Just allow RNG W/L, since that is all ToT is anyway

Hawkeye

This is nothing more than some haters trying to get the game shut down. The game does take skill. The game is fun. If you set down and try to learn it you may think differently. It has RNG for sure but you still can win if you know what you are doing.
This is starting to get to be like the whole Oakensoul ring ranting. You have a bunch of PVP players crying that it is to op. Instead of looking at the build they use and seeing why it is not as good as it was before the ring came out. It is just easier to come on the forums and cry foul then to do some due diligence. There is nothing wrong with the game, the rng GIVES you a chance to win in the case you are playing someone who might be much better then you. Maybe look at it that way.

bzz86

Hawkeye wrote: »

This is nothing more than some haters trying to get the game shut down. The game does take skill. The game is fun. If you set down and try to learn it you may think differently. It has RNG for sure but you still can win if you know what you are doing.
This is starting to get to be like the whole Oakensoul ring ranting. You have a bunch of PVP players crying that it is to op. Instead of looking at the build they use and seeing why it is not as good as it was before the ring came out. It is just easier to come on the forums and cry foul then to do some due diligence. There is nothing wrong with the game, the rng GIVES you a chance to win in the case you are playing someone who might be much better then you. Maybe look at it that way.

You have explained exactly why people dont like Tot. Well done. Also you say haters come here to complain but the same can be said about fun boys trying to explain why the game is great.

FlopsyPrince

Hawkeye wrote: »

This is nothing more than some haters trying to get the game shut down. The game does take skill. The game is fun. If you set down and try to learn it you may think differently. It has RNG for sure but you still can win if you know what you are doing.
This is starting to get to be like the whole Oakensoul ring ranting. You have a bunch of PVP players crying that it is to op. Instead of looking at the build they use and seeing why it is not as good as it was before the ring came out. It is just easier to come on the forums and cry foul then to do some due diligence. There is nothing wrong with the game, the rng GIVES you a chance to win in the case you are playing someone who might be much better then you. Maybe look at it that way.

No, it is a lot of us unhappy that dev time was wasted on this instead of other things we believe would have fit better.

It also clearly is very luck driven and has quite a few bugs, including one unspecified exploit that was patched.

The only thing really irking me now is that they have put valuable motifs behind this wall.

It is also not clear what you mean be "get the game shut down". I don't see anyone arguing to shut down ESO, nor even ToT at this time, just that ToT sucks.

Rouz

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

...

I suspect they went with ToT because they wanted something "new" in the game. Sadly for MMOs at this point in their lives have reached "maximum capacity. So to speak. The engine and foundation of the game has reached what it can accomplish. It's why when you see MMOs this old, it's the same type of releases every major expansion/DLC. There's just too much limitations to do anything "big". ESO is also a weird MMORPG where they have a sizable amount of players who don't have an interest in the traditional MMORPG endgame like pvp, instanced stuff, etc. So its like what can they release? They have their yearly releases which covers all the bases of what players like. An open world zone or two, some dungeons, some raids, and corresponding rewards. Anything beyond that takes a lot of development resources I imagine. So they still need something "new" to call this a true expansion. A class, companion system, new crafting, new mini game, etc.

ToT can be enjoyable. I'm mainly upset that they decided to jump straight into competitiveness without letting things settle and observing the balance. When you do competitive PvP stuff, this is the kind of rage discontent that you will see. Especially if the meta is "cheesy" or the game itself can be frustrating.

FlopsyPrince

Rouz wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

...

I suspect they went with ToT because they wanted something "new" in the game. Sadly for MMOs at this point in their lives have reached "maximum capacity. So to speak. The engine and foundation of the game has reached what it can accomplish. It's why when you see MMOs this old, it's the same type of releases every major expansion/DLC. There's just too much limitations to do anything "big". ESO is also a weird MMORPG where they have a sizable amount of players who don't have an interest in the traditional MMORPG endgame like pvp, instanced stuff, etc. So its like what can they release? They have their yearly releases which covers all the bases of what players like. An open world zone or two, some dungeons, some raids, and corresponding rewards. Anything beyond that takes a lot of development resources I imagine. So they still need something "new" to call this a true expansion. A class, companion system, new crafting, new mini game, etc.

ToT can be enjoyable. I'm mainly upset that they decided to jump straight into competitiveness without letting things settle and observing the balance. When you do competitive PvP stuff, this is the kind of rage discontent that you will see. Especially if the meta is "cheesy" or the game itself can be frustrating.

It may be true, but it seems "forced" overall.

The PvP stuff is very true. Normal Cyrodiil or IC PvP is geared toward the unskilled like me making the ganking fun for the more experienced (or simply nasty) characters. I can't even play with those who suck like I do. Common issues across many games of course, but annoying. It looks like that is the case here from what I have read in threads. I can't even get with it against the 2nd (or was it 3rd?) NPC, so I am definitely not ready to be fodder for a true "player".

fizzylu

Rouz wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

...

I suspect they went with ToT because they wanted something "new" in the game. Sadly for MMOs at this point in their lives have reached "maximum capacity. So to speak. The engine and foundation of the game has reached what it can accomplish. It's why when you see MMOs this old, it's the same type of releases every major expansion/DLC. There's just too much limitations to do anything "big". ESO is also a weird MMORPG where they have a sizable amount of players who don't have an interest in the traditional MMORPG endgame like pvp, instanced stuff, etc. So its like what can they release? They have their yearly releases which covers all the bases of what players like. An open world zone or two, some dungeons, some raids, and corresponding rewards. Anything beyond that takes a lot of development resources I imagine. So they still need something "new" to call this a true expansion. A class, companion system, new crafting, new mini game, etc.

ToT can be enjoyable. I'm mainly upset that they decided to jump straight into competitiveness without letting things settle and observing the balance. When you do competitive PvP stuff, this is the kind of rage discontent that you will see. Especially if the meta is "cheesy" or the game itself can be frustrating.

That first part is so not true. ZOS just refuses to really improve the game to handle "bigger" things and "new" isn't always necessary either. Lots that's already in ESO could be expanded upon or just updated to feel more modern. WoW is way older than ESO and has had so many updates to improve the life and feel of the game. More character customization, more outfitting options, new animations/spell effects, completely reworked models/textures, and so much more. ZOS either just doesn't think to do anything like that or refuses to put the work and money into it. They could also easily do something like expanding upon skill lines like the Mages Guild, Dark Brotherhood and etc.... but nope. How about more staff options other than one healing and one DPS? There is so much they could do, they just don't. Instead, they come up with some overly intricate card game that feels like the biggest time waster ever.
That second part, I also have to disagree. The yearly releases cover all the bases???? haha I mean, if you call a miniscule zone or two and a short quest line with a plethora of RNG loot boxes that are the reward for all of the very repetitive content "covered" then.... I guess, but agree to disagree.

ToT is definitely frustrating though. I expected a simple card game with cool and diverse rewards like antiquities. Instead I get 20 minute long games of boring nonsense and a loot box of junk. Cool. I thought I would at least level the ranks for the achievement rewards they very evilly locked behind a long grind, you know, since most people will probably never touch the card game again once getting them.... but I can't even begin to find the patience to do that.

Parasaurolophus

RNG is definitely what makes ToT very boring for me. I had never played CCG before and at first I was afraid of ToT. But my friend explained to me all the pros of the game and I liked it, really! But over time, I found that the RNG ruled the game. Who managed to take the red and purple cards, he won. I no longer have the desire to continue playing ranked games. I will close the achievement for 30 quests and finish on this. Let the balance reign.

FlopsyPrince

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RNG is definitely what makes ToT very boring for me. I had never played CCG before and at first I was afraid of ToT. But my friend explained to me all the pros of the game and I liked it, really! But over time, I found that the RNG ruled the game. Who managed to take the red and purple cards, he won. I no longer have the desire to continue playing ranked games. I will close the achievement for 30 quests and finish on this. Let the balance reign.

Wait until something valuable in the game as a whole is put behind winning a bunch of PvP matches in the game!

EF321

Hand vs what's left in the deck:


Wish I had "the skill" to pull of crow combo...

fizzylu

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

RNG is definitely what makes ToT very boring for me. I had never played CCG before and at first I was afraid of ToT. But my friend explained to me all the pros of the game and I liked it, really! But over time, I found that the RNG ruled the game. Who managed to take the red and purple cards, he won. I no longer have the desire to continue playing ranked games. I will close the achievement for 30 quests and finish on this. Let the balance reign.

The whole game is RNG. Unlike any other card game (Pokemon, Yugioh, Hearthstone, FFXIV's card game, etc), you don't dictate anything except the two decks at the start. The cards you get access to is RNG, the cards that get put into your hand are RNG.... it's just RNG. Like hopefully you're lucky because I know the RNG gods have it out for me hahahahaaaa but honestly, Zenimax's fascination with RNG is just bewildering at this point. RNG crates to rob people blind, RNG loot bags/boxes as rewards for almost any content in game, and now a whole card game centered around it. Makes me kind of worried about what they decide to leave up to RNG next.
And the worst part is definitely the toxic players that somehow think they're superior just because they had better RNG haha I've already come across a few trolls in ToT purposely not winning just to prolong my suffering in an already boring game I'm forced into doing simply for achievement rewards. Like I never knew there would be card slinging versions of apex owners that somehow think they're a better player simply because the probably dropped a little more money on them than they should've, but ESO does have a way of surprising me.... just never really in a good way.

Klingenlied

Interesting discussion.

On the daily: make it play a game of tribute vs another player and done.

On a resign option: Maybe after turn x? But overall, this does not need to be I guess?

My take on balance .. well, there is two actually. When it comes to win / loss, advantages to players - well, rng rules and that is what the game is about. So that is fine. There won't ever be any issues I guess.

If we would "serious" talk balance though, it would be about certain cards being so far behind others that you do not only not want to pick them, but would actively try to avoid those even if the game might hand them out for free. I mean there is at least one 6 gold card that comes to my mind that I would not even want to take in turn 1. Liar deck, the agent guy with no effect, 1 life and and can only do something when you combo him.
Then there is speedy vs stale games - some decks do make games incredibly slow. Those just are not fun to use.

MindOfTheSwarm

To counter Duke you need to push power quick in order to get them to use the Duke patron early. Then, you NEVER use it. This locks the patron making it so they cannot use it anymore. From here you can win, with red by building power faster than them, yellow by buying and sacrificing high value cards, orange by deleting the power they do get. Duke can wombo combo sure, but it is a late game strategy and the trick is to bait them into using the patron earlier.

Marginis

Marginis wrote: »

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

So last night I played two matches of ToT with an experienced player. We both played pretty optimally. There were different options we could have taken at several points which could have changed the outcome, but as far as taking the choices with the best odds, both of us had pretty good decision-making.

First game, I got a few early baits in, where I deliberately took worse options in order to get the opponent to open up really good plays for me. If he would have taken it a bit slower, there's a chance that he wouldn't have opened up those options and the game would've gone a bit longer. As it was, I got a lead and held it until victory, though just barely, with a timely contract agent.

Second game, we were pretty even until he had a massive turn and my follow-up was about the worst draw I could've gotten, making it effectively a dead turn. From there, he held the lead and I got the single turn to catch up or win. I couldn't catch up in prestige, but I had an easy patron victory if I got a single card from the tavern. In three draws I did not get it and I lost.

Sometimes you play the odds and they just aren't in your favor. Sometimes they are in your favor and you just don't get good hits anyway. And sometimes the complete opposite it true. That's how chance works. But even though a deckbuilding game has a lot of chance in it - you're literally getting a mostly random draw every turn after all - you still have to manipulate the chance in order to play well. You build your deck to increase your odds of winning - not guarantee it. That's literally the whole game.

The catch with ToT (or any card game where you draw from a shuffled deck) is that you have to play around chance - but that in no way means that RNG is the sole factor in defeat or victory. Just imagine telling someone like Daniel Negreanu or Jon Finkel that all their success is just random chance.

EDIT: I realize an example might help.

Let's say you've been building Duke, and you have a few purple cards in your hand that will draw you through a bunch of your deck. All of your deck is in the cooldown pile. You have a purple card and a red agent card in the tavern. What do you do?

- A less experienced player might just play all their purple cards.
- A more experienced player might try to buy the purple card from the tavern before using their draw cards, in order to maximize the chances of drawing another purple card to continue the combo.
- An even more experienced player might try to take the red agent from the tavern before shuffling their cd pile, depending on its value, where the opponent's prestige is at, the chances of drawing it, how many other purple cards are in their deck which could continue the combo... or maybe they don't take any cards from the tavern before shuffling, because there's a yellow agent in their deck which could help them get more cards from the tavern total this turn. Hell, maybe they want to activate the red patron to put an agent on top of their deck while it's still in the cd pile, guaranteeing their draw at the cost of missing a new card from the tavern.

My point is, one has to weight the odds and can play better or worse depending both on which option they picked and how lucky they get. It's not just luck, because the luck is very much influenced by which option the player picks.

EnerG

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

And I also agree that the dailies shouldn’t progress with only wins. At least the one against other players. I’m sure they could put in a failsafe that wouldn’t allow it to progress if the player conceded, because obviously that could be abused.

Rally and armory aren't the best cards. Learn to play the blue deck. I'd tell you more, but I don't want to give away all my secrets.

Agree, loremaster is an amazing deck, lots of coin and power off combos and amazing card manipulation, the ragpicker card is a godsent with it to getred of other decks

Casdha

EnerG wrote: »

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

And I also agree that the dailies shouldn’t progress with only wins. At least the one against other players. I’m sure they could put in a failsafe that wouldn’t allow it to progress if the player conceded, because obviously that could be abused.

Rally and armory aren't the best cards. Learn to play the blue deck. I'd tell you more, but I don't want to give away all my secrets.

Agree, loremaster is an amazing deck, lots of coin and power off combos and amazing card manipulation, the ragpicker card is a godsent with it to getred of other decks

It is always my first choice and depending on how your opponent plays, you have an easy no patron loss strategy (when it works) in all you have to do is not leave a patron in play, therefore they can never turn all four.

AwakeOhSleeper

The original scenario that made me post this was an opponent bought an armory card off their first play, going second. The third turn they got a rally off my purchased tavern card.

Having several more weeks data I can tell you, with this opening, regardless of skill, I have not seen the person lose. I’ve seen this happen about 30 times now. My original point was: if something is that rng based, let me have a quick version of it so I’m not forced to wait for Bobby Fischer over here to make the most complicated hour-long out series of plays when really they had it in the bag on that 2nd card flip. The winning was done on the first shuffle and deal, so an option to just say that should exist.

THE problem with this monstrosity is that it attempts to sell you the fact that it’s a game of chance that requires skill and strategy… those are opposing ideas, and that’s why this game doesn’t work.

MY problem with this monstrosity is that it takes too long to reach an outcome that, for all intents and purposes, has already been decided by rng gods. And also that every other aspect of the game you are limited in, you can get better and achieve your goal… ToT, you may be the best player in the world, and the laws of probability state that you may never win a game.

If you enjoy this ToT, good for you, seek help, but good for you… however, clearly, most people don’t and there should be another option since there are many rewards and achievements hidden behind a tales of tribute wall. ToT isn’t the reason anyone bought this chapter and as such we are paying for content we may never be able to get, and certainly won’t enjoy getting if we do. (Holy commas, Batman)


All I’m asking for is the ability to access all the content I paid for (that isn’t held back based on skill) and/or the ability to use my time as I see fit… again, in the game I’ve paid for.

Hawkeye

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

The original scenario that made me post this was an opponent bought an armory card off their first play, going second. The third turn they got a rally off my purchased tavern card.

Having several more weeks data I can tell you, with this opening, regardless of skill, I have not seen the person lose. I’ve seen this happen about 30 times now. My original point was: if something is that rng based, let me have a quick version of it so I’m not forced to wait for Bobby Fischer over here to make the most complicated hour-long out series of plays when really they had it in the bag on that 2nd card flip. The winning was done on the first shuffle and deal, so an option to just say that should exist.

THE problem with this monstrosity is that it attempts to sell you the fact that it’s a game of chance that requires skill and strategy… those are opposing ideas, and that’s why this game doesn’t work.

MY problem with this monstrosity is that it takes too long to reach an outcome that, for all intents and purposes, has already been decided by rng gods. And also that every other aspect of the game you are limited in, you can get better and achieve your goal… ToT, you may be the best player in the world, and the laws of probability state that you may never win a game.

If you enjoy this ToT, good for you, seek help, but good for you… however, clearly, most people don’t and there should be another option since there are many rewards and achievements hidden behind a tales of tribute wall. ToT isn’t the reason anyone bought this chapter and as such we are paying for content we may never be able to get, and certainly won’t enjoy getting if we do. (Holy commas, Batman)


All I’m asking for is the ability to access all the content I paid for (that isn’t held back based on skill) and/or the ability to use my time as I see fit… again, in the game I’ve paid for.

You don't always get what you want. You are not always going to like everything either. You are not "owed" the content. You can play it or not. That is your choice. To complain because you get beat and want it all for nothing is the "Monstrosity" I take a beating in this game every day. I am not going to come on here demanding that they "owe" me. I am going to try and figure out what I am doing wrong and get better. If you were in battle and losing a tough fight would you just toss your weapon to the enemy and walk to the Sgt and say I quit? As for your rng argument. There is not a card game alive where rng does not come into play. Ever play poker? If there was no chance of randomization there would NOT be betting. Get a better argument.

bzz86

Hawkeye wrote: »

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

The original scenario that made me post this was an opponent bought an armory card off their first play, going second. The third turn they got a rally off my purchased tavern card.

Having several more weeks data I can tell you, with this opening, regardless of skill, I have not seen the person lose. I’ve seen this happen about 30 times now. My original point was: if something is that rng based, let me have a quick version of it so I’m not forced to wait for Bobby Fischer over here to make the most complicated hour-long out series of plays when really they had it in the bag on that 2nd card flip. The winning was done on the first shuffle and deal, so an option to just say that should exist.

THE problem with this monstrosity is that it attempts to sell you the fact that it’s a game of chance that requires skill and strategy… those are opposing ideas, and that’s why this game doesn’t work.

MY problem with this monstrosity is that it takes too long to reach an outcome that, for all intents and purposes, has already been decided by rng gods. And also that every other aspect of the game you are limited in, you can get better and achieve your goal… ToT, you may be the best player in the world, and the laws of probability state that you may never win a game.

If you enjoy this ToT, good for you, seek help, but good for you… however, clearly, most people don’t and there should be another option since there are many rewards and achievements hidden behind a tales of tribute wall. ToT isn’t the reason anyone bought this chapter and as such we are paying for content we may never be able to get, and certainly won’t enjoy getting if we do. (Holy commas, Batman)


All I’m asking for is the ability to access all the content I paid for (that isn’t held back based on skill) and/or the ability to use my time as I see fit… again, in the game I’ve paid for.

You don't always get what you want. You are not always going to like everything either. You are not "owed" the content. You can play it or not. That is your choice. To complain because you get beat and want it all for nothing is the "Monstrosity" I take a beating in this game every day. I am not going to come on here demanding that they "owe" me. I am going to try and figure out what I am doing wrong and get better. If you were in battle and losing a tough fight would you just toss your weapon to the enemy and walk to the Sgt and say I quit? As for your rng argument. There is not a card game alive where rng does not come into play. Ever play poker? If there was no chance of randomization there would NOT be betting. Get a better argument.

Mate, this is not a war so you should get a better argument. Your comparison is extremally poor. Comparint it to poker is better than to war. This is not a betting game and the whole point of the poster before you is time. I will try to explain it in short - "If the game is RNG based however you play it, make it shorter". That is the whole point. If you play an RNG game for 30 minutes its a waste of time. And you can say that nobody is forcing anyone to play it... and yes that is true. But if you want the things hidden behind ToT - cause you enjoy other aspects of the game - you have to play it to get them. If you yourself want to go and loose games cause you are persistant - that is fine. I have not played ToT more than 2 days. I will wait for them to make it more fair or faster before I start again. In the mean time if you dont want to read people complaining avoid about 90% of this forum.

AwakeOhSleeper

Hawkeye wrote: »

You don't always get what you want. You are not always going to like everything either. You are not "owed" the content. You can play it or not. That is your choice. To complain because you get beat and want it all for nothing is the "Monstrosity" I take a beating in this game every day. I am not going to come on here demanding that they "owe" me. I am going to try and figure out what I am doing wrong and get better. If you were in battle and losing a tough fight would you just toss your weapon to the enemy and walk to the Sgt and say I quit? As for your rng argument. There is not a card game alive where rng does not come into play. Ever play poker? If there was no chance of randomization there would NOT be betting. Get a better argument.

[snip]

But sadly for you, you’re quite mistaken in literally every point you make here:

I win about 80% of my matches against other players. [snip] I’m simply saying the fact that the only real currency here is time, and the same odds could be applied in a much faster fashion for people who have no desire to waste the time on this mini-game (that you ARE forced to play for various reasons).

Next, I AM entitled to (id est ‘owed’) content which I paid for, under a plethora of property and digital ownership laws. I’ll be glad to debate this with you, I’d just like to make sure we’re on equal footing first. Have you obtained your J.D.?

And just to keep this short:

your rng argument maybe valid for literally every game EXCEPT betting-poker, as with poker the cards dealt actually have little to nothing to do with the winning of the game. Watch any sort of professional poker and you’ll see that in quite a few hands, the last cards aren’t even shown, it’s not about the winning hand it’s about outplaying your opponent based on skill. Something ToT tries actively to prevent with its shared decks and heavy rng.


[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Casdha

If I were to compare this game to something it would be Skip Bo.

Why you ask, because there is no betting involved, only a winner, and my wife always seems to get the cards in her pile to line up one after the other and then she wins.

D**N that Skip Bo RNG. It must be proof we are living in The Matrix.

Heartrage

@AwakeOhSleeper

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

The original scenario that made me post this was an opponent bought an armory card off their first play, going second. The third turn they got a rally off my purchased tavern card.

Having several more weeks data I can tell you, with this opening, regardless of skill, I have not seen the person lose. I’ve seen this happen about 30 times now. My original point was: if something is that rng based, let me have a quick version of it so I’m not forced to wait for Bobby Fischer over here to make the most complicated hour-long out series of plays when really they had it in the bag on that 2nd card flip. The winning was done on the first shuffle and deal, so an option to just say that should exist.

THE problem with this monstrosity is that it attempts to sell you the fact that it’s a game of chance that requires skill and strategy… those are opposing ideas, and that’s why this game doesn’t work.

MY problem with this monstrosity is that it takes too long to reach an outcome that, for all intents and purposes, has already been decided by rng gods. And also that every other aspect of the game you are limited in, you can get better and achieve your goal… ToT, you may be the best player in the world, and the laws of probability state that you may never win a game.

If you enjoy this ToT, good for you, seek help, but good for you… however, clearly, most people don’t and there should be another option since there are many rewards and achievements hidden behind a tales of tribute wall. ToT isn’t the reason anyone bought this chapter and as such we are paying for content we may never be able to get, and certainly won’t enjoy getting if we do. (Holy commas, Batman)


All I’m asking for is the ability to access all the content I paid for (that isn’t held back based on skill) and/or the ability to use my time as I see fit… again, in the game I’ve paid for.

Lol, I think that was me. Did your opponent get a second rally by the end of the game?

Also, a game of chance can also require skill and strategy. For example, a game like yahtzee is purely about getting a specific result from random number generation. However, you can still calculate the odds of getting a specific result and try or not to get that result over another result.

Of course, you could always be making the best choice and try for the best odds and still miss the mark because of Rng, but that’s how these games are played. If you can increase your odds to 65% win rate, you still lose 35% of the games but you still got 15% of these wins with skills.

As for the whole rewards thing, these are optionals and don’t impact other contents. You are not entitled to get them because you bought the chapter either just as everyone is not entitled to set pieces for content they haven’t done.

AwakeOhSleeper

@Heartrage lol it may well have been. There have been two times in this situation that players (once myself, once my opponent) have been dealt a second rally mid to late game. I’ve won my fair share on OP hands/rng luck, though, so ggs if it was. ; )

And I’m not talking about the end of match rewards as things hidden behind the ‘wall of tribute’. I totally get that those are rewards for playing matches, as undaunted rewards are for dungeons, or RftW from PvP and should only be awarded for participating in those activities. I’m speaking to things such as achievements/medals/trophies, leads, quests, unique gear, etc. that is all content that was implied in the purchase, but because of hypothetical terrible luck and probability not skill taking the driver’s seat might not ever be obtainable.

And the big thing is, I’m not even speaking for myself here: I’ve got very few ‘completionist’ tasks left to do, I’ve had great luck with everything and been fortunate. I’m advocating for players that come later, who will already be at a disadvantage time-wise and who are getting the ‘poopy’ end of a really short stick on this one.

Finally, I’m not so sure that a true game of chance can involve skill… a coin flip is mostly (off by a slight weight difference in the molding of the ‘heads’ side) an even game of chance with odds of winning the same for both parties, where as if you introduce any variable with human control into it, it becomes a game of skill and one player could have a decided advantage

Casdha

I've won a half a dozen games (2 in the last 2 days) where the other person got all the dang luck. The problem was they had such good luck they kept buying cards and had to many in their deck to get to any of them while I chugged away at buying all the 4, 5 and 6 point cards, regardless of what they were just to sacrifice them after I got their initial use.

And then there are them times when they have the luck and know what to do with it. Thanks @Heartrage for knocking me out of the top 100 tonight LoL. Its all good though, I got back to 69th place before I logged out for the night


Edit: I've sacrificed more than one of the Rally and Armory cards to win a game as well because I try to keep watch of what is in their hands if it is a close game. (yes you can see everything they have except for the 5 in their hand if you click on their various piles of cards)

IrishOphidia

My biggest issue at the moment is the Patron favor system having zero depth at all. They have function, yes, but it's the same whether you're favored or not. If spend a resource to gain Patron favor, then what real benefit am I receiving when the opposing player can take me out of favor and gain the exact same benefit. If I choose a Patron to gain favor from then the opposing player should need to spend the resource but gain less benefit from clicking it. Then if they want to benefit from that Patron, they can spend the resource again to gain the favor. Don't call it "favor" if the Patron isn't really "favoring" you. A perfect example of this is the Khajiit Patron which people just spam back-and-forth which adds a ridiculous number of useless cards to each other's decks. It's not an appealing strategy style. Another would be the Crow Patron where it turns into a back-and-forth spam coin cards and hit Crow until someone runs out of enough coin. Put some depth into the Patron system and make it an enjoyable strategy choice. Also, it amazes me that ZoS has yet again introduced an incredibly broken power creep system into yet another aspect of the game. The whole match is centered around just fighting for power generating cards (Or Prestrige in the Sorcerer's case).

IrishOphidia

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

Rally and armory aren't the best cards. Learn to play the blue deck. I'd tell you more, but I don't want to give away all my secrets.

Why would I want to learn a blue deck strategy when there are far better decks to use and build strategy around?

IrishOphidia

Marginis wrote: »

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

whether game has a good foundation or not is of little concern when the function of that game is widely out of balance. I have a fairly decent background in card games and I'd love to hear how you came to the conclusion you did because ToT lacks a lot and leaves even more to be desired.

IrishOphidia

Hawkeye wrote: »

This is nothing more than some haters trying to get the game shut down. The game does take skill. The game is fun. If you set down and try to learn it you may think differently. It has RNG for sure but you still can win if you know what you are doing.
This is starting to get to be like the whole Oakensoul ring ranting. You have a bunch of PVP players crying that it is to op. Instead of looking at the build they use and seeing why it is not as good as it was before the ring came out. It is just easier to come on the forums and cry foul then to do some due diligence. There is nothing wrong with the game, the rng GIVES you a chance to win in the case you are playing someone who might be much better then you. Maybe look at it that way.

I'm sorry, but I've been playing ToT since it launched and I'm not sure what exactly you're on, but I'd love some of it. The whole game is based around who can get core cards first with very little counterplay ability. Literally, the entire game revolves around who can build power/prestige the quickest. There is no counterplay in the sense that my opponent gains power generating cards first and I have the ability to strategize in order to prevent them from utilizing those core cards fully which then gives me a chance to come back and overtake. If you've played any amount of PvP deck builder style card games, then you'd understand this concept and understand why ToT is clearly unbalanced and falling short of being a good PvP style deck builder.

IrishOphidia

Marginis wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

So last night I played two matches of ToT with an experienced player. We both played pretty optimally. There were different options we could have taken at several points which could have changed the outcome, but as far as taking the choices with the best odds, both of us had pretty good decision-making.

First game, I got a few early baits in, where I deliberately took worse options in order to get the opponent to open up really good plays for me. If he would have taken it a bit slower, there's a chance that he wouldn't have opened up those options and the game would've gone a bit longer. As it was, I got a lead and held it until victory, though just barely, with a timely contract agent.

Second game, we were pretty even until he had a massive turn and my follow-up was about the worst draw I could've gotten, making it effectively a dead turn. From there, he held the lead and I got the single turn to catch up or win. I couldn't catch up in prestige, but I had an easy patron victory if I got a single card from the tavern. In three draws I did not get it and I lost.

Sometimes you play the odds and they just aren't in your favor. Sometimes they are in your favor and you just don't get good hits anyway. And sometimes the complete opposite it true. That's how chance works. But even though a deckbuilding game has a lot of chance in it - you're literally getting a mostly random draw every turn after all - you still have to manipulate the chance in order to play well. You build your deck to increase your odds of winning - not guarantee it. That's literally the whole game.

The catch with ToT (or any card game where you draw from a shuffled deck) is that you have to play around chance - but that in no way means that RNG is the sole factor in defeat or victory. Just imagine telling someone like Daniel Negreanu or Jon Finkel that all their success is just random chance.

EDIT: I realize an example might help.

Let's say you've been building Duke, and you have a few purple cards in your hand that will draw you through a bunch of your deck. All of your deck is in the cooldown pile. You have a purple card and a red agent card in the tavern. What do you do?

- A less experienced player might just play all their purple cards.
- A more experienced player might try to buy the purple card from the tavern before using their draw cards, in order to maximize the chances of drawing another purple card to continue the combo.
- An even more experienced player might try to take the red agent from the tavern before shuffling their cd pile, depending on its value, where the opponent's prestige is at, the chances of drawing it, how many other purple cards are in their deck which could continue the combo... or maybe they don't take any cards from the tavern before shuffling, because there's a yellow agent in their deck which could help them get more cards from the tavern total this turn. Hell, maybe they want to activate the red patron to put an agent on top of their deck while it's still in the cd pile, guaranteeing their draw at the cost of missing a new card from the tavern.

My point is, one has to weight the odds and can play better or worse depending both on which option they picked and how lucky they get. It's not just luck, because the luck is very much influenced by which option the player picks.

This entire example is 100% based on whether you are able to acquire the proper cards to begin with. I've played games where its rather even, however, I've also played games where one player essentially gets fed all the good combo cards simply because of purchasing power. There is no way to manipulate your ability to acquire cards if they never appear or if they never appear during your turns. THIS is what people are referring to when they say RNG. Once a player has a set of core cards then it's simply a race and the opposing player has to acquire their own core cards within the next few turns or it's simply over and there's no catching up. The issue with ToT is that there is no effective counterplay available to the lagging player in mounting any kind of comeback.

IrishOphidia

Hawkeye wrote: »

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

The original scenario that made me post this was an opponent bought an armory card off their first play, going second. The third turn they got a rally off my purchased tavern card.

Having several more weeks data I can tell you, with this opening, regardless of skill, I have not seen the person lose. I’ve seen this happen about 30 times now. My original point was: if something is that rng based, let me have a quick version of it so I’m not forced to wait for Bobby Fischer over here to make the most complicated hour-long out series of plays when really they had it in the bag on that 2nd card flip. The winning was done on the first shuffle and deal, so an option to just say that should exist.

THE problem with this monstrosity is that it attempts to sell you the fact that it’s a game of chance that requires skill and strategy… those are opposing ideas, and that’s why this game doesn’t work.

MY problem with this monstrosity is that it takes too long to reach an outcome that, for all intents and purposes, has already been decided by rng gods. And also that every other aspect of the game you are limited in, you can get better and achieve your goal… ToT, you may be the best player in the world, and the laws of probability state that you may never win a game.

If you enjoy this ToT, good for you, seek help, but good for you… however, clearly, most people don’t and there should be another option since there are many rewards and achievements hidden behind a tales of tribute wall. ToT isn’t the reason anyone bought this chapter and as such we are paying for content we may never be able to get, and certainly won’t enjoy getting if we do. (Holy commas, Batman)


All I’m asking for is the ability to access all the content I paid for (that isn’t held back based on skill) and/or the ability to use my time as I see fit… again, in the game I’ve paid for.

You don't always get what you want. You are not always going to like everything either. You are not "owed" the content. You can play it or not. That is your choice. To complain because you get beat and want it all for nothing is the "Monstrosity" I take a beating in this game every day. I am not going to come on here demanding that they "owe" me. I am going to try and figure out what I am doing wrong and get better. If you were in battle and losing a tough fight would you just toss your weapon to the enemy and walk to the Sgt and say I quit? As for your rng argument. There is not a card game alive where rng does not come into play. Ever play poker? If there was no chance of randomization there would NOT be betting. Get a better argument.

This is a terrible analogy xD For starters, yes, they do owe you a pleasant gaming experience. You pay for it. Secondly, nothing ever improves if all you do is sit back and allow it to remain unbalanced because you did nothing to give the devs feedback on performance. Thirdly, a fighting analogy is a terrible example considering it is completely, and solely, based on your skill as a fighter and not RNG. To make a proper comparison, that's like going into a 1v1 battle and taking turns. Except you don't just get to fight it out. You have to draw a card to see what kind of attack you get to perform. Oh, it's my turn. Darn, I draw a block card so all I can do is block this turn. Ok your turn. Next, poker is also a terrible example when comparing a PvP deck builder to another card game. Poker has a lot of skill involved along with psychological manipulation, understanding mathematics, and knowing when to be aggressive and when to play cautiously. This game has absolutely none of that. The entire point of the game is to play as aggressive as possible 100% of the time.

Heartrage

IrishOphidia wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

So last night I played two matches of ToT with an experienced player. We both played pretty optimally. There were different options we could have taken at several points which could have changed the outcome, but as far as taking the choices with the best odds, both of us had pretty good decision-making.

First game, I got a few early baits in, where I deliberately took worse options in order to get the opponent to open up really good plays for me. If he would have taken it a bit slower, there's a chance that he wouldn't have opened up those options and the game would've gone a bit longer. As it was, I got a lead and held it until victory, though just barely, with a timely contract agent.

Second game, we were pretty even until he had a massive turn and my follow-up was about the worst draw I could've gotten, making it effectively a dead turn. From there, he held the lead and I got the single turn to catch up or win. I couldn't catch up in prestige, but I had an easy patron victory if I got a single card from the tavern. In three draws I did not get it and I lost.

Sometimes you play the odds and they just aren't in your favor. Sometimes they are in your favor and you just don't get good hits anyway. And sometimes the complete opposite it true. That's how chance works. But even though a deckbuilding game has a lot of chance in it - you're literally getting a mostly random draw every turn after all - you still have to manipulate the chance in order to play well. You build your deck to increase your odds of winning - not guarantee it. That's literally the whole game.

The catch with ToT (or any card game where you draw from a shuffled deck) is that you have to play around chance - but that in no way means that RNG is the sole factor in defeat or victory. Just imagine telling someone like Daniel Negreanu or Jon Finkel that all their success is just random chance.

EDIT: I realize an example might help.

Let's say you've been building Duke, and you have a few purple cards in your hand that will draw you through a bunch of your deck. All of your deck is in the cooldown pile. You have a purple card and a red agent card in the tavern. What do you do?

- A less experienced player might just play all their purple cards.
- A more experienced player might try to buy the purple card from the tavern before using their draw cards, in order to maximize the chances of drawing another purple card to continue the combo.
- An even more experienced player might try to take the red agent from the tavern before shuffling their cd pile, depending on its value, where the opponent's prestige is at, the chances of drawing it, how many other purple cards are in their deck which could continue the combo... or maybe they don't take any cards from the tavern before shuffling, because there's a yellow agent in their deck which could help them get more cards from the tavern total this turn. Hell, maybe they want to activate the red patron to put an agent on top of their deck while it's still in the cd pile, guaranteeing their draw at the cost of missing a new card from the tavern.

My point is, one has to weight the odds and can play better or worse depending both on which option they picked and how lucky they get. It's not just luck, because the luck is very much influenced by which option the player picks.

This entire example is 100% based on whether you are able to acquire the proper cards to begin with. I've played games where its rather even, however, I've also played games where one player essentially gets fed all the good combo cards simply because of purchasing power. There is no way to manipulate your ability to acquire cards if they never appear or if they never appear during your turns. THIS is what people are referring to when they say RNG. Once a player has a set of core cards then it's simply a race and the opposing player has to acquire their own core cards within the next few turns or it's simply over and there's no catching up. The issue with ToT is that there is no effective counterplay available to the lagging player in mounting any kind of comeback.

Rng is the base of all card games, even manipulated odds rely on rng. You say blue is useless then complain about inability to control the cards you are getting. You control the cards you are getting by raising your gold/turn, by dismissing the cards from your deck and draw pile, by dismissing cards in the tavern and by picking additional cards from your pile.