PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Oshea_OK

Ok, I spent several hours testing today. One good note is that my parse has gone much better. 45k on 2 bar is a new personal best.
I Normally use Hack the Minotaur's (1) Nova Shield builds because at my average skill level, I need the extra protection when doing solo stuff, which is what I do most of the time. (2) If I feel like I am doing well, I will drop one shield set for a damage set. (3) And if the goes well, I will do two damage sets, especially if I there is a good healer and tank in a Vet dungeon.

For the 2 bar test I used Deadly Strike, Order's Wrath, Ice Heart set, and normal Maelstrom staff. I dropped one of my usual skills (Solar barrage) AEO over time effects and used purify light to increase damage. Trying to give PST the best possible chance.
Results are the following.

Templar (deadly strike , Order's Wrath)

Current Game Oakensoul = 49k

PTS with Oakensoul =35k

On average 10-15k dsp decrease on PTS week 1.

Notes: Major Heroism gives 2-5k dsp of the 9-13k dsp that Oakensoul is adding giving.

TWO bar.

Currrent Game 2 bar = 45k dps

PST 2 bar -33k dsp

Mag Scor.
Mag Scor. Hexo Ward with Mother Sorrow. Eseay 2 Pet build with Oakensoul.

Current Game Oakensoul = 44, dps.
PTS with Oakensoul = 33k dps.

Notes: Major Heroism gives 2-5k dsp of the 9-13k dsp that Oakensoul is adding me with the Mag Scor in a simular way to the Mag Templar.
---
My thoughts.
I am still average enough (Even after all the parsing I did today) that I do more dps on Oakensoul as compared to my 2 bar. The difference is significant with 10-15k dsp on average more.
The two major takeways are this.

1. Oakensoul as is, really helps average players.
2. Longer dots are easier to use, but as it stands, it guts average players dsp and so the easier rotation is negated by making content harder.

Solutions:
1. Oakensoul needs to stay as close to what it is as possible. Major heroism really helps to add to dsp for struggling players.
1a. If Oakensoul is a overkill for Pvp, then make one or two small changes to address this. 1. maybe make so the Major buffs only apply in Pve? 2.Or if critical damage is too much in pvp, only get rid of Major Force, and make Battle Spirit incompable with the ring, and leave the rest as is. 3.Also there are some pve only buffs that can help.
2. Dots and heavy attacks help average and struggling players. The dps of these need to go way up.
3. Also dots need to tick every second, because unlike a stationary parse dummy, real game play is dynamic.
4. Long dots are easier but 20 seconds might be to long. Maybe 15 could be a good comprise?

I hope the developers find this helpful.

Ardriel

keto3000 wrote: »

LACK of ACCESS to MYTHIC items for Base-Game-Only players = PAY-TO-WIN

Since we are discussing issues regarding OAKENSOUL, 1 Bar setups, & the push to "close the skill gap" between newer and veteran players, let's also discuss the P2W lack of in-game access to MYTHICS, in general.

After all, it is a business enterprise. You can't accuse them of wanting to make a profit and at the same time demand that the game is regularly maintained and updated. You should also consider that the subscription price has remained the same since release. The employees also want to earn something, which is perfectly legitimate.

I also think it's counterproductive to constantly accuse the developers of being "incompetent", "ignorant" and more, while complaining about a lack of or poor communication.
If I were them, I wouldn't want to say anything more....

I feel exactly the same as many other players here. After many years of invested time and money, the changes in this patch seem like a punishment for us. But it is really important that we remain as objective, factual and above all polite as possible. That is the ONLY way to be taken seriously.

There are many good and informative posts here that describe the problems of the patch in detail. I think someone should clearly summarise the most important points in a separate thread to inform the developers as effectively as possible.

xPoisin

The P2W is normal in this game but changes rolled out now is what is causing the pain.
I am willing to pay for access (it is not so heavy to pay few bucks for one or three months full access with ESO+) to get what I want.

But why should I do that if after I pay for content, all the content I payed for is nerfed to ground…

Jaimeh

On stamNB with daggers on the fornt bar, the strongest backbar weapon was inferno staff by far on the 21M dummy. Followed by bow (8k difference in dps), 2h (12k), and double dual wield (15k). Everybody will use the Maelstrom inferno back bar if the changes go through. How is this balanced, and how is in line with the 'play-as-you-like' philosophy, if all the other weapon choices underperform so significantly @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam? I love playing pure stamina dps in PvE, I don't want to be pigeonhole'ed to a staff backbar so I can stay competitive.

Tar000un

I parsed on PTS to have some feedback as asked, also persuaded a mate to do it.

As intro, I want to quote my previous message :

Tar000un wrote: »

[...]So, ZOS, you need to do it step by step. People are not complaining about the changes, people are complaining because you don't change : you are not changing the trials, the dungeons, the encounters.
You could do whatever you want if you were changing the content too. It's a matter of balancing the game, ie players interacting with game environment.[...]

That said, lets write about combat itself.
I will post 2 feedback.
1st from me as stamcro, parsed 98k (coral, kinras, kilt+1crit), 2nd from a casu mate, parsed 18k (mother sorrow; julianos, maw of the infernal)

1) stamcro, parsed 100k (coral, kinras, kilt+1crit), parsing and vVH (Vateshran).

• Light and Heavy Attacks
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
      It was a little worse.
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
      Mainly on parsing situation.
  • Do you feel like Light and Heavy Attacks still provide meaningful impact to your play experience after the adjustments? Please explain your reasoning.
    Yes and no. Yes because it lower my dps. No because it changes anything else.
• Damage over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
      Very worse
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
      Mainly in vVH.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Damage over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
    I didn't firstly. But after few test, vMA staff backbar reduce amount of dot and "increase" dps (compared to 2H, in static encounters), but lower survivability (no shield from carve).
  • While using Damage over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
    Despite the feeling that rapide strike is having issue about sound/animation, longer dots make trashes slower and hard to "nuke" specific encounters. Also make sustain harder when you have to refresh the dots. But backbar staff could adress the sustain while it will make surviving harder.
• Healing over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
      Very worse, you killed the necro spirit guardian.
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
      Mainly in vVH. Ghost feels useless and vigor timer feels bad (may have to tweak timer addon to track healing and not the resolve) and too short.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Healing over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
    No, I still using one skill atm, but may use 2 : ghost and vigor.
  • While using Healing over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
    Yes, 5s heal from vigor feels too short for the necro.
  • How do you feel about the healing experience and its overall impact in your primary activities (PvP/Dungeons/Solo/Trials)? Has your sentiment changed based on these PTS adjustments?
    It feels with a very bad overall impact about solo and trials.
  
  
  
  2) casu mate, parsed 18k (mother sorrow; julianos, maw of the infernal), parsing.
  
  • Light and Heavy Attacks
    • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
      • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
        She didn't notice.
      • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
        Parsing
    • Do you feel like Light and Heavy Attacks still provide meaningful impact to your play experience after the adjustments? Please explain your reasoning.
      She only parsed. The changes had no impact for her (despite dps loss)
  • Damage over Time
    • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
      • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
        She didn't really notice. Parsing still a pain for her.
      • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
        Parsing.
    • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Damage over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
      She didn't, she's a casu and she don't plan to really update her build.
    • While using Damage over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
      She doesn't really care about her dot.
  • Healing over Time
    She didn't test.
  
  
  TLDR;
  Increased dot duration is *** painfull for end game players while casu don't even care and also suffer dps loss.

Nerhesi

Wait a sec... did you also nerf all dots, except for the ones that matter the most? Status effects + Combustion?

Rimskjegg

I do apologize for quoting my own post but it just occurred to me that I forgot something rather important.

Rimskjegg wrote: »

After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Damage over Time abilities your build utilized?
Yes (see above). But let me stress that I was able to adapt because I know what was changed - that's why I swapped to more burst damage.

I should have also pointed out that the exact way I increased my burst damage is one that many, probably most, "low-end" players do not know about at all. Using Wall as a semi-spammable is by no means an obvious recourse. For the longest time, I thought this skill worked like Daedric Prey/Haunting Curse - skills which must be left to run their course for the big "bang" at the end of the skill duration to work. Then someone was kind enough to tell me that the extra explosion on Wall happens *even if* you re-cast early. As has been said by many, the knowledge gap is more significant than the skill gap and what happens with every sweeping change an update is that the knowledge gap *widens*. In "casual", "low-end" circles, outdated builds are far more likely to be regarded as "meta" and you are much more likely to hear old tales such as "lightning staff is the only good staff for healers" even though that became almost obsolete when Ice staves were changed to give defensive shields, offensive buffs that are as good or better than off-balance even when that CP node was brought back, etc. And even those of us who try to keep abreast of the most important changes, keep falling behind because we just don't have the time to re-learn our rotations too often. It's only been a month or two, I think, since you buffed Crystal Weapons, making StamSorcs much more powerful - but only for those who learnt a new rotation involving casting it every 2 skills instead of using it as a spammable. The very nature of constantly changing things that we have taken for granted *in and of itself* increases the gap between the top and the bottom. And frankly, it is becoming increasingly obvious that all these changes have so many ramifications it will be almost impossible to identify and balance them all by 22 August even for what I have no doubt is a very hard-working balancing team. So unless the vast majority of these changes get rolled back, we are going to look at more big changes to item sets, passives and so on not just over the course of the PTS but several update cycles going forward. I like that the dev team dreams big, but you have to be realistic. Combining all the aims stated in the Combat Preview just isn't possible. You simply cannot nerf so many core elements of healing and damage and at the same time "close the gap" between low-end and high-end. It just doesn't work that way.

As so many have said before me, the way to address the power gap is to address the knowledge gap. I know that's not the the combat balancing team's job, as it requires creating new content such as tutorials or differentiated difficulty levels. That is why I have to ask why it's somehow become the combat balancing team's job to reduce the power gap and widen the audience in the first place. That job has to fall on the content development team. Players here have suggested bit-by-bit tutorials based off the Fighter's, Mages and Undaunted guild questlines, which is an awesome idea. Make the in-game guilds teach their skills! Also, please keep up the work on making it easier to scale the difficulty to the experience level of players by things such as separate Hardmodes on each boss, mini-bosses that can be tackled individually or together with the main boss as in Asylum and Cloudrest, etc. The latter is actually a particularly good example because it works even on normal difficulty, effectively creating a difficulty level "between" regular normal +0 and regular vet +0 - the normal +1, +2 and +3 modes. This sort of thing is what the game needs to keep players of different skill levels engaged and motivated. Not a blanket nerf on DPS that will undoubtedly harm our sense of progression and therefore our motivation to keep playing the game. Then the combat team have more time to focus on balancing the few truly OP sets and skills - and separate balancing more between PvE and PvP. I don't undertsand how it can be so hard, for example, to make heavy attack builds a viable accessibility option in group PvE without making them ganking monstrosities in PvP. Just make the buff to heavy attack affect trial and dungeon monsters, like some of the buffs on the trial sets already do. This would make killing overworld enemies slower, yes - but that is actually a good thing, as it would provide some incentive for people to actually group up on overworld bosses, making new acquaintances, and beginning to learn some of the things that, I admit, no in-game tutorial applicable to only solo players can really teach.

WrathOfInnos

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

prof_doom

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I hope that they do understand just how much damage they've already done.
The guilds are hemorrhaging, Craglorn is barren, and social media is in full on meltdown mode.

It's going to take very drastic action to reverse this damage.

siddique

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I heard OMC disbanded, which other guild? I know people are quitting right left and center. Its just sad.

WrathOfInnos

siddique wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I heard OMC disbanded, which other guild? I know people are quitting right left and center. Its just sad.

Flatlined disbanded yesterday. One of the few Swashbuckler progs out there, and some of the most skilled players I've run with. RIP to another great group.

siddique

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I heard OMC disbanded, which other guild? I know people are quitting right left and center. Its just sad.

Flatlined disbanded yesterday. One of the few Swashbuckler progs out there, and some of the most skilled players I've run with. RIP to another great group.

RIP. Very unfortunate.

Pevey

siddique wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I heard OMC disbanded, which other guild? I know people are quitting right left and center. Its just sad.

I'm a member of a LOT of eso-related discords that schedule trial runs (including TGA, Siddique ), and I've noticed that a lot have mostly gone dormant. OMC was a unique situation because they primarily sold carries, so they needed to make an announcement and stop taking orders. But most are not doing that, they are not disbanding officially, they are just stopping or drastically reducing in-game activity. Sometimes not intentionally, just that players are moving on. They are now mostly social discords that post memes about ESO. This is what we have come to.

siddique

Pevey wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

I heard OMC disbanded, which other guild? I know people are quitting right left and center. Its just sad.

I'm a member of a LOT of eso-related discords that schedule trial runs (including TGA, Siddique ), and I've noticed that a lot have mostly gone dormant. OMC was a unique situation because they primarily sold carries, so they needed to make an announcement and stop taking orders. But most are not doing that, they are not disbanding officially, they are just stopping or drastically reducing in-game activity. Sometimes not intentionally, just that players are moving on. They are now mostly social discords that post memes about ESO. This is what we have come to.

Hey Pevey! Yes, I feel that. Most discords are more like social channels now. Including TGA 😁

Pevey

I know this thread is for feedback, but I think the feedback from pretty much every corner of the playerbase is overwhelming.

A lot of people don't bother to get ESO forum accounts, so the number of people providing feedback on the forum is admittedly somewhat small and potentially not representative of the community as a whole. But polls with thousands of responses from content creators come to the same conclusion about how players feel.

And I think that is a lot more important than gathering more numbers, at this point. Someone at ZOS needs to be looking at the bigger picture.

• Do these changes make the game more or less fun?
• Do players like them?
• Do they accomplish our stated goals?

The best thing ZOS could do as a crisis response is to (ASAP) make a statement to the playerbase along the lines of:

While we still believe in the vision of our stated goals, we have been listening to feedback, and we now can see clearly that the changes we proposed do not accomplish those goals. We are going to take the unprecedented step of reverting these combat changes to give us time to go back to the drawing board. We still believe in the goal of making content more accessible to a greater portion of the playerbase, but we understand now that these changes do the opposite and are a flawed approach. There are much better and much less disruptive ways that we can accomplish these goals.

If they did something like that, and they did it quickly, it could actually generate a lot of support from the community and maybe even turn this whole experience from a debacle to a somewhat positive thing. They could say, look, we do listen. And we did have a plan, these changes were not random. But they also WAY missed the mark, and we see that, and we see that minor adjustments are not the answer. We need to change the approach, and that will take some time.

WreckfulAbandon

Nocturnals Ploy 👏 Complete Rework 👏

Lady_Galadhiel

I am ever so tired of constant big changes. I lost all interest in doing group content once this is live.
Housing and ToT left for me.

Spiritrush

I have been a long-time supporter of this game. Unfortunately these kinds of patches push me away from the game.

I want to give credit to the aspirations of a grand talent/accessibility/content-balancing effort, which is not easy. But if I did, I would also need to comment on the lack of clarity in what that vision actually is and, even if it was clear, the lack of coherence in how these proposed changes meet that vision, which is what so many have commented on in this forum. In this regard, there is little I can add to what has already been stated by others which, as an overall direction, I would describe as the homogenization of gameplay as opposed to player progression balancing.

I genuinely feel a little bad for the team as I am confident the latest round of work was a devoted, monumental effort, but the vision does not appear to be clear, and the changes do not appear to meet the general goals of talent/accessibility/content-balancing.

When migrating or perfecting a large system, simply focusing on 'what is working' and keeping those things, and then - in context of a vision and plan - gradually working on 'what is not working' is an approach that almost always works in its simplicity. It also keeps your players (or employees or volunteers, when applied to a company or other organization, as other examples) engaged, supportive, and able to meaningfully contribute.

As such, these two points may first appear to be minor points. However, to me their simplicity speaks volumes in term of approach. In speaking with friends, we talk about these two points from the ESO live stream.

1. The first is the question that Gina so diplomatically and delicately asked during the stream - that players are tired of these massive sweeping combat changes every 6 moons or so - and will they continue or 'is this it'? With so many over time - it is exhausting for many, and the whiplash is real. The response to this from the team was not one of a clear talent/accessibility/content-balancing vision and plan that is being filled in piece by piece over time, approaching an 'asymptote of adjustments' if you will - the answer was unclear, unsure, nebulous and left us with an impression something like 'we can't promise there won't be more massive sweeping changes around the corner because we just don't know', which while honest perhaps unintentionally impressed upon us that the current modus operandi of uncertainty and frequent massive sweeping combat changes should be considered a perpetual part of the game. More importantly, however, managing expectations is an important part of management, where articulating a clear vision and plan, and fulfilling on that plan piece-by-piece over time, is a recipe for success. Note that most theory-crafters enjoy and are happy to take on bite-sized chunks of adjustments and balancing that make sense as part of a larger vision, offering meaningful feedback on one or two areas at a time for all types of players, instead of massive sweeping changes all at once that don't really meet the objectives (and adversely affecting what is already working), and that then need to continue to be re-balanced for quarters to come.

2. The second is the simple question that someone asked about the LA-weaving tutorial. It was a simple question that has been on the table for years, but the answer was also nebulous and left us with an impression something like 'it's been a part of the conversation for years but we haven't gotten around to making it because we don't know if it will be affected later' or something to that effect. Without knowing actual resource allocations and how hard everyone is undoubtedly working, the resources required to make something like a LA-weaving tutorial (and to alter it later) are relatively small compared to the resources devoted to combat in general. (I agree that a non-elite player should not need to learn how to LA-weave to clear the majority of vet content in the game - but if you want to clear vet content faster, or get certain achievements (such as HM), then you probably do. But that's not really my point.) My point is that substantial ESO design and coding resources are being spent on these massive changes, but small, simple, effective, bite-sized pieces of an overall solution that will decidedly help the community as a whole are pushed aside in favor of the development cycle's current modus operandi. Whether an LA-weaving tutorial or something else entirely, please consider delivering bite-sized elements that contribute to a coherent talent/accessibility/content-balancing vision.

I do love this game, and I'll state again here since it is related - I applaud the direction Matt announced late last year/earlier this year to refactor the underlying combat code, which we might see in beta as early as mid next year. But for the love of the game, if you really want to balance out the different player approaches to progression in the game, please get clear (and communicate) the talent/accessibility/content-balancing end-vision before then? Generally speaking, this means thresholds for:

(a) talent/accessibility tiers,
(b) class/skill/set tiers (with less homogenization please), and
(c) content difficulty tiers

- and how the three of them work together.

Dayhjawk

Devs, could we possibly, please, get taunt viewable by everyone? 1 debuff that everyone can see. It would be a huge QoL, specially for newer players, if they are able to see that taunt is on a target. It would be a bigger QoL in situations with 2+ tanks being able to see a mob has been taunted, if we could see the taunt icon/debuff on a target that is from another player.

Mr_Stach

Dayhjawk wrote: »

Devs, could we possibly, please, get taunt viewable by everyone? 1 debuff that everyone can see. It would be a huge QoL, specially for newer players, if they are able to see that taunt is on a target. It would be a bigger QoL in situations with 2+ tanks being able to see a mob has been taunted, if we could see the taunt icon/debuff on a target that is from another player.

@Dayhjawk That is an option. To view debuffs from other players

Mizzer

Hello ESO Design Team,

I don't post much but felt obligated with the proposed design changes. The engaging and action based ESO combat is the primary reason I continue to play this game. From my perspective, standardizing all DOTs to 20 secs will detract from the engaging combat. I am sure other have expressed this same sentiment but posting again to show another like opinion.

At a minimum, please distinguish between sticky DOTs and the more expensive ground DOT abilities that NPC and Player enemies can evade and need to be recast after repositioning. Possibly reduce the ground DOTs from 20 secs, make them tick faster or front load with AE damage. Otherwise, combat engagement may even be further reduced to a 1 button spammable
even though the DOT abilities have the potential to do 2x damage.

TLDR: Casting 20 sec single target sticky DOTs is Ok but having to continuously recast 20 Sec. expensive ground DOTs after enemies quickly relocate before the majority of damage potential is realized is not fun. Maintain diversity between these two types of abilities.

SeaUnicorn

Necromancer Tank and Spirit Guardian
The change to this skill makes sense for PVP, but negatively impacts gameplay for PVE Necromancer Tanks.

PVE Necromancer Tank relies on Spirit guardian as a key source of sustain, mitigation and corpse generation. Recent change to where Spirit Guardian has a health bar and is only able to mitigate 30k damage makes is last until next heavy attack,
In addition if it reaches cap on damage it can absorb before 8s remaining duration it completely disappears without generating a corpse.

see attached video clip:
https://clips.twitch.tv/EndearingApatheticSharkDxCat-ULx6hA5ipfw4mp4H

logs:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HrhMZcg2Qm1bDWnq/#type=resources&fight=48&pins=0$Separate$#244F4B$casts$0$0.0.0.Any$1000007.0.0.Necromancer$true$1000007.0.0.Necromancer$false$118912^0$Separate$#909049$auras-gained$0$0.0.0.Any$0.0.0.Any$true$1000007.0.0.Necromancer$false$118912&source=61

HEIIMS

Even though a lot has been said already, I do believe that this time everyone should speak up. From the beginning:
LA/HA changes - this was at the forefront of patchnotes and the main "flagship" change of the patch, yet despite everything else this change is probably the only one that's half decent. Even though I do believe that it is unnecessary, the overall nerf to LA/HA damage is not too big. The problem is that it only reduces the gap when looking at straight up dummy parses and nothing else. Accessibility is a word that has been thrown around a lot, yet even this change for the most part reduces accessibility instead of increasing it. In my opinion, there are three main groups of so called “floor” people. 1) People who are bad at weaving and/or do not want to LA weave 2) People who LA spam a lot only throwing in an ability cast every now and then and 3) People who mainly play HA builds. And these three groups make up for a quite a large portion of eso player base. If you queue up for a random normal dungeon 9/10 times, you’ll get at least one player belonging in these three categories. Now, which one of these are affected by LA/HA nerf in a positive way? Only the 1) category. Because of lesser impact of LA/HA damage these players will technically lose less dps by not weaving (it’s still a damage loss when they LA/HA eventually). The other two groups are completely sidelined and suffer great DPS loss.

Speaking of accessibility, another gripe I have with this patch is the nerf to Oakensoul mythic. I rarely say this, but this item was one of the best options for so many casual players, one bar builds are extremely popular. I do understand the item was problematic in PvP, but why nerf it so heavily instead of just straight up disabling it in PvP? Yes, I know ZOS does not want to separate PvP and PvE, but they can make an exception this one time. The item causes absolutely zero problems in PvE, especially trials as most of those buffs are covered with proper optimization. Yet for players who play solo or in very casual groups this item is insane.

Now the worst part of the patch notes in my opinion, the DoT changes. First and foremost, I still do not understand why ZOS is so adamant on categorizing abilities and changing them in bulk. This has happened numerous times in the past, and it never worked and had to be re-adjusted heavily in later patches. Remember Scalebreaker? DoTs were so powerful then everyone rand as many as they could, and they all got nuked the patch after. Remember ground based AOEs? Why can’t you look at abilities individually? This is an MMO, with different classes, hundreds of sets, CP, playstyles etc. nerfing/buffing abilities in bulk will never work. Venomous Claw and Daedric Prey are both single target DoTs, but they serve completely different purposes, and have completely different flavors. The former is a DK skill that ramps up in damage over time, and it makes sense having it at longer duration, the latter has a very strong explosion part at the end of it’s duration which means you should let it expire entirely before recasting it, having it at longer duration just makes no sense, it also plays heavily in sorc pet theme, an ability you cast on a primary target to burst it down, again 10s duration is perfect for it, because most of the boss fights these days have some sort of problematic add or a mini boss that you have to instantly focus as it spawns, having this ability at long duration just makes it weak and not flavorful.
Speaking about DoT durations, the standardization is just objectively bad. 20+ s durations should never be a thing, unless in some very specific cases (Carve morph, Elf Bane etc.) If you want to increase them then look at each class individually, DK = longer duration (12-14s tops), sorc = 10s tops (excluding of course skills like bound armaments, warden's lotus etc.).

Overall, I just cannot speak about U35 in a positive way in any way shape or form, this is probably the first time I was reading patch notes and couldn’t find any positive changes. It feels unfinished and poorly tested (if tested at all, it just seems the balance team just looked at dummy parses and just swung the hammer). But most importantly this U35 absolutely fails to deliver what it was designed to do – more accessibility. Endgame players would adapt no problem but they just don’t see the point when combat no longer feels fun, testing on PTS actually feels like you’re playing on some bootleg private server, and the less experienced and more casual players will be left completely in the dirt, gated from content they are currently capable of doing on live servers with absolutely no possibility of doing anything harder/more advanced.

Tannus15

a lot of the skills on live which are currently unbalanced compared to their counterparts, like twisting path, were buffed to a large degree because nightblades were so far behind on raw dps.
nerfing them now because of a spreadsheet will result in the same problem as before, so they have buffed surprise attack to a crazy level. now the only way to play a nightblade is surprise attack. mag, stam, doesn't matter, if you're not using surprise attack you're doing it wrong.

sorc is the same on live. crystal weapon is so much stronger than every other option, and if you're not running it you're doing it wrong. not it's getting nerfed so hard that if you ARE using it you're doing it wrong.

Minalan

My feedback is pretty simple: Start over with a whole new combat team.

adamsmith42

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin in case you aren't paying attention; "we might adjust some numbers for week 3 PTS" isn't cutting it:

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the plan is to get rid of the end game community, it's working excellently. Two of the top trial guilds on PC NA shut down this week. Many players are demotivated, and combat on PTS simply is not fun.

It's not just top end teams either... *both* of the raid leads for my two prog groups left the game... the kind of people you claim this is to help (been doing vet trials for maybe 2 months; the groups were around vMoL HM)

-and-

Pevey wrote: »

I know this thread is for feedback, but I think the feedback from pretty much every corner of the playerbase is overwhelming.

A lot of people don't bother to get ESO forum accounts, so the number of people providing feedback on the forum is admittedly somewhat small and potentially not representative of the community as a whole. But polls with thousands of responses from content creators come to the same conclusion about how players feel.

And I think that is a lot more important than gathering more numbers, at this point. Someone at ZOS needs to be looking at the bigger picture.

• Do these changes make the game more or less fun?
• Do players like them?
• Do they accomplish our stated goals?

The best thing ZOS could do as a crisis response is to (ASAP) make a statement to the playerbase along the lines of:

While we still believe in the vision of our stated goals, we have been listening to feedback, and we now can see clearly that the changes we proposed do not accomplish those goals. We are going to take the unprecedented step of reverting these combat changes to give us time to go back to the drawing board. We still believe in the goal of making content more accessible to a greater portion of the playerbase, but we understand now that these changes do the opposite and are a flawed approach. There are much better and much less disruptive ways that we can accomplish these goals.

If they did something like that, and they did it quickly, it could actually generate a lot of support from the community and maybe even turn this whole experience from a debacle to a somewhat positive thing. They could say, look, we do listen. And we did have a plan, these changes were not random. But they also WAY missed the mark, and we see that, and we see that minor adjustments are not the answer. We need to change the approach, and that will take some time.

Navras

After a few hours of testing what I've found really wrong is the dot ticking every 2 seconds instead of 1.

I would also rollback changes on dot duration because the gameplay is now quite boring, but dots on 2 seconds won't just be used on most content. They will be a dps loss compared to the spammable smashing.

keto3000

Ardriel wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

LACK of ACCESS to MYTHIC items for Base-Game-Only players = PAY-TO-WIN

Since we are discussing issues regarding OAKENSOUL, 1 Bar setups, & the push to "close the skill gap" between newer and veteran players, let's also discuss the P2W lack of in-game access to MYTHICS, in general.

After all, it is a business enterprise. You can't accuse them of wanting to make a profit and at the same time demand that the game is regularly maintained and updated. You should also consider that the subscription price has remained the same since release. The employees also want to earn something, which is perfectly legitimate.

I also think it's counterproductive to constantly accuse the developers of being "incompetent", "ignorant" and more, while complaining about a lack of or poor communication.
If I were them, I wouldn't want to say anything more....

I feel exactly the same as many other players here. After many years of invested time and money, the changes in this patch seem like a punishment for us. But it is really important that we remain as objective, factual and above all polite as possible. That is the ONLY way to be taken seriously.

There are many good and informative posts here that describe the problems of the patch in detail. I think someone should clearly summarise the most important points in a separate thread to inform the developers as effectively as possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I respect your opinions & appreciate your taking the time to read my post.

However, you COMPLETELY mischaracterized what I said. The rest of your response seems to be you airing your personal grievances, not mine.. They are not related to the contents of my post.

I like the overall 'rebalancing' approach the developers have taken over the last several patches. I believe that they are, in fact, fully aware of all these players' concerns here.

TO GET BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POST:

I am asking ZOS to consider making MYTHICS somehow available IN-GAME, similar to allowing Transmutes and Jewelry crafting to be accessible in some form to BASE_GAME_ONLY players.

I've been a (relatively) happy ESO+ subscribed customer and active community member since beta 2013.

However, many of my friends and new players that I've met are students, have fixed incomes, stretched budgets, etc and can only afford the BASE GAME. That's fine.

I completely support the current business model of our game. I'm interested in increased accessibility to game items that affect power, damage output and performance.

Cheers, keto

Mizael

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the combat changes in Update 35. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Light and Heavy Attacks
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • Do you feel like Light and Heavy Attacks still provide meaningful impact to your play experience after the adjustments? Please explain your reasoning.
• Damage over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Damage over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
  • While using Damage over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
• Healing over Time
  • Did you notice these adjustments on the PTS while playing?
    • If you did, was it better or worse in your experience?
    • What activities did you primarily feel the differences in, if any (parsing, dungeons, overland, dueling)? Please feel free to include before and after images of metrics on data, such as combat logs, to showcase your point.
  • After the balance changes, did you make changes to the amount of Healing over Time abilities your build utilized? Please explain any reasoning.
  • While using Healing over Time effects, did you notice any other impacts on your play experience?
  • How do you feel about the healing experience and its overall impact in your primary activities (PvP/Dungeons/Solo/Trials)? Has your sentiment changed based on these PTS adjustments?

1- Light attacks changes:
The difference in damage per second of L.A. compared to live is very noticiable, It dropped about 50-60% to me. Sure it felt worse but if the goal is making missing a light attack less impactful, I am KINDA ok but the issue remain that there are many best in slot sets that require light attacks and buffs them, so it won't solve the problem, and anyway lowering it so much will hurt mid-exp players the most, since missing only a few L.A. and getting the damage butchered so much, will lower their total damage of a lot, making them doing content much more difficult. I used CMX to see the difference.

2- Damage over Time:
This is one of the most worst changes in my opinion. Not only DoTs do less damage then live, but also make them much more diffucult to manage in a trial/dungeon scenario where you have a dynamic fight. This to a point that some DoTs won't even be worth slotting. Right now on live if you play many Dots and manage them consistantly, you get rewarder with much more dps, while on PTS you would gain a max of 10k considered a 100k parse. It feel very very unrewarding this way.

3- Healing over Time:
The most dumb change. Mobs will continue to hit over 1s or sell cosidered some dots, while our HoTs on 2s cd. It's gonna make doing content much much much harder, raising the level of gameplay required much higher, which was not what you wanted to do (I guess).

I very much ask to revert DoTs and HoTs changes, while adjusting L.A. and H.A. a little. This gameplay right now feels horrible.

Szende

keto3000 wrote: »

LACK of IN-GAME ACCESS to MYTHIC items for Base-Game-Only players

This makes the game PAY-TO-WIN for many Base-Game-Only players, which include fixed income players, students, those with heavy family expenses, lower incomes, etc....

Since we are discussing Accessibilty issues including OAKENSOUL, 1 Bar setups, & the push to "close the skill gap" between newer and veteran players in both PvE & PvP, let's also discuss the P2W lack of in-game access to MYTHICS, in general.

CONSIDER:

Clockwork City's exclusive access to Transmutation Station:

Access ALLOWED for Base-Game-Only players since they could use that station in other players' home & still be able to use earned their Transmute Crystals.


Summerset's exclusive access to the Jewelry Station:

Access ALLOWED for Base-Game-Only players since they could get jewelry crafted by another player who does have access.


HOWEVER:

Greymoor's exclusive access to Antiquities System & Mythics:

Access DENIED to MYTHIC ITEMS for Base-Game-Only players since LEADs cannot be acted upon, and, for players that have Greymoor and the Antiquities system, may still be DENIED since they cant access leads in un-owned DLCs, etc.[/b]


ZOS Please FIND A WAY: to allow in-game access to all MYTHIC ITEMS for Base-Game-Only players:

--A weekend vendor exclusive for MYTHIC items?

--Event tickets to earn fragments for specific Antiquity Leads (as an alternate path to digging) that are found, then later combined to form that MYTHIC?

--Earned vouchers redeemable at Rolis?


Thank you. in advance, for consideration.

Cheers, keto

To be fair, this issue i just cancelled ESO+. The game got way too many content/item behind another pay-wall it started to feel pay2win. It's sad.