PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Tannus15

@Rimskjegg your sorc parse hasn't got any empower buff on the buff list.
i'm guessing you don't have the mages guild passive?

also your sorc is missing blue CP being slotted

both builds would benefit a lot with weapon expert giving the 20% extra heavy attack damage

Rimskjegg

Lalothen wrote: »

I guess there is another option for Empower to avoid an MA meta if it's going to be incredibly unpopular though:

Empower - increases the damage of fully-charged heavy attacks against monsters by 240%.

I'm basing that percentage on a lightning staff heavy which currently has 3 tics total on the PTS, so instead of 3 tics buffed by 80% it'd be the 1 final tic buffed by 240%.

This would likely open the door a bit more too for non-lightning (or resto, lolz) heavy builds... I think?

Wouldn't that just mean Resto and Inferno staff heavy attacks now do 3 times as much damage as before? Since all their boom is at the end. Nobody asked for heavy attack weaving to be the new meta, just close enough in damage so heavy attack users aren't denied any place in vet raids.

I'm fine with lightning staff ticking for 80% extra just on the last boom, actually. Lightning heavies still do 100% of their damage to surrounding enemies. It's the AoE option. Inferno heavies could be stronger on individual targets, just like it buffs single target skills. Sergeant's Mail+Relequen or Sergeant's Mail+Infallible Aether with single target weapons, Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver/Storm Master lightning staff would be good for trash packs. Or so I imagine?

I've also been thinking about my idea for the Searing Strike passive. I don't mean Claw/Embers and Engulfing/Breath should be spammables of course. DoTs now tick every 2 seconds. Make the passive boost the 2nd and 3rd tick. I don't really do PvP, but I bet that would make those DoTs strong enough to be worthwhile in PvP again. Maybe too strong? If so, just spread the damage from those 4 extra seconds out over the 10 or so ticks of a 20-second duration instead. Yes, then Dragonknight Standard would need a little extra love to compensate for 4 seconds less of 15% extra damage to everything. if nothing else, it all just illustrates how one small change quickly cascades and the consequences become unforeseeable without extensive testing. Please, ZoS, take at least the next 3 months with these changes before going live.

Rimskjegg

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Rimskjegg your sorc parse hasn't got any empower buff on the buff list.
i'm guessing you don't have the mages guild passive?

also your sorc is missing blue CP being slotted

both builds would benefit a lot with weapon expert giving the 20% extra heavy attack damage

Yes, I thought I mentioned that Sorc doesn't have innate access to Empower, unlike DK.

No blue CP... whoops

Rimskjegg

@Tannus15 Oh I see the CP problem now. My live parse didn't have blue CPs slotted either so slotting it for the PTS wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison. Please regard it as.. a low-CP experiment
Edit: tagged the correct player now

Tannus15

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Rimskjegg your sorc parse hasn't got any empower buff on the buff list.
i'm guessing you don't have the mages guild passive?

also your sorc is missing blue CP being slotted

both builds would benefit a lot with weapon expert giving the 20% extra heavy attack damage

Yes, I thought I mentioned that Sorc doesn't have innate access to Empower, unlike DK.

No blue CP... whoops

yeah, but it should be on your buff for 10s every time you cast degeneration, so 40s. when you're running that build i recommend recasting degen every 10s instead of 24s. you lose out on dot damage, but you gain higher empower times

MashmalloMan

@Rimskjegg For DK, you had a necklace as Mag instead of Stam with Spell Damage, as well as Gloves and Boots with Magicka that would go wasted as hybrid scaling only inherits the highest of the 2 sources from damage and max resources. Arcane and Robust happen to be the weakest of the jewelry traits, if you can update, try Bloodthirsty or even Infused.

For Sorc's, they typically don't fair too well against the non trial dummy's as they don't have innate access to major breach so you'll notice you're doing about 6-7k less penetration between the 2 parses despite using Light Armor, this is a substantial nerf to your dps. This is usually why the trial dummy is used to better compare parses 1 to 1, because in a group setting many of the shortcomings for the classes are covered like Sorc's missing Major Breach.

Those dummy's are perfectly fine for a solo or even a 4 man dungeon build for testing in some cases, but if that is the purpose, I would suggest slotting Razor Caltrops or Crushing Weapon on your Sorc to help with the massive gap.

Rimskjegg

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@Rimskjegg For DK, you had a necklace as Mag instead of Stam with Spell Damage, as well as Gloves and Boots with Magicka that would go wasted as hybrid scaling only inherits the highest of the 2 sources from damage and max resources. Arcane and Robust happen to be the weakest of the jewelry traits, if you can update, try Bloodthirsty or even Infused.

For Sorc's, they typically don't fair too well against the non trial dummy's as they don't have innate access to major breach so you'll notice you're doing about 6-7k less penetration between the 2 parses despite using Light Armor, this is a substantial nerf to your dps. This is usually why the trial dummy is used to better compare parses 1 to 1, because in a group setting many of the shortcomings for the classes are covered like Sorc's missing Major Breach.

Those dummy's are perfectly fine for a solo or even a 4 man dungeon build for testing in some cases, but if that is the purpose, I would suggest slotting Razor Caltrops or Crushing Weapon on your Sorc to help with the massive gap.

Thanks for pointing all this out. I appreciate the helpful spirit. I screwed up on the CPs, didn't realize I'd forgotten to slot them on live. Otherwise the sub-optimal setups don't matter because the point was to compare live to PTS, not necessarily showcase optimal setups. Never meant to compare the Sorc and DK to each other. But since the CPs cast a shadow on the DK results I'll delete them from the post and let the rest stand.

See, it's not actually that hard to admit a mistake and then delete some stuff once you've been made to realize it's rubbish.

Tyrion87

Do not release the combat changes, for now give us dungeons only.

It has to be said loud and clear: combat changes in U35 are disastrous and drastic changes that have been made each week on the PTS are rushed and not thought out well. They prove you missed the point with your initial vision and no 'adjustment' will change that. They have been made ad hoc only to minimize all the damage caused to combat system and to extinguish all the fire, but overall it still does not work. Example: Empower changes that make sets (like Galenwe) and abilities (like Ambush, Solar Barrage) obsolete, awkward and useless. At this point you clearly have not enough time to release thoroughly thought out and tested changes to core combat without harming your playbase.

How did we come to the point where we don't want the new DLC which we should be hyped for because all the things attached to it kill the excitement and anticipation completely.

Rimskjegg

Tannus15 wrote: »

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Rimskjegg your sorc parse hasn't got any empower buff on the buff list.
i'm guessing you don't have the mages guild passive?

also your sorc is missing blue CP being slotted

both builds would benefit a lot with weapon expert giving the 20% extra heavy attack damage

Yes, I thought I mentioned that Sorc doesn't have innate access to Empower, unlike DK.

No blue CP... whoops

yeah, but it should be on your buff for 10s every time you cast degeneration, so 40s. when you're running that build i recommend recasting degen every 10s instead of 24s. you lose out on dot damage, but you gain higher empower times

Excellent point. Really just goes to show how all these changes will so easily hurt anyone who isn't extremely on point with following every little detail in the changes. Lots of changes = wider gap, every time.

Lalothen

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Wouldn't that just mean Resto and Inferno staff heavy attacks now do 3 times as much damage as before? Since all their boom is at the end. Nobody asked for heavy attack weaving to be the new meta, just close enough in damage so heavy attack users aren't denied any place in vet raids.

Part of my reasoning is based on this info from X_K:

From top to Bottom Damage per Cast
Resto 328k
Lightning 320k
Duel Wield 210k
Bow 168k
Inferno 153k
Ice 132k
SwordandShield 128k
Greatsword 121k
All using the same Build during off balance with empower up.

There is a huge disparity in the amount of damage a fully charged heavy attack does between weapons, mostly because Resto, Lightning & DW perform additional hits, all of which benefit from the current version of Empower.

By concentrating the benefit of Empower into the "fully-charged" hit, there will be far more parity between weapon types, it'll nip the MA meta in the bud before it starts (again), and it shouldn't make an overall difference to what HA builds can peak at so long as resto & lightning staff final hits get tweaked downwards a bit.

Doing some quick maths with Resto, DW & Inferno as examples (I'm not sure of the order of application between off-balance & Empower, so I'm just going to address Empower):

(EDIT: Ok I've looked into some it more and the final tic of both lightning & resto staves do about 61% more damage than one of the channeled tics, so I've redone the calculation below to account for that.)

Resto:
(328k/180)*100 = 182,222 total without Empower
182,222 - 55% = 81,999
(182,222 - 45%)/2 = 50,111

81,999 + 240% = 278,797
278,797 + (50,111*2) = 379,019 total damge with my suggested Empower

This would mean that the final hit for Resto would need to come down by around 25%, putting the final channeled heavy damage at 309,319ish. It could ostensibly come down further than that - say 30% or so. The heal-on-hit coefficient would need adjusting downwards too.

Dual Wield:
210k/2 = 105,000
(105,000/180)*100 = 58,333 per tic without current Empower

58,333+240% = 198,332
198,332 + 58,333 = 256,665 total damage with my suggested Empower

Inferno:
153k
(153,000/180)*100 = 85,000 without current Empower

85,000+240% = 289,000 total damage with my suggested Empower

I think I calculated those correctly (Please let me know if I messed up).

Mr_Stach

I feel like we need to talk about the enjoyment of combat, the enjoyment of playing the game. I'm very vocal on my distaste for this update from the stance of a Warden Main, we've all talked about how the numbers don't make sense, how it's important to make sure that we're able to do well and that this patch is just going to hurt basically everyone who care about any content outside of normal difficulties.

Not only is this very frustrating, but this is making the game less fun.
YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY FUN ON A SPREADSHEET

People just want to enjoy the game, for the last 5 years, I've tried to push for Warden Changes to make it fun, it was mostly on Reddit, which was a huge mistake and I switched over here recently to try to take a more active push in trying to get my voice along with other Warden's Voices Heard to make Warden Fun Again, we've had very small steps in the right direction.

This Patch though along with the previous patch is a big step back not just for Warden, but for many classes.

I won't assume to know your process. But This weeks changes once again push Warden into a not fun direction, pushing a convoluted change onto Scorch and Morphs that make a skill that is easily counteracted much worse.

PrincessOfThieves

[

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

90k+ Resto Heavy Parses are Not Okay
Seriously. That's what the current version of this patch has enabled.
Resto staff is particularly egregious but across the board this is completely overboard on heavy attack builds.
Not to mention that classes like Sorcerer and Warden don't even have in-class access to empower, whereas Templars, DKs, Necros, and Nightblades ALL do. How is this fair?!
Also, this doesn't even require a fully charged heavy attack! So... a medium weaving meta? Seriously?
One step forward, two steps back doesn't even begin to describe this patch.

Yeah. Heavy attack builds should be a thing, but this is just ridiculous. They should just stop changing things so drastically. Limit the changes to 5-10% and we will have a much healthier game.

xylena_lazarow

Mr_Stach wrote: »

YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY FUN ON A SPREADSHEET

Sure you can, they just have to look at how many players have already quit and will continue to quit...

What spreadsheet told them that grossly overpowered PvP heal and debuff proc sets would be fun?

What spreadsheet told them that DoT dps needed a nerf in PvP?

KlauthWarthog

So... decided to check that old friend of ours, medium-weaving, on the PTS.

Templar, weaving Dark Flare.
3-mil skeleton, high-sustain setup to remove sustain as a variable.

1. Light-attack weaving:

As a side note, that was the first attempt, and light-attack weaving was a breeze.
As a spoilerific side note, medium-attack weaving was... a lot more involved.

2. Medium-attack weaving:

After 15 or so attempts, it was still bad, and it still beat the light-attack parse.
Dark flare loves getting stuck when you are medium-weaving, apparently, and sometimes takes longer to cast than usual, throwing any muscle-memory out of the window.

Main conclusions... the brand new empower brings back our old friend, medium-weaving.
Light attacks capped at 4046 on that setup, medium attacks at 9832. That... is a pretty large difference. The reason it did not show as such on the parses is because I just flat out quit trying after dark flare decided to take about 3s to finish casting while trying to get a perfect medium-weave parse.
So, the gap while weaving light attacks might have closed a fair amount, but... the meta might shift to medium weaves, which are far harder to master, and the actual DPS gap may very well increase as a result.

Dagobertfuk

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. It wasnt stronger than other Heals. Even Pts Vigor is way stronger with decent weapon/spellpower than U34 Dark Cloak. And since vigor gets major resolve for 20seconds, its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

My Nightblade in Cyrodiil on live servers with 40k HP gets 2,6k hps with dark cloak. After the first Dark Cloak Nerf in pts week one or two, i had to be 50% Player HP to get the heal value from live servers. Right now on pts after the second nerf, i have to be at 10% player HP to get almost old value of 2520 hps. I did the math with the pts maximum of 14%. Even Vampire Drain, a skill nobody with more than 2 braincells is using in PvP to heal up, heals more than actual PTS Dark Cloak.

Any reason why anyone should use PTS Dark Cloak instead of another healing ability other than for style? I can't think of any. Mainly because every other healing ability heals me more by a frightening margin, no matter how much HP I have, except at 10% where Dark Cloak get it old healing value.
Image when i dont have 40k HP. Hard to imagine but it gets even worse rofl.

But a skill that only really works, when i am already with both legs in the grave, in execute range and eating 400% extra dmg from enemy execute's, is a total abilityslot waste.

When zos worked on dark cloak their minds were elsewhere.

Lalothen

Based on my previous posts I decided to test all the weapon types on the PTS. These tests were done on the Target Centurion, Lambent, which is classified as a "normal trial dummy". I had all weapon skill line passives, had not allocated any stat points, and only utilised basic CP160 weapons, along with wearing 7 pieces of basic CP160 light armor with the penetration passive, giving a total of 10,977 penetration. I procced Empower using Empowering Grasp.

I then added Sergeant's Mail (+2580) & Noble Duelist (+2110) buffs (just on paper) to give some idea of what they can scale up to with PTS Empower.

I then recalculated what the hits would look like if Empower were changed to buff the final hit only by 160% (down from my earlier 240% suggestion), and added my thoughts on how to alter damage in some instances to provide more parity.

Restoration staff:

No skill line passives increase Restoration staff damage.

Unempowered: 390 tic x 2 then 2,346 final hit = 3,126 total
PTS Empower: 703 tic x 2 then 4,223 final hit = 5,629 total
My Empower suggestion: 390 tic x 2 then 6,100 final hit = 6,880 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,080 tic x 2 then 7,036 final hit = 17,136 total
PTS Empower: 9,144 x 2 then 12,665 final hit = 30,953 total
My Empower suggestion: 5,080 tic x 2 then 18,294 final hit = 28,454 total

Thoughts: reduce the final hit damage by 50%. Coupled with my Empower suggestion, this would give:
5,080 tic x 2 then 15,244 final hit = 25,404 total

Lightning staff:

With skill line passives - PM 10% resist ignored:

Unempowered: 651 tic x 2 then 1957 final hit = 3,259 total
PTS Empower: 1,173 tic x 2 then 3,522 final hit = 5,868 total
My Empower suggestion: 651 tic x 2 then 5088 final hit = 6,390 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,341 tic x 2 then 6,647 final hit = 17,329 total
PTS Empower: 9,614 tic x 2 then 11,965 final hit = 31,193 total
My Empower suggestion: 5,341 tic x 2 then 17,282 final hit = 27,964 total

Thoughts: Leave this as it is.

Inferno staff:

With skill line passives - T-foc +12% fully-charged HA, PM 10% resist ignored, AK +10% ST dmg

Unempowered: 2,595 final hit
PTS Empower: 4,671 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 6,747 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 7,285 final hit
PTS Empower: 13,113 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 18,941 final hit final hit

Thoughts: Leave this as it is since there's only a single hit occurring, so HA-buffing sets are only adding damage to 1 hit instead of 2 or 3.

Ice staff:

With skill line passives - PM 10% resist ignored

Unempowered: 2,127 final hit
PTS Empower: 3,829 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 5,530 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 6,817 final hit
PTS Empower: 12,271 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 17,724 final hit

Thoughts: Again leave this as it is - same reasoning as for Inferno.

Bow:

With skill line passives - L-shots +12% dmg, H-Eye +25% dmg

Unempowered: 3,674 final hit
PTS Empower: 6,613 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 9,552 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 8,364 final hit
PTS Empower: 15,055 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 21,746 final hit

Thoughts: leave this as it is, since it requires optimum distance & 5 stacks of Hawk Eye.

1H/SH:

With skill line passives - S+B +5% wp/sp

Unempowered: 1,966 final hit
PTS Empower: 3,539 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 5,112 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 6,656 final hit
PTS Empower: 11,981 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 17,306 final hit

Thoughts: Leave this as it is since it's fairly similar to Ice staff damage.

DW:

With skill line passives - DW Exp +6% off-hand wp/sp, TB&B +284 wp/sp for sword x2

Unempowered: 793 x 2 final hit = 1486 total
PTS Empower: 1427 x 2 final hit = 2854 total
My Empower Suggestion: 2,062 x 2 final hit = 4,124 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,483 x 2 final hit = 10,966 total
PTS Empower: 9869 x 2 final hit = 19,738 total
My Empower suggestion: 14,256 x 2 final hit = 28,512 total

Thoughts: as @Rimskjegg pointed out in a post below, DW should be fine being the most powerful under my proposition because it's purely single target melee, thus fitting the "greater risk, greater reward" theme - and I agree.

2H:

With skill line passives - H-weaps +284 wp/sp for Greatsword

Unempowered: 2,341 final hit
PTS Empower: 4,214 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 6,087 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 7,013 final hit
PTS Empower: 12,623 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 18,234 final hit

Thoughts: Increase the fully-charged 2H HA by approximately 15%, to yield (with sergeant and noble buffs):

Unempowered: 7,382 final hit
PTS Empower: 13,288 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 19,193 final hit

Given the Forceful passive causes 2H light & heavy attacks to damage up to 3 nearby enemies, this makes a 2H HA setup with my version of Empower an attractive melee alternative to DW despite the ST damage being significantly lower (though lightning staff will still outperform it).

With tweaks to things like Resto I'd say an Empower that buffs fully-charged heavies by 160% would yield the sort of HA love you're looking to provide - and decrease the disparity between channeled heavies and one-hit heavies fairly significantly - and avoid the MA meta that will be very unpopular if it goes Live.

exiledtyrant

Ran 5 parses similar to prior test done in previous weeks.

Parse 1: Crystal weapon as a stand alone spammable and Whirling blades at 20% with no crystal weaving
Parse 2: Whirling blades as the main spammable with crystal weapon before each Whirling Blades.
Parse 3: Flurry Main spammable with whirling at 20%
Parse 4: Bound Armaments version of Flurry rotation
Parse 5: Pet version with Flurry rotation

Results:

Parse 1: 61k
Parse 2: 65k
Parse 3: 68k
Parse 4: 66k
Parse 5: 70k

Video of Parses Found Here:

https://youtu.be/m1Otwq5xhJY

Initial Conclusions:

Overall damage seems to be up around 5% which I assume is from the light attack changes. This is of course comparing similar setups to previous weeks. Flurry is still outpacing class based spammables by a lot. Twilight is not only ahead in damage but also ease of use when compared to Bound Armaments setups.

If changes are still in the pipeline outside of number tweaks, I really would like to see crystal weapon retain the functionality of combining with another skill to do damage. Maybe it would be better as just another buff? Something like:

The Sorceror imbues their weapons with Dark crystals for 10 seconds making their skills cost 10% less resources and deal X amount of damage on light attack. Every time crystal weapon deals damage increase the damage by X.

That way it could be scaled up to meet the average spammable damage of a single target skill over 10 seconds but you would have to land a majority of your light attacks to benefit from it. It would also lower the potential burst problem the current skill has. It would also be nice if bound armaments could just stay always on. It would go a long way to reduce the weird gaps it leaves in rotation when it just falls off. Light weaving disrupts clipping the skill early to rebuff as every weave spawns another sword putting you in an awkward situation.

Will try to get another 10 second vs 15 second rotation setup done this week, but its been rather hard to get a reliable parse on PTS. There have so many lag spikes and time outs I haven't been able to get a set done until today.

abeodesee

Anybody have any views on dps from a sorc tank perspective, playing a pure health tank solo upto endgame was slow which i expected but with the new light/heavy attacks the dps is a little lower and resource management seems ok - anybody tried banished cells 2 vet to do tests ?

WrathOfInnos

I believe there is still more work to be done with Warden's Scorch ability and morphs. The dev comment states that that the 10s timing was "too disruptive with those who are familiar with the class" and I agree completely. However the new 9s version is not any better in this regard. The 3s rhythm is defined by casting Deep Fissure every 3rd skill, and casting it every 9th does not provide this rhythm.

It is implied by the notes that players can choose to cast Deep Fissure every 3s instead of waiting until 9s, but this results in significantly lower damage (in part because the 2nd hit at 9s is the powerful one). For comparison, a player using DF every 9s can do the following over 18s:

16X spammable (2376) + 2X Deep Fissure both hits (2850 + 3960) = 51636

While a player casting DF every 3s can do:

12X spammable (2376) + 6X Deep Fissure 1st hit (2850) = 45612

That is a massive difference, and anyone who cares about dealing damage effectively will be forced to use the 9s duration. This also fits poorly with every DoT in the game, where most are now 10, 15, 20 or 30s. If it were a 3s timer then at least we could plan around the 15 and 30s morphs of various skills for a clean rotation.

For Subterranean Assault, I'm very happy that the duration is back to 6s. However, as pointed out by @skinnycheeks this morph is underpowered compared to Deep Fissure, even if you ignore the armor debuffs. In the same 18s duration shown above, a player using SA can do:

15X spammable (2376) + 6X Subterranean hits (2591) = 51186

This all seems very backward. The 9s morph deals the most DPS, followed by the 6s morph, and the classic Warden 3s rhythm gives much lower DPS than either. Choosing a more active rotation is rewarded by dealing less damage. I'm for all 3 being similar, but recasting on 3s should deal slightly more damage overall than waiting until 9, and subterranean should fall between these 2 options.

My recommendation would be to swap the 1st and 2nd hits on Deep Fissure, so the larger one occurs first and only the weaker one is lost if recast early. This would result in the 3s rhythm producing 52,272 damage, and slightly outperforming the 9s with 51636. Then Subterranean could get a flat 5% increase to its damage, which would result in each hit dealing 2720 damage, and a total of 51960 in 18s with 12 spammables (almost directly between the 2 rotation options with Deep Fissure).

Mr_Stach

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I believe there is still more work to be done with Warden's Scorch ability and morphs. The dev comment states that that the 10s timing was "too disruptive with those who are familiar with the class" and I agree completely. However the new 9s version is not any better in this regard. The 3s rhythm is defined by casting Deep Fissure every 3rd skill, and casting it every 9th does not provide this rhythm.

It is implied by the notes that players can choose to cast Deep Fissure every 3s instead of waiting until 9s, but this results in significantly lower damage (in part because the 2nd hit at 9s is the powerful one). For comparison, a player using DF every 9s can do the following over 18s:

16X spammable (2376) + 2X Deep Fissure both hits (2850 + 3960) = 51636

While a player casting DF every 3s can do:

12X spammable (2376) + 6X Deep Fissure 1st hit (2850) = 45612

That is a massive difference, and anyone who cares about dealing damage effectively will be forced to use the 9s duration. This also fits poorly with every DoT in the game, where most are now 10, 15, 20 or 30s. If it were a 3s timer then at least we could plan around the 15 and 30s morphs of various skills for a clean rotation.

For Subterranean Assault, I'm very happy that the duration is back to 6s. However, as pointed out by @skinnycheeks this morph is underpowered compared to Deep Fissure, even if you ignore the armor debuffs. In the same 18s duration shown above, a player using SA can do:

15X spammable (2376) + 6X Subterranean hits (2591) = 51186

This all seems very backward. The 9s morph deals the most DPS, followed by the 6s morph, and the classic Warden 3s rhythm gives much lower DPS than either. Choosing a more active rotation is rewarded by dealing less damage. I'm for all 3 being similar, but recasting on 3s should deal slightly more damage overall than waiting until 9, and subterranean should fall between these 2 options.

My recommendation would be to swap the 1st and 2nd hits on Deep Fissure, so the larger one occurs first and only the weaker one is lost if recast early. This would result in the 3s rhythm producing 52,272 damage, and slightly outperforming the 9s with 51636. Then Subterranean could get a flat 5% increase to its damage, which would result in each hit dealing 2720 damage, and a total of 51960 in 18s with 12 spammables (almost directly between the 2 rotation options with Deep Fissure).

My recommendation would be to just make them both 3/6 Timers. Give them both major breach. And then something interesting to differentiate them. Like Sub Assault makes Hemorrhage Procs do more Damage for 10s. Fissure does extra damage to Chilled Targets.

This different timer stuff is annoying

WrathOfInnos

Mr_Stach wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I believe there is still more work to be done with Warden's Scorch ability and morphs. The dev comment states that that the 10s timing was "too disruptive with those who are familiar with the class" and I agree completely. However the new 9s version is not any better in this regard. The 3s rhythm is defined by casting Deep Fissure every 3rd skill, and casting it every 9th does not provide this rhythm.

It is implied by the notes that players can choose to cast Deep Fissure every 3s instead of waiting until 9s, but this results in significantly lower damage (in part because the 2nd hit at 9s is the powerful one). For comparison, a player using DF every 9s can do the following over 18s:

16X spammable (2376) + 2X Deep Fissure both hits (2850 + 3960) = 51636

While a player casting DF every 3s can do:

12X spammable (2376) + 6X Deep Fissure 1st hit (2850) = 45612

That is a massive difference, and anyone who cares about dealing damage effectively will be forced to use the 9s duration. This also fits poorly with every DoT in the game, where most are now 10, 15, 20 or 30s. If it were a 3s timer then at least we could plan around the 15 and 30s morphs of various skills for a clean rotation.

For Subterranean Assault, I'm very happy that the duration is back to 6s. However, as pointed out by @skinnycheeks this morph is underpowered compared to Deep Fissure, even if you ignore the armor debuffs. In the same 18s duration shown above, a player using SA can do:

15X spammable (2376) + 6X Subterranean hits (2591) = 51186

This all seems very backward. The 9s morph deals the most DPS, followed by the 6s morph, and the classic Warden 3s rhythm gives much lower DPS than either. Choosing a more active rotation is rewarded by dealing less damage. I'm for all 3 being similar, but recasting on 3s should deal slightly more damage overall than waiting until 9, and subterranean should fall between these 2 options.

My recommendation would be to swap the 1st and 2nd hits on Deep Fissure, so the larger one occurs first and only the weaker one is lost if recast early. This would result in the 3s rhythm producing 52,272 damage, and slightly outperforming the 9s with 51636. Then Subterranean could get a flat 5% increase to its damage, which would result in each hit dealing 2720 damage, and a total of 51960 in 18s with 12 spammables (almost directly between the 2 rotation options with Deep Fissure).

My recommendation would be to just make them both 3/6 Timers. Give them both major breach. And then something interesting to differentiate them. Like Sub Assault makes Hemorrhage Procs do more Damage for 10s. Fissure does extra damage to Chilled Targets.

This different timer stuff is annoying

I have no problem with them going back to 3/6. Just was trying to leave the option for anyone that wanted to only cast every 9-10s. I really don't want to be forced into that meta.

Mr_Stach

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I believe there is still more work to be done with Warden's Scorch ability and morphs. The dev comment states that that the 10s timing was "too disruptive with those who are familiar with the class" and I agree completely. However the new 9s version is not any better in this regard. The 3s rhythm is defined by casting Deep Fissure every 3rd skill, and casting it every 9th does not provide this rhythm.

It is implied by the notes that players can choose to cast Deep Fissure every 3s instead of waiting until 9s, but this results in significantly lower damage (in part because the 2nd hit at 9s is the powerful one). For comparison, a player using DF every 9s can do the following over 18s:

16X spammable (2376) + 2X Deep Fissure both hits (2850 + 3960) = 51636

While a player casting DF every 3s can do:

12X spammable (2376) + 6X Deep Fissure 1st hit (2850) = 45612

That is a massive difference, and anyone who cares about dealing damage effectively will be forced to use the 9s duration. This also fits poorly with every DoT in the game, where most are now 10, 15, 20 or 30s. If it were a 3s timer then at least we could plan around the 15 and 30s morphs of various skills for a clean rotation.

For Subterranean Assault, I'm very happy that the duration is back to 6s. However, as pointed out by @skinnycheeks this morph is underpowered compared to Deep Fissure, even if you ignore the armor debuffs. In the same 18s duration shown above, a player using SA can do:

15X spammable (2376) + 6X Subterranean hits (2591) = 51186

This all seems very backward. The 9s morph deals the most DPS, followed by the 6s morph, and the classic Warden 3s rhythm gives much lower DPS than either. Choosing a more active rotation is rewarded by dealing less damage. I'm for all 3 being similar, but recasting on 3s should deal slightly more damage overall than waiting until 9, and subterranean should fall between these 2 options.

My recommendation would be to swap the 1st and 2nd hits on Deep Fissure, so the larger one occurs first and only the weaker one is lost if recast early. This would result in the 3s rhythm producing 52,272 damage, and slightly outperforming the 9s with 51636. Then Subterranean could get a flat 5% increase to its damage, which would result in each hit dealing 2720 damage, and a total of 51960 in 18s with 12 spammables (almost directly between the 2 rotation options with Deep Fissure).

My recommendation would be to just make them both 3/6 Timers. Give them both major breach. And then something interesting to differentiate them. Like Sub Assault makes Hemorrhage Procs do more Damage for 10s. Fissure does extra damage to Chilled Targets.

This different timer stuff is annoying

I have no problem with them going back to 3/6. Just was trying to leave the option for anyone that wanted to only cast every 9-10s. I really don't want to be forced into that meta.

I don't think anyone does. And if it goes live I won't be playing it.

How much feedback is required for them to go back to the drawing board?

JMadFour

Mr_Stach wrote: »

YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY FUN ON A SPREADSHEET

But you can quantify fun on an inanimate target dummy.

I'm not disagreeing with you in any way. I just find the "spreadsheet" complaint, specifically, to be hilarious, considering how this community bases basically everything on a parse number.

Mr_Stach

JMadFour wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY FUN ON A SPREADSHEET

But you can quantify fun on an inanimate target dummy.

I'm not disagreeing with you in any way. I just find the "spreadsheet" complaint, specifically, to be hilarious, considering how this community bases basically everything on a parse number.

I think Testing Ability Damage and overall DPS is essential, Dummy Parses are just one part of testing. Going out and doing content feeling how something plays is very important as well.

I think both Static Tests in the form of Dummy Parses, which basically show the ideal environment of what your class/build/skill can do. As well as Contextual Tests in the form of Content, to show how your Class fits and feels in a group dynamic.

You need both, doing a billion damage but the Combat or Rotation is Dull or Problematic is not well balanced, or on the flip-side it doesn't matter how fun and easy your build or setup is if you can contribute enough.

Tannus15

JMadFour wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY FUN ON A SPREADSHEET

But you can quantify fun on an inanimate target dummy.

I'm not disagreeing with you in any way. I just find the "spreadsheet" complaint, specifically, to be hilarious, considering how this community bases basically everything on a parse number.

I'm not going to lie, this attitude is starting to get to me.

the reason we can quantify "fun" on a target dummy is that we've done it so much that doing a parse will tell us how sustain, rotation and damage will feel and we know from experience how that will relate to the real content that we do every week.

we can extrapolate from a dummy parse how real content will feel because we've been doing this for years

I've been progging vRG HM for over 6 months. I know the oax fight inside and out, i know it's rhythms and timings, i know how much dps to expect in real terms and what that looks like in dummy terms. i know how tight resources are, i know how easily i die if the healer is down or there are too many frogs.
I'm not joking when I say I can do a dummy parse and go "oh, this is going to be a problem for me" or "oh, i really like this set up".

if i see a drop of 25% dps then i'm like "oh, this is going to be a problem during execute when we can't cleanse anymore and we just need to burn"
if i see my aoe skills drop then i'm aware we might have problems with frog control and i'm thinking maybe we need to dedicate someone to cleaning those up.
if my sustain is in the toilet then i know that build isn't going to work and i need to swap some morphs or skills to make it work.

this is why i've said when trials groups and dungeon groups were coming into PTS 1-3 to "test" content we were not going in for ourselves. we already knew what the content was going to be like. We were not surprised or shocked to find it a disaster.

We did the PTS content to prove to ZoS the problem we already knew from a dummy parse

and we know the issues with PTS4.

we know medium weaving is going to be an issue, we know healing is still going to be an issue and we know that there will be dps issues in specific content like vSS HM portals.
this is all known.

we're waiting for week5 adjustments instead of testing more stuff because there is no point until they adjust the boss health.

Rimskjegg

Lalothen wrote: »

Based on my previous posts I decided to test all the weapon types on the PTS. These tests were done on the Target Centurion, Lambent, which is classified as a "normal trial dummy". I had all weapon skill line passives, had not allocated any stat points, and only utilised basic CP160 weapons, along with wearing 7 pieces of basic CP160 light armor with the penetration passive, giving a total of 10,977 penetration. I procced Empower using Empowering Grasp.

I then added Sergeant's Mail (+2580) & Noble Duelist (+2110) buffs (just on paper) to give some idea of what they can scale up to with PTS Empower.

I then recalculated what the hits would look like if Empower were changed to buff the final hit only by 160% (down from my earlier 240% suggestion), and added my thoughts on how to alter damage in some instances to provide more parity.

Restoration staff:

No skill line passives increase Restoration staff damage.

Unempowered: 390 tic x 2 then 2,346 final hit = 3,126 total
PTS Empower: 703 tic x 2 then 4,223 final hit = 5,629 total
My Empower suggestion: 390 tic x 2 then 6,100 final hit = 6,880 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,080 tic x 2 then 7,036 final hit = 17,136 total
PTS Empower: 9,144 x 2 then 12,665 final hit = 30,953 total
My Empower suggestion: 5,080 tic x 2 then 18,294 final hit = 28,454 total

Thoughts: reduce the final hit damage by 50%. Coupled with my Empower suggestion, this would give:
5,080 tic x 2 then 15,244 final hit = 25,404 total

Lightning staff:

With skill line passives - PM 10% resist ignored:

Unempowered: 651 tic x 2 then 1957 final hit = 3,259 total
PTS Empower: 1,173 tic x 2 then 3,522 final hit = 5,868 total
My Empower suggestion: 651 tic x 2 then 5088 final hit = 6,390 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,341 tic x 2 then 6,647 final hit = 17,329 total
PTS Empower: 9,614 tic x 2 then 11,965 final hit = 31,193 total
My Empower suggestion: 5,341 tic x 2 then 17,282 final hit = 27,964 total

Thoughts: Leave this as it is.

Inferno staff:

With skill line passives - T-foc +12% fully-charged HA, PM 10% resist ignored, AK +10% ST dmg

Unempowered: 2,595 final hit
PTS Empower: 4,671 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 6,747 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 7,285 final hit
PTS Empower: 13,113 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 18,941 final hit final hit

Thoughts: Leave this as it is since there's only a single hit occurring, so HA-buffing sets are only adding damage to 1 hit instead of 2 or 3.

Ice staff:

With skill line passives - PM 10% resist ignored

Unempowered: 2,127 final hit
PTS Empower: 3,829 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 5,530 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 6,817 final hit
PTS Empower: 12,271 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 17,724 final hit

Thoughts: Again leave this as it is - same reasoning as for Inferno.

Bow:

With skill line passives - L-shots +12% dmg, H-Eye +25% dmg

Unempowered: 3,674 final hit
PTS Empower: 6,613 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 9,552 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 8,364 final hit
PTS Empower: 15,055 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 21,746 final hit

Thoughts: leave this as it is, since it requires optimum distance & 5 stacks of Hawk Eye.

1H/SH:

With skill line passives - S+B +5% wp/sp

Unempowered: 1,966 final hit
PTS Empower: 3,539 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 5,112 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 6,656 final hit
PTS Empower: 11,981 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 17,306 final hit

Thoughts: Leave this as it is since it's fairly similar to Ice staff damage.

DW:

With skill line passives - DW Exp +6% off-hand wp/sp, TB&B +284 wp/sp for sword x2

Unempowered: 793 x 2 final hit = 1486 total
PTS Empower: 1427 x 2 final hit = 2854 total
My Empower Suggestion: 2,062 x 2 final hit = 4,124 total

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 5,483 x 2 final hit = 10,966 total
PTS Empower: 9869 x 2 final hit = 19,738 total
My Empower suggestion: 14,256 x 2 final hit = 28,512 total

Thoughts: Alter fully-charged DW so that only 1 hit is counted as the fully-charged heavy attack instead of both, then increase the damage of that final hit by 100%. This would lead to (with sergeant & noble buffs):

Unempowered: 5483 tic + 6,276 final hit = 11,759 total
PTS Empower: 9,869 tic + 11,297 final hit = 21,166 total
My Empower suggestion: 5,483 + 16,318 final hit = 21,801 total

2H:

With skill line passives - H-weaps +284 wp/sp for Greatsword

Unempowered: 2,341 final hit
PTS Empower: 4,214 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 6,087 final hit

With Sergeant's Mail & Noble Duelist:

Unempowered: 7,013 final hit
PTS Empower: 12,623 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 18,234 final hit

Thoughts: Increase the fully-charged 2H HA by approximately 15%, to yield (with sergeant and noble buffs):

Unempowered: 7,382 final hit
PTS Empower: 13,288 final hit
My Empower suggestion: 19,193 final hit

I think the only potentially tricky change could be the dual wield one (or not, I dunno how it's coded), but that would be necessary to avoid DW overperforming everything else (and we don't need DW to be meta for HA builds as well). Otherwise, with tweaks to things like Resto I'd say an Empower that buffs fully-charged heavies by 160% would yield the sort of HA love you're looking to provide - and decrease the disparity between channeled heavies and one-hit heavies fairly significantly - and avoid the MA meta that will be very unpopular if it goes Live.

Really interesting results! Based on those numbers I think Dual Wield would look fine, honestly. So what if it hits a little more than Lightning Staff when it's single target and melee? Melee should be higher risk higher reward, but more importantly, Shock staff would be much stronger the minute you pulled in a single add as it would take the full brunt of the heavy attack. No need to mess with the basic coding of DW heavy attack, just tone down Resto staff heavies and change the Empower buff. Nice testing! (Edit:typo)

Oshea_OK

Ok. Average player did some more testing on this week's patch.
Templar Magic
Lighting Staff on all tests.
Hexo Ward and Order's Wrath (one piece Ice heart, or 2 for 2 bar & Maelstrom staff)
I use a shield enchant for the weapon and at least one ring for sustain, because I mainly do solo stuff and need the extra support.
(Puncturing sweep, Blazing spear, Unstable Wall, __heal__Solar Barrage and shooting star)


Oakensoul:
40,300 K (PTS)

With 2 Bar setup:
45,600 (PTS)

*Observations: on the previous weeks I was losing 5-10k on Oakensoul. Now I am losing 4-6K.
Oakensoul has improved. Thank you. I will likely at point still consider using it. But the dps lose is still a few thousand short, to make it truly easier to solo things like Veteran Arenas.
*Suggesting: If this ring is to raise the floor enough for average and below players to use it on things like Veteran Arena content and make is more attenable, I would consider adding ONE of the three major buffs back, "Berserk, Force or Heroism." I believe this would be enough dsp to reach that goal. In my testing, it is buffs that raise the floor the most for someone like me. I know some buff are for trails, but that equals to average or below not having that floor raised if that is the decision. I am not for or against this, I do not fully know your goals. It would be nice to get Major force in all classes, or in a skill from something like the mages guild. (etc) Maybe make it apply if you use 3 or 4 class skills on each bar?

*Additionally, Unstable Wall, is too weak in my testing. Whether you plan for this or not, Most content creators will often suggest the lightning staff and Unstable Wall, to new and struggling players, because of the ease of use. This dps loss hurts this target audience the most.

Thank you for increasing Heavy Attacks.
Here are my test results from the same basic Templar setup. (all PTS)
Weaving between spammable and heavy attacks between dots.

Oakensoul
Sergeant Mail and Ordres' Wrath = 42,000
Sergeant Mail and Hexo = 38,000

Sergeant and Torug Pact (Health weapon enchant) =42,000
Sergeant and Torug Pact (shock weapon enchant) --44,000

*Observations: I was getting between 22-27k dps on only heavy attacks. I do not know if this is a glitch, but the shock weapon enchant was giving me 5k more dps than using a Damage enchant?
*Suggestions: Not much. If the goal was to raise the floor with heavy attacks for struggling players, this works well. I am average player, and I got 39-44k dps on a heavy attack build on Armor sets one can buy or craft. This makes doing Vet Arenas doable. It is not 100k, but its enough to solo harder content. ( I heard of high resto staff heavy attack scores, but I only tested with lightning staff since this is the staff suggested by content creators for struggling players to us, for ease of use.)

I hope the Developers find this helpful.

FrankonPC

With respect to the Mara's balm set for pvp, a few thoughts and observations after testing this set:

1. This set not only applies to effects ending via cooldown or purge, but also people recasting. If you reapply poison inject, 1k heal. If you reapply embers before the effects end, you get 2k( 1 for the dot, 1 for burning status.
2. You also heal every time you cc break or remove a snare, so it's not just for purges.
3. Every 15 seconds severely outnumbered you get a crimson in its prime like heal. I've had multiple outnumbered situations where status effects were running off my bar. That means an over 10k+ heal every 15 seconds on top of these other heals.


Just imagine charged force pulse builds stacking status effects. That's an up to 4k heal every time effects end or are reapplied. Extremely powerful set and kind of slept on because nocturnals is so much more problematic.

I will try to get more outnumbered testing on the pts but as it stands right now, it's just tough to test this kind of set in the pts environment. After testing it with a friend I came away with the conclusion that this set is the combination of hist sap + original crimson in the same set. The fact that it applies on reactivation of dots/status effects etc means that a charged force pulse build for example could heal for up to 4k per weave. my buddy's burning embers were healing me for 2k per reapplication.

Lalothen

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Really interesting results! Based on those numbers I think Dual Wield would look fine, honestly. So what if it hits a little more than Lightning Staff when it's single target and melee? Melee should be higher risk higher reward, but more importantly, Shock staff would be much stronger the minute you pulled in a single add as it would take the full brunt of the heavy attack. No need to mess with the basic coding of DW heavy attack, just tone down Resto staff heavies and change the Empower buff. Nice testing! (Edit:typo)

I was somewhat surprised by just how much of the resto HA is concentrated into that final burst. Clearly my sources were outdated in my original attempt to do some quick calculations - highlighting the importance of testing lol.

The problem for me with DW being the most powerful is that it's already the go-to for both mag & stam LA builds. That said though you're right that in any scenario with adds or more than one boss then lightning staff is going to perform better. So yeah - in fact I'll edit the above post! Thanks for that.

Enundr

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Do not release the combat changes, for now give us dungeons only.

It has to be said loud and clear: combat changes in U35 are disastrous and drastic changes that have been made each week on the PTS are rushed and not thought out well. They prove you missed the point with your initial vision and no 'adjustment' will change that. They have been made ad hoc only to minimize all the damage caused to combat system and to extinguish all the fire, but overall it still does not work. Example: Empower changes that make sets (like Galenwe) and abilities (like Ambush, Solar Barrage) obsolete, awkward and useless. At this point you clearly have not enough time to release thoroughly thought out and tested changes to core combat without harming your playbase.

How did we come to the point where we don't want the new DLC which we should be hyped for because all the things attached to it kill the excitement and anticipation completely.

this , 1000%