PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

kojou

I don't like the standardization of DoTs, HoTs, and Buffs. I haven't read every post so I apologize if I say something that has already been said, but this change alone ruins the game for me.

In my humble opinion you should consider standardization around short, medium, and long duration skills and give the classes flavor based on how many of each they have access to. This just feels like every class is going to have roughly the same rotation... Apply 9 DoTs, whack your spammable ability 11 times, apply 9 DoTs, repeat. Hit ultimate when it is up.

There has to be some dynamics in the rotation to make it fun.

I'm not even going to gripe about the light attack changes, but I don't really care for them either.

Casdha

taken and edited from another post I made Here.

I did a quick run through Fungal Grotto 1 and it was about what I expected which is not much difference at all. I would hit 80k+ on the trash crab adds in the middle and the end. I tend to stay around 12k per target (for some reason I was thinking Brawler maxed on 6 targets but it must be a couple more). I still got around 90% of health on shields for max targets as well so no change for me.

What does this mean? These changes do not affect players like me in any noticeable way.

(I took a pic with the event reward to prove that I was on PTS)

edit: side note - this is the first time I've ever taken a companion in on one of these and them not die once (I admit I haven't tried in a while) so it makes me wonder if ZOS has done some tweaking to companions as well.

virtus753

Oshea_OK wrote: »

Doing some more testing on the servers today. I realized the game reset my Champion points, and wanted to retest for better results.
This is still my DPS Mag Templar Build. I have never done a trail. I am parseing it as I would use it for my own solo game play, and not purely dps, which is not how I would use it. Example, I am using a Harding glyph for the staff and usually one or two jewelry glyphs are for recovery, instead of all 3 for damage. On my two bar set up I using a maelstrome back bar with a damage gyph. I also using one heavy attack in rotation, because I usually run out of resources in normal game play. I also use lightning staff, because it is easier to use.


PST
2Bar = 44K
Oakensoul = 40k

Current Game
2Bar = 46
Oakesoul = 50

Interestingly, I am now able to do more damage with a 2 bare set up in the PTS than with Oaksenoul. The reason for this is the easier rotation; the longer buffs are easier to use, and it help me perfect my rotation and light weaving more. The second thing is that the Major Force and Heroism are adding alot of dps to help an average player like me. Without major buffs, it might help better players, but not someone like me. But it was meant for average players and below.

On the current game to PTS I am still losing on average 10-12k dps on oakensoul, and this is true when I was only parsing on average 30k dps or now 45k dps.

This should give a good base line (10-12k dps) for how much those major buffs of Force and Heroism adds to average and below players in dps, because these as far as I can tell are the major contributors to the dps lose on the PTS with oakensoul.

For players only doing 25k (world bosses are hard at this level) to then be able to do 37k dps, is game changing! This really helps. This really helps!

Suggestions: (1) if Oakensoul is meant for average players and below, then and extra 10k dps needs to be added back to it, so that it helps the audience it was meant for.
(2). The longer rotations are helpful, especially after testing for a while. But the same suggestions are still in play. More dps needs to be added for AOE dots, since newer players use these. And dots need to tik every second or .5 seconds, particularly for heals. And 15 seconds dots my be a better comprise.
(4). As an average player, I still use a few jewelry glyphs for recovery because I still run out of resources. And so I end up using some heavy attacks' with my lighting staff. The content creators I watch suggest such things for newer or average players, and I find this advice helpful. The point is that this demographic uses heavy attacks more often than end gamers. Thus, to help this group out, heavy attacks need more dps.
(3) I agree with Skinny Cheeks video. Buffs and de-buffs seem to be what are separating me from the higher dsp of end game players. Thus, if the goal is to raise the floor for the newer and average players, then such buffs need to be given them. They need to be more accessible. If Oakensoul is meant for this group, then those buffs need to stay (the ring as it is with M. Force is doing exactly what it was meant for), OR, there needs to be an accessible passive skill that gives this buff and major de-buffs (etc).
In my testing, (and mind you I am new at this and just an average player) these buff are the biggest contributor to dps, and not longer dots, although I will admit the longer dots do make it easier on rotation and light weaving.

I hope the developers find this helpful.

Keep in mind you can't directly compare trial dummy parses, if that's what you're looking at. Try the 3 mil or 6 mil dummies for direct comparisons.

VadimAleks

Casdha wrote: »

These changes do not affect players like me in any noticeable way.

Taking the easiest dungeon on normal is not the best way to test. Try something more serious, like veteran Wayrest Sewers.
I'm not saying that you kill Alina - but Garron will already give an idea of ​​the changes in dps. I somehow survived the past nerfs of my werewolf (dps drop to 20k), but this patch will completely destroy me. (I'm not a "dummy warrior". I play solo.)

siddique

Casdha wrote: »

taken and edited from another post I made Here.

I did a quick run through Fungal Grotto 1 and it was about what I expected which is not much difference at all. I would hit 80k+ on the trash crab adds in the middle and the end. I tend to stay around 12k per target (for some reason I was thinking Brawler maxed on 6 targets but it must be a couple more). I still got around 90% of health on shields for max targets as well so no change for me.

What does this mean? These changes do not affect players like me in any noticeable way.

(I took a pic with the event reward to prove that I was on PTS)

edit: side note - this is the first time I've ever taken a companion in on one of these and them not die once (I admit I haven't tried in a while) so it makes me wonder if ZOS has done some tweaking to companions as well.

Incorrect. Most people who have tested content on pts arent even bothered about the 25-30% dps loss. They are bothered with:

1. The change to the damage and healing over time durations, which make the combat very tiresome, mundane and boring.
2. The change to these over time abilities ticking once every two seconds, which makes some of the recent harder content nearly impossible to complete without wipes/multiple deaths by even experienced groups.
3. The fact that the dev team seems to be out of touch with their own game, and this has been explained multiple times before in this thread.

While DPS nerfs have happened in the past, they haven't completely destroyed any sort of class identity to this extent. Moreover, endgame players, if there are any left, will very well adapt and still clear content. These changes make most recent content inaccessible for midtier groups, something they said they were trying to change. That is what bothers people.

P.s., fungal grotto 1 with an aoe on dozens of crabs is not a proper test. Go do some base game dungeon on vet and see where you stand.

keto3000

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

LACK of IN-GAME ACCESS to MYTHIC items for Base-Game-Only players

This makes the game PAY-TO-WIN for many Base-Game-Only players, which include fixed income players, students, those with heavy family expenses, lower incomes, etc....

Since we are discussing Accessibilty issues including OAKENSOUL, 1 Bar setups, & the push to "close the skill gap" between newer and veteran players in both PvE & PvP, let's also discuss the P2W lack of in-game access to MYTHICS, in general.

CONSIDER:

Clockwork City's exclusive access to Transmutation Station:

Access ALLOWED for Base-Game-Only players since they could use that station in other players' home & still be able to use earned their Transmute Crystals.


Summerset's exclusive access to the Jewelry Station:

Access ALLOWED for Base-Game-Only players since they could get jewelry crafted by another player who does have access.


HOWEVER:

Greymoor's exclusive access to Antiquities System & Mythics:

Access DENIED to MYTHIC ITEMS for Base-Game-Only players since LEADs cannot be acted upon, and, for players that have Greymoor and the Antiquities system, may still be DENIED since they cant access leads in un-owned DLCs, etc.[/b]


ZOS Please FIND A WAY to allow in-game access to all MYTHIC ITEMS for Base-Game-Only players:


--A weekend vendor exclusive for MYTHIC items?

--Event tickets to earn fragments for specific Antiquity Leads (as an alternate path to digging) that are found, then later combined to form that MYTHIC?

--Earned vouchers redeemable at Rolis?


Thank you. in advance, for consideration.

Cheers, keto

You have touched on a very interesting & important subject and while it may not be strictly a "combat balance" topic - without a doubt power creep & OP sets or dlc classes or skill lines are used to generate revenue. So I believe that this is also an important feedback for the devs, so they could adjust stuff better & pass some information to other teams that handle monetisation.

If the most important reason to buy new content is to stay competitive vs other players - then something is wrong. Players should have other, more important reasons to buy new content. Other than making their PvP character stronger or increase their PvE DPS. Look no further than the recent update (Oakensoul set) or even a couple of years to the past (Zaan set). The pattern repeats every time there is a new update. Because - here is the most important part - competitive players - for the most part actually hate P2W stuff. Forcing players to spend extra cash, just to stay competitive is a very predatory practice.

With that being said, ESO is still in a decent spot, when compared to competition. Take a WoW for example. Recently I was interested in playing that game, since the new upcoming update for WoW actually looks nice. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that WoW, in 2022 still requires you to pay sub, just to stay competitive as "free" player still has a level cap & other restrictions (which pretty much means that since WoW is marketed as F2P game, a subscription makes it P2W when compared). But, just because one company does a even more horrible stuff, it should not be a justification for other company to also do P2W stuff, but in a lesser scope.

TLDR:
Most important thing I would like to say that it is bad when way stronger stuff is locked behind additional payments. There should be a way to obtain everything that gives an additional advantage - just by playing the game.

It could be done in a variety of ways. For example - adding crown coffers (tradable containers with crowns currency inside) to the crown store. That way, players who play the game could still, legally & officially buy crowns for gold (from guild traders), but it would not cut any potential cash income.

Other idea is even simpler - just make ALL gear tradable. Mythics, DLC dungeon gear... everything.

^ That way players will be able to get the gear without additional payments and therefore the whole argument of most "P2W" elements is gone forever.

I know this topic is about combat feedback, but I think that unfortunately, at this point, it is kinda tied to monetisation, so keep that in mind, as over time it is getting more & more noticeable. Power creep behind paywall is never good.

Thank you for your supportive comments!

My original post is NOT intended to cry out 'Pay-to-Win" re MYTHICS, but simply to express a concern on behalf of alot of new players that I've been helping or chatting since the last FREE play week, many of whom are students, fixed incomes (retired, COVID-related losses, etc.)

Many Base-Game-Only players can eventually (hopefully) afford to buy more of the game (DLC sales, etc,), but,

They should, IMHO, have some type of in-game means to obtain MYTHIC items-- yes, they go along way to helping with combat!

You've suggested some creative ways here, and I suggested some ways in my OP.

Hopefully, there can be some non-controversial options to help close the Combat/skill gap between newer, Base-Game-Only players & veteran players with access.

Cheers,
keto

RedBullTex

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the combat changes in Update 35. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Light and Heavy Attacks
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • Do you feel like Light and Heavy Attacks still provide meaningful impact to your play experience after the adjustments? Please explain your reasoning.
• Damage over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Damage over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
  • While using Damage over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
• Healing over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Healing over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
  • While using Healing over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
  • How do you feel about the healing experience and its overall impact in your primary activities (PvP/Dungeons/Solo/Trials)? Has your sentiment changed based on these PTS adjustments?

RedBullTex

Xbox player last request. My raid team has been together like 4 years. The stuff y’all wanna do is gonna kill my team. Why would y’all do this? We have like half the team already wanting to retire now. Is this because of the new people you hired or you don’t want ro update the servers? We all know it’s not to help players. I love eso and my team. I really don’t wanna see the game get ruined. Please don’t do it.

https://youtu.be/MiZRxNuVnlI

keto3000

Krym wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

TY, Krym, for your consideration, however, I specifically stated that I am ONLY suggesting that MYTHIC items be made available/accessible in-game.

The same way that:

Crafted jewelry (exclusive to Summerset) was made available/accessible to players who did't yet have Summerset.

Transmute stones & ACCESS to another player's Transmute Station was available/accessible to players who didn't yet have ClockWork City.

Mythics could be made available/accessible to players who don't yet have Greymoor (see my OP).

The point is not moot, imho, since Mythics are a big part of alot of players' builds.

Cheers, keto

jewelry still requires access to summerset (according to UESP). the only way to get it is buy the dlc, have eso+, or play during one of it's trials. and if you have access to summerset via eso+ (no point in buying the dlc really), you have the same access to greymoor.

mythics being a "big" part doesn't mean it's a required or necessary part, and then is still only applicable for mythics from the the latest chapter. a lot of players' builds use wading kilt, which is a blackwood item. and blackwood became part of eso+ last month.

point is the "pay 2 win" argument was only borderline valid the year greymoor was the current chapter (because the only way to get it was to buy it).

Once again, YOU... COMPLETELY...MISS...THE... POINT!

You insist on conflating my suggestion & bringing up, DLCs, ESO+, & peripheral issues that are NOT in my post.


READ:

CRAFTED JEWELRY CAN BE MADE FOR BASE_GAME_PLAYERS WHO DO NOT YET OWN SUMMERSET.

TRANSMUTE STATIONS & TRANSMUTE CRYSTALS CAN STILL BE ACCESSED BY BASE_GAME_PLAYERS WHO DO NOT YET OWN ELSWEYR.


IMHO....

MYTHIC ITEMS & LEADS SHOULD ALSO BE MADE ACCESSIBLE (SEE MY OP) TO BASE_GAME_PLAYERS WHO DO NOT YET OWN GREYMOOR.

--Weekend MYTHIC vendor?

--Event Tickets - earn fragments for specific Antiquity Leads (speicifc Leads still need to be farmed that can then be
combined to form that MYTHIC item?

--Writ Vouchers - Earned vouchers redeemable at Rolis Hlaalu?


Thats it. Thats my point, nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers,
keto

keto3000

code65536 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

How are we supposed to "trust" (thanks Rich) the dev team know what they're doing when they said this in the combat preview for update 34:



And now... update 35 sledgehammer nerfs across the board, every single class ransacked, most skills rustled.

To be fair, the clause right before that was "since this is the big Chapter of the year". They promised only small changes for the chapter (ostensibly to allow people to digest the content of the chapter, though more cynically-minded people may see a linkage with chapter sales); no promises were made for subsequent content.

But as I've said before, surprising everyone with these changes in U35 was a monumental mistake. They needed to engage the community much earlier, like what they did two years ago with that special PTS. Instead, we have this current debacle...

Hey @code65536!,

I'm a longtime admirer (like many here) of your insightful & always thorough commentaries over the years.

It seems like so many of the ESO content creation/influencers/stream-team members, etc are close enough, and in regular 2-way communication with the ZOS dev teams, even in their ESO discord.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

This whole post has the tone that it exists in some kind of dialogue vacuum between ZOS devs/player-base, ---but in reality, it doesn't.

Why arent there any scheduled PTS endgame runs with invited ZOS observers present, firsthand, on the PTS so that all these player-based concerns can be viewed in real time by the devs, themselves, and then communicated to us here in the forums?


@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Do any of your guild runs include invited members of the ZOS Combat Team to scheduled PTS runs -or-can you do that on an upcoming run?

@code65536 Can't you or one of the other main end-game players/guilds who are planning additional test runs on the PTS arrange with the ZOS COMBAT TEAM devs to be present, FIRSTHAND, to see live player-generated information?

It just seems like the tone and conversation here is like listening to 2 parties--
ZOS devs & player-base who both want the same thing,--
Good, vibrant game--
but arent taking time to view key issues, together, FIRSTHAND.


Kindest regards,
keto

Casdha

@siddique , @VadimAleks

I never said a player like you, I said a player like me. This was simply my feedback but if you had read my comments in the thread that made me decide to try this myself then you might understand better.

This is what I said in that comment:

Casdha wrote: »

I really don't understand this whole notion of (I want to play hard content, I love Hard mode end game stuff) Then they make a change that keeps you from being as good as you use to be and it's all (I quit, I'm leaving because I can't do this stuff as good as I use to anymore).


It really doesn't make any sense to me.


As far as I'm concerned they should have fixed animation canceling as soon as it was found and this game should have always been based on reactionary game play (action, reaction/counter) and not try to act like a turn based rotation type MMO where you don't even care what your character is doing as long as you can hit buttons in a certain order to get a higher number. To me this game has been going the wrong way ever since they started penalizing players from dodging attacks too many times and nerfing skills that actually did their job like reflecting a players full strength ranged attacks back at them if they didn't switch tactics when it was active.

As far as on topic goes I'm updating right now. I've used the same gear since Elsweyr came out, I loath the idea of rotations and meta chasing and I generally pull 12k per target so anywhere from 12 to 70k when I solo a group dungeon. I'll see if there is any change in results from the way I normally play.

edit: another comparison other than an MMO - Back should be Back, and a hit should be a hit but back, back, low hit should not be Fiery Chains,,,,, and its not, Fiery chains has its own button if you want to do fiery chains.

nhaley54ub17_ESO2

I understand the desire to reduce weaving and APM. The current PTS options do not help newer players. In order to help newer players ZOS should increase the damage of all abilities by 25%-50% and lower the damage of light and heavy attacks. That would decrease the need for weaving while making newer players feel power when using abilities. This would close the damage gap between newer/casual gamers and top end gamers, as the 1 sec ability cooldown is universal regardless of skill level. Light attacks should have a base damage of the damage of the current weapon and heavy attacks double the damage, but plus any weapon/spell damage buffs. This would make Nirnhorned more relevant and actually a viable weapon trait again.

Kusto

nhaley54ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

I understand the desire to reduce weaving and APM. The current PTS options do not help newer players. In order to help newer players ZOS should increase the damage of all abilities by 25%-50% and lower the damage of light and heavy attacks. That would decrease the need for weaving while making newer players feel power when using abilities. This would close the damage gap between newer/casual gamers and top end gamers, as the 1 sec ability cooldown is universal regardless of skill level. Light attacks should have a base damage of the damage of the current weapon and heavy attacks double the damage, but plus any weapon/spell damage buffs. This would make Nirnhorned more relevant and actually a viable weapon trait again.

Lol. If Zos increased all the abilities by 25-50% then the top players would parse over 200k despite nerfing light attacks. And the floor would go from 5k to 7k. So the gap would go even wider.
There's no way to close the gap other than nerfing the top so they drop closer to the floor.

nhaley54ub17_ESO2

Kusto wrote: »

nhaley54ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

I understand the desire to reduce weaving and APM. The current PTS options do not help newer players. In order to help newer players ZOS should increase the damage of all abilities by 25%-50% and lower the damage of light and heavy attacks. That would decrease the need for weaving while making newer players feel power when using abilities. This would close the damage gap between newer/casual gamers and top end gamers, as the 1 sec ability cooldown is universal regardless of skill level. Light attacks should have a base damage of the damage of the current weapon and heavy attacks double the damage, but plus any weapon/spell damage buffs. This would make Nirnhorned more relevant and actually a viable weapon trait again.

Lol. If Zos increased all the abilities by 25-50% then the top players would parse over 200k despite nerfing light attacks. And the floor would go from 5k to 7k. So the gap would go even wider.
There's no way to close the gap other than nerfing the top so they drop closer to the floor.

no, I meant keep the increased time on DOTs and keep light and heavy attacks with lower damage. The majority of damage will come from abilities, but the global cooldown would remain 1 sec. This would make weaving less effective, thus closing the gap. The only thing that would separate top players from casuals would be how effective and optimized the top players' rotations are, not how fast they can press buttons. This way if a top player creates a great rotation, more people could mimic it and get similar results. There would be no "stick stills" required. Combat would be more strategy and opportunity based.

Kusto

nhaley54ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

nhaley54ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

I understand the desire to reduce weaving and APM. The current PTS options do not help newer players. In order to help newer players ZOS should increase the damage of all abilities by 25%-50% and lower the damage of light and heavy attacks. That would decrease the need for weaving while making newer players feel power when using abilities. This would close the damage gap between newer/casual gamers and top end gamers, as the 1 sec ability cooldown is universal regardless of skill level. Light attacks should have a base damage of the damage of the current weapon and heavy attacks double the damage, but plus any weapon/spell damage buffs. This would make Nirnhorned more relevant and actually a viable weapon trait again.

Lol. If Zos increased all the abilities by 25-50% then the top players would parse over 200k despite nerfing light attacks. And the floor would go from 5k to 7k. So the gap would go even wider.
There's no way to close the gap other than nerfing the top so they drop closer to the floor.

no, I meant keep the increased time on DOTs and keep light and heavy attacks with lower damage. The majority of damage will come from abilities, but the global cooldown would remain 1 sec. This would make weaving less effective, thus closing the gap. The only thing that would separate top players from casuals would be how effective and optimized the top players' rotations are, not how fast they can press buttons. This way if a top player creates a great rotation, more people could mimic it and get similar results. There would be no "stick stills" required. Combat would be more strategy and opportunity based.

Except the floor is currently 5-10k and they don't use any build and even try to mimic rotations. If they did they wouldn't hit 5k. They simply spam 1 skill or light attacks. Some people just don't care. And the rest of the playerbase shouldn't suffer because of them.

Thecompton73

CheeseTuber wrote: »

Did anyone understand what the guy above wrote or is it just me that is having trouble? I've been trying to parse that info for the last 10 minutes and I still don't get it ....

True story, that guy is the ONLY person I've ever blocked on the forums because of the insane gibberish he spouts nearly non-stop in every discussion.

BretonMage

@Tannus15 made a cogent post over on another thread that was susequently closed. I hope they don't mind if I added it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7664532/#Comment_7664532

the power creep has nothing to do with CP or light attack weaving.
CP 2.0 is weaker than CP 1.0 and just last patch they nerfed the best damage CP nodes from 10% to 6% damage bonuses.

The actual cause of power creep

• Introduction of new debuffs and buffs. minor brittle, major vulnerability, major courage, minor courage, major slayer. the unique damage buff from pearlescent, sax heel increased duration of major force. the list goes on.
• new sets that give us easier access to these buffs. turning tide, kinra's, roaring opportunist etc.
• skills getting over buffed which far outshine other options. stampede, carve, crystal weapon.
• hybridazation allowed powerful sets like rele be used with very little draw back. before it was stam only, which meant melee only which is much harder to keep up light attacks. now i'm using it with double inferno staff builds.

the vMA leader boards are a perfect example of what i'm talking about. a high vMA score is 600k, it's the benchmark score pushers are going for. When thrassian's was released in it's OP state the leaderboard was seeing 610k or 620k scores. When thrassian got nerfed we saw scores drop back to 600k. Since the further nerfs i'm seeing even less 600k+ scores each week. Only the top 1 or 2 people, not the top 10. Some classes haven't hit 600k on live. Not one person.

Another example, lets take a look at 3m and 6m dummy parses in older sets. If I do a parse with julianos and mothers sorrow on the 3m dummy, it'll be around 45k, less on the 6m because of sustain issues.
That's spot on what I was getting 2 years ago.
I tested that on PTS and barely hit 40k

go back to that list of buffs and debuffs. They have added all of these to the 21m dummy! Of course the numbers are higher. Go look at the buffs and debuffs on the original 21m dummy, so many more have been added.

Every update, not chapter, update, they add a new set that adds to the group dps potential.
Then they nerf our characters because that potential is too high.

That's what this is. They are nerfing our characters because the group potential is too high. This is why it hurts solo players, small group players and less coordinated players more. Because they don't have good major vulnerability uptimes. They don't have good major slayer uptimes.

This is entirely the wrong approach. It makes content like vSS HM portal significantly harder because you don't have a full group worth of buffs helping you with that particular DPS check.

If they really want to raise the floor, then they need to move the buffs from group support to individual power.

Brun1234

Tutorial, tutorial, tutorial. This has been brought up more times than I can count, and has already been acknowledged as a probably necessary addition down the line, but it seems the game simply has to do a better job of pointing people to the progression that already exists.

I keep seeing this brought up as a suggestion, and I don't necessarily disagree. But I think the reason ZOS doesn't make a more in-depth tutorial about LA weaving is that they're afraid that it's so unintuitive and "clunky" that most new players would take one look at what they're being asked to do by the tutorial, say "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, it sounds like a bug", and drop the game. This is even more true for veterans of other MMOs - trying to explain LA weaving to WoW, GW2, or FF14 veterans is going to result in quite a few raised eyebrows - it's a "feature" that sounds unwieldy on paper and doesn't really have an immediate payoff in terms of satisfaction - LA weaving only really starts to "feel" good once you start getting good at it. Yet at the same time it's basically required to participate in any kind of endgame content - outside of some niche builds it isn't an optional bit of flavor. It's a core mechanic - and I think they're also a bit hesitant to declare up-front in a tutorial that "you basically have to LA weave to be competitive", since the game is heavily marketed on the idea of playing your own way.

Even the wording of the loading screen tooltip about LA weaving - which simply explains that abilities and light attacks don't share a cooldown with each other - only kind of *hints* that LA weaving is this thing that may be possible, when it could easily be more explicit. The current lack of tutorial means that, for someone going in blind, they aren't likely to find out about this little idiosyncrasy of ESO combat until much later in the game when they're already invested, and less likely to drop the game (they're also more likely to have spent money on those all-important microtransactions!).

ZOS is kind of boxed into a corner here. Being more transparent about just how *required* LA weaving is has the potential to turn off a lot of new players before they even give the game a chance. However, they can't just nuke it completely without pissing off a lot of the community that finds it engaging.

Tommy_The_Gun

Something that I would like to mention (and I guess it is not a rocket science to figure out) if the goal is to make content more accessible, then imho number one thing ZOS should do, before introducing any combat changes whatsoever is to add a group finder support for all group content.
^ Because for most people that is the barrier holding most of them back. Why are players don't improving their skill & knowledge just by playing the game ? Because they don't need to. A lot of players stick to group dungeons and are not doing the harder end game (trials) because of that. The DPS they do is "good enough" for dungeons. So why change build & rotation ? Hardest content most players can do is vet dlc dungeons - and those can be challenging too, but it is not the same level as vet dlc trials.

If players decide what content they do and they have to:
A - Use group finder and... *poof* - mm has found you a team. Go kill stuff !
B - Type in chat "tank lfg nSS"... and they are not even guaranteed to be picked, if for example they don't link in chat certain achievement or something to "prove" they can do stuff. And this "LFG" can take hours...
C - Join a progression guild (which is not easy as most of them are already established) and hope you will be picked over some one more experienced than you. But if you are joining a raiding guild, chances are that you are already an end-game player & not a beginner who is interested in "trying out" the content.

So, guess what players are going to pick ? If players could hop-in and do at least normal trials in the same way as they can do dungeons / dlc dungeons, just by using a group finder tool - then over time the skill gap will lower itself to some degree as more & more players will have the knowledge about the mechanics and they will be more familiar with the content. Also - they will be motivated more to improve their play style as trials are just different environment.

seventyfive

Oshea_OK wrote: »

-text-

On the current game to PTS I am still losing on average 10-12k dps on oakensoul

-text-

It seems like an absolutely excellent choice that the oakensoul makes you lose at least 10k dps - even though I believe that is an exaggeration in your case and partially related to other damage nerfs in the patch. I strongly hope they do not back out on this change of oakensoul. Being able to massively lower the skill required, 5 abilities instead of 10 and complete buff-maintenance-removal, and only lose what you suggest is 20% (which probably still isn't a direct effect of oakensoul) seems like a very good deal for newer players.

Casdha

I was challenged to try to solo a Vet dungeon in another thread so I'm going to copy the relevant information from the post I made here to be used as my feedback:

Arx Corinium (Veteran) Final Boss - Update 35 on PTS

Yes I know I'm slow but I'm always slow and the DPS on this fight over the whole fight winds up being around only 4k but as you can see how I have to fight this particular boss it is easy to see why as half of the fight is downtime. Also, I haven't tried this in at least 2 years so I'm a bit rusty. This is without changing the gear I use which includes a full gold set of Twice Born Star and a full gold set of New Moon Acolyte , and odd ring of Agility (no set bonus but gold and enchanted for weapon damage and the trait is infused) and a Ring of the Wildhunt. It took me 3 tries to get my method of beating this boss back down but as for how I play, it still is not too terribly different than it was the last time I tried to do this. I've only included the last boss as this dungeon took me over an hour to kill everything in it but that one dang snake that I can't seem to interrupt from healing, so I skipped that one after a couple of tries. Don't hate on me too bad this is my mat and treasure farmer as well as my Grand Master Crafter.

side note/update - I think I figured out why I couldn't stop the snake, Ember kept standing in the red circle and I had forgotten how it worked she was keeping the thing at full health.

Now for the feedback, I actually seemed to notice that it does seem a bit harder to hit my buffs while bar swapping as it almost seemed like there was a minimum time between button hits before they would register but it still feels about the same to me, at least for how I play. It actually slowed down how fast I have to press skill buttons but that caused me to miss my window to activate a skill several times because I'm not used to it.

As stated elsewhere, I play reactive, I don't parse, I don't rotate and I don't meta chase, I basically try to see how much of this content can be done just by playing around with stuff. I wonder how many others try to use that Psijic skill in a vet boss fight for sustain.

If I state a DPS value it is either dividing boss health by time (like this video) or the meters on Bandit's UI so how ever accurate those are equal how accurate my statements about DPS are.

FYI forcing this boss from one end to the other and making her face the outside wall is what makes the island on the other end always clear and it is always the same ones. You don't have to watch the whole video (it is 21 minutes) but a few rounds and you can see what I mean.

https://youtu.be/TQJZVqkBLbY

kevkj

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

If they wright before they want do some thing what and how they want to do, we would not get PTS like this.

Because if some thing is really bad you can say it the same time you see text of it. Not all changes you really need to test, to understand that it is bad.

Some changes from it text are just unnesesary and stupid.

As example if you see thingth like : Grass is blue and sky is green ... better stop to drink this thing !

@CheeseTuber

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

They should release a full writeup of proposed changes before even beginning to work on implementation and bringing it to the PTS. Not all the proposed changes need testing, you can read it and know it's bad.

Changes are unnecessary and stupid.

(Some saying that presumably does not translate well into English)

Forgive the OP, they are just frustrated mens ))))

prof_doom

Kusto wrote: »

Except the floor is currently 5-10k and they don't use any build and even try to mimic rotations. If they did they wouldn't hit 5k. They simply spam 1 skill or light attacks. Some people just don't care. And the rest of the playerbase shouldn't suffer because of them.

If they don't care, then why bother raising the floor or lowering the ceiling?
What even is the point of this patch then?

KinnikuBeam

I totally disagree with this pts on all counts.

First the reduction of the damage of the light attack and the passage of dots from 10 to 20 seconds.
The light attack is the biggest damage on a mob, boss ect... and you want to change that to allow players who do not master this practice (light attack, ability, light attack, ability ect... ) to be able to play better ???? same for the dot....

The problem is that by doing all this the dps will take quite a slap in the face, and that these so-called "players" who had no dps, will have even less!!!

For the dots, we launch them less often, but we spend our time spamming our spammable + light attack, in 20 seconds we are out of vigor or magicka, and the heavy attack go to give more less recovery !

I did not master weaving, I spent several months training tirelessly on the dummy in order to improve my level and to understand all the subtleties of the game.
It's been years that we have to constantly adapt to the change (nerf, buff, debuff the buff who was just buff ect ...) I think this patch is the patch too many

OolongSnakeTea

Perspective: Solo/All around PVE Content Build.
Class: Stam Sorc
Race: Initial Testing (Redguard, which is my live character), race changed to Dunmer

Test Enviorments- Dummy, vMA, general PVE Vet Dungeons (base game)

Light and Heavy Attacks
It kinda sucks, because I classically have done a heavy on the bar swap if I needed more sustain, and lights between- felt weaker when I was just trying to shoot a little goblin to far away to dagger, but to low health to waste my stamina with a bow. The bow was just to weak and useless in all forms of testing. Plus my build got way to complicated with the extra dots I needed to run to keep up a decent rotation on a boss parse. Light attacks typically for myself, and most stamina with a bow, are for 'I can't hit you just yet, but just you wait'- to wait for a safe opening to jump in. Typically, nothing great, but not so weak that I'm spitting on the target.

This adjusted for the better with the infero, nearly double the dmg of the bow even as a stamina character.

I also had to race change to a dunmer to get even more damage out of my build. Redguard just felt to weak to perform, and I defiantly didn't need the sustain.

Damage over Time
As stated before, they were to long/weak to cast on stray ads, unless say I swapped to use silver leash to make a trash pack like what a tank would do- and then at that point it would eat way to much into my stamina for little reward other then a few more seconds of combat shaved off.

I'm not the best at weaving, but what I can do, on live at least, feels alright and gets the job done. On the PTS I felt super just spoungy and noodles.

Healing over Time
I run crit surge exclusively (plus sometimes I add pale order in vVH cus I'm still learning that)- and felt that I was being forced to run tri-pots on my normal 'chill time' vet dungeons that I like to do to relax. It felt more intense then usual. I normally can run just stamina recovery, or weapon power if I want to be a bit sweaty (like for a score). I def felt the pinch in the 2/seconds in some places, and in other places it was just a matter of keeping my DOTS up and hoping it was enough.


Take away:
I'm not the best of players, but I'm not the worst. I'd claim to be a happy middle class, that can clear a few vet solo dungeons, a few hard modes even on a good day, and get my vMA and vVH (no trifecta/deathless cus I'm not that great yet).

I do not like being forced to use a fire staff to get competitive DPS so I can continue to do the content I like to do. I want to play a warrior with blades and a bow, or more blades. A martial powerhouse, this really is eating into the 'play any way you want to play'. And I want to play that way, but it doesn't -work- anymore with the nerfs, balances and it forces PVE players to just use the vMA inferno staff and whatever front bar that fits at this point.

Sahidom

Please do not destroy the Stamina Sorcerer skillset. We only have three skills out of the fifteen with Stamina morphs; and now your changes to Bound Armament and Crystal Weapon are very detrimental to the class identity. Just last year, 2021, ESO developers were all about developing class identity, and mid year 2022, you are pushing changes that would ruin the class identity.

LA/HA having fixed damage should have a scaling to the weapon and spell damage attribute; I understand the fixed LA/HA would allow you to introduce Unarmed Combat later; but even then, you would have to adjust the LA/HA formula on release. So, just switch the scaling to highest weapon and spell damage versus the character's highest offensive resource pool. At least then, LA/HA damage would have synergy to the Trial and set buffs that increase those stats i.e. m/M Courage. You are already converting Noble's Duelists, Undaunted sets, and others into PVE only sets, which is another reason why you should keep a scaling mechanic on LA/HA damage.

prof_doom

HackTheMinotaur's fresh feedback on Oakensoul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4obvOIoy-AY&ab_channel=HackTheMinotaur

Troodon80

Casdha wrote: »

https://youtu.be/TQJZVqkBLbY

I like how Ember just ate it immediately.

I know the point of this thread isn't to debate what another player is doing, but I'm curious why you rarely bar-swap? You do bar swap, it's just really infrequently. I know you said you were slow on DPS and it really doesn't matter if it takes 21 minutes. The rest below is unsolicited advice, so I'm putting it in a spoiler. If you want to read it, you can click the Show button. If you don't, you don't have to even look at it.

Just from running the dungeon, I know that each call lightning AoE phase is around 30 seconds apart and the time she takes to channel is around 10 seconds. That's 40 seconds your extended AoEs/DoTs could be ticking for while you're moving from island to island in this scenario and not doing single target direct damage. This boss in this scenario is a perfect example of a boss which will make use of the extended duration on AoEs.

• Put at least Volley (Endless Hail) down as an AoE and/or Poison Injection as a DoT (since they last longer now anyway). At the moment, you're not really making use of the extended durations.
• Razor Caltrops or Noxious Breath would also help as a debuff on the boss and allow you to do more damage.
• You could go with Carve instead of Brawler as both give shields, but Carve can be refreshed near its expiration up to three times (30 seconds), meaning also more time to either spam or put down other AoEs/DoTs.

Casdha

Troodon80 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

https://youtu.be/TQJZVqkBLbY

I like how Ember just ate it immediately.

I know the point of this thread isn't to debate what another player is doing, but I'm curious why you rarely bar-swap? You do bar swap, it's just really infrequently. I know you said you were slow on DPS and it really doesn't matter if it takes 21 minutes. The rest below is unsolicited advice, so I'm putting it in a spoiler. If you want to read it, you can click the Show button. If you don't, you don't have to even look at it.

Just from running the dungeon, I know that each call lightning AoE phase is around 30 seconds apart and the time she takes to channel is around 10 seconds. That's 40 seconds your extended AoEs/DoTs could be ticking for while you're moving from island to island in this scenario and not doing single target direct damage. This boss in this scenario is a perfect example of a boss which will make use of the extended duration on AoEs.

• Put at least Volley (Endless Hail) down as an AoE and/or Poison Injection as a DoT (since they last longer now anyway). At the moment, you're not really making use of the extended durations.
• Razor Caltrops or Noxious Breath would also help as a debuff on the boss and allow you to do more damage.
• You could go with Carve instead of Brawler as both give shields, but Carve can be refreshed near its expiration up to three times (30 seconds), meaning also more time to either spam or put down other AoEs/DoTs.

I don't use rotations, for me the front bar is melee (2H) and the back bar is ranged (bow) the only reason I swap bars at all on this fight is for the extra weapons buff I tried to hit as she ran back towards me and lasts most of the time until I had to move again and the psijic recharge skill I used as I waited. The weapons buff on the front bar has a heal on it when it ends so I have to let it end to get the max heal but getting it restarted when I want was the problem I was running into. I was hitting the key but it was so close to the key I hit before it it would not register as if I hit it when I wanted it to.

Edit; the buff on the back bar works on all weapons, the one on the front only works with 2H

Another example would be the frost troll in Maelstrom that needs a ranged interrupt to keep it from destroying an island I would have to switch to back bar for that. As I have a ranged bow skill slotted with interrupt for that.

TLDR; I have more fun learning and playing with the mechanics of the game vs trying to burn something down.

Troodon80

Casdha wrote: »

I don't use rotations, for me the front bar is melee (2H) and the back bar is ranged (bow) the only reason I swap bars at all on this fight is for the extra weapons buff I tried to hit as she ran back towards me and lasts most of the time until I had to move again and the psijic recharge skill I used as I waited. The weapons buff on the front bar has a heal on it when it ends so I have to let it end to get the max heal but getting it restarted when I want was the problem I was running into. I was hitting the key but it was so close to the key I hit before it it would not register as if I hit it when I wanted it to.

Another example would be the frost troll in Maelstrom that needs a ranged interrupt to keep it from destroying an island I would have to switch to back bar for that. As I have a ranged bow skill slotted with interrupt for that.

Fair points. But also why I think this is also a good example of why ZOS's extentended AoEs miss the mark.