving resource recovery or something similar - would've "ruined the game", would it? That's the same sort of kneejerk non-argument that got bandied around nonstop two years ago.

And frankly, if you're going to render down your gameplay experience to "I had a ton of fun because my LAs continued to hit really hard" - essentially what you're implying with that second sentence..... then yikes.

sbr32

Lalothen wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

So if we had let them ruin the game a year or so ago they wouldn't have to come back and ruin it now?

No thanks, I had a ton of fun in the game in the time since that failed idea and I am glad to have had it.

Light attacks not being a major source of raw DPS but retaining a circa 20% contribution to overall DPS via all of the other already-associated perks - whilst additionaly improving resource recovery or something similar - would've "ruined the game", would it? That's the same sort of kneejerk non-argument that got bandied around nonstop two years ago.

And frankly, if you're going to render down your gameplay experience to "I had a ton of fun because my LAs continued to hit really hard" - essentially what you're implying with that second sentence..... then yikes.

I don't remember how long that ridiculous idea was on the PTS, but the reaction was overwhelmingly negative, so much so that it is one of the only times that they pulled back and scrapped something they put on the PTS. It was not fun and was very unpopular. I can't see how that is either "kneejerk" or a "non-argument".

As for the second part, I'm not sure why you felt the need to create a straw man by putting words in my mouth and then rail against those, but ... yikes. I did not enjoy the proposed LA/HA changes from 2 years ago (or whenever) and wouldn't have played the game as much if they had gone through. They did not go through, so I continued to play the game and in that time I had a lot of fun and met lots of cool people, and none of that had anything to do with how much anyone's LAs hit for. It was because the game was fun so me and other cool people continued to enjoy it together.