Just allow RNG W/L, since that is all ToT is anyway

mague

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

So, Tales of Tribute, you can claim that there is strategy, and mechanics, and an ability to win being the better player… but that is simply, blatantly, and unequivocally not true. It’s RNG, plain and simple: And HONESTLY it’s usually who goes second, but definitely who gets the first GOOD card. Just one, that’s all it takes, and the match is over; only it’s not, you still need to suffer through 15 to 30 minutes of the loss that happened 2 turns in.

Since this is an INARGUABLE FACT, is there any way to just let an RNG coin flip decide the winner at the beginning of the match? I have no desire to sit through as many hours as ‘completion’ (whatever that maybe) or farming is going to take when this RNG monstrosity could literally just state who wins when it decides such… AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH!

Maybe the wrong approach..

Look at Backgammon. It is RnG based but you also have to be a good player. But the real thing you can learn from Backgammon is that you dont play to win, but to not make mistakes.

FlopsyPrince

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

And I also agree that the dailies shouldn’t progress with only wins. At least the one against other players. I’m sure they could put in a failsafe that wouldn’t allow it to progress if the player conceded, because obviously that could be abused.

Rally and armory aren't the best cards. Learn to play the blue deck. I'd tell you more, but I don't want to give away all my secrets.

Not that knowing your secrets would help. I want to play an MMO to do MMO things, not stress out over a card game, which I now know "hides" motifs I would want behind it!

mague wrote: »

AwakeOhSleeper wrote: »

So, Tales of Tribute, you can claim that there is strategy, and mechanics, and an ability to win being the better player… but that is simply, blatantly, and unequivocally not true. It’s RNG, plain and simple: And HONESTLY it’s usually who goes second, but definitely who gets the first GOOD card. Just one, that’s all it takes, and the match is over; only it’s not, you still need to suffer through 15 to 30 minutes of the loss that happened 2 turns in.

Since this is an INARGUABLE FACT, is there any way to just let an RNG coin flip decide the winner at the beginning of the match? I have no desire to sit through as many hours as ‘completion’ (whatever that maybe) or farming is going to take when this RNG monstrosity could literally just state who wins when it decides such… AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH!

Maybe the wrong approach..

Look at Backgammon. It is RnG based but you also have to be a good player. But the real thing you can learn from Backgammon is that you dont play to win, but to not make mistakes.

Adding a game where you just have to "hope to not make mistakes" makes for bad gameplay for most of us. Some do enjoy backgammon, but relatively few play it and that reason could be why.

Necrotech_Master

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Cannot understand why anybody would waste valuable playing time to this card game. It isn't worth it.

the general rewards are absolutely fantastic, but to avoid frustration i usually only play NPCs while waiting for them to balance things better for competitive play

FlopsyPrince

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Cannot understand why anybody would waste valuable playing time to this card game. It isn't worth it.

the general rewards are absolutely fantastic, but to avoid frustration i usually only play NPCs while waiting for them to balance things better for competitive play

Hence the problem. Valuable things have been hidden here. Really, really annoying, though expected.

AwakeOhSleeper

Yes, Tales of Trash should probably have had it’s own currency (zos DOES love to do that after all) with which you could just buy any reward (leads, new cards, reward coffers, motifs, all of it).

It’s truly not that far fetched to understand that between nobody wanting to play an unbalanced, un-fun, and skewed game with RNG deciding who gets to win based on that unbalance and then ESO’s already terrible RNG odds on top tier rewards that you probably will never get the lead/motif/item you want unless you do it right now with ‘interest’ piqued.

At least with a currency system you can save from the matches that aren’t simply terrible (so like 4/100), you can buy what you want or need while still needing to play matches, and you won’t be stuck behind some infinite need to find an opponent in a game Nobody is going to play with the drop of the next dlc.


At the very least can we get the dialogue option changed when an NPC asks you: “Do you want to play Tales of Tribute?” To the reply being: “No one ever WANTS to play Tales if Trubute; however, I will because I am forced to.”

Rouz

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Cannot understand why anybody would waste valuable playing time to this card game. It isn't worth it.

the general rewards are absolutely fantastic, but to avoid frustration i usually only play NPCs while waiting for them to balance things better for competitive play

Yeah this is what i need to start doing. Bummer they released it in such a poor balance state cause it kind of devalues any rewards from a competitive standpoint. If next season rewards are the same trophy, its just gonna be like "oh you must have gotten lucky in s1". Assuming they actually try to balance it and dont just leave it to rot. Just confuses me how the balance got released in such a bad state. So the RNG game just turns into whomever gets those cards first. I mean its great that there's little skill in it and high RNG, meaning that everyone is on equal grounds of winning because you both have the same chance to get the same OP cards that don't require any thought process.

Necrotech_Master

Rouz wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Cannot understand why anybody would waste valuable playing time to this card game. It isn't worth it.

the general rewards are absolutely fantastic, but to avoid frustration i usually only play NPCs while waiting for them to balance things better for competitive play

Yeah this is what i need to start doing. Bummer they released it in such a poor balance state cause it kind of devalues any rewards from a competitive standpoint. If next season rewards are the same trophy, its just gonna be like "oh you must have gotten lucky in s1". Assuming they actually try to balance it and dont just leave it to rot. Just confuses me how the balance got released in such a bad state. So the RNG game just turns into whomever gets those cards first. I mean its great that there's little skill in it and high RNG, meaning that everyone is on equal grounds of winning because you both have the same chance to get the same OP cards that don't require any thought process.

there is not too many balance issues, the main ones i see are some of the pelin cards (armory and rally being the most obvious), and likely orgnum patron ability

crow cards by themselves you need a lot of in order to really build up power and coin, but if you want single cards that give uber amounts of coin you need hlaalu and rahjin (the +4 gold cards from rahjin coupled with the +6 gold coins from hlaalu with some crow cards mixed in to keep drawing ive managed to gain upwards 35 coin in a single round, and ive actually beaten NPCs with the crow at that point, the most power ive gained in a single turn was 52, which put me up to a total of 90 against an npc lol)

Marginis

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

bzz86

Marginis wrote: »

While there is definitely some amount of random chance that comes with any card game, knowing card games generally and having a good amount of experience with them helps me appreciate how well designed ToT actually is. Yes, there are definitely some places to improve systems and balancing, but the game itself works pretty well and involves a not insignificant amount of skill - despite OP's claim of inarguable fact.

Majority of the comments in this topic are claiming otherwise mate....

This game is not based on skill or experience. It is all about what card you get and when. Imagine if it is your turn and the cards on the table are bad but you take one cause you need to start building up your game and then have no more gold. The card that replaces it is way better and now your oponent takes it. Then this card is replaced with another bad card for you to pick. But you now know there might be a great card later on so you play patron instead and not take a card. Then your oponent plays with 5 gold - takes the bad card for 2 gold and then a great card comes that costs 3. He takes it as well...... And you play like that till the end.... You played 100 games and have all cards unlocked - your oponent plays his 5th game and didnt unlock anything. You as a skilled player loose with pride ?

The game is 95% RNG and 5% skill.

SilverBride

bzz86 wrote: »

This game is not based on skill or experience...
...The game is 95% RNG and 5% skill.

Skill is the biggest factor in whether or not a player wins or loses a game.

I started off losing almost every single ranked game I played, as well as games with friends and against NPC's. After much practicing and studying advice from other players I now win more ranked games than I lose and rarely lose against the proficient NPCs.

If skill didn't matter I would still be losing most of my games.

bzz86

SilverBride wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

This game is not based on skill or experience...
...The game is 95% RNG and 5% skill.

Skill is the biggest factor in whether or not a player wins or loses a game.

I started off losing almost every single ranked game I played, as well as games with friends and against NPC's. After much practicing and studying advice from other players I now win more ranked games than I lose and rarely lose against the proficient NPCs.

If skill didn't matter I would still be losing most of my games.

So now tell me how to play a game with skill in the example I gave earier ?

Casdha

I have a question, do you believe the same could happen with printed cards and a trustworthy dealer?

IMHO of course it can, skill plays a part regardless of luck.

I also understand video poker games don't have an RNG, they follow a program designed to take in a preprogrammed percentage.

What is suggested in these arguments is the latter.

bzz86

Casdha wrote: »

I have a question, do you believe the same could happen with printed cards and a trustworthy dealer?

IMHO of course it can, skill plays a part regardless of luck.

I also understand video poker games don't have an RNG, they follow a program designed to take in a preprogrammed percentage.

What is suggested in these arguments is the latter.

Read the rest of the conversation. There is no skill in a game that requires you to be lucky to get something good. You might be extremally skilled in the game but if you get only bad cards you will loose. If the game would have a balanced 'luck' it might be fine but cause it is totaly RNG you can never know.

Casdha

bzz86 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I have a question, do you believe the same could happen with printed cards and a trustworthy dealer?

IMHO of course it can, skill plays a part regardless of luck.

I also understand video poker games don't have an RNG, they follow a program designed to take in a preprogrammed percentage.

What is suggested in these arguments is the latter.

Read the rest of the conversation. There is no skill in a game that requires you to be lucky to get something good. You might be extremally skilled in the game but if you get only bad cards you will loose. If the game would have a balanced 'luck' it might be fine but cause it is totaly RNG you can never know.

I have read them. RNG only plays a role as suggested if it is pulling from a weighted table like loot. I doubt they programmed the cards with a percentage on chance to show up, there are only so many cards and each has to show up before they can show up twice. (yes there are multiples of many cards but still only so many total) if you see 4 of something that only has 2 then I'd complain about something being fishy.

SilverBride

bzz86 wrote: »

Imagine if it is your turn and the cards on the table are bad but you take one cause you need to start building up your game and then have no more gold. The card that replaces it is way better and now your oponent takes it.

That is RNG and something that can happen no matter how skilled a player is. But in a situation like that, instead of taking a bad card I would use the Crow if it was available and convert my gold into power, ending up with prestige instead of a bad card.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then this card is replaced with another bad card for you to pick. But you now know there might be a great card later on so you play patron instead and not take a card.

Once again, I would use the Crow if it was available, or convert gold to writs.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then your oponent plays with 5 gold - takes the bad card for 2 gold and then a great card comes that costs 3. He takes it as well...... And you play like that till the end....

I wouldn't play like that to the end. I would use the Crow as much as possible (I've found it very rare that the Crow isn't a chosen patron deck) and try to build a different deck than my opponent is, which would increase my chances of getting good cards because he wouldn't be taking them.

Even the most skilled player will run into bad RNG sometimes. That is the nature of card games. But an unskilled player can have the best RNG and still lose because they don't know how to maximize their deck.

Also, if there is a good card up but I don't have enough gold for it, I will remove it if I have the card to do so, and then I will miss out on a good card, but at least it won't fall into my opponent's hand.

bzz86

SilverBride wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Imagine if it is your turn and the cards on the table are bad but you take one cause you need to start building up your game and then have no more gold. The card that replaces it is way better and now your oponent takes it.

That is RNG and something that can happen no matter how skilled a player is. But in a situation like that, instead of taking a bad card I would use the Crow if it was available and convert my gold into power, ending up with prestige instead of a bad card.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then this card is replaced with another bad card for you to pick. But you now know there might be a great card later on so you play patron instead and not take a card.

Once again, I would use the Crow if it was available, or convert gold to writs.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then your oponent plays with 5 gold - takes the bad card for 2 gold and then a great card comes that costs 3. He takes it as well...... And you play like that till the end....

I wouldn't play like that to the end. I would use the Crow as much as possible (I've found it very rare that the Crow isn't a chosen patron deck) and try to build a different deck than my opponent is, which would increase my chances of getting good cards because he wouldn't be taking them.

Even the most skilled player will run into bad RNG sometimes. That is the nature of card games. But an unskilled player can have the best RNG and still lose because they don't know how to maximize their deck.

Also, if there is a good card up but I don't have enough gold for it, I will remove it if I have the card to do so, and then I will miss out on a good card, but at least it won't fall into my opponent's hand.

You very much 'if' around how you play and 'if' you have something in this game or 'if' you can choose something other than patron its RNG mate.

If I would have good cards I would not use the patron. But if I have bad cards and I use patron the other player will will eventualy. If there is crow in play my power collecting will still be below of what my oponent can do.

If you can across very, very bad player then yes you can still win despite the RNG, but how often does that really happen to you? I could not say cause I stopped playing with other players after about 5 days.

TOT is very much luck based and that is how the dev team besically explains that you can play against any player, experienced or not. That is how they justify the fact that the game is for everybody.

jaws343

SilverBride wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Imagine if it is your turn and the cards on the table are bad but you take one cause you need to start building up your game and then have no more gold. The card that replaces it is way better and now your oponent takes it.

That is RNG and something that can happen no matter how skilled a player is. But in a situation like that, instead of taking a bad card I would use the Crow if it was available and convert my gold into power, ending up with prestige instead of a bad card.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then this card is replaced with another bad card for you to pick. But you now know there might be a great card later on so you play patron instead and not take a card.

Once again, I would use the Crow if it was available, or convert gold to writs.

bzz86 wrote: »

Then your oponent plays with 5 gold - takes the bad card for 2 gold and then a great card comes that costs 3. He takes it as well...... And you play like that till the end....

I wouldn't play like that to the end. I would use the Crow as much as possible (I've found it very rare that the Crow isn't a chosen patron deck) and try to build a different deck than my opponent is, which would increase my chances of getting good cards because he wouldn't be taking them.

Even the most skilled player will run into bad RNG sometimes. That is the nature of card games. But an unskilled player can have the best RNG and still lose because they don't know how to maximize their deck.

Also, if there is a good card up but I don't have enough gold for it, I will remove it if I have the card to do so, and then I will miss out on a good card, but at least it won't fall into my opponent's hand.

Yeah, I think the fallacy in the situation presented is the idea that you have to take a card from the Tavern. You don't have to do that, and can instead activate a patron and end the turn, leaving the terrible cards on the board for your opponent.

But also, activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

bzz86

Casdha wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I have a question, do you believe the same could happen with printed cards and a trustworthy dealer?

IMHO of course it can, skill plays a part regardless of luck.

I also understand video poker games don't have an RNG, they follow a program designed to take in a preprogrammed percentage.

What is suggested in these arguments is the latter.

Read the rest of the conversation. There is no skill in a game that requires you to be lucky to get something good. You might be extremally skilled in the game but if you get only bad cards you will loose. If the game would have a balanced 'luck' it might be fine but cause it is totaly RNG you can never know.

I have read them. RNG only plays a role as suggested if it is pulling from a weighted table like loot. I doubt they programmed the cards with a percentage on chance to show up, there are only so many cards and each has to show up before they can show up twice. (yes there are multiples of many cards but still only so many total) if you see 4 of something that only has 2 then I'd complain about something being fishy.

Indeed - but that does not disqualify the fact that you have as much of a chance to see a 'good' card as your opponent but at the same time there is a chance he will get all the 'good' cards and you will not.

Casdha

bzz86 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

I have a question, do you believe the same could happen with printed cards and a trustworthy dealer?

IMHO of course it can, skill plays a part regardless of luck.

I also understand video poker games don't have an RNG, they follow a program designed to take in a preprogrammed percentage.

What is suggested in these arguments is the latter.

Read the rest of the conversation. There is no skill in a game that requires you to be lucky to get something good. You might be extremally skilled in the game but if you get only bad cards you will loose. If the game would have a balanced 'luck' it might be fine but cause it is totaly RNG you can never know.

I have read them. RNG only plays a role as suggested if it is pulling from a weighted table like loot. I doubt they programmed the cards with a percentage on chance to show up, there are only so many cards and each has to show up before they can show up twice. (yes there are multiples of many cards but still only so many total) if you see 4 of something that only has 2 then I'd complain about something being fishy.

Indeed - but that does not disqualify the fact that you have as much of a chance to see a 'good' card as your opponent but at the same time there is a chance he will get all the 'good' cards and you will not.

And vice-versa, also I've won games when they got all of the good cards and I've lost games where I got the good ones.

Example: last night the other person got all of the 4, 5 and 6 point hitters and was way ahead of me in prestige. I had two tithes in hand and one on the table but no power in hand. I used the coin from the tithes and another card (they had blocked two of my cards from the start, I only had use of 3) and bought the tithe on the table and a couple of cheap cards hoping an agent would show up. It did and I was able to make 3 patron turns in one hand and won the game.

Edit: a trick I learned from loosing to it, more than once.

SilverBride

jaws343 wrote: »

...activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

Very good point. I've been lucky that my opponent almost always then uses the Crow themselves, possibly to keep me from getting all the Patrons. But I'll definitely keep this in mind in the future.

Casdha

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

Very good point. I've been lucky that my opponent almost always then uses the Crow themselves, possibly to keep me from getting all the Patrons. But I'll definitely keep this in mind in the future.

I've also seen players use an early Duke turn as sort of a bluff. You think they don't understand how it works and you focus on card grabbing and boom the game is over because you quit paying attention. And by you I mean "I" lol

jaws343

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

Very good point. I've been lucky that my opponent almost always then uses the Crow themselves, possibly to keep me from getting all the Patrons. But I'll definitely keep this in mind in the future.

I've also seen players use an early Duke turn as sort of a bluff. You think they don't understand how it works and you focus on card grabbing and boom the game is over because you quit paying attention. And by you I mean "I" lol

My favorite early game Patron move is to use the Psijic one to wipe out an opponents agent, and then just avoid playing or keeping agents in the field. If I do play one, I use the Hlaalu to sacrifice them before ending my turn, keeps me with a permanent Patron, provides some power when I do play an agent, and an easier path to winning with favor if the chance arises.

Casdha

jaws343 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

Very good point. I've been lucky that my opponent almost always then uses the Crow themselves, possibly to keep me from getting all the Patrons. But I'll definitely keep this in mind in the future.

I've also seen players use an early Duke turn as sort of a bluff. You think they don't understand how it works and you focus on card grabbing and boom the game is over because you quit paying attention. And by you I mean "I" lol

My favorite early game Patron move is to use the Psijic one to wipe out an opponents agent, and then just avoid playing or keeping agents in the field. If I do play one, I use the Hlaalu to sacrifice them before ending my turn, keeps me with a permanent Patron, provides some power when I do play an agent, and an easier path to winning with favor if the chance arises.

It is why I never use/buy agents when Halaalu isn't in the game. No way to sacrifice and get rid of them.

jaws343

Casdha wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...activating the Crow early in a game is one of the worst moves you can actually make imo. It is the only patron that cannot be used again while it favors you. So, if you use it early in the game, chances are you are not getting much from it. Whenever I have an opponent use it early, I am glad, because it means that they cannot use it later in the game where it may be more impactful.

For example, I once had an opponent build up a combo late in the game and get like 25 gold, then use the crow, which put them above 40 and like 30+ points up on me. Using it early when you only have like 4-5 coin, not going to be much of an impact.

Very good point. I've been lucky that my opponent almost always then uses the Crow themselves, possibly to keep me from getting all the Patrons. But I'll definitely keep this in mind in the future.

I've also seen players use an early Duke turn as sort of a bluff. You think they don't understand how it works and you focus on card grabbing and boom the game is over because you quit paying attention. And by you I mean "I" lol

My favorite early game Patron move is to use the Psijic one to wipe out an opponents agent, and then just avoid playing or keeping agents in the field. If I do play one, I use the Hlaalu to sacrifice them before ending my turn, keeps me with a permanent Patron, provides some power when I do play an agent, and an easier path to winning with favor if the chance arises.

It is why I never use/buy agents when Halaalu isn't in the game. No way to sacrifice and get rid of them.

Hlaalu is shaping up to be my favorite deck to play with. Some really strong combos, that can net tons of coin, and allow you to just take cards from the tavern for free. Once it gets rolling, it becomes crazy unstoppable. I think one turn I pulled 4 or 5 strong cards from the tavern for free, and refreshed the entire thing, then bought a handful of strong Pelin cards. And with the Hlaalu sacrifice, you can destroy some fairly high value cards every turn for a ton of power.

FlopsyPrince

Something is missing here:

It is skill to know which cards are good and how to build a decent hand/pile. It is pure luck on whether you can do that once you know it.

Thus you need the first, but it is not enough.

I maintain my position that this was not a good addition for the game, even though a few vocal people will disagree. It is annoying that I am missing out on motifs I need/want, but such is life.

Perhaps I will fiddle with it later. It took Archeology a while to grow on me (I couldn't figure out scrying at first at all - the explanations were NOT clear), so perhaps I will change, but I would play something else if I wanted to play a card game, not an MMO.

jaws343

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Something is missing here:

It is skill to know which cards are good and how to build a decent hand/pile. It is pure luck on whether you can do that once you know it.

Thus you need the first, but it is not enough.

I maintain my position that this was not a good addition for the game, even though a few vocal people will disagree. It is annoying that I am missing out on motifs I need/want, but such is life.

Perhaps I will fiddle with it later. It took Archeology a while to grow on me (I couldn't figure out scrying at first at all - the explanations were NOT clear), so perhaps I will change, but I would play something else if I wanted to play a card game, not an MMO.

I guess I just don't understand this sentiment. What about it makes it bad for the game? Some people dislike it? Or that it offers rewards? That you just don't like optional card games?

Should they just remove all rewards from the game because they may be in parts of the game that some players may not enjoy or want to do? Like, I have no intention of doing trial trifectas and expect to never receive those rewards even though I may want them. Should they just remove the rewards from that?

Why shouldn't the card game have unique, collectable and cosmetic rewards?

As to the skill portion of things. It absolutely is skill to know how to utilize even the lesser desired cards to your advantage. It is skill to know how to win utilizing every card in the decks in the right way, even when at a disadvantage, or strategically using the Patrons when necessary. The skill of the game is understanding how to win with the tools presented to you in any given match, no matter how favorable they are perceived.

Like, I am still not a big fan of the combined deck aspect of the game, kind of takes away the idea of actually building out a deck like normal deck building games, but there is still skill involved with the current setup.

bzz86

jaws343 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Something is missing here:

It is skill to know which cards are good and how to build a decent hand/pile. It is pure luck on whether you can do that once you know it.

Thus you need the first, but it is not enough.

I maintain my position that this was not a good addition for the game, even though a few vocal people will disagree. It is annoying that I am missing out on motifs I need/want, but such is life.

Perhaps I will fiddle with it later. It took Archeology a while to grow on me (I couldn't figure out scrying at first at all - the explanations were NOT clear), so perhaps I will change, but I would play something else if I wanted to play a card game, not an MMO.

I guess I just don't understand this sentiment. What about it makes it bad for the game? Some people dislike it? Or that it offers rewards? That you just don't like optional card games?

Should they just remove all rewards from the game because they may be in parts of the game that some players may not enjoy or want to do? Like, I have no intention of doing trial trifectas and expect to never receive those rewards even though I may want them. Should they just remove the rewards from that?

Why shouldn't the card game have unique, collectable and cosmetic rewards?

As to the skill portion of things. It absolutely is skill to know how to utilize even the lesser desired cards to your advantage. It is skill to know how to win utilizing every card in the decks in the right way, even when at a disadvantage, or strategically using the Patrons when necessary. The skill of the game is understanding how to win with the tools presented to you in any given match, no matter how favorable they are perceived.

Like, I am still not a big fan of the combined deck aspect of the game, kind of takes away the idea of actually building out a deck like normal deck building games, but there is still skill involved with the current setup.

Imagine playing the game with yourself.... So same skill level, same idea, same approach to the game.... Now is luck playing a part in you winning against you ? or is it still skill ?

Necrotech_Master

bzz86 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Something is missing here:

It is skill to know which cards are good and how to build a decent hand/pile. It is pure luck on whether you can do that once you know it.

Thus you need the first, but it is not enough.

I maintain my position that this was not a good addition for the game, even though a few vocal people will disagree. It is annoying that I am missing out on motifs I need/want, but such is life.

Perhaps I will fiddle with it later. It took Archeology a while to grow on me (I couldn't figure out scrying at first at all - the explanations were NOT clear), so perhaps I will change, but I would play something else if I wanted to play a card game, not an MMO.

I guess I just don't understand this sentiment. What about it makes it bad for the game? Some people dislike it? Or that it offers rewards? That you just don't like optional card games?

Should they just remove all rewards from the game because they may be in parts of the game that some players may not enjoy or want to do? Like, I have no intention of doing trial trifectas and expect to never receive those rewards even though I may want them. Should they just remove the rewards from that?

Why shouldn't the card game have unique, collectable and cosmetic rewards?

As to the skill portion of things. It absolutely is skill to know how to utilize even the lesser desired cards to your advantage. It is skill to know how to win utilizing every card in the decks in the right way, even when at a disadvantage, or strategically using the Patrons when necessary. The skill of the game is understanding how to win with the tools presented to you in any given match, no matter how favorable they are perceived.

Like, I am still not a big fan of the combined deck aspect of the game, kind of takes away the idea of actually building out a deck like normal deck building games, but there is still skill involved with the current setup.

Imagine playing the game with yourself.... So same skill level, same idea, same approach to the game.... Now is luck playing a part in you winning against you ? or is it still skill ?

i would rather there be some luck to change an outcome than purely deterministic, go play tic-tac-toe then and see how boring that gets

"the only winning move is not to play"

Rouz

Casdha wrote: »

..

So here's the deal with ToT. It's RNG because you can't form a strategy to defeat an opponents current strategy if no cards are dropping that actually let you win. The issue as stated before is balance. There's just too many "trash" and situational cards in the game that make it really hard to fight properly against a "good" card. To me here are what the good cards are. That's not to say other cards don't have a purpose. But to me, these are the cards that decide games in the end. Other cards may be good at buiding up decks, generating good, good candidates for sacrifices, etc. But to me, these are the cards that strategies form around.

1. Ansei - Hira's End + Conquest
2. Duke of Crows - All of them except the agents
3. Hlaalu - Currency Exchange + Marketplace/Embassy
4. Celarus - Honestly this is a pure support deck to me. It has its purpose which I'll discuss below. But I've never seen Celarus be a center piece of a ToT match
5. Rajhin - All agents + Twilight Reverly + Lullaby/Slumber
6. Red Eagle - Midnight Raid
7. Saint Pelin - Rally OR Armory (both if able of course, but a single one is also enough) + Volley
8. Orgnum - Patron spam, I mean there's not really much more to this patron lol. Cards are fairly balanced, patron is not.

Now the difference between all these "core" cards is how hard they are to accomplish. To properly execute the Ansei cards, they need a combo. Duke of cards needs to have multiple. Hlaalu is more focused on spamming patron and buying other expensive core cards. Rajhin needs to have multiple. Red eagle needs a combo. Saint Pelin really only needs a single rally or armory. Orgnum is orgnum. So someone going down the sain pelin route won't have to think as much as someone doing asnei or Rajhin. It's a very low skill floor deck too. Duke of crows is a similar situation. You get 3-4 duke cards that also have card pulls? That's a huge advantage. One that can happen very early. Mid night raid just needs a single combo which is easy to do with the default card + all the contracts. Or even multiple midnight raids which is a big win. Rajhin cards on their own aren't that good but need a fairly well built out deck. More built out than duke.

The rest of the cards in the entire game are there purely to suppor these cards. To use high gold generation to acquire more cards/more of these core cards. To use Celarus to manipulate your deck so that you pull the "core" cards more often without all the junk. To use ansei cards to move them to the top of your deck quickly. To remove tavern cards to try to find the core cards quickier. To use red eagle to delete cards you don't want/need so you pull

Now I've won games with every single of those strategies and lost against every single one. That's not to say there's no skill in understand the cards. People say its a 90% RNG game because at the top of the leaderboard, in the leaderboard bracket in general...everyone knows how to play. They understand the value each card provides (or lack there of). The RNG comes in when it becomes who can achieve those core cards first. I've found that once a core card is achieved, the opponent has about 2-5 rounds (rounds being 1 turn each player and the amount of rounds depends on which core card it is) to achieve some core cards also.

Now there are rare cases where both teams get core cards. I've been in those. After that it depends on using deck manipulation to pull core cards most frequently.

So when people say that's where the RNG is, they're not saying "Oh the game takes no knowledge". They're saying that there's a group of very high impact cards that essentially win the game. And the opponent needs to achieve cards of similar value quickly, else the player with the core card gets too far ahead to catch up in time.

Now again I'll reiterate, that's not saying every other card is pointless. There's quite a few really good cards that can be used to help set up these core card combos/repeated us, to achieve high gold generation/tavern clears to reliably buy core cards. Both those cards are the support, they don't win the games on their own.

As I've said before and will always say, I think a major reason this is such a big issue for people is because there's a lot of trash/situational cards and a tavern that doesn't move. As a result when one side gets a core advantage, its very easy for them to keep and for the opponent to be left with nothing. I've been on both sides of this equation. Some core cards, like hlaalu and crow, allow you make it much easier to acquire even MORE core cards. So the advantage just dominos into a giant snowball.

Casdha

If this game works as it should, RNG should shuffle the cards at the beginning of the match and place them in a table in random order numbered 1 to to whatever (not including starter cards). Then it should pull those in order from 1st to last (just like any shuffled deck in real life) under no circumstances should the dealer be able to pull cards in random order. Each person has an equal chance to get said cards depending on their or the the other persons moves. Under no circumstances should the shuffled deck be altered after the game has started unless all cards have been drawn and at that point the same type shuffle should happen again. The two patrons that can generate duplicate cards have no bearing on what comes from the Tavern.

Now all of this is out the window if they borrowed some code from That FB poker game (not saying the name to promote it, but you know the one).

Numbers taken from ESO-hub: 12 to 14 cards per deck (depending on deck) X 4 decks + 10 in the treasury

I know there are multiple copies of certain cards but the idea is a set number of cards in a deck dealt to the tavern.

p.s. I'd say it is just a matter of time before someone makes an app for PC (if they haven't already) that will count cards for you.