SilverBride wrote: »If it was the actual companion that fights along side us and interacts with us I would personally find it disturbing to put them in tortuous situations. But the houseguest versions of our companions are nothing more than furnishings
They still talk and walk around, so I personally don't see a big difference, but people may view that differently. The big question really is why people even get the idea to put them in a torture room. It seems to be common with companions, but there aren't masses of players who, for example, build pyres and burn mammoths on them or throw sep vipers inside boiling soup kettles. Well, of course there's no reason for that, too, but why would you do that to companions?
This probably goes back to what we discussed earlier in this thread. That Isobel is more popular than Bastian and much less popular than Ember (she's even less popular than Mirri) suggests to me that both rapport mechanics and societal attitudes may be involved.Treselegant wrote: »If it was just about the gameplay mechanic, I would expect Isobel to receive the same reception as Bastian when it comes to morality rapport. Since they both dislike murder and theft.
I actually waited to see if this would happen when High Isle released. Strangely enough there hasn't been much of a reaction beyond a few silly posts about her face.
spartaxoxo wrote: »You see, that's where the rage for these companions come; They eliminate mechanics from your gameplay with their poorly planned raport.
If that's all it was to it, people would hate Isobel and Bastian equally and they do not. There is also the cultural lense in which they view these characters. As well, as the sense of immersion a player has. But Bastian doesn't like murder because he thinks it's wrong. And the player feels judged as a result. Isobel doesn't like it because knights aren't supposed to, so she doesn't interfere with anyone's headcanon that their character is the good guy hero.
Also none of the companions eliminate gameplay. The rapport they lose is triflingly easy to restore. And you can always stow them in activities they are not compatible with. It's not like you need a companion to go on a murder spree. They don't add anything to that activity and have a cooldown on rapport loss.
To say characters shouldn't react believably in an RPG, or it's poor design just doesn't make sense to me either.
What I say it's bad design is the fact that, yes, it does remove mechanics if you want to use that companion. Period.
Am I gonna store Mirri back EVERY time I find a butterfly? Yeah, not happening, that's annoying design for no reason, and thus it's bad.
They lose literally 1 rapport if you do something they merely dislike. And they gain it back extremely quickly. Companion rapport is primarily changed through extensive activity, they aren't going to significantly change their opinion of you because you did something they disliked here and there.
And yes, there does have to be a balance between gameplay and believability. People paid money to quest with Bastian and Mirri, so while they have likes and dislikes to make them act believably in an RPG setting, they aren't going to be the same as a real life person. Belief in fiction is not like real life anyway.
Nightowl_74 wrote: »I think if they were real people...
Treselegant wrote: »As a crafter doing my crafting dailies I might see a cheese recipe maybe once a week and maybe a comment about it once every couple of weeks even at max comment frequency - it has no effect on my gameplay.
It doesn't justify any hatred, but his dislike for cheese is a bit weird though, isn't it? I mean, he even says it's only because of his lactose intolerance, but why would he even bother, as he's not forced to eat it? I have several food allergies irl and I have no clue why I would be bothered about other people's food.
[snip]
spartaxoxo wrote: »One thing I think they could do is make more clear that cooking with a companion means you're likely to feed them.
SilverBride wrote: »The question is which companion do we feel has the best personality. This is subjective and will be different for every player. There are no right or wrong answers.
The reasons we feel the way we do are our own reasons. It is not wrong for someone to say they don't like Bastian because they lose rapport for provisioning a recipe that contains cheese. It doesn't matter if they only lose 1 rapport or 100, to them this is a negative and a valid reason they don't like him.
MasterSpatula wrote: »Bastian is a stick in the mud.
Mirri seems alright compared to Bastian, but I'd pretty much had it up to here with all the passive aggressive "I'm still here (thanks for asking)" comments and the nagging me about killing bugs that aren't even dead yet.
Honestly, Ember and Isobel are both delights. ZOS really seems to have learned from mistakes here.
What makes the big difference between Bastian and Isobel? Just wondering.
MasterSpatula wrote: »Imagine two people get on your case for theft. One yells at you, "Stealing is wrong." The other asks you, "How would you feel if someone took your stuff?" There's your difference right there. One is born of self-righteousness, in the end more a form of ego than of morality. The other comes from compassion, a genuine desire to do good for the benefit of all.
spartaxoxo wrote: »For example, it's interesting to me that people some people prefer Isobel because she's indirect.
MasterSpatula wrote: »MasterSpatula wrote: »Bastian is a stick in the mud.
Mirri seems alright compared to Bastian, but I'd pretty much had it up to here with all the passive aggressive "I'm still here (thanks for asking)" comments and the nagging me about killing bugs that aren't even dead yet.
Honestly, Ember and Isobel are both delights. ZOS really seems to have learned from mistakes here.
What makes the big difference between Bastian and Isobel? Just wondering.
Not all "lawful good" is the same.
Imagine two people get on your case for theft. One yells at you, "Stealing is wrong." The other asks you, "How would you feel if someone took your stuff?"
There's your difference right there. One is born of self-righteousness, in the end more a form of ego than of morality. The other comes from compassion, a genuine desire to do good for the benefit of all. I leave it to you to figure out which traits I assign to Bastian and which to Isobel, but I think it's pretty obvious.
spartaxoxo wrote: »For example, it's interesting to me that people some people prefer Isobel because she's indirect.
I haven't had her with me that often so far, but I have the impression that she's generally friendly and has a tendency to praise the player a lot, no matter if it's after a fight, while collecting crafting materials or even during blacksmithing. I mean, she has a lot of lines like:
"You're like the hero of a fantastic tale."
" I didn't think you could get more powerful."
"I admire your technique."
Mirri has a few too, yes, but she's not that easily impressed.
spartaxoxo wrote: »So in order from most to least amount of compliments, it is: Ember, Isobel, Mirri, and then Bastian. Incidentally, this is also the order of the poll of most to least favorite. I'm sure this plays a part in things too, lol. They are more positive.
When I see the result of this poll, I feel sorry for poor Bastian, my favorite. Do people really only find Ember so great because you can steal and kill with her without getting negative rapport? I personally find Ember annoying and Bastian's calm, dreamy personality suits my main much better as a companion (and also my person). If I want/have to steal or murder, then I integrate that into the role-playing - then I just have to pursue a few "secret" things for a while and Basti has to do other things in the meantime.
SilverBride wrote: »I feel bad for Bastian too, but probably for different reasons. I feel bad that they made him homely and goody two shoes and bossy, which is one of my biggest complaints about him. I get tired of being told to get out of that and shake it off and drink a potion and use a different strategy. He's supposed to be my companion, not my boss.
SilverBride wrote: »I feel bad for Bastian too, but probably for different reasons. I feel bad that they made him homely and goody two shoes and bossy, which is one of my biggest complaints about him. I get tired of being told to get out of that and shake it off and drink a potion and use a different strategy. He's supposed to be my companion, not my boss.
I don't see this as a command, but as a good advice from a friend. After all, he also asks you nicely if you're hurt, if you're okay. Isn't that nice?
spartaxoxo wrote: »He's reacting to you being in danger. He's not ordering anyone around, he's giving advice because you're dying. Also you can set the frequency in your settings. There should probably be a way to change whether they offer tutorial advice. Anyway, the reason it's unsolicited is because you're literally dying in combat.
Like I'm having a hard time understanding how you'd even solicit advice in combat. Or why a character who's supposed to be our friend is being bossy because they see us literally dying, knows what to do help, and thus says something
SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »He's reacting to you being in danger. He's not ordering anyone around, he's giving advice because you're dying. Also you can set the frequency in your settings. There should probably be a way to change whether they offer tutorial advice. Anyway, the reason it's unsolicited is because you're literally dying in combat.
Like I'm having a hard time understanding how you'd even solicit advice in combat. Or why a character who's supposed to be our friend is being bossy because they see us literally dying, knows what to do help, and thus says something
This is just how I personally perceive it and the biggest reason I don't like him.