PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Vahndamme

Do we have to reply to these questions for real? Like it's been pretty obvious no? I get it that a company needs to throw into some form and present it to the higher echelon but if you see the response from the playerbase/community it's a big fat no. Just no, back to drawing board and come back when you talked to people who actually played the game and make content for it. They can definitely help you with your vision, they know what stuff to tweak to get what you guys have as a vision. Because you guys have the vision but the execution is totally off.

Tick tock, it's not too late to take back this patch. Like look at Riot, they just reverted a big teleport change. Cuz well, no bueno. Taking back a thing or reverting a change isn't a bad thing, it's actually a good thing, owing up that you might have made a mistake or not left it in the oven long enough.

virtus753

I’m glad Sorcs and Wardens got heard, as well as the pain point regarding ground-based DoTs and HoTs, but if those are the only things adjusted next week, the majority of player feedback will have gone unacknowledged and unaddressed.

Your statement of your preference for data over anecdotes largely aligns with that because it sends the unfortunate message that you don’t value players’ actual experience as much as whether the numbers we produce match spreadsheet standards. If that isn’t the message you wish to send, I hope you take the opportunity to reconsider how you value our feedback and how you relate that information to us. Your players aren’t numbers. We’re not cells. We’re people. For the majority of players, experience matters at least as much as numbers, in some cases much more so. Personally it’s disheartening to hear the combat design team seems to feel the opposite.

-How will returning ground HoTs and DoTs to 1s ticks at reduced damage alone help us continue to clear our current content so long as you stick to the 25%+ damage nerfs? You’ve made content significantly less accessible at all levels, which is exactly the opposite of your stated goal, and the adjustments announced today do not begin to return hope of doing that content to the majority of people who are going to lose it.

-On a more personal note, I’m glad Sorcs and Wardens were heard, or at least their parses were, but what about other classes? Are you looking at a 117k magplar parse that’s impossible to replicate on a stamplar and say you are therefore not concerned about templar damage or class identity? To say there is only templar because you no longer think of characters as mag based or stam based is disingenuous. There is still a very real divide because some skills and morphs are funded one way and some the other, and we can’t split stats while remaining effective because the game only considers the highest of the two and not their sum. The plurality of magplar’s highest parse right now on PTS is Radiant Oppression, a skill a stamina-based character cannot sustain without switching to a full investment in magicka to remain optimized. Even if we could, we have never had a class execute. It’s part of what sets us apart. It’s one of the reasons infused outdamages bloodthirsty on stamplar, contrary to every other class. And even on magplar, the class-defining spammable is not worth using over Flurry (as your data should show). If I’m doing the vast majority of my damage on a stamplar with anything but class skills or class-oriented sets, what am I? It feels like I’m playing stamtoon TK421. That’s an anecdote you won’t see in your spreadsheets, but if you dismiss that feeling from your players, you sacrifice our experience for your standards. That’s not a standard I enjoy or see myself continuing to play by, even if I can continue to do six figures on a target dummy.

A few years ago, in the midst of the PTS that introduced the Flurry meta, you chose to answer my question in a Q&A that no, you do not want a class-agnostic meta. But that’s what you gave us then and that’s what’s still going to happen now with Update 35 if you don’t review all classes to ensure that a significant part of their power - including their perceived power - is coming from class-specific sources, including spammables like Jabs and class passives like Burning Light. That’s going to involve reading our anecdotes alongside our parses.

YandereGirlfriend

"Warden improvements in Week 3 and beyond had better feature a reversion of the Deep Fissure timing changes." - basically any MagDen that still plays the game.

DeathStalker

This response by ZOS gives me 2 big questions.
1. How does lowering dps making fights longer and harder increase accessibility?
2. Will NPC monsters be using the same lowered damage scale?

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"Warden improvements in Week 3 and beyond had better feature a reversion of the Deep Fissure timing changes." - basically any MagDen that still plays the game.

and ffs a reversion to advanced species as well as a dps buff to arctic blast to make it legit viable.

MacRibs

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"Warden improvements in Week 3 and beyond had better feature a reversion of the Deep Fissure timing changes." - basically any MagDen that still plays the game.

and ffs a reversion to advanced species as well as a dps buff to arctic blast to make it legit viable.

Since we are reversing, reverse Winter's Revenge damage nerf also.

YandereGirlfriend

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

Necrotech_Master

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

as far as im aware all status effects deal some kind of dmg, but all of the ones you mentioned only deal one single very small burst (i can definitely confirm i have killed players in cyrodiil with a "sundered" status effect as well as being killed by some of those lol)

burning, poison, hemorrhaging, diseased i think all do dmg over time, some weaker and stronger along with the debuff

chilled, concussed, overcharged, sundered do a very small "burst" of dmg at the start of the status, but outside of that does not do any dot, just the debuff (in cyrodiil my sundered status effect only hits players for like 325-365 dmg, double that for pve and your seeing 1000 dmg maybe for those, but again its only a single burst)

burning is mostly OP for wall of elements, where burning enemies take 20% more dmg from the wall of elements, and charged trait was more OP for stuff like DK combustion passive before they nerfed the rate you could trigger that

YandereGirlfriend

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

as far as im aware all status effects deal some kind of dmg, but all of the ones you mentioned only deal one single very small burst (i can definitely confirm i have killed players in cyrodiil with a "sundered" status effect as well as being killed by some of those lol)

burning, poison, hemorrhaging, diseased i think all do dmg over time, some weaker and stronger along with the debuff

chilled, concussed, overcharged, sundered do a very small "burst" of dmg at the start of the status, but outside of that does not do any dot, just the debuff (in cyrodiil my sundered status effect only hits players for like 325-365 dmg, double that for pve and your seeing 1000 dmg maybe for those, but again its only a single burst)

burning is mostly OP for wall of elements, where burning enemies take 20% more dmg from the wall of elements, and charged trait was more OP for stuff like DK combustion passive before they nerfed the rate you could trigger that

Right, they do - but the value is so small that is doesn't matter for balancing purposes. Nobody's parse is being juiced due to all of the Diseased micro-damage, etc.

Point being that, if they want to reign in DPS, they should target only those Status Effects that actually contribute to it - Poisoned, Burning, and Hemorrhaging.

Necrotech_Master

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

as far as im aware all status effects deal some kind of dmg, but all of the ones you mentioned only deal one single very small burst (i can definitely confirm i have killed players in cyrodiil with a "sundered" status effect as well as being killed by some of those lol)

burning, poison, hemorrhaging, diseased i think all do dmg over time, some weaker and stronger along with the debuff

chilled, concussed, overcharged, sundered do a very small "burst" of dmg at the start of the status, but outside of that does not do any dot, just the debuff (in cyrodiil my sundered status effect only hits players for like 325-365 dmg, double that for pve and your seeing 1000 dmg maybe for those, but again its only a single burst)

burning is mostly OP for wall of elements, where burning enemies take 20% more dmg from the wall of elements, and charged trait was more OP for stuff like DK combustion passive before they nerfed the rate you could trigger that

Right, they do - but the value is so small that is doesn't matter for balancing purposes. Nobody's parse is being juiced due to all of the Diseased micro-damage, etc.

Point being that, if they want to reign in DPS, they should target only those Status Effects that actually contribute to it - Poisoned, Burning, and Hemorrhaging.

out of all those i think burning is the biggest outlier

its the highest dmg status effect, along with boosting wall of elements dmg if your using a fire staff, which is overall a significant dps increase

hemorrhaging is probably only significant if the enemy can get the minor mangle debuff, as cutting off 10% of the max hp of the target can be quite a lot, but the dmg is quite a bit lower than burning

YandereGirlfriend

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

as far as im aware all status effects deal some kind of dmg, but all of the ones you mentioned only deal one single very small burst (i can definitely confirm i have killed players in cyrodiil with a "sundered" status effect as well as being killed by some of those lol)

burning, poison, hemorrhaging, diseased i think all do dmg over time, some weaker and stronger along with the debuff

chilled, concussed, overcharged, sundered do a very small "burst" of dmg at the start of the status, but outside of that does not do any dot, just the debuff (in cyrodiil my sundered status effect only hits players for like 325-365 dmg, double that for pve and your seeing 1000 dmg maybe for those, but again its only a single burst)

burning is mostly OP for wall of elements, where burning enemies take 20% more dmg from the wall of elements, and charged trait was more OP for stuff like DK combustion passive before they nerfed the rate you could trigger that

Right, they do - but the value is so small that is doesn't matter for balancing purposes. Nobody's parse is being juiced due to all of the Diseased micro-damage, etc.

Point being that, if they want to reign in DPS, they should target only those Status Effects that actually contribute to it - Poisoned, Burning, and Hemorrhaging.

out of all those i think burning is the biggest outlier

its the highest dmg status effect, along with boosting wall of elements dmg if your using a fire staff, which is overall a significant dps increase

hemorrhaging is probably only significant if the enemy can get the minor mangle debuff, as cutting off 10% of the max hp of the target can be quite a lot, but the dmg is quite a bit lower than burning

I agree with you about Burning.

The best solution to Status Effect damage in PvE would definitely be to nerf the Burning DoT rather than to touch the Charged trait itself.

OrkWizard

Please, just scrap this idea . I don't know a single person I play with that likes these changes, specifically the changes to healing and skill durations. End game is going to a barren wasteland if anything resembling the current pts goes live. The vast majority of my friends and myself included have no interest in the game anymore if these changes are implemented as is.

It's so bizzare to completely change how the game plays and dilute everything that makes the combat fun and interesting. Eso is as succesful as it is in large part because the combat is fun and different to other MMO's in my opinion, it's very accessable while having a fairly high ceiling that always makes you strive to improve and keep coming back for more.

Eso with bad/boring combat, why would anyone bother? There are better games to play that maybe don't have as good combat as live eso but certainly much better than what is on pts right now.

James-Wayne

TPishek wrote: »

People have been asking for .8 jabs for years. Jabs changes are bliss, the only good change of the update.

Faster Jabs is good but reducing the damage is not.

Dayhjawk

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Dayhjawk wrote: »

Devs, could we possibly, please, get taunt viewable by everyone? 1 debuff that everyone can see. It would be a huge QoL, specially for newer players, if they are able to see that taunt is on a target. It would be a bigger QoL in situations with 2+ tanks being able to see a mob has been taunted, if we could see the taunt icon/debuff on a target that is from another player.

@Dayhjawk That is an option. To view debuffs from other players

yes I am aware of that. but taunt gets grouped up with all the other debuffs and in a 12 man there way too many debuffs to be able, as a tank, glance and see it's been taunted by another player. Serperating it, or being able to remove the other debuffs, so as a tank, I can see the other tank's Taunt would be a HUGE QoL for tanking.

Lalothen

Here's a simple overview of the problem when it comes to HA builds vs LA + Spammable ones:



The above were quick tests on the PTS, both times utilising the following setup on a Dunmer MagSorc:



The only item that changed between the HA and the LA+spammable tests was the staff, switching the lightning staff for an inferno staff. I realise this setup is sub-optimal for an LA+spammable test, but I didn't want to introduce different gear sets or slotted CP as variables (variables which, I might add, only further exacerbate the DPS discrepancy between HA & LA builds).

Obviously Scalding was switched with Force Pulse between the HA & LA tests as well.

Now let's take the DPS numbers from the above:

HA test 1:
Heavy Attack (Lightning)* - 6916
Heavy Attack (Lightning) - 5048
Scalding Rune - 7230
Scalding Rune* - 1328
Total: 20522


HA test 2:
Heavy Attack (Lightning)* - 6248
Heavy Attack (Lightning) - 4754
Scalding Rune - 6388
Scalding Rune* - 1331 (this got cut off in the collage pic, but I checked the original SS and that was the DPS)
Total: 18721

Average between the two tests: 19621

LA test 1:
Light Attack (Inferno) - 9077
Force Pulse - 6634
Force Pulse - 5602
Force Pulse - 5102
Total: 26385

LA test 2:
Light Attack (Inferno) - 9940
Force Pulse - 6812
Force Pulse - 6737
Force Pulse - 5372
Total: 28861

Average between the two tests: 27623

Discrepancy between the two averages: 8002

Essentially, on the PTS weaving Skill>LA>Skill constitutes a 40.7% increase in DPS over weaving Skill>HA>Skill - and that's with that HA being buffed by Empower for an additional 1800dmg, and the 5% shock dmg passive that sorcs have.

If you add onto this the fact that HA-themed builds are sacrificing at least one 5-piece set to buff their HAs, AND that they're likely sacrificing a more powerful spammable for one that procs Empower, then not only are they losing out significantly to LA builds when it comes to the ostensible "meat'n'potatoes" of their build's damage output, they're losing additional DPS from their other skills being weakened, or losing access to a powerful DoT like Relequen.

If you guys "want better" for HA build users, then you actually need to address the glaring discrepancy above. That starts by giving the lightning staff back its lost tic - but it far from ends there. Personally, I would accept a 10-15% discrepancy between LA>Spammable & HA>Spammable weaving, as when you account for the other sacrifices to dps inherent in spending at least one 5-piece bonus purely on buffing basic attacks, then you're ending up with around a 15-20% net DPS loss for using an HA-themed build over a standard meta LA build. That's still significant, but it keeps HA builds VIABLE and falls in line with your statement about wanting better for HA build lovers.

I'll keep testing and happily provide much more comprehensive data highlighting the significant ongoing shortfall when it comes to LA vs. HA builds, but the above provides a simple yet relevant snapshot of the core of the issue.

Oshea_OK

I have already posted my testing on the PTS as an average player, with the data and suggestions. And they still stand.

I recently saw Hack the Minotaur's suggestion for Oakensoul, and I want say that I like his suggestions to help this.

If the main reason is to help average and below, to make pve content easeir, then the ring needs to be designed for this as the # 1 goal. If it is overkill for pvp, then it needs to stay the same but act differently in pvp, in order to satisfy its original goal.

Developers please consider those suggestions, as an average players, his suggestions would both benefit me and help with the Pvp issue. Thanks

https://youtu.be/4obvOIoy-AY

-Oshea

renne

seventyfive wrote: »

Dragonknight:
The hybridization of the molten whip cost probably won't make it appealing to stamina builds since the amount of magicka that the stamina dk needs already exceeds its magicka capabilities even when using a pure stamina spammable. I agree with the reduction of the maximum burst-damage but I feel like it's now too hard to stack in comparison to the lower reward for doing so. Right now the ability feels a bit awkward in regards to its purpose. Who is going to slot it and for what purpose?

It's not at all appealing for a magDK either considering all it does is leave you with no stam at all for important mechanics things like blocking, dodging, breaking free, etc.

I don't see how it's meant to be good for anyone but the people who level like it's Skyrim and split their attributes.

CleymenZero

The proposed changes coming up next week don't look promising. They still nerf damage which, for mid/high-tier groups bars them from trifecta achievements. I got 2-3 groups who's fates hinge on the future decisions.

You thank us for providing valuable data but don't you have a system that allows you to reasonably estimate the consequences of your changes. The feedback we provided showing the magnitude of how those changes miss the mark assuredly casts doubts on the robustness of your model.

You've been criticized multiple times for having a tendancy for "spreadsheet balancing" and it somewhat looks like that.

You're making dots last twice as long, calculating that we will be able to perfectly fill that extra time with spammables which is flawed. Decent players weave at a rate of about 0.7 to 0.9 abilities per second. If you give us 10 seconds extra on a dot, don't assume in your model that we'll fill that time with 10 spammables and balance the dot damage around that, that's completely flawed and penalizes less skilled players than it does better skilled players. You're enlarging the skill gap further which is the complete opposite of your stated goals.

I seriously hope a dev reads this and realizes how careless they are.

The numbers are out there, taking into account the buffs to the dummy, which I believe is unrealistic in the case of Major Slayer, there is a 20-30% damage drop, fsr greater than your expected 6-10% damage loss overall and I don't see the proposed changes correcting that in the slightest.

blktauna

Casdha wrote: »

I don't use rotations, for me the front bar is melee (2H) and the back bar is ranged (bow) the only reason I swap bars at all on this fight is for the extra weapons buff I tried to hit as she ran back towards me and lasts most of the time until I had to move again and the psijic recharge skill I used as I waited. The weapons buff on the front bar has a heal on it when it ends so I have to let it end to get the max heal but getting it restarted when I want was the problem I was running into. I was hitting the key but it was so close to the key I hit before it it would not register as if I hit it when I wanted it to.

Edit; the buff on the back bar works on all weapons, the one on the front only works with 2H

Another example would be the frost troll in Maelstrom that needs a ranged interrupt to keep it from destroying an island I would have to switch to back bar for that. As I have a ranged bow skill slotted with interrupt for that.

TLDR; I have more fun learning and playing with the mechanics of the game vs trying to burn something down.

LOL are you me??? I do exactly the same. Switching slows me and since I pvp most of the time, it fails to switch more often than not so I've adjusted to close and long. That too close key 'feature' annoys the crap out of me.

The thing that sets you apart on these changes is your experience. I've watched experienced players walk into dungeons on very low level toons and clean up. Not experienced players with the same setup will wipe.

These changes claim to be an aid for the not experienced. I don't see where that is happening.

Casdha

blktauna wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I don't use rotations, for me the front bar is melee (2H) and the back bar is ranged (bow) the only reason I swap bars at all on this fight is for the extra weapons buff I tried to hit as she ran back towards me and lasts most of the time until I had to move again and the psijic recharge skill I used as I waited. The weapons buff on the front bar has a heal on it when it ends so I have to let it end to get the max heal but getting it restarted when I want was the problem I was running into. I was hitting the key but it was so close to the key I hit before it it would not register as if I hit it when I wanted it to.

Edit; the buff on the back bar works on all weapons, the one on the front only works with 2H

Another example would be the frost troll in Maelstrom that needs a ranged interrupt to keep it from destroying an island I would have to switch to back bar for that. As I have a ranged bow skill slotted with interrupt for that.

TLDR; I have more fun learning and playing with the mechanics of the game vs trying to burn something down.

LOL are you me??? I do exactly the same. Switching slows me and since I pvp most of the time, it fails to switch more often than not so I've adjusted to close and long. That too close key 'feature' annoys the crap out of me.

The thing that sets you apart on these changes is your experience. I've watched experienced players walk into dungeons on very low level toons and clean up. Not experienced players with the same setup will wipe.

These changes claim to be an aid for the not experienced. I don't see where that is happening.

LoL, no offense but I don't think this place could stand two of me, but it is cool that I'm not 100% alone in how I approach things even if it is just little things here and there.

As far as the changes go, I wouldn't be to concerned, at least until it hits the last week on PTS. This thing has been known to test the limits and you can't set a range without first knowing the limits.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Keeping the reversing trend going: can we please NOT nerf the Charged trait?

If it outperforms Precise in PvE then perhaps the issue actually lies in the strength of the DoT Status Effects such as Burning, Hemorrhaging, and Poisoned?

After all, there are plenty of Status Effects that deal no damage (e.g. Chilled, Sundered, Concussed, Overcharged, etc.) and nobody was complaining about them.

So let's treat the actual disease rather than the random symptom - adjust the Status Effect DoTs and leave Charged alone.

Charged did need a nerf. It was outperforming way too much in pvp and pve

Tannus15

@Lalothen the sad fact is that lightning staffs are terrible and shouldn't be used. the 10% aoe vs 10% single target are not equivalent, far more of your dps is single target even when you're attempting to build for AOE damage.

I really don't know why the sorc has a lightning damage increase when they also have the worst aoe of all the classes. it's encouraging players to use something that their class can't take advantage of and misleading to players who don't really crunch the numbers.

Shock damage and "lightning sorcs" are a meme that people should avoid if they want good dps.

If you want an example, look at unstable wall. Burning is the most desirable status effect in the game and it adds 20% more damage to your wall damage.

Lighting wall does less damage, adds concussive which does a small amount of damage and gives minor vulnerability, a debuff that doesn't stack with other sources, and puts the target off balance, another global debuff on a timer. Unless they make lighting staffs able to compete with inferno then at best it's a buff build only for off balance.
To add insult to injury BOTH of these debuffs can be managed better by a warden using dive and fetcher flies.

It's similar to ice staff with brittle, except there are dozens of better ways for a group to get minor vulnerability and off balance doesn't assist the group nearly as much as 10% crit damage.

Rimskjegg

@Tannus15 Shock staves HAVE to be used, at least on the front bar, in heavy attack builds, which is what Lalothen's insightful post and test was about. They won't do as good DPS as light attack builds, but are an accessibility option for players who can't light attack weave. And the Combat Preview specifically said the devs "wanted better' for heavy attack builds. Such builds always had to use lightning staff heavy attacks because inferno heavy attacks only tick at the end of the attack, whereas lightning heavies tick throughout the course of the heavy attack. Hence they get the set bonuses, in this case Relequen and Undaunted Infiltrator, once per tick instead of once per heavy attack. The heavy attack damage ticks also hit all enemies instead of just one - that's where the AoE power comes from. The Sorc extra shock damage passive here does mean Sorcs get an extra benefit. The week1 U35 PTS nerfed heavy attacks and removed one of those ticks, however, which is an outright broken promise if it reaches live. I really really hope they'll fix this in today's update. I haven't tested exactly what they did to Daedric Mines, which was another staple of such builds, but the patch notes make me concerned about this as well.

Ajintse

I'll see if I need a break or not. Changes are always risky but perhaps its for the better. Or worse.

JustAGoodPlayer

When some one say about HA players - that like they can not it is funny for me - i think a lot of HA players a the best players in the game. They will not - yes may be / do not like.

Can not - lol - only LA players for now can not understand that thing they proud so much is some thing no one want to use.

Why not you do HA - you cannot ?

I thin with such logick yes - you can not.

HA players is exp players not a woody woodpeckers.

We respect ourself enough to not making our game in no thinking LA spam.

Eirikirs

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

When some one say about HA players - that like they can not it is funny for me - i think a lot of HA players a the best players in the game. They will not - yes may be / do not like.

Can not - lol - only LA players for now can not understand that thing they proud so much is some thing no one want to use.

Why not you do HA - you cannot ?

I thin with such logick yes - you can not.

HA players is exp players not a woody woodpeckers.

We respect ourself enough to not making our game in no thinking LA spam.

Not trying to bash you mate, but perhaps you wanna consider editing your post since not much make any sense. You seem to have something to contribute towards the discussions, but it's difficult to decipher in current state.

JustAGoodPlayer

Eirikirs wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

When some one say about HA players - that like they can not it is funny for me - i think a lot of HA players a the best players in the game. They will not - yes may be / do not like.

Can not - lol - only LA players for now can not understand that thing they proud so much is some thing no one want to use.

Why not you do HA - you cannot ?

I thin with such logick yes - you can not.

HA players is exp players not a woody woodpeckers.

We respect ourself enough to not making our game in no thinking LA spam.

Not trying to bash you mate, but perhaps you wanna consider editing your post since not much make any sense. You seem to have something to contribute towards the discussions, but it's difficult to decipher in current state.

If HA is so much nerfed that it is already hard to use - it only shows that it is nerfed to much already.

lPeacekeeperl

"nice" 8.1.2 changes.

seems like this thread as pointless as any other communication chanel.

Sandman929

Sometimes stupidity can only be laughed at...Nocturnals Ploy is such an event.

Cominfordatoothbrush

For ground abilities that had their durations reversed, was the damage also? For the few that have a %damage/tick change, is that relative to live or last pts week?