PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

JustAGoodPlayer

RedFireDisco wrote: »

You said don't worry heavy attack builds we're not forgetting about you and then proceeded to absolutely gut my heavy attack to the point where my build is useless. It's completely and utterly useless.

I've seen a lot of hyperbole and drama about a few percent here and there but THIS is not it. When 14K heavies do 4-6K, then that's one of if not the biggest nerf in the history of this game as far as percentages.

What exactly is a ranged magblade supposed to do to kill someone? Spam Swallow Soul and get them down to 75% and be out of resources? Use Soul assault once every five minutes and die on the 5th tick?

Spam light attacks that do no damage and then hit them with spectral as they roll dodge your only burst, lol

Do not worry HA players.

We just wipe you this update.

But in next update players feel real hell !

So wiping you now is love )))

May be like this ? ))

They just delete us before they do some thing really bad to the game ))) ? ))))

Fabi95

I'm carrying over one of my posts because I posted it in a wrong section before:

First off, I'm liking to thank you that your team incorporated suggestions from the Templar feedback thread. I'm genuinely happy to see that feedback is really considered! They are my favorite additions I'm looking forward to in update 35.

As for feedback about game balance, I'm going to focus on the current changes: I did notice a serious discrepancy in healing with the "Radiating Regeneration" from Restoration Staff line, and "Vigor" skill from Alliance War line. They are now extremely similar in values, despite that "Regeneration" requires a restoration staff. "Vigor" is universal and does not need a weapon.

It plays a big part in ESO what added utility a weapon (such as a staff) provides. The Restoration Staff is meant for healing. So its passive skill "Restoration Master" adds 5% more healing while actively wiedling the staff. However, the nerf to "Regeneration" makes this no longer worth it for many situations, and the passive skill does not balance it out.

Why? Because now healers could switch to "Vigor" and use a backbar destruction staff with a weapon damage enchantment, and get better use and healing out of this than using the "Regeneration" restoration staff skill. Not only does that feel wrong, it is making things more difficult for dedicated healing builds. The Regeneration nerf will likely make people consider to use either Vigor or Energy Orb, with don't require a staff at all. Considering that "Echoing Vigor" provides a big area radius and increased duration, this is particularly putting the restoration staff at a disadvantage now.

My suggestion: "Radiating Regeneration" needs to be more closer to its value in update 34, at least to a skill like Energy Orb. The Regeneration skill makes it already difficult to target many people at once, unlike the area of effect healing skills (like Vigor). Having to target people and using a skill multiple times should be rewarding and add value. Right now, the only added utility with "Radiating Regeneration" is the provided mobility, because players don't need to stand in a healing circle.

One more plot twist: On stamina builds, "Vigor" can now manage to provide more healing than the "Regeneration" skill. The question that arises here is, are magicka Restoration Staff healers supposed to heal less over time than a stamina damage dealer with Vigor? If not, this needs to be carefully corrected in balance, so that this is not becoming an issue.

Because additionally, when it comes to solo healing and PvP, "Resolving Vigor" is now outstanding compared to "Rapid Generation" - particularly that "Resolving Vigor" now has the Major Resolve buff. While "Resolving Vigor" guarantees that you heal yourself and not someone else by accident, which can be the case with "Regeneration". With even better healing than "Rapid Regeneration".

Below are images I took on the PTS, with a magicka character, for a rough comparison how close the skills are in healing value now.



Thanks for reading.

Krym

code65536 wrote: »

One more thought that has been rattling around in my head:

The change this patch came out of left field;

then you didn't pay attention, why do you think they tested the PTS changes in the first place? obviously not because they were happy with the state of things. it's not like this fixed itself in the meantime, a correction was coming at some point after all the bandaids.

there also has been constant talk about the lopsided progression and the jumps in difficulty and the requirements for content, even people who didn't quit because of it find it annoying.

HEIIMS

code65536 wrote: »

One more thought that has been rattling around in my head:

The change this patch came out of left field; we had just spent a year doing the whole hybridization transition, and just when it looks like the dust is settled and we can finally get some modicum of stability after years of exhausting changes (starting with the standardization passes after Elsweyr, which was 3 years ago), and "surprise!" we get the biggest disruption since Morrowind.

Often in the past, I've come across the sentiment, "we need to complete X before the new patch because we'll lose a few weeks as everyone adjusts". Well, for Update 35, it's more like, "we might as well start over". Do you think that players regard the constant changes as enjoyable? That we consider lost power and lost progress as fun? When preparing all the nerfs in Update 35, did anyone stop to ask, "will people think that this is fun?".

I was wondering the same thing, to me it is really bizarre that all of the U35 in its entirety passed through as is, and that the balance team was like “looks good, print!”. The fact that most of the combat changes only “make sense” (and I use this wording very loosely) in a dummy parse scenario but make no sense in some of the games content (Cloudrest, Asylum Sanctorium, Rockgrove etc.) makes me wonder if they were actually tested if at all. From how the damage compares between the classes it feels like only dummy parses were addressed, but even then, we have things like templar jabs being inferior to a weapon skill line spammable or warden’s Scorch getting nuked out of nowhere, or sorcerer’s pets becoming useless (it’s no surprise to anyone that this is a very favored class among casual players) and many other things.
Another surprise was the LA/HA changes being the least controversial change of all. Everyone expected Stampede/Carve getting nerfed, yet we have 8 “Carves” on our bars now
To me, this whole U35 balance update looks like some sort of brainstorm idea you’d hear in a balance team meeting, some of which might end up realized into an actual patch but not all of it, and definitely not in a way they did it. Perhaps they expected to get such abrasive reaction from the community and decided against the special PTS testing as they’d find it a lot more difficult pushing these changes through otherwise. Opposite to just “rip off the band aid” and hope the community warms up to them. A lot of people also theorize that this just a part one out X balance updates, which is why they appear to be pushing this one in such a manner. The only thing we can do is wait and see, and hope that they will listen to our feedback, but I’m afraid that there won’t be many people left to see them if this is going through.

JustAGoodPlayer

If they wright before they want do some thing what and how they want to do, we would not get PTS like this.

Because if some thing is really bad you can say it the same time you see text of it. Not all changes you really need to test, to understand that it is bad.

Some changes from it text are just unnesesary and stupid.

As example if you see thingth like : Grass is blue and sky is green ... better stop to drink this thing !

CheeseTuber

Did anyone understand what the guy above wrote or is it just me that is having trouble? I've been trying to parse that info for the last 10 minutes and I still don't get it ....

ajkb78

A few things:

1. You are great at developing content: stories, zones, trials, dungeons. You're absolutely awful at tuning combat. Really, truly, terrible. This isn't the first time you've tried to completely change combat in the game. It's not even the first time you've got it so badly wrong (the aborted heavy attack change was worse, though thank goodness that never went live). The game is 8 years old, though, and combat is still in a state of huge perpetual flux. That doesn't please anyone.

Stick to what you're good at. Keep developing cool new stories and content. Give up on the combat. Revert all the combat changes from this PTS cycle, spend the next PTS cycle doing nothing except setting up a combat committee made up of volunteers from the player community who play the game at a variety of levels and actually have an idea of what needs tweaking. (Like the old class reps that seem to have vanished.) Hand over all further combat tuning to them.

2. Nothing you have ever done to try to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" has worked. That's because however you design a system based purely on player input, more skilled players will be able to get more out of the system than less skilled players.

The way to fix it is this:

Introduce auto weaving and auto dot refreshing.

Yes, I said it. The me from a few patches ago would be mocking the current me for suggesting it, but we've finally got here. You've tried everything else and been unable to level the playing field between new players and skilled players.
So here's how it would work. Introduce a combat option for auto weaving and another for auto dot refreshing. Auto weaving will do exactly what it suggests. It will automatically fire a light attack after each skill, with a 10% chance of failure, and it will extend the GCD by 20%. Auto DOT refresh will do the following: each time a DOT ability expires, the game will wait 10% of its duration and then reapply it. Reapplying it will lock out any other skill during that GCD.

The performance of this automated routine will be considerably below that of a good practiced player (say 20% below: tune it until that is the case, the numbers I suggest above are just a starting point), but will be competitive enough that people can use it to dip their toes in vet content without embarrassing themselves.

This doesn't benefit skilled players in any way, as their performance will already exceed that of the automatic routine. It does however raise the floor and does so in a way that actually accomplishes what you've said you want to do this patch by extending DOT durations so people can concentrate on what's going on. It allows people with physical handicaps who struggle with weaving or bar switching to be more competitive. Yet for all that, it still gives players a reason to practice "real" combat as there is a path to do better than the automatic routine.

3. None of the above excuses the lack of better tutorials in the game. There should be tutorials, available from (base game) NPCs, on how to weave, how to layer DoTs etc. at a more advanced level than the utterly trivial combat introduction in the tutorial quests.

4. There's no such thing as "damage is too high" or "damage is too low".Or rather, the game has become so far out of alignment that both those things are true at once. The range of enemies in this game is so colossally unbalanced that damage is embarrassingly overtuned for essentially all base game content, where overland enemies can be one-shot and the damage they do is barely noticeable and even vet hard mode dungeon bosses are killed within a very few rotations by a good team. Yet at the other end, teams need to be pushing crazy high damage levels to have a chance of completing recent content, and incoming damage is extraordinarily punishing even for a sturdy tank.

We already have damage standards that bring consistency to damage levels throughout the game. What we need is enemy standards, so that (allowing for a bit of a learning curve in Type 1 numbered dungeons) all enemies (adds, elite adds, dungeon minibosses, dungeon bosses, trial minibosses, trial bosses) conform, at least roughly, to difficulty standards. Yes, that probably means going back and revisiting a lot of base game and early DLC content, but it's what is needed to actually bring some consistency to the game. It would be a far better use of your time than dreaming up another stupid combat fiasco.

HEIIMS

Krym wrote: »

HEIIMS wrote: »

Another false claim that has been thrown around is that it's only the endgamers who are the most affected ones. Which is simply not true. Longer DoT duration only works "on paper" or in very specific cases. Leaving the rest of community to be affected in a negative way. Just look around this very thread, we have people with 10-30k DPS posting results of their testing losing 10-50% of their current DPS on live (and a 2k DPS loss for someone who's capable of 20k is a lot more crippling than 15k DPS loss to someone who can pug godslayer for fun). What endgamers really care about is that these changes will make the game a lot less fun for us while at the same time decreasing accessibility for everyone else. Rendering these changes completely unnecessary (at least as they are presented right now).

LA weaving or even just parsing high numbers are very little pieces of what makes the 0.01% as good as they are. The skill gap in both pvp and pve exists to a multitude of reasons. You can't simple "patch in" the skill gap (key word here being skill ). I really hope developers will consider adjusting the changes or even shelving the whole idea for now. Yes, change is scary, and change is good but only when it's reasonable and grounded. As it stands now, it seems to be neither.

half of those were done with the pts oakensoul, which anyone with even basic grasp of the game could see as obvious garbage for pve. saying "it affects lower players more!" isn't wrong, but it's also a completely separate issue.

and no, that doesn't mean the devs were "too stupid" to see that, it just means it being good for pve wasn't the goal of this change, the goal was to nerf it for pvp (since, arguably, an item throwing balance out whack in pvp is a more severe issue than pve, but I doubt a lot of pve players would agree).

as for "skill", some players can't or don't want to get on a level for a multitude of reasons, some of those how the combat in ESO works. and before anyone says "but the combat is great, what about it, they just need to git gud lol" - ESO's combat is usually the first thing people mention when they say why they quit. you can make the most convoluted combat system in the world, and there WILL be people lauding you for it (especially the ones that mastered it), but that doesn't mean it will get broad acceptation or more importantly sell the game. and that's ZOS main goal, no matter how much they change numbers here and there.
oh, and as much as people are complaining about the "boring" combat now or having "skill", I know at least 2 top parsers in my group were looking forward to wearing oakensoul. why? still enough damage, half the stress of pushing your buttons. funny how that works.

You completely missed my point here, it was never meant to sound like a "git good" type of solution, as this phrase can be literally thrown around carelessly regarding any balance update. The point was that skill gap is a lot more broader and complex issue, which cannot be solved with a single swing with the balance hammer. It could be a stepping stone or a step in the right direction, however. Yet it is a complete opposite with U35. There are countless examples in this thread explaining why, from absolutely convoluted DPS rotations where nothing is lining up, to a complex mismatch of various proc conditions/cooldowns making rotations more complex than on live servers (good luck explaining relationship between enchantment procs and damage ticks to a casual player already overwhelmed by core combat mechanics and various content mechanics). Again, this update looks good only on paper, and only when comparing dummy parses which are largely irrelevant when it comes to being able to effectively clear content.

I urge you to bring your team to PTS and test the changes yourselves in content you're currently doing on live servers. I haven't seen a single example where it's easier/more accessible with U35 than live regarding actual content (Dungeons, overland, trials etc.) Yet you can see many examples of veteran players saying they were having troubles, and if people who are considered good at the game say that things are problematic you can very easily tell that it will be nigh impossible for more casually orientated crowd (which was the aim of this patch, to increase accessibility).

Jazraena

Krym wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

That would depend on the target of the rework, wouldn't it? Not something one can give a generic answer to. Generally however wide-sweeping changes should be a) Rare (they're not) b) necessary (probably, in all honesty) and c) well-thought out, targeted and addressing at least most predictable side-effects (they're not).

yet at the same time whenever something changes a) it's either too much or not enough b) needs to be done 2 patches ago c) needs to be perfect.
people want fixes for their issues obviously, but when it requires (too many) changes (since too many people want different things) that's suddenly bad. there's simply now way to do it in a way that satisfies everyone. it's also no secret that ZOS does patches in a way someone HAS to take a loss, pve getting shafted because pvp being the most obvious (see oakensoul). ofc the logical "fix" would be to separate pve/pvp balance for good, but I can guarantee you that someone will complain about that too.

Jazraena wrote: »

Many of us agree with the stated goal. The problem is that their changes do not work towards that goal. They make it worse. The LA changes are the least of anyone's concerns... except for werewolves, who loose 40% of damage and haven't ever been at the competitive top. Similar losses occur for heavy attack builds that, too, have never been at the competitive top. The DoT changes sound good, until you realize that their negligence causes durations to be far more over the place than before, thus complicating rotations, not simplifying them. TLDR: Missed the mark, mid to low end of players hurt more than the competitive top.

when you start talking about werewolves, wanna talk about vampires too? because I probably doesn't need to tell you who got the short end of the stick here.
the problem is people assume EVERYTHING will be EQUALLY balanced. LA spam is and never was a valid strategy to generate high damage, when ZOS says they want to make help the lower end player out, that doesn't mean each and every playstyle will be buffed or even improved. what about the dude who likes to DPS with a shield? heck, I could go as far and say I play as an unarmed fighter, ZOS promised to buff me and my low damage, yet they didn't. did they miss the mark? it's a game, you gotta follow certain rules.

as for the durations, 20s is (almost) completely the baseline. any morphs or passive you have to look at a case by case basis. so yes, on paper DKs for example will have 3 skills with a 24s duration - until you notice 2 of those skills you want on the same bar for buffing whip (thus easier to track and keep up next to your spammable), the third one being the standard you fire and forget. there's also a difference between extending buffs for easier management and making each and every one exactly the same - which a) some people would call boring and b) not every skill serves the same purpose. a 60 second channeled acceleration means you have to recast it one time less for the same uptime, and even better you're less likely to have it run out in the middle of a fight. then compare the new cost to the new time and it's a clear buff in every aspect.

Jazraena wrote: »

I play off-meta exclusively. Many of my builds get shafted far beyond reason because ZOS neglected to address side effects. Example: Storm-Cursed's Revenge, Draugrkin's Grip, Deadly Strike, Elf Bane and every other set that scales with number of damage sources / ticks, DoT Duration or DoT Damage. My weakest character literally gets her damage cut in half.

It's an unfinished mess that misses it's target. It needs rework, then it may be considered again.

except you can still use those. are they as effective as before? obviously not (unless they get buffed, what you gonna say then? there was a time dot was king). every change you have adapt - which I get, it can suck, but that's literally what changes do. so you don't want your effectiveness changed, I don't want mine changed, and the rest of the thread theirs. where does us take that, not changes at all forever? there will never be a rework that works for everyone.
or, I don't see anyone else complaining rele, which was king for years (even more with hybrization) is less effective due to how DSR is designed. some people might like every fight being tank & spank, and others again might find that boring. heck that just reminds me rele being meta for so long everywhere was something a guildmate complained about 2 years ago, and was part of the reason he quit. so something changing or being less effective might actually make him come back (doubt it, dude hasn't logged in for 2 years, but you catch my drift).

Vex.1337 wrote: »

If light attack weaving is supposed to be an integral part of your game please make sure your new players know about it during the tutorial of the game. Having to learn about it from youtube, especially when it can increase your DPS by 50% it is not a good new player experience and of course, you end up having a big delta between people that know about it and those that do not.

it does, there's a loading screen tip talking about it. it's also not _that_ big a part, even by ZOS' own post it's only 15-20%.
part of this update is trying to reduce that number, thus make LAs (and being able to weave properly) less important to your overall damage. so if you come in from the low end not weaving much, you don't loose as much and have a lot more room for improvement since good weaving still gets rewarded with good damage, just not as much as before.
removing it completely would basically turn this combat into another game. from my own experience it can take a while to make it "click", sadly sometimes too long for some people. but once you figure it out, it can be very rewarding (which is probably one of the reasons they kept it in).

as for information in general, ESO has a quite a big "figure it out yourself" approach. some like it, some don't, both has it's pros and cons. inevitably people look up stuff on the internet anyway (would go as far and say it's common practice these days, no matter how good a game's information and tutorials are).

... are you going to actually address any points? Or just engage in whataboutism and ramble about unrelated topics?

It's not done. It creates a massive list of side effects while we still have a backlog of other ones in the game, and misses it's mark. Whether you think change is cool or not bears no relevancy on this simple fact.

ectoplasmicninja

The buffs on Oakensoul should change from major to minor in the presence of Battle Spirit. Leave it as is for PvE. I don't use it, nor do I use one bar builds, but I can see (and have heard from other players) that it's very helpful for people who don't have the manual dexterity for bar swapping and/or can't handle the management of more than one bar's worth of skills.

The light attacks doing less damage, fine. Heavy attacks doing less damage hurts heavy attack builds which are also primarily for people with dexterity problems. The lack of sustain on resto heavy attacks is very problematic in difficult content.

The gutting of jabs and the new animation is a complete no. The new dual wield animation is also a complete no. I want to use jabs - they're critical to the class identity of a templar - but they are now so ineffective to use and also so awkward to look at that I'd rather dump the whole class. Honestly, without the animation change I'd probably still use it regardless of the nerf. We all know that a lot of people prioritize style in ESO - the sharp splinter of solid light gripped in glowing hands was way cooler.

Long DOTs? No. Too many fights involve too much mobility and will require early recasting. Long buffs would be fine, to make buff management easier. HOTs ticking at 2 seconds is problematic - tick-skipping is going to happen, necessitating things like BOL or CP spam, but since sustain is significantly worse now with the reduction to resto heavies...well. The timing changes really mess with the flow of combat in general.

I might be the millionth person to say so, but please consider balancing PvE and PvP separately. Yes, you obviously don't want to, we can see that - but it would allow for accessibility to be improved for a lot of content without making certain things overpowered in PvP.

Generally, the huge swings in balance are disheartening. I am a mid tier player so you are allegedly looking to improve my experience here, but my experience has been just fine? I haven't made many alterations for the last however many patches, and I can complete vDLCs quite adequately with Julianos and War Maiden, which is by no means a meta setup and which are both really easy to acquire. I don't feel like combat is inaccessible. But playing this patch, it feels not only much less accessible than it did, but much less fun.

Mr_Stach

So in Design or Production we use something called a Design Sprint to determine if a new Product or Direction is Beneficial.



I think that Zos is using design sprints to push Combat changes but they are missing a key feature, Validation.

Validation is so very important went testing new products and I would say that PTS is an excellent field to get Validation, if your Prototype or in our instance Balance Patch is Validated by your PTS crowd, it will generally be successful in the Live Game. But here's the hard part, if it's not Validated, you need to go back, take the feedback rework how you approach things.

Zos does not do this, they stick to their guns, they have for years. We've told them their method of Sledgehammer Nerfs and overcorrections every 3 months is exhausting, but they don't listen.

Maybe they'll listen when people just stop playing altogether.

Ambrose_Malachai

After testing the changes with some parses on the PTS:

The changes to light and heavy attacks feels far too heavy. Light attacks feel almost useless, which makes me wonder why I bother. Heavy Attacks feel far worse, even with heavy attack focused builds the damage is negligible at best. Empower makes these things slightly better, but only because the initial damage is so low to begin with. The decrease of damage on ranged attacks is both pointless and painful. Ranged weapons already had worse passives than melee ones as a general point, so nerfing ranged light attacks redundant.

The DoT changes are very bad for a few reasons. The longer durations does not make for particularly engaging combat because I'm just sitting there using the same ability for extremely long periods of time, and some dots are so weak that they aren't worth using at all compared to just continuing with spammable abilities. The second issue is that the 2s ticks create gaps in set procs and enchantment uptimes that further decreases damage. This is especially apparent on backbar based sets like Maelstrom Arena weapons but also impacts the speed at which sets like Tzogvin's can stack or retain stacks, or when a proc set would otherwise proc off a certain type of damage. Returning the damage to 1s ticks and merely decreasing the damage of each dot would rectify this second problem.

The HoT changes are not designed for this game. You would have to drastically change certain combat occurrences across the game to accommodate the healing frequency decreases and improve the system which determines who receives heals each tick. In a lot of content a heal once every 2s is too few to allow for consistent survival of frequent high damage mechanics such as in Cloudrest, Rockgrove, Kyne's Aegis, Coral Aerie, Shipwright's Regret, and numerous other dungeons and trial situations. These should be returned to their original healing values, only increasing the duration and mana cost proportionally to allow for the original goal. This wouldn't decrease the ceiling from live, but would increase the floor, which seems both in-line with the goals of the combat update and not require sweeping changes across all of ESO.

Specific class issues:

- Templar's Jabs changes feel better to weave but the animation looks really stupid. Please fix.
- Nightblade is far too static. Optimal DPS can currently be achieved with just 2 dots because their strongest dots were nerfed.
- Necromancer's best spammable is whirling blades on stam or requires flaming skulls on mag. Whirling Blades is fine, but flaming skulls is very weak and needs some extra cleave.
- Warden feels just generally bad now. They lost their identity as the ice-class or the bleed class, and just feel bad. Penetration isn't really a good class passive either since it's something that people can't really build around for any organized content. If my group were to bring Alkosh and Crusher, I as a warden can't change my Penetration into Crit chance or damage and that just turns it into a useless ability. This might actually be fixable by a "If-then" statement, where if you are at penetration cap the extra pen turns into something else, but that's kinda weird.
- Sorc is useless. Every part of their kit was nerfed and they were already lacking in AoE damage options. I can't tell exactly how much is from the changes to their kit though and their kit's interactions with the Light Attack and dot changes though.
- Dragonknight. Just make one whip version stam. The hybrid whip means you are low on both resources if you use it and it always feels worse than being low on just one. Also, their best damage ult doesn't interact super well with the dot changes because you get less damage ticking during their Standard of Might's duration.

General stats:
I'm down about 20% damage from live on my parses and some content (of which I personally did only limited testing) felt even worse. Longer fights increase the chances of death significantly and mix poorly with the healing changes. Light attacks on some classes did about 20% of my damage before and are down to about 5%, which feels like a massive overshoot.

The Trial dummy shouldn't have 100% uptime on Major Slayer. Even the highest end content doesn't have 100% except maybe in extremely short fights such as Yandir. 76% I believe is the theoretical max on Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's and is more standard in trials, so I think that would be a better addition.

Valenor

I've been running around playing the game as usual. I couldn't get into a vet dungeon. Parsed and went into solo arenas.

What I noticed as being improved: hybrid whip is cool. It makes regen more manageable. Longer dots are cool. Makes for less minmanagement.

But

Dots are too long, some going for 32 sec. 20 sec is long enough, especially with mobile fights. Dots deal no damage if they don't run their full course, which hurts players not paying full attention. Quite ironical when you read that the direction of the update was to reduce power gap.
One aoe dot that got a great treatment in a previous patch is Eruption. Instant damage is on a 10 sec cooldown. You can make use of it by refreshing it early. Which is nice. Plus it depletes magicka over time. Less punishing to recast in mobile fights. Maybe every class could get a nice aoe skill like this that hits harder than non class aoe dots with a per second cost?

Abilities triggering sets with a buff or debuff duration like seventh legion or powerful assault just don't match. While not a problem when you are experienced, it would make using these sets a lot more doable if they targeted all players in a group (12 rather than six) and had their duration aligned on the skills that can trigger them. This would reduce the gap between people who can juggle and those who can't. As a DD, I want to run PA for my group. But just casting caltrops as part of my rotation won't do.

The combat itself is great and engaging, and content difficulty is quite diversified.

However:

Trials HM are ever harder which is good. But clearly, the raiding scene is suffering from a lack of players because it's tuned for the top 0.001% (obvious arbitrary number here).
Within a team of solid players, familiar with the game and its systems, we still have huge discrepancies. These changes, especially healing, will make recruiting healer even more tedious. They aren't needed in most dungeons (so they can't learn) and are drowning when they start raiding in vet HM.

I am not saying nerf pve, but you could balance things out to make the content accessible (without being overly simplified (Frostvault Centurion boss is nothing but a shade of what it once was) while retaining its mechanical challenge.

Getting into endgame is already quite long to get familiar with all the systems implemented, so having streamlined timers for everything with 20 secs buffs / debuffs / dots from abilities and sets would make a lot of sense.

Krym

Jazraena wrote: »

... are you going to actually address any points? Or just engage in whataboutism and ramble about unrelated topics?

It's not done. It creates a massive list of side effects while we still have a backlog of other ones in the game, and misses it's mark. Whether you think change is cool or not bears no relevancy on this simple fact.

you first then, if you apparently know what misses the mark and not, should be easy to explain to the devs how to do it in a way that both fixes the issues they have and keep everyone happy at the same time. you can even use more buzzword if you want. because all I've heard so far "it's crap because I does something I don't like and does it in a way I don't agree with. oh and I got to get get used to changes, which sucks"

siddique

Krym wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

... are you going to actually address any points? Or just engage in whataboutism and ramble about unrelated topics?

It's not done. It creates a massive list of side effects while we still have a backlog of other ones in the game, and misses it's mark. Whether you think change is cool or not bears no relevancy on this simple fact.

you first then, if you apparently know what misses the mark and not, should be easy to explain to the devs how to do it in a way that both fixes the issues they have and keep everyone happy at the same time. you can even use more buzzword if you want. because all I've heard so far "it's crap because I does something I don't like and does it in a way I don't agree with. oh and I got to get get used to changes, which sucks"

I think if you go through this thread or log on to PTS you'll see for yourself what the problem is.

Jazraena

Krym wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

... are you going to actually address any points? Or just engage in whataboutism and ramble about unrelated topics?

It's not done. It creates a massive list of side effects while we still have a backlog of other ones in the game, and misses it's mark. Whether you think change is cool or not bears no relevancy on this simple fact.

you first then, if you apparently know what misses the mark and not, should be easy to explain to the devs how to do it in a way that both fixes the issues they have and keep everyone happy at the same time. you can even use more buzzword if you want. because all I've heard so far "it's crap because I does something I don't like and does it in a way I don't agree with. oh and I got to get get used to changes, which sucks"

I have. I literally brought up specific examples, ontop of other points I and others raised in this thread and others.

Whereas you literally went YEAH WHAT ABOUT VAMPIRES. Yes, vamps suck, I dislike that they're essentially detrimental in PvE and only PvP useful for their passives, but what does that have to do with U35? How are sets and skills relegated to uselessness not detrimental, some of which they only recently rebalanced and introduced? How do they achieve their goal of making DoT rotations easier by making DoT rotations more complicated?

Again, you liking change is irrelevant to this. They say A, but do F, and completely overlook what it does to B to E in the process which has only recently been addressed already, and we haven't even begun to conveive what it'll do to G to Z in the long run.

Elsonso

siddique wrote: »

Krym wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

... are you going to actually address any points? Or just engage in whataboutism and ramble about unrelated topics?

It's not done. It creates a massive list of side effects while we still have a backlog of other ones in the game, and misses it's mark. Whether you think change is cool or not bears no relevancy on this simple fact.

you first then, if you apparently know what misses the mark and not, should be easy to explain to the devs how to do it in a way that both fixes the issues they have and keep everyone happy at the same time. you can even use more buzzword if you want. because all I've heard so far "it's crap because I does something I don't like and does it in a way I don't agree with. oh and I got to get get used to changes, which sucks"

I think if you go through this thread or log on to PTS you'll see for yourself what the problem is.

Nod. I agree. I broke down and installed PTS and checked for myself. I think it took longer for me to download and install PTS than it took for me to find the fundamental problems with combat in Update 35. Debating whether I want to uninstall PTS, since I probably won't need it again for a while.

Krym

HEIIMS wrote: »

You completely missed my point here, it was never meant to sound like a "git good" type of solution, as this phrase can be literally thrown around carelessly regarding any balance update. The point was that skill gap is a lot more broader and complex issue, which cannot be solved with a single swing with the balance hammer. It could be a stepping stone or a step in the right direction, however. Yet it is a complete opposite with U35. There are countless examples in this thread explaining why, from absolutely convoluted DPS rotations where nothing is lining up, to a complex mismatch of various proc conditions/cooldowns making rotations more complex than on live servers (good luck explaining relationship between enchantment procs and damage ticks to a casual player already overwhelmed by core combat mechanics and various content mechanics). Again, this update looks good only on paper, and only when comparing dummy parses which are largely irrelevant when it comes to being able to effectively clear content.

I urge you to bring your team to PTS and test the changes yourselves in content you're currently doing on live servers. I haven't seen a single example where it's easier/more accessible with U35 than live regarding actual content (Dungeons, overland, trials etc.) Yet you can see many examples of veteran players saying they were having troubles, and if people who are considered good at the game say that things are problematic you can very easily tell that it will be nigh impossible for more casually orientated crowd (which was the aim of this patch, to increase accessibility).

wait, are you saying current DPS rotations are NOT convoluted and lining up perfectly? and even if we assume they are, what do you think makes them easier to keep up, them being longer or the same as now?
while we're at it, who do you think is more impacted by the 2s tickrate?

casual players also mostly don't care about procs and uptimes when they don't understand the game enough or forget in the middle of combat to keep basic buffs like major brutality/sorcery up. that knowledge and understanding won't also suddenly double their damage if they're still lacking in other areas (first of all not standing in stupid when they watch their rotation like a hawk to keep up these so important proc ups, as you said combat isn't a dummy, and I agree). more or less damage is irrelevant if the reasons why they do low damage are never addressed.

on top of that you got endgame players complaining about their nerfs, which was obvious to happen at some point because of the levels the powercreep has reached and since you can't just push the low end up to bring them closer together, but the effect it has there is completely different to a lowbie's who might now be able to pull his weight and not die constantly in vets with the gameplay, not damage changes (and might even allow him do to more personal damage now, despite the nerfs)

hence different aspects that have to be considered separately, like the oakensoul ring and it's nerf, not throw it all together and go "it sucks", with not alternative suggestion at all.

Jazraena

Krym wrote: »

HEIIMS wrote: »

You completely missed my point here, it was never meant to sound like a "git good" type of solution, as this phrase can be literally thrown around carelessly regarding any balance update. The point was that skill gap is a lot more broader and complex issue, which cannot be solved with a single swing with the balance hammer. It could be a stepping stone or a step in the right direction, however. Yet it is a complete opposite with U35. There are countless examples in this thread explaining why, from absolutely convoluted DPS rotations where nothing is lining up, to a complex mismatch of various proc conditions/cooldowns making rotations more complex than on live servers (good luck explaining relationship between enchantment procs and damage ticks to a casual player already overwhelmed by core combat mechanics and various content mechanics). Again, this update looks good only on paper, and only when comparing dummy parses which are largely irrelevant when it comes to being able to effectively clear content.

I urge you to bring your team to PTS and test the changes yourselves in content you're currently doing on live servers. I haven't seen a single example where it's easier/more accessible with U35 than live regarding actual content (Dungeons, overland, trials etc.) Yet you can see many examples of veteran players saying they were having troubles, and if people who are considered good at the game say that things are problematic you can very easily tell that it will be nigh impossible for more casually orientated crowd (which was the aim of this patch, to increase accessibility).

wait, are you saying current DPS rotations are NOT convoluted and lining up perfectly? and even if we assume they are, what do you think makes them easier to keep up, them being longer or the same as now?
while we're at it, who do you think is more impacted by the 2s tickrate?

casual players also mostly don't care about procs and uptimes when they don't understand the game enough or forget in the middle of combat to keep basic buffs like major brutality/sorcery up. that knowledge and understanding won't also suddenly double their damage if they're still lacking in other areas (first of all not standing in stupid when they watch their rotation like a hawk to keep up these so important proc ups, as you said combat isn't a dummy, and I agree). more or less damage is irrelevant if the reasons why they do low damage are never addressed.

on top of that you got endgame players complaining about their nerfs, which was obvious to happen at some point because of the levels the powercreep has reached and since you can't just push the low end up to bring them closer together, but the effect it has there is completely different to a lowbie's who might now be able to pull his weight and not die constantly in vets with the gameplay, not damage changes (and might even allow him do to more personal damage now, despite the nerfs)

hence different aspects that have to be considered separately, like the oakensoul ring and it's nerf, not throw it all together and go "it sucks", with not alternative suggestion at all.

Nothing in this patch raises the floor. If anything, off-meta characters will be affected at least as much and often more than a meta build

Feel free to prove me wrong. Good luck.

Goldtistic

Absolutely abysmal combat changes for the most part. Lots of positive quality of life and other additions that are massively overshadowed by the fact that you dumpstered on some skills in what can only be called a "knee-jerk reaction." The DoT frequency ticks also (inadvertently?) nerf several already subpar sets that rely on specific damage type ticks (storm-cursed's revenge) and the HoT nerf makes several pieces of content multiple times harder if you involve tick skipping and the damage frequency of enemy DoTs in PvE. 20 seconds is already far too long for any actual combat, if an enemy happens to move a tad early all of the dots are suddenly worthless, must be recast, and is a loss in dps compared to just having repeatedly used a spammable. Twins is going to be so fun!

Tornaad

I love the idea behind the patch, namely, to make it easier for new players to figure out the game. I do not think the proposed changes are in the right spot.
When I ran Vet Maelstrom with my Templar, I could not get past the first level without dying. With my Sorcerer (who is currently my main) It felt both easier and harder. My rotation felt so much easier and I loved that part of it, but it also felt harder because of the decreased damage.
Normally for both my templar and my Sorcerer on Maelstrom I can easily get to the Vault of Umbrage before I start having problems, and get to an area where I simply cannot pass.
I then ran Vet Fungal Grotto with my Sorcerer and only died because I did not get out of the way of the area attack quick enough.
I did not try to adjust the builds on either of my characters for this test.
I think that if you were to increase the damage to maybe halfway between where they were and where they are, it might be closer to the sweet spot for me.

siddique

Krym wrote: »

HEIIMS wrote: »

You completely missed my point here, it was never meant to sound like a "git good" type of solution, as this phrase can be literally thrown around carelessly regarding any balance update. The point was that skill gap is a lot more broader and complex issue, which cannot be solved with a single swing with the balance hammer. It could be a stepping stone or a step in the right direction, however. Yet it is a complete opposite with U35. There are countless examples in this thread explaining why, from absolutely convoluted DPS rotations where nothing is lining up, to a complex mismatch of various proc conditions/cooldowns making rotations more complex than on live servers (good luck explaining relationship between enchantment procs and damage ticks to a casual player already overwhelmed by core combat mechanics and various content mechanics). Again, this update looks good only on paper, and only when comparing dummy parses which are largely irrelevant when it comes to being able to effectively clear content.

I urge you to bring your team to PTS and test the changes yourselves in content you're currently doing on live servers. I haven't seen a single example where it's easier/more accessible with U35 than live regarding actual content (Dungeons, overland, trials etc.) Yet you can see many examples of veteran players saying they were having troubles, and if people who are considered good at the game say that things are problematic you can very easily tell that it will be nigh impossible for more casually orientated crowd (which was the aim of this patch, to increase accessibility).

wait, are you saying current DPS rotations are NOT convoluted and lining up perfectly? and even if we assume they are, what do you think makes them easier to keep up, them being longer or the same as now?
while we're at it, who do you think is more impacted by the 2s tickrate?

casual players also mostly don't care about procs and uptimes when they don't understand the game enough or forget in the middle of combat to keep basic buffs like major brutality/sorcery up. that knowledge and understanding won't also suddenly double their damage if they're still lacking in other areas (first of all not standing in stupid when they watch their rotation like a hawk to keep up these so important proc ups, as you said combat isn't a dummy, and I agree). more or less damage is irrelevant if the reasons why they do low damage are never addressed.

on top of that you got endgame players complaining about their nerfs, which was obvious to happen at some point because of the levels the powercreep has reached and since you can't just push the low end up to bring them closer together, but the effect it has there is completely different to a lowbie's who might now be able to pull his weight and not die constantly in vets with the gameplay, not damage changes (and might even allow him do to more personal damage now, despite the nerfs)

hence different aspects that have to be considered separately, like the oakensoul ring and it's nerf, not throw it all together and go "it sucks", with not alternative suggestion at all.

Incorrect. No endgame player is bothered about dps nerf. Read the thread.

And when the casuals forget to keep up buffs/debuffs or recast their dots, their primary dmg is their skill and LA, which has been nerfed. So they lose even more dmg.

The 2-second tick rate is bad and makes things inaccessible to midtier players because they'll find it next to impossible to figure out how to survive falgravn hm execute for example, where unstable energy ticks every second, taking more than half health of a dps. Heck, even experienced raiders with the trifecta in that trial found it hard to stay alive. This is why its not good and it proves it wasnt thought out.

Power creep helps midtier and casuals complete content they werent able to before. The endgame players, if theres any left, will benefit from this update. They'll still clear content. The majority will need to probably buy clears.

"Alternate suggestions"? Have they ever been heard? And why? Its the devs job, not the community's. People testing uncalled for changes on PTS is a favor as is.

proteinexe

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the change to the Guardian morph of Mender on the necromancer has rendered it less than useless.

When testing it with duels, you'll summon the pet and it'll be dead within about 3 seconds depending the pressure you're taking. This is in duels, not even open world where you can feasibly have 8 people smashing you. I genuinely think it would die on cast in a situation with 8 people on you.

My suggested change would be too:

Have it still take 10% damage, and it still be a pet which can take damage, BUT have it so you can heal it. Therefore you'll have a pet which you can keep alive and the trade off is more resources taken to heal both yourself and now your pet, but the upside is you're taking 10% less damage. Additionally, instead of it reflecting your health (30k meaning it can take 3k damage), have it so it has a staple amount of health on it's own. Perhaps that equal to the Matriarch pet?

Currently it is genuinely useless.


P.S. I don't even play stamsorc, but you've essentially sent it back past the F tier and to the 'do not play' tier, please revert or change something so that you don't wipe out an entire class. I understand bowsorcs are busted and crystal weapon was too strong, but BA and other factors changed are like? A friend suggested to make it an insta cast ability like any other spammable with a similar payoff to frags where you have an X% chance to get a 'power' move in which it'll do X more damage, or a guarantee crit, or a fantastical buff like it'll become a knockdown or an AOE attack. Something to sweeten the dead skill, something.

starkerealm

HEIIMS wrote: »

Perhaps they expected to get such abrasive reaction from the community and decided against the special PTS testing as they’d find it a lot more difficult pushing these changes through otherwise.

Given, they just deep sixed the Class Rep program, less than a month before announcing this... yeah, I've got think that the entire point was to limit the amount of pushback they would experience and just ram this down our throats.

prof_doom

Krym wrote: »

hence different aspects that have to be considered separately, like the oakensoul ring and it's nerf, not throw it all together and go "it sucks", with not alternative suggestion at all.

That sounds reasonable... until you realize that there's zero way to actually tell what changes did or didn't actually affect the damage output of any given character, or to what degree. It's a big part of why you SHOULDN'T just throw out giant piles of large changes.

neferpitou73

I'm waiting for the PTS to update so I can check my DPS but in the meantime let's talk about trust. The examples I give here are mostly PvP based but I'd advise everyone to read them because stuff like this happens in every part of the game.

Storytime, one night in November I was raiding with my guild in Cyrodiil. All of our home keeps were secure, we were just starting to push emp keeps and all of a suddden our scroll at Glademist starts moving. I check the map, the keep isn't flagged. It hasn't been flagged in half an hour. What's happening? Well the scroll eventually wanders its way out of the keep and back to its home territory. After this the, uh, gentleman, who took the scroll came into our zone to brag. Naturally we all reported him and sent video evidence along with the complaints. Nothing is done.

A month or two later I see a thread pop up on the forums about scrolls being stolen from the same keep. Included in the thread is a video someone made of how to exploit the terrain (a rock or tree near the keep) to jump into the keep from outside. In particular, this catches a mod's attention and I go "Well, glad that's resolved."

A couple months later, after having left the campaign I visit the forums to find another thread on scrolls being stolen from the keep. This time completely ignored by the mods.

These threads keep popping up even now, and nothing is done. ZoS couldn't even be bothered, somewhere in the 2 patches and heaven knows how many maintenance patches to move a tree.

Another story, a couple of patches ago, we noticed negate stopped working normally in PvP. Normally, when you placed a negate on top of another negate it cancels out the first negate. A tactic called "counter-negating" which is incredibly important in Cyrodiil.

Naturally I made a thread on this in the bug report section of the forums, commented on the several other threads that popped up about it, each time pinging a ZoS employee, and I never got an answer.

Only later did I find out that they somehow switched it so only one morph does the counter-negate. Oh and I should add, around this time a bug appeared in which a person would be permanently silenced after a negate, forcing them to re-log. Naturally I made a thread about this, pinged several employees again and got no response.

Now to what prompted this what turned into a bit of a rant.

For those that don't know Plaguebreak was a set that was added to combat organized groups in PvP who would have (at least one of) their healers stack recovery so they could spam the cleanse/purge skill basically making the group impervious to dots. As indicated by ZoS in their developer comment.

I designed some of these healer builds. If you would've asked me how to fix this particular issue it would be to separate the efficient purge and cleanse morphs into single target and AOE morphs respectively and had cleanse ramp up in cost per use like with streak and/or limit the number of dots that could be purged with cleanse. This would've drastically lowered the rate at which dots could be purged. Not a perfect solution but a good start that could've been tweaked as needed.

Instead the Devs decided to add a set that punishes you for using a basic game mechanic. Effectively punishing single players as well. To give an idea on how bad this set was, here is a list of things this single set makes obsolete:

-Purge/cleanse
-Templar Ritual
-Warden Netch
-Curse Eater
-Stendarr's Embrace
-Purge CP (don't even know the name because I can't use it lol)

And to top it off, this nerf, which was supposed to harm the organized groups is almost universally viewed by their leads as a buff. For multiple reasons:

1.) We can just increase healing output to outheal DoTs (leading to the current round of nerfs for HoTs)
2.) The sets procs "when the effect ends" If you die the effect ends. Therefore when you die you explode. So we get another Vicious Death that we only need to put on one build.
3.) Despite the limit that it can only be applied on one person per attack, there are a few skills that hit multiple times per second. So we can easily bypass that restriction.

Now, if you're a Dev who's playing the game and is in touch with your community. What changes do you make? Do you have it only proc on purge? Do you make it harder to apply?

No. Obviously you just buff the set further:

Plaguebreak:
This set now has a cooldown of 20 seconds per target, rather than only against targets that do not already have the DoT on them.
This set can now proc on multiple enemies from a singular attack.
Reduced the Damage over Time by approximately 48%, but this damage can now Critically Strike as it does not have ingrained modifiers built into it.
Increased the damage by explosion by approximately 3%.
The damage from this set now always applies the Diseased status effect.

I'm sooo tired of not being able to use some of my templar and warden's strongest abilities. How could you possible look at this set and say, "Hey, you know what, we should buff it."

This set needs to be completely reworked. You shouldn't explode for using a basic mechanic. Just change the effect to 5k heal absorption per enemy hit (a very underused mechanic I might add). That way it really only effects groups. Or just remove it entirely.

So no, ZOS. If I can't trust you guys to move a tree, answer basic questions on the forums, or even have a basic awareness of how your sets are being used, then I have absolutely zero trust in you to re-work the entire combat system.

Faulgor

I wanted to give some perspective on the increased DOT durations as a means to make rotations more feasible for beginning or lower skilled players.

Quoting from the recent ESO Live:

.. we are trying to reign [the power gap] in, so we can do a better job of making sure that we can make content for everyone, and that people can participate more and have more natural progression through the game, so they can dig into that mastery [of ESO's combat]

I thought about this for a while and wondered - is there really a lack in natural progression in mastering ESO's combat? There are fundamentally two issues, that this update tries to address, and which I think are the noteworthy skills that one has to master for a "proper" rotation in ESO.

1. Light attack weaving
2. Managing DOT uptimes

The first one is, almost by its very nature, on a steady progression curve - any light attack weaved between attacks is a gain. You can start with 1, and go, gradually, all the way up to 100% perfect weave. There isn't really a cliff, unless you assume that you either can't weave at all, or always weave perfectly, but neither is the case for the majority of players. Nevertheless, decreasing light attack damage can be effective in lowering the importance of correct weaving and therefore the power gap. This change also appears to be the most acceptable in the community.

The second one, managing DOT uptimes, is assumed to be a major hurdle, but how important are DOTs actually?
The issue starts with a similar assumption as the first, comparing people that don't or can't use any DOTs, to those with a very complex rotation that utilitzes virtually all skill slots.

So I went to my target dummy on live, just to document the obvious:

Spammable Only
18807

Spammable + 1 DOT
19785

Spammable + 2 DOTs
21261

As it turns out, one DOT is worth about 1.1 spammable, or 10% more.
That is more than I would have expected from the math (with a 1.5 spammable power budget per 10 second DOT, you'd assume 5%), but let's chalk that up to passives and additional status effects.

The point is: Just with weaving, one DOT is better than no DOT, and so on. There is, again, a gradual progression for those trying to master ESO's combat, and a 10% boost over a normal spammable seems to be benign enough not to be called a "cliff".

Thus, I would argue that the natural progression these changes are intended to bring about already exist in the game.
Given the negatives of increased DOT length (more boring rotations, damage nerf, usless in shorter fights), it seems prudent to reevalute this change. Obviously, there is still the issue that people actually don't progress, but I would therefore suggest different solutions for that problem.

• Tutorial, tutorial, tutorial. This has been brought up more times than I can count, and has already been acknowledged as a probably necessary addition down the line, but it seems the game simply has to do a better job of pointing people to the progression that already exists.
• Standardizing DOT durations. This has also been mentioned a couple of times, but this does more for lowering the rotation skill gap than increasing the durations. When you can simply apply all DOTs once one runs out, what is known as a static rotation, the progression from 1 DOT to all the DOTs will become much, much shorter. In some parts this has been done by-the-by in update 35, but there are still a lot of outliers, especially due to passives that extend duration beyond the standardization.
• Better visual and audio cues for DOT uptimes. Another point that has been brought up by the developers themselves is that there is too much staring-at-the-UI going on. While I generally agree, this can't be alleviated by just extending DOT durations - you still have to know how far the timer is along, and it actually becomes harder to maintain a mental metronome over 20 seconds than 10. I think this can only be solved by giving better in-game cues when a DOT has expired, and should be reapplied. Visual effects are limited in this regard, because there is already a lot going on, but much more could be done with audio. If something like the BANG! of the Templar skill Backlash could be applied to just one 10 second DOT in our rotation, it would help tremendously.

Together with the changes to light attacks, I think tackling these issues would already make it easier for players to get on the path to mastering ESO's combat, while avoiding the aforementioned negative consequences of excessively increased DOT durations (not to mention lower tick frequency).

There is a tertiary skill required for mastery in ESO that I only want to mention to complete the picture, that being weapon swap. I feel this has already been more or less addressed by ZOS through Oakensoul, even if it was nerfed this patch. Down the line, it should be reevaluated to possibly gain additional buffs like Minor/Major Slayer.

Cyber10

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, we want to follow up on the conversations around the U35 combat changes. First, thanks to everyone who have tested the changes and provided detailed and constructive hands-on feedback. We have been reading your feedback and reviewing the testing data since PTS launched earlier this week, and we are continuing that process. We are exploring some adjustments based on testing findings for PTS week 3 and beyond. We’ll share details about those next week.

We also ask that players please keep in mind that PTS is a test server. Numbers presented in PTS1 are often different than what appears in PTS5. Keeping this in mind, we’ll continue to review feedback and make adjustments as needed.

Thanks for your continued patience as we continue our testing on the PTS - please keep the hands-on feedback coming.

This is a completely inadequate response. "Adjustments" are wholly insufficient. You can not proceeded with this combat design direction. Not at all. An apology and a complete retraction is the only way forward.

Agree! I can appreciate ZOS working on some changes, but this is not it. Average damage loss is around 30% while enemy health bars stay the same. If they nerf damage to this scale the entire game should be adjusted along with it.

joaotextor

Cyber10 wrote: »

Average damage loss is around 30% while enemy health bars stay the same. If they nerf damage to this scale the entire game should be adjusted along with it.

exactly. Agree!

YandereGirlfriend

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm waiting for the PTS to update so I can check my DPS but in the meantime let's talk about trust. The examples I give here are mostly PvP based but I'd advise everyone to read them because stuff like this happens in every part of the game.

Storytime, one night in November I was raiding with my guild in Cyrodiil. All of our home keeps were secure, we were just starting to push emp keeps and all of a suddden our scroll at Glademist starts moving. I check the map, the keep isn't flagged. It hasn't been flagged in half an hour. What's happening? Well the scroll eventually wanders its way out of the keep and back to its home territory. After this the, uh, gentleman, who took the scroll came into our zone to brag. Naturally we all reported him and sent video evidence along with the complaints. Nothing is done.

A month or two later I see a thread pop up on the forums about scrolls being stolen from the same keep. Included in the thread is a video someone made of how to exploit the terrain (a rock or tree near the keep) to jump into the keep from outside. In particular, this catches a mod's attention and I go "Well, glad that's resolved."

A couple months later, after having left the campaign I visit the forums to find another thread on scrolls being stolen from the keep. This time completely ignored by the mods.

These threads keep popping up even now, and nothing is done. ZoS couldn't even be bothered, somewhere in the 2 patches and heaven knows how many maintenance patches to move a tree.

Another story, a couple of patches ago, we noticed negate stopped working normally in PvP. Normally, when you placed a negate on top of another negate it cancels out the first negate. A tactic called "counter-negating" which is incredibly important in Cyrodiil.

Naturally I made a thread on this in the bug report section of the forums, commented on the several other threads that popped up about it, each time pinging a ZoS employee, and I never got an answer.

Only later did I find out that they somehow switched it so only one morph does the counter-negate. Oh and I should add, around this time a bug appeared in which a person would be permanently silenced after a negate, forcing them to re-log. Naturally I made a thread about this, pinged several employees again and got no response.

Now to what prompted this what turned into a bit of a rant.

For those that don't know Plaguebreak was a set that was added to combat organized groups in PvP who would have (at least one of) their healers stack recovery so they could spam the cleanse/purge skill basically making the group impervious to dots. As indicated by ZoS in their developer comment.

I designed some of these healer builds. If you would've asked me how to fix this particular issue it would be to separate the efficient purge and cleanse morphs into single target and AOE morphs respectively and had cleanse ramp up in cost per use like with streak and/or limit the number of dots that could be purged with cleanse. This would've drastically lowered the rate at which dots could be purged. Not a perfect solution but a good start that could've been tweaked as needed.

Instead the Devs decided to add a set that punishes you for using a basic game mechanic. Effectively punishing single players as well. To give an idea on how bad this set was, here is a list of things this single set makes obsolete:

-Purge/cleanse
-Templar Ritual
-Warden Netch
-Curse Eater
-Stendarr's Embrace
-Purge CP (don't even know the name because I can't use it lol)

And to top it off, this nerf, which was supposed to harm the organized groups is almost universally viewed by their leads as a buff. For multiple reasons:

1.) We can just increase healing output to outheal DoTs (leading to the current round of nerfs for HoTs)
2.) The sets procs "when the effect ends" If you die the effect ends. Therefore when you die you explode. So we get another Vicious Death that we only need to put on one build.
3.) Despite the limit that it can only be applied on one person per attack, there are a few skills that hit multiple times per second. So we can easily bypass that restriction.

Now, if you're a Dev who's playing the game and is in touch with your community. What changes do you make? Do you have it only proc on purge? Do you make it harder to apply?

No. Obviously you just buff the set further:

Plaguebreak:
This set now has a cooldown of 20 seconds per target, rather than only against targets that do not already have the DoT on them.
This set can now proc on multiple enemies from a singular attack.
Reduced the Damage over Time by approximately 48%, but this damage can now Critically Strike as it does not have ingrained modifiers built into it.
Increased the damage by explosion by approximately 3%.
The damage from this set now always applies the Diseased status effect.

I'm sooo tired of not being able to use some of my templar and warden's strongest abilities. How could you possible look at this set and say, "Hey, you know what, we should buff it."

This set needs to be completely reworked. You shouldn't explode for using a basic mechanic. Just change the effect to 5k heal absorption per enemy hit (a very underused mechanic I might add). That way it really only effects groups. Or just remove it entirely.

So no, ZOS. If I can't trust you guys to move a tree, answer basic questions on the forums, or even have a basic awareness of how your sets are being used, then I have absolutely zero trust in you to re-work the entire combat system.

Excellent as always, my friend.

I have nothing to add save to chime in on the topic of longstanding bugs for the BROKEN SYNERGY UI BUG that provides the option to synergize to only three players at a time even if more are eligible to take it.

This has been broken for SO LONG and reported SO MANY times that I've just stopped bothering with it.

And that is sort of an encapsulation about how many feel about posting their feedback about the PTS in general.