ZOS, please explain why there are discussions ESO related posted on social media and not here first

TaSheen

EdmondDontes wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

The real bottom line is that developers of a game have a vision for that game - and in my experience they generally do not move outside their vision.

Players think devs make games for players - that's not really the actuality. Devs make games the way they want to see them - and of course also to make money for the investor(s). As well, they have to toe a line - if they want to be retained and make good (or not so) money, they have to at least give lip service to the suits.

No one puts millions of dollars into developing a game like this one to "make players happy". As long as some players are happy, and the churn provides new players at a rate that keeps the investors happy, that's the actual bottom line. Yes, that's a pretty jaundiced viewpoint - but I think it's also pretty spot on.

It's not just ESO. I've played many games - and IIRC, this is how all of them worked, at least the MMOs. Single player games are a little different but you only have to look at Skyrim to see the money trail....

ZOS doesn't have investors or a board of directors anymore. All that went away when MS bought them out.

I was not specifying ZOS - I was speaking generally about many of the games I've played since the late 80s, and their developers. I'm aware that ZOS no longer has investors.

Kiralyn2000

Mascen wrote: »

What you call toxic elitism i call healthy gatekeeping.

Reasonably certain there's no such thing.


----
Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Lambert's tweet - it totally fit what I saw on the forum (and have seen many times before) - some small notes about future things come out, and without even learning (or waiting for) details, the forum is deluged in knee-jerk "OMG DOOOOOOOOM" posts.

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

BretonMage wrote: »

Regarding the tweet itself... I hope at some level they realise that we're just exhausted with all the constant nerfs.

The interesting thing about the "constant nerfs" is how over the years 'good DPS' has grown from 30k to 80-100k+. Yes, those 'constant nerfs' are clearly working.

Agenericname

AoEnwyr wrote: »

Because as crappy as social media can be, a lot of people feel the same about game forums being breeding grounds for toxic elitism. The forums also only reach players who are already engaged with the game, not those that might be on the fence or looking for something new to play.

If thats the case, I would advise some re-evaluation, because he just told the "fence sitters" that he considers his customers criticisms excessive and whining. While its probably true, its not exactly inspiring. He also told them that there is a trust issue.

If I were looking for a new game and saw this type of discord between the players and the devs I'd probably more skeptical about going in on it.

Elsonso

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

What you call toxic elitism i call healthy gatekeeping.

Reasonably certain there's no such thing.


----
Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Lambert's tweet - it totally fit what I saw on the forum (and have seen many times before) - some small notes about future things come out, and without even learning (or waiting for) details, the forum is deluged in knee-jerk "OMG DOOOOOOOOM" posts.

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

No, there was nothing wrong with the text of that Tweet. The problem with the Tweet isn't the content, it is who posted it. Yes, some people in a similar position can successfully pull off the snarky comment, but not this particular person in their particular position at one particular game studio. The overall relationship with the community is not strong enough for that.

My suggestion is that he work on building that relationship; be mindful of what he says and be more informational and less critical. He has proven he can handle the heat, so I know he can handle it if he wants to do it.

FluffyBird

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Lambert's tweet - it totally fit what I saw on the forum (and have seen many times before) - some small notes about future things come out, and without even learning (or waiting for) details, the forum is deluged in knee-jerk "OMG DOOOOOOOOM" posts.

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

If memory serves, Mr. Lambert is the one with the "you don't have to be here" attitude, which is, IMHO, is the most healthy attitude for this industry. Devs have their vision of their product, they follow it, those who like what they make can enjoy the game, those who don't - they really can find something else to play.

(Will I still complain when I don't like something? Absolutely)
(Also it's a shame that community seems to have bullied Rich off of Twitch. I enjoyed that couple of streams I managed to catch)

Katheriah

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

Warframe does it wel. The devs genuinely enjoy what they're doing, are proud of what they're making and you actually see that in their dev streams. They love what they do, they love what they made, they love their fans.

It's possible to just show respect back and forth. Knee-jerk reactions don't come out of the blue. We too are here because we love the game. We (players and devs) should all be 'on the same side', but yet it doesn't often feel like we are.

There is obviously a lack of trust. Let's not pretend that just fell out of the sky unexpectedly.

Elsonso

FluffyBird wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Lambert's tweet - it totally fit what I saw on the forum (and have seen many times before) - some small notes about future things come out, and without even learning (or waiting for) details, the forum is deluged in knee-jerk "OMG DOOOOOOOOM" posts.

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

If memory serves, Mr. Lambert is the one with the "you don't have to be here" attitude, which is, IMHO, is the most healthy attitude for this industry. Devs have their vision of their product, they follow it, those who like what they make can enjoy the game, those who don't - they really can find something else to play.

(Will I still complain when I don't like something? Absolutely)
(Also it's a shame that community seems to have bullied Rich off of Twitch. I enjoyed that couple of streams I managed to catch)

That is part of the problem he has, and has had for a long time, with his relationship with the community. The "you don't have to be here" is usually quoted out of context. His standing and position does not allow him the freedom to say things like that without making things worse, even if the context of the original quote has some measure of justification.

Cadbury

Twitter in general seems to have an effect on people in general, not just game devs. Sometimes someone is bold enough to make a hot take regardless of how it may be interpreted, and the backlash is swift and vicious.

I'm not condoning it, but it's not surprising nowadays.

So I can understand a person's hesitancy when ESO decides to post on other media platforms before their own forums. People will feel they are out of the loop of information.

Lebkuchen

Where did all the media, journalism and communication studies students go? A few years ago it felt like ever seconds student was in a bachelor’s programme, but somehow a lot of companies have massive problems with communication. How is this possible?

blktauna

Honestly, what is so hard about crossposting? I do not want to hunt all over various social media platforms to get official info. There should be an official feed on their site. Post wherever but it should also show up on their site in an organised fashion.

Rich is whinging about trust here... please let me know how they've earned any. I've noticed that for the most part, when there's a lot of player pushback for a change that is implemented despite the pushback, its usually a big mess. (dot meta, the last time they altered light heavy attack mechanics, well the last two times anyways, the whole achievements thing)

Their ceiling position is nonsense as well. Some folks literally dont care about 'end game' trials etc. They want to do what they want to do and they are perfectly entitled to do that. If you want to level up, there is no in game education on how anything in combat works. No info on buffs, weaving, what the info in passives actually mean. You have to realise there are content creators and/or guilds and find one that suits you to learn about it. I mean there's not even any real consensus on the order of operation on effects application or how damage is actually calculated and the devs simply don't answer questions about it. Not trust inspiring.

We don't even have an official list of what works in no-proc pvp. Without the community there's be no list at all, even after repeated requests for official word. Not trust inspiring.

If this dev team has a vision, i'd love to know what it is because its all over the place and they refuse to say what their goals are. Nothing here to inspire trust.

What's the saying, 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.'
We've been fooled far more that once

Elsonso

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Where did all the media, journalism and communication studies students go? A few years ago it felt like ever seconds student was in a bachelor’s programme, but somehow a lot of companies have massive problems with communication.

ZOS hired Kevin the Forum Manager, which was a step in the right direction.

spartaxoxo

Agenericname wrote: »

AoEnwyr wrote: »

Because as crappy as social media can be, a lot of people feel the same about game forums being breeding grounds for toxic elitism. The forums also only reach players who are already engaged with the game, not those that might be on the fence or looking for something new to play.

If thats the case, I would advise some re-evaluation, because he just told the "fence sitters" that he considers his customers criticisms excessive and whining. While its probably true, its not exactly inspiring. He also told them that there is a trust issue.

If I were looking for a new game and saw this type of discord between the players and the devs I'd probably more skeptical about going in on it.

I didn't read it as saying it's excessive and whining. I think the disappointment is from people assuming the worst possible outcome without seeing the change yet. It's not that it's negative, it's that he wants people to trust the team enough to wait to see the numbers. It's basically a sign his community doesn't trust him. And he is right, it doesn't. But that's on them (the devs) not the community.

NeeScrolls

peacenote wrote: »

Vocal minority? Over 90 pages of feedback about AwA, plus the open sticky about the map/tracking issues with no comment, and that's a "minority?"

Yes , because most players don't even read the Launcher much less these forums.

They just click 'PLAY' and maybe ask a question or 2 in-game genchat. Maybe.

It's been like this since the beginning of MMORPG's ....and probably since beginning of the interwebs.

That's because most players---heck, most people---just wanna go about their day (life) playing the game enjoying themselves without any conflict nor any "debate" . Hence the term: Silent majority.

VaranisArano

Katheriah wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

Warframe does it wel. The devs genuinely enjoy what they're doing, are proud of what they're making and you actually see that in their dev streams. They love what they do, they love what they made, they love their fans.

It's possible to just show respect back and forth. Knee-jerk reactions don't come out of the blue. We too are here because we love the game. We (players and devs) should all be 'on the same side', but yet it doesn't often feel like we are.

There is obviously a lack of trust. Let's not pretend that just fell out of the sky unexpectedly.

I'll say this for DE: Angels of the Zariman was a terribly bugged and pretty unbalanced update that really showed their lack of quality playtesting before release...and in the days and weeks since April, they've patched and rebalanced nearly every major part of the update to improve gameplay. Three months later, the combat changes they introduced to "Spoiler Mode" and the Eximus (miniboss) enemies are in a much better place than on release.

In ESO, however, we can pretty reliably extrapolate from past updates that whatever is on the last couple PTS cycles is going Live, and that whatever goes Live won't be touched until the next quarterly update. If something's unbalanced, it will be for the next three months.

Now, caveats apply. Warframe has Vertical Progression, effectively dead PVP, and a lot of power creep. ESO is primarily Horizontal Progression, PVP and PVE balanced together, and has to periodically nerf back power creep. They are very different games. And it's not like DE doesn't leave things broken for years (they do; we don't call it "Bugframe" for no reason) and ZOS never ever fixes unbalanced things through hot fixes (they do).


But on the whole, my experience is that even when combat changes clearly aren't meeting their stated goals, ZOS likes to give players three months to adjust to combat changes before they shake the snow globe again. DE, in contrast, is more likely to change things quickly until they meet their goals and then move on to new content.

I like both games, to be clear. It's just a totally different style of game development.

FeedbackOnly

It's hard to keep track of things but I found this place track everything including social media easier in their news section

https://discord.gg/VwGTQdfBkx

You can just mute the other sections

Ragnarok0130

The reason IMO is like I've seen in other games. The devs are paid to do dev stuff while at work and not community management stuff. If they're posting on their personal time on twitter on their personal account it's a gray area whereas anything they post on the official forums under a dev account would be "official work" and on company time taking away from dev time.

Now I think it would be wise to designate one or two senior devs to officially communicate/interact on the forums, however there is a risk that the interaction wouldn't be positive and with some of the controversial changes quite negative which would naturally incentivize them to not interact on the forums. I've seen this very thing happen in other games and then the dev interaction dries up completely outside of Twitter.

The devs also get spammed on the forums too so they do get overloaded with community interactions.

KMarble

Jaimeh wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Probably because they value twitter more than their own forum. There are a lot of things that could be said here but this is honestly a can of worms that's better left unopened.

I suppose because their account on twitter is for expressing views that are their own, regardless of their place in a company, so they feel it's more appropriate there, and also maybe they believe can get more validation for their statement on twitter than in the forums. Having said that I do think it's a bit awkward dissing your own playerbase.

Imagine if a dentist who makes sure people know they're a dentist on their Twitter profile posted something along the lines of "I'm tired of holding my breath when patients open their mouths".

This dentist is expressing a view of their own, and chances are that some of their patients will have bad breath/smell coming out of their mouths. Still, it's a bad take to shout something like that into the void that is the internet.

Venting is something you do when talking to family, friends or a therapist. In private. Doing so in a public space will hurt your business (and how people perceive you).

ZOS_Kevin

Hey All, just wanted to chime in here. While it would be great to share 100% of the conversations on the forum and social, sometimes that isn't possible. We do work hard to get most information shared on the ESO official socials to the forum as well. If other ZOS staff chat about issues on their personal social accounts, that does not mean it will make it's way to the forum in a formal capacity. This is just the nature of the beast, but we will be more vigilant and try to get more of these conversations on the forum in some way.

However, we encourage everyone to bring those conversations to the forum as you come across them as well.

Lastly, we are working on ways to have more dev communication on the forum as well. We'll have some announcements related to that in the future, as those plans are in progress.

TaSheen

Thanks @ZOS_Kevin - I'm one of those who doesn't use social media (outside of forums, kind of the original social media after all), so it's nice to hear that things may change a bit for the better with regard to posting information here.

I do read many posts here daily, so sometimes see extracts from Twitter, FB, etc. but I will certainly appreciate finding most of the information here.

Arrodisia

I dislike social media. As much as I love RL pets I don't want or need to know who's pets ate tuna for lunch or if Dan's loose bowels are acting up again.

I have absolutely no interest to join a social networking website and have to sift through tons of unrelated banter when we have an official forum for ESO information and discussions. When I want to talk to friends we go to each other's homes and call each other. I get enough banter at work as well.

This is only a minor suggestion. Maybe if there was a protocol to release all information to the forums 1st and then if there's is extra time and man power the information can also be released to other platforms as well.

Thanks for sharing information though @ZOS_Kevin

Have fun all

Destai

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey All, just wanted to chime in here. While it would be great to share 100% of the conversations on the forum and social, sometimes that isn't possible. We do work hard to get most information shared on the ESO official socials to the forum as well. If other ZOS staff chat about issues on their personal social accounts, that does not mean it will make it's way to the forum in a formal capacity. This is just the nature of the beast, but we will be more vigilant and try to get more of these conversations on the forum in some way.

However, we encourage everyone to bring those conversations to the forum as you come across them as well.

Lastly, we are working on ways to have more dev communication on the forum as well. We'll have some announcements related to that in the future, as those plans are in progress.

This is what you and the other ZOS reps always say, but what actions are actually being taken? We've heard "we are working on ways" for quite some time now. I don't see anything changing, so please - enlighten us. I think that alone would stem the tide of regular "improve communication please" threads.

Feels like we're expected to monitor ZOS on their social media, and then beg for that discussion to come here, rather than industry professionals knowing they should engage their playerbase on their official forums. Reminds me of the last time ZOS said "we're exploring ways to communicate with you".

No one would be upset about any social media posts if they treated this forum with even half the attention that Twitter gets. Maybe if we had less snark, there wouldn't be so much uproar. Again.

This shouldn't be so hard. Developers should answer questions instead of posting one thing about combat changes and then disappearing from that thread. I don't know what there is to figure out.

I did appreciate the live Q&A and was happy that the CMs organized it. It did highlight some major deficits in how they get our feedback though. Hard data was called out as the ideal and players have to purchase the chapter to test it out. Of course this leaves out console players, this leaves out players who aren't aware that they need to buy it, the list goes on.

Dr_Con

I would like to see more utilization of the launcher for important updates/announcements! The forum is a place for community to discuss things, so anything mentioned anywhere can have a topic made here to discuss it!

Maybe give us the option to opt-in to specific notifications through the launcher? That way you can tie-in twitter posts, facebook posts, myspace alerts, instagram posts, forum posts, etc. I feel like putting important notifications through the launcher in this manner would be a proper use of resources to address the concern.

Other than this, I hope whoever is at ZOS takes this thread with a grain of salt... don't be too hard on the employees and their announcement patterns, you'll find that complaints will lead to the company's attempts at reconciling slowing things down and leading to unnecessary disciplinary action to employees.

Erissime

What is this whole nonsense about again? I get an official eso forum announcement in my discord which drives me here which reads a complaint about some personal tweet of some dev regarding upcoming changes already announced 2 or 3 days before that tweet in here.

What is that tweet about? As shown above - no important news about eso

So how is this even normal? Taking some personal tweet, spreading it in here while whining about it being super important when it is ... not?

I don't care what people think about upcoming changes. Heck I don't care what devs think about what people think about who says what/when/where/why/at a specific time.

But get your stories straight for once! it is THIS thread which baits one into thinking something huge has happend and it is THIS thread which wastes one's time with ... nothing.

The ONLY important thing I care to know about (as part of that "silent majority") is this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview?utm_medium=social&utm_source=discord&utm_campaign=dwemer_automaton (which for some reason upon checking leads else where - oh well I wished to share the official annoucement of update 35 with all its combat changes as written by Gina Brunno in these forums)

Why must I be "ringed" by forums with threads of this nonsensical nature? By all means whoever started this thread should go themselves on twitter and knock their heads with that of the dev who dared share a personal opinion on a personal channel about something already known . So much for "using the official forums for official stuff".

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SlashLurk/status/1545786200342110209?s=20&t=SsOFrubXsm3_DGDbhgqEuQ

BTW here's the tweet itself if anyone wants to see it.

Hmm...

I think Rich has to calm down with his personal phrasing. It doesn't look good for anyone concerned.

Destai

Erissime wrote: »

What is this whole nonsense about again? I get an official eso forum announcement in my discord which drives me here which reads a complaint about some personal tweet of some dev regarding upcoming changes already announced 2 or 3 days before that tweet in here.

What is that tweet about? As shown above - no important news about eso

So how is this even normal? Taking some personal tweet, spreading it in here while whining about it being super important when it is ... not?

I don't care what people think about upcoming changes. Heck I don't care what devs think about what people think about who says what/when/where/why/at a specific time.

But get your stories straight for once! it is THIS thread which baits one into thinking something huge has happend and it is THIS thread which wastes one's time with ... nothing.

The ONLY important thing I care to know about (as part of that "silent majority") is this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview?utm_medium=social&utm_source=discord&utm_campaign=dwemer_automaton (which for some reason upon checking leads else where - oh well I wished to share the official annoucement of update 35 with all its combat changes as written by Gina Brunno in these forums)

Why must I be "ringed" by forums with threads of this nonsensical nature? By all means whoever started this thread should go themselves on twitter and knock their heads with that of the dev who dared share a personal opinion on a personal channel about something already known . So much for "using the official forums for official stuff".

I believe a lot of the uproar was around the tone taken by Rich on his tweet about in-game content. It's not like people are complaining about his sports or something; it's about yet another example of him taking the wrong tone on a contentious change.

Mascen

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

What you call toxic elitism i call healthy gatekeeping.

Reasonably certain there's no such thing.


----
Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Lambert's tweet - it totally fit what I saw on the forum (and have seen many times before) - some small notes about future things come out, and without even learning (or waiting for) details, the forum is deluged in knee-jerk "OMG DOOOOOOOOM" posts.

I honestly can't imagine being a dev in this modern era - the horrible interactions with "fans" would drive me from the business (and humanity in general) very quickly.

BretonMage wrote: »

Regarding the tweet itself... I hope at some level they realise that we're just exhausted with all the constant nerfs.

The interesting thing about the "constant nerfs" is how over the years 'good DPS' has grown from 30k to 80-100k+. Yes, those 'constant nerfs' are clearly working.

Reasonably, there is. Games Workshop of Warhammer and 40k are a perfect example. Recently they firmly reiterated that only men can become space marines which drew some social media ire but pleased the core fan base. Changing to appease the internet mob only serves to alienate the core customer/fan base. As such standards must be set to retain the core identity.

FluffWit

@ZOS_RichLambert

Hows Tales of Trobute working out? Do you regret assigning so many of the teams resources to it over the course of the last year?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey All, just wanted to chime in here. While it would be great to share 100% of the conversations on the forum and social, sometimes that isn't possible. We do work hard to get most information shared on the ESO official socials to the forum as well. If other ZOS staff chat about issues on their personal social accounts, that does not mean it will make it's way to the forum in a formal capacity. This is just the nature of the beast, but we will be more vigilant and try to get more of these conversations on the forum in some way.

However, we encourage everyone to bring those conversations to the forum as you come across them as well.

Lastly, we are working on ways to have more dev communication on the forum as well. We'll have some announcements related to that in the future, as those plans are in progress.

"While it would be great to share 100% of the conversations on the forums and social, sometimes that isnt possible"

We dont want them to "share" conversations. We want them to actually HAVE conversations. With their customers, not each other. They never reply directly to anyone here. They certainly dont attempt to have any kind of back and forth.

Just look at the most important forum we have- the pts. It receives virtually ZERO direct developer feedback, even when major problems with upcoming releases are bought up to try and help the team.

sPark101

I have noticed this as well. across many MMORG games. They seem to view us as irrelevant and only post to their friends.

Agenericname

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

AoEnwyr wrote: »

Because as crappy as social media can be, a lot of people feel the same about game forums being breeding grounds for toxic elitism. The forums also only reach players who are already engaged with the game, not those that might be on the fence or looking for something new to play.

If thats the case, I would advise some re-evaluation, because he just told the "fence sitters" that he considers his customers criticisms excessive and whining. While its probably true, its not exactly inspiring. He also told them that there is a trust issue.

If I were looking for a new game and saw this type of discord between the players and the devs I'd probably more skeptical about going in on it.

I didn't read it as saying it's excessive and whining. I think the disappointment is from people assuming the worst possible outcome without seeing the change yet. It's not that it's negative, it's that he wants people to trust the team enough to wait to see the numbers. It's basically a sign his community doesn't trust him. And he is right, it doesn't. But that's on them (the devs) not the community.

I think he focused on the "worst possible outcome" part. Quite a bit of the feedback isnt at all a "the world is ending" message. Yet there is still valid criticism that isnt overly negative or acknowledged, and rolled up into that one statement.

Yes, the trust issue is on them. I dont think that using an external media source to convey that message sows the seeds of trust either.

That said, I wouldn't have known it existed, or probably cared, if it hadnt have been posted here. I still dont think I care all that much. Its a game.

shadyjane62

Well that explains why things are a complete mystery to me when they are obvious to everyone else. I do not indulge in any social media as I feel it untruthful, hateful and total nonsense.

If that's where they are posting information on ESO I don't see it.

I was foolish enough to think these forums had a real purpose.