Just allow RNG W/L, since that is all ToT is anyway

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AwakeOhSleeper
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So, Tales of Tribute, you can claim that there is strategy, and mechanics, and an ability to win being the better player… but that is simply, blatantly, and unequivocally not true. It’s RNG, plain and simple: And HONESTLY it’s usually who goes second, but definitely who gets the first GOOD card. Just one, that’s all it takes, and the match is over; only it’s not, you still need to suffer through 15 to 30 minutes of the loss that happened 2 turns in.

Since this is an INARGUABLE FACT, is there any way to just let an RNG coin flip decide the winner at the beginning of the match? I have no desire to sit through as many hours as ‘completion’ (whatever that maybe) or farming is going to take when this RNG monstrosity could literally just state who wins when it decides such… AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH!

Edited by AwakeOhSleeper on June 23, 2022 11:17AM
  • TheDarkRuler
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    Or just let the daily quests proceed no matter win or loss. There are days i am spending more than 1 hour to achieve one win because of the randomness of the game.
  • NeuroticPixels
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    Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

    And I also agree that the dailies shouldn’t progress with only wins. At least the one against other players. I’m sure they could put in a failsafe that wouldn’t allow it to progress if the player conceded, because obviously that could be abused.
    Check out the ReShade I made: Crispy Sharpness
  • Casdha
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    It is why when I get the chance I love to play games without Duke or Pelin and I never pick those two decks myself.
    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%

  • bzz86
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    Indeed. The worse is when you get an opponent that actually takes the whole turn time to play. The game takes ages and then the RNG can go either way..... This game is a poor design. Each player should have their own deck and be able to play games vs equally matched opponents. That way at least the RNG would be build around your own deck.

    ToT is the worse thing that has happened to ESO.
  • Skvysh
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    bzz86 wrote: »
    This game is a poor design. Each player should have their own deck and be able to play games vs equally matched opponents. That way at least the RNG would be build around your own deck.

    You're talking about a completely different genre of card games (i.e. classic CCG/TCG PvP games with constructed decks, like TES:L). Whereas here we have a standard PvP deck builder which functions differently. The genre is well established, going back 10+ years with games seeing deck building as part of - or the only - mechanic in the game and it works well.

    The issues you're seeing are with the balance of the game, not the design.
  • AwakeOhSleeper
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    Skvysh wrote: »
    The issues you're seeing are with the balance of the game, not the design.

    THIS!!!!!!! But, this is just par for the ZoS course, they truly obviously gave ZERO thought to balance, ZERO thought to putting leads and stuff behind a trash-wall, ZERO thought to the fact that this is so broken with no foreseeable way to fix that it will die and thusly make aforementioned leads literally impossible to get… and EVEN IF (IF, IF, IF) they do attempt to balance it, I’m sure they’ll just do like they do everything else: Not balance it at all, just nerf it into oblivion so that it’s just useless code in an already bloated game.

    I saw “Card Game” and prayed that it wouldn’t be a large chunk of content, and I thought to myself… “this is them ‘jumping the shark’, they don’t care anymore… all bets are off”. But, it’s a HUGE chunk of content; and it’s terrible… and, alas, they DON’T seem to care anymore.
    Edited by AwakeOhSleeper on June 23, 2022 1:18PM
  • Faulgor
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    Sometimes. I've had a lot of games that lasted for quite a while without a clear favorite to win, and were quite close even at the end.
    Other times, the first 2 rolls on the tavern are just too oppressive. Last game I picked up 2 good Pelin cards - the +4 and +5 power ones - and knew it was over for my opponent. I was just spamming Rajin patron until the end to annoy him further, it was so brutal.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Rouz
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Sometimes. I've had a lot of games that lasted for quite a while without a clear favorite to win, and were quite close even at the end.
    Other times, the first 2 rolls on the tavern are just too oppressive. Last game I picked up 2 good Pelin cards - the +4 and +5 power ones - and knew it was over for my opponent. I was just spamming Rajin patron until the end to annoy him further, it was so brutal.

    Yeah I think its a two part issue. Card balance where some cards are super super impactful, other cards (including neutral cards) are just useless. The second part is that the tavern becomes stale. One person gets an advantage, then refuses to pull. Which effectively locks out the opponent from catching up against the advantage. The counter to this is mainly hlaalu and celarus so that you manipulate the tavern + generate a ton of gold to buy multiple things at once. But even that requires a bit of luck in that you hope you get the cards that allow you to do that. A single card rotate would introduce more RNG to it, I will admit. But I'd prefer that over the current turtle meta we have. And its this game's RNG that pushes up the skill floor. Everyone has a close chance of winning no matter how good/bad they are thanks to the RNG of the tavern. A single card rotate would just help achieve this more while still giving players a chance to build a deck to strategize/use their skill with. The current tavern system that awards inaction/sitting there.
  • Gundug
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    [snip]

    [snip]

    Like most things in this game, I think the card game has potential, but is somewhat half-baked. Until the developers hopefully very carefully tune the game so overly powerful strategies are reduced to reasonable power, while still being useful, we will have to deal with the usual frustration in all PVP of players taking advantage of the system. Assuming balance becomes as miserable as combat PVP, I expect this will be another part of the game only a few hardcore or unaware new players engage in, as far as player vs. player, at least, which I hope does not happen.

    [edited for baiting & to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 24, 2022 3:21PM
  • dmnqwk
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    So, Tales of Tribute, you can claim that there is strategy, and mechanics, and an ability to win being the better player… but that is simply, blatantly, and unequivocally not true. It’s RNG, plain and simple: And HONESTLY it’s usually who goes second, but definitely who gets the first GOOD card. Just one, that’s all it takes, and the match is over; only it’s not, you still need to suffer through 15 to 30 minutes of the loss that happened 2 turns in.

    Since this is an INARGUABLE FACT, is there any way to just let an RNG coin flip decide the winner at the beginning of the match? I have no desire to sit through as many hours as ‘completion’ (whatever that maybe) or farming is going to take when this RNG monstrosity could literally just state who wins when it decides such… AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MATCH!

    Hi there, I'd like to argue the fact of 'first good card wins' if I may? Thanks <3 I'll briefly go over the points listed below in the hopes to explain to you why 'the first good card doesn't have to win the match'

    1. Tavern Manipulation
    2. Deck Manipulation
    3. Understanding which cards are good in any given environment
    4. Patron usage.

    Tavern Manipulation
    Seeing more cards first definitely increases your ability to win. A lot of people suggest going second is a huge advantage, but the person going second is 5 cards seen behind. To get good cards, you generally want to see them first right? So this means spending carefully on the right cards is very important - it's easy to see a draw card for 2 coins, when you have 2 coins... but why would you buy it to show your opponent a card they now get free access to? Unless you're doing it for a chance to combo/draw a Pounce and Profit etc then stop showing your opponent cards for free!

    On top of this, consider drafting some Tavern destruction - Prophesy costs 4 and plays for 2 coins 2 destruction and this is a godsend of a card - The fact that, not only can you destroy cards you dont wish to buy that your opponent wants... it has coins on it to let you destroy 2 AND BUY THE FRESH CARDS! Would you consider taking this over the Armory? Maybe, but not often.

    Deck Manipulation
    Your deck begins with 10 cards. You pick up The Armory and now you have 11 cards. You pick up Customs Seizure (thinking it'll let you get an armory if it appears) and you've on 12 cards. By going up to 12 cards you're now seeing Armory about 2 in 5 turns.
    Alternatively, the other player Ragpicks and writs, then gets a Scrying Globe and uses Bonfire. This means they are down to 8 cards, 2 of which are worth 2 coins. While you got that fancy card at the start, they're setting up for later turns (and quite nicely). By Turn 10 you might have Rally and Armory if your 20 card deck (seeing both every 4 turns, maybe sooner if you combo rally) but they're running at 9 cards with midnight raid coming up almost. every. turn.

    The Right Card
    Sometimes cards are only good in certain scenarios. I mentioned Customs Seizure earlier because a lot of times you're simply buying it because there's nothing good in the tavern. At the time of purchase, it's a bad card. But in a Maomer race it's amazing - and in a Hlaaru sac strat (where you use Hlaaru cards once then begin sacrificing them once they've been used once to get another card, allowing Hlaaru Patron use each turn) it's fantastic. But outside of that situation, the card itself isn't that good. Scratch/Murder of Crows is an amazing card.... assuming your opponent hasn't drafted so much tavern manipulation you're unable to buy enough to get Crow Combos going. Then the card becomes mediocre at best, bad at worst.

    Patron Usage
    This one is too complicated to do briefly, but absolutely understanding how each Patron is more powerful than the cards will help you stop the rot and avoid the belief that one good card wrecks everything. From correct Treasury usage, to when to begin Sorc King spam affects the 'rng of the tavern' considerably!

    I appreciate the RNG can work against you, and there will be times when you feel like you can't win... but as someone who has absolutely seen the opponent get a turn 1 Armory and still defeated them comfortably.. it is totally doable! (And when I say turn 1 Armory, they also ended up getting a Rally later too haha. But I had to pivot to Hlaaru sacrifice early on to beat them)
  • Rouz
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    Those strategies still require RNG. I mean when you're pushing on the leaderboard, everyone knows how to play. Everyone knows the strats. ToT is not that complicated of a game. The tavern's RNG lowers the skill ceiling significantly and allows basically anyone to win because 3-4 draws per game usually decide it. This is further magnified by the poor balance job on duke and pelin or the orgnum patron. If someone chooses duke, you have to choose pelin or orgnum. And vice versa. Even then its RNG on who gets the better cards, but those three just increase the chances of a both sides getting OP crap. I just had a ranked game where there were 2 luxury exports + a currency exchange on round 1 tavern. Guess who won that game? They got 2 luxury exports and a currency exchange by their third turn. They'd basically buy whatever they wanted after that. I tried to play the cards I was dealt, but thanks to bad RNG and bad balance it screwed me over. I had to spend the entire game trying to play catch up to them where they'd could rotate half the tavern board and still be able to purchase anything they wanted.

    Is it possible to counter this OP crap? Yes, if you get lucky and/or the other opponent gets really really unlucky. The RNG wouldn't be nearly as bad if cards were properly balanced. By the power/prestiege generation of duke, pelin, and orgnum's patron ON THEIR OWN is absolutely off the charts. Basically every single other deck is supporting to those three cards. And people always say "Oh well bla bla bla I fought someone who got early good cards and I was able to come back with a strat with green/orange/black". But they always leave out that this "strat" they used also containd duke/pelin cards or they used orgnum patron. Ansei can be good, requires a ton of set up to be able to reach the potential of pelin/duke/orgnum. Every time I see people say they won with an ansei strat, it wasn't anseis power generation that was the main thing. They used the CD manipulation to set up duke/pelin cards on top of what green cards they had. And yes I had some games where I won purely with the Ansei power generation combos. But the opponent got unlucky. They didn't get any pelin cards. They didn't get any good crow cards. I got lucky early on, denied what I could, bought what I could, and reaped the benefits of the opponenet not being able to pull good cards.

    They shoulda done a balance pass before they did this season. Personally it devalues the trophies knowing that season 1's balance was done poorly and had these cheese strats. It doesn't surprise me either that I'm getting 3-7 min queues on ranked vs at most 1.5 mins at unranked. People get in the top 10% and don't want to play anymore because they know its not about skill. They get a bad hand and boom; you're now down 50 positions and may take you days to get back up.
    Edited by Rouz on June 24, 2022 5:07AM
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

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    Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 24, 2022 3:28PM
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  • AwakeOhSleeper
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    And I just conceded a match in the third round, because it was obvious even that early on… and I’m slapped with a desertion penalty and not allowed to queue? I understand battle grounds or dungeons. But this is by definition concession, and shouldn’t be penalized.
  • tomofhyrule
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    And I just conceded a match in the third round, because it was obvious even that early on… and I’m slapped with a desertion penalty and not allowed to queue? I understand battle grounds or dungeons. But this is by definition concession, and shouldn’t be penalized.

    Which means you also denied your opponent their quest completion as well, so now they still have to queue again to get their daily done.

    I understand why they set the quests to not count opponent forfeit as a win (to avoid people just dropping instantly to complete the quests), but there needs to be some check so that if someone spends 30 minutes in a match and then the opponent concedes that it will count as a win for the daily.

    I don't play much competitive card games, but I've heard that it's common practice in the CCG community to concede a match when it's clear they're going to lose, but in ESO a concession counts as a ragequit. They need to maybe make a check that if a match has gone on for X number of turns, then the concession no longer counts as a ragequit and instead becomes a full victory for the opponent.
  • SilverBride
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    Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

    I had the same observation. Certain cards from certain decks are almost always a sure win. I have learned that the only way to win is to build a deck with as many of these cards as possible and try to get several of them to play in the same hand by moving them to the top of the play pile.

    If building a deck and setting up a huge play is how the game is won, ok. But it should be possible with more than one deck and should be able to be countered.
    PCNA
  • Youmee
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    It's been since release I try different strategies, collecting various decks and upgrading the cards. Yes the other strategies can work but I would say out of 10 games played I win 2-3 and the others are lost. Some due to my stupid moves ir when I get distracted but mostly to old good Duke combos and Pelin cards
    Certain cards from certain decks are almost always a sure win. I have learned that the only way to win is to build a deck with as many of these cards as possible and try to get several of them to play in the same hand by moving them to the top of the play pile.

    And it is just getting boring, do you feel it too?
  • SilverBride
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    So, Tales of Tribute, you can claim that there is strategy, and mechanics, and an ability to win being the better player… but that is simply, blatantly, and unequivocally not true.

    A player can have RNG favor them but unless they know what to do with the decks and cards in play they can and will lose.

    ...is there any way to just let an RNG coin flip decide the winner at the beginning of the match?

    This would not be fair to players who took the time and put in the effort to learn how to play. What ToT really needs is more balanced decks.
    Edited by SilverBride on June 24, 2022 7:51PM
    PCNA
  • Rouz
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    Youmee wrote: »

    And it is just getting boring, do you feel it too?

    I know I have. I just got pissed off cause I'm over here trying to be competitive and get on the leaderboard. Doesn't help that I've been playing it almost every day since release, so I think I just got burnt out. But playing every game where myself or the opponent wins thanks to BS from Pelin, Duke, or Orgnum has gotten tiring fast. But that's how PvP works I guess. People find some annoying meta and everyone runs it. I won 4 games in a row, then lost 4 in a row. Went from position 50 somethin to now like 200 lol. Don't remember all 4 loses, but the final 3 were this.

    First one was pretty close until about 8 minutes in. Rally got on the board. Opponent got it. I tried to compensate by playing what I could, but barely any power generators have been dropping (hlaalu, ansei, pelin, and red eagle). 2 ansei power generator dropped during the game. So far it had just been the gate red card and 2 archer volleys. It was close, I had 1 of the anseis and 1 of the volleys. So it was a close game. I think the opponenet had a 4 point lead. After he got rally? 3 turns late he had a 16 point lead. Eventually he won because power generators were just not dropping despite my best efforts to get the tavern moving and actually put up a fight.

    Second one was again, a close game. Hlaalu, red eagle, duke, and ansei. Power generators were split up evenly that have dropped so far. Opponent had bought a few hlaalu councilers. Well he was able to get them both in one turn in his hand. On top of some other gold generators. So a card I bought got replaced by a crow scratch. So he bought that. Then it got replaced by another duke card, so he used a council to claim it. This one spot in the tavern spawned 4 duke cards in a row. My opponent went from having 3 duke cards to 7 in one turn. Immediately he started sacrificing things to set up a duke wombo combo as soon as he could. I knew it was coming. I tried to build my power as fast as I could and "counter it" (counter being just trying to get lucky). 4 turns later, he gets it. The game was like 15 to 18 with him in the lead. He generates 12 power and 19 gold in.one.round. There was nothing I could've done against that. Used the crow patron and he went from 18 prestige to over 40.

    Third one was the first pick got 2 freaken luxury exports than the currency exchange. By the time I was able to even come close to enough gold generation to get the tavern to move and buy a replacement, he already had a 13 point lead and built out deck.

    Like personally I absolutely loathe the neutral cards. They're super situational. There is always like 2-3 on the board that nobody touches for 4 rounds+. They help in certain situations, but patron cards are the major winners. I wish neutral cards had just a single slot. In the tavern or on their own. And that single slot rotates every round. That way the only things inside the tavern row are patron cards. Things that can actually win games, enact strategies, be fun to play. Or something that just gets the tavern moving.

    I will always say that balance is definitely a factor in the current issues and stale meta/gameplay loop. But the tavern design is exacerbating the issue 10 fold. It extends games, it reduces the chances of even matches, it rewards inaction, etc. Just overall not producing healthy gameplay in its current state. I like the concept of the tavern. I can see being preferable over traditional "each person has a deck" design. But something really needs to change with it so that matches aren't just one sided or decided by a few select cards that are the current meta.
    Edited by Rouz on June 24, 2022 7:01PM
  • Jusey1
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    And HONESTLY it’s usually who goes second, but definitely who gets the first GOOD card. Just one, that’s all it takes,

    I have won matches where my opponent has gotten multiple good cards from the Pelin deck (such as Armory & Rally). RNG helps, but strategy is still far more important overall. Knowing how to maximize the usage of your own decks that you picked and playing well overall has a huge effect, especially in the long run. Don't give up, just practice and get better.
  • Vaoh
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    Rouz wrote: »
    Those strategies still require RNG. I mean when you're pushing on the leaderboard, everyone knows how to play. Everyone knows the strats. ToT is not that complicated of a game. The tavern's RNG lowers the skill ceiling significantly and allows basically anyone to win because 3-4 draws per game usually decide it. This is further magnified by the poor balance job on duke and pelin or the orgnum patron. If someone chooses duke, you have to choose pelin or orgnum. And vice versa. Even then its RNG on who gets the better cards, but those three just increase the chances of a both sides getting OP crap. I just had a ranked game where there were 2 luxury exports + a currency exchange on round 1 tavern. Guess who won that game? They got 2 luxury exports and a currency exchange by their third turn. They'd basically buy whatever they wanted after that. I tried to play the cards I was dealt, but thanks to bad RNG and bad balance it screwed me over. I had to spend the entire game trying to play catch up to them where they'd could rotate half the tavern board and still be able to purchase anything they wanted.

    Is it possible to counter this OP crap? Yes, if you get lucky and/or the other opponent gets really really unlucky. The RNG wouldn't be nearly as bad if cards were properly balanced. By the power/prestiege generation of duke, pelin, and orgnum's patron ON THEIR OWN is absolutely off the charts. Basically every single other deck is supporting to those three cards. And people always say "Oh well bla bla bla I fought someone who got early good cards and I was able to come back with a strat with green/orange/black". But they always leave out that this "strat" they used also containd duke/pelin cards or they used orgnum patron. Ansei can be good, requires a ton of set up to be able to reach the potential of pelin/duke/orgnum. Every time I see people say they won with an ansei strat, it wasn't anseis power generation that was the main thing. They used the CD manipulation to set up duke/pelin cards on top of what green cards they had. And yes I had some games where I won purely with the Ansei power generation combos. But the opponent got unlucky. They didn't get any pelin cards. They didn't get any good crow cards. I got lucky early on, denied what I could, bought what I could, and reaped the benefits of the opponenet not being able to pull good cards.

    They shoulda done a balance pass before they did this season. Personally it devalues the trophies knowing that season 1's balance was done poorly and had these cheese strats. It doesn't surprise me either that I'm getting 3-7 min queues on ranked vs at most 1.5 mins at unranked. People get in the top 10% and don't want to play anymore because they know its not about skill. They get a bad hand and boom; you're now down 50 positions and may take you days to get back up.

    Absolutely this. The day I did the tutorial to learn ToT and familiarize myself with Ranked, achievements, the questline, etc, I immediately grinded Ranked matches to get my Rubedite achievement. I learn fast and am generally good at this sort of stuff.

    I am NOT trying to get that achievement when everyone has a full understanding of the strats and the only factor is luck, or when people unlock all the decks.
  • kevkj
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    The unfortunate part about RNG is that you tend to only face your opponents once or twice. I personally have never got the same opponent more than twice. With the level of RNG present in ToT, the player with a better understanding of mechanics would still prevail more often in an extended series of games.

    RNG helps prevent ToT and deck builders like it from becoming a solved game. Though theoretically possible with software for sure, anyone who claims they have found a sure-fire way to win EVERY game is just being facetious (The Orgnum video in another thread is as close as it gets, it mattered little what their opponent did). The variability in Tavern cards forces players to make judgement calls on current value vs potential when it comes to purchases and actions.

    RNG only really affects the outcome of a game when both players are equal or close to equal. If you are losing more often than you win (or god forbid losing to AI), it's not RNG or any balance issue. You simply don't understand the game as well as your opponent (and refuse to adapt).

    It may not sound like it but I'm generally in agreement that in Rubedite, RNG decides most games because everyone knows what they are doing. I think it's worth making a distinction between this and some of the less skilled/newer players who latch on to the RNG issue to explain away all their defeats.

    TL;DR: Yes, RNG is the difference maker in most if not all Rubedite games. No, you haven't been stuck in Ebony for 50 ranked games because of RNG. However, still think some RNG good for game.
    Edited by kevkj on June 26, 2022 1:15AM
  • bzz86
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    Skvysh wrote: »

    You're talking about a completely different genre of card games (i.e. classic CCG/TCG PvP games with constructed decks, like TES:L). Whereas here we have a standard PvP deck builder which functions differently. The genre is well established, going back 10+ years with games seeing deck building as part of - or the only - mechanic in the game and it works well.

    The issues you're seeing are with the balance of the game, not the design.

    Mate, I think what I tried to say is that I dont like either.
  • Rouz
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    kevkj wrote: »
    ...

    Yeah I definitely don't think RNG needs to be completely removed. RNG is a major foundational brick of card games. ToT did a few things right. The tavern system and shared deck system heavily helps prevent P2W and one player from having a huge knowledge advantage when building a deck. Everyone is on the same playing field. The heavy RNG overall just helps lower the skill ceiling significantly. It doesn't matter if you've been playing for a day or years, as long as you have a basic understanding on how the game works/decks work/patrons work; you have a pretty equal chance of winning. Like yesterday I went on a winning spree. I started out the day in position like 800 and something in ranked because I went on a 4 game losing streak the previous day. I ended up fighting people in the top 50 of course (since not as many people queue). Not all of them were, but 3 out of the 5 games I won were with people in the top 50. If you were to just look at the rankings, you'd think there's no way I could win with 750 positions between us. But nope. I got some good draws, opponent got some bad ones. We were both playing well. We both understood the game, what the cards did, valuable ones, etc. I know I simply won because I was able to get a few major game changing cards and the opponents were not able to. I'm finally back in the top 10% again thanks to that win streak and I know those 3 I faced probably had their score destroyed thanks to losing someone that low in the bracket. But that's just the way the game works. The RNG really helps level the playing field. Its quite genius if you ask me because it makes the game significantly more accessible to people. And in a MMORPG that's super important. I just think they need to add something that gets the tavern moving if people aren't drawing cards. Help speed up games and give players more of a chance to enact a strategy instead of spamming the same 2-5 cards to win as soon as you can.
  • bzz86
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    Rouz wrote: »

    Yeah I definitely don't think RNG needs to be completely removed. RNG is a major foundational brick of card games. ToT did a few things right. The tavern system and shared deck system heavily helps prevent P2W and one player from having a huge knowledge advantage when building a deck. Everyone is on the same playing field. The heavy RNG overall just helps lower the skill ceiling significantly. It doesn't matter if you've been playing for a day or years, as long as you have a basic understanding on how the game works/decks work/patrons work; you have a pretty equal chance of winning. Like yesterday I went on a winning spree. I started out the day in position like 800 and something in ranked because I went on a 4 game losing streak the previous day. I ended up fighting people in the top 50 of course (since not as many people queue). Not all of them were, but 3 out of the 5 games I won were with people in the top 50. If you were to just look at the rankings, you'd think there's no way I could win with 750 positions between us. But nope. I got some good draws, opponent got some bad ones. We were both playing well. We both understood the game, what the cards did, valuable ones, etc. I know I simply won because I was able to get a few major game changing cards and the opponents were not able to. I'm finally back in the top 10% again thanks to that win streak and I know those 3 I faced probably had their score destroyed thanks to losing someone that low in the bracket. But that's just the way the game works. The RNG really helps level the playing field. Its quite genius if you ask me because it makes the game significantly more accessible to people. And in a MMORPG that's super important. I just think they need to add something that gets the tavern moving if people aren't drawing cards. Help speed up games and give players more of a chance to enact a strategy instead of spamming the same 2-5 cards to win as soon as you can.

    It is not P2W if you cant buy any cards.... I am not even sure you understand RNG. How are your chances of wining equal if RNG exists? The chances are based on the luck of getting the right cards at the right moment. If you get all the good cards in the deck cause you earned them - its skill based game. If you get the good cards cause they pop on the table when its your turn - that is RNG. What is important in MMO or RPG or MMORPG is skill and knowledge of the game not RNG mate. If you base anything around pure luck you might just as well play russian roulette.
  • AwakeOhSleeper
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    bzz86 wrote: »
    What is important in MMO or RPG or MMORPG is skill and knowledge of the game not RNG mate. If you base anything around pure luck you might just as well play russian roulette.

    This is essentially my original thought process. The only real commodity in an mmo is your actual time, and thusly, if an aspect of the game exists that I don’t truly have any control over with my skill as a player: then at least allow me to save my time by instantly winning or losing with the same level of control that I would have had by spending 30 minutes on one RNG-based game mini-game.

  • shadyjane62
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    Cannot understand why anybody would waste valuable playing time to this card game. It isn't worth it.
  • FlopsyPrince
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    THIS!!!!!!! But, this is just par for the ZoS course, they truly obviously gave ZERO thought to balance, ZERO thought to putting leads and stuff behind a trash-wall, ZERO thought to the fact that this is so broken with no foreseeable way to fix that it will die and thusly make aforementioned leads literally impossible to get… and EVEN IF (IF, IF, IF) they do attempt to balance it, I’m sure they’ll just do like they do everything else: Not balance it at all, just nerf it into oblivion so that it’s just useless code in an already bloated game.

    I saw “Card Game” and prayed that it wouldn’t be a large chunk of content, and I thought to myself… “this is them ‘jumping the shark’, they don’t care anymore… all bets are off”. But, it’s a HUGE chunk of content; and it’s terrible… and, alas, they DON’T seem to care anymore.

    Are leads now behind playing the card game?
    PC
    PS4/PS5
  • EnerG
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    Im not sure what you mean by its rng, all card games are rng. The deck is shuffled, of course counting cards and making sure your cooldownpile is small and efficient or large and boisterious is a skill of alot of card game.
  • bzz86
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    EnerG wrote: »
    Im not sure what you mean by its rng, all card games are rng. The deck is shuffled, of course counting cards and making sure your cooldownpile is small and efficient or large and boisterious is a skill of alot of card game.

    You cannot talk about a skill when something is RNG based. What people in this topic talk about is that the game has no balance. You can have all the cards unlocked and play with someone who plays this game first time and they will win. All that cause the cards they pick are great and the ones that stay on the table for you to choose are bad. If the RNG would be based around your own cards - you could at least build a deck of cards you want to choose from. But cause the cards are being mixed in with your opponent wining is mostly luck.
  • Sweetpea704
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    Sadly, I agree. I still have fun with ToT. But there are games where I see players get certain cards and I’m like, “Great. They’ve won.” when we only just got started. I still try my hardest and try to be crafty, but still usually lose when I notice them obtaining certain cards. Ones that come to mind are the red “armory” and “rally” cards.

    And I also agree that the dailies shouldn’t progress with only wins. At least the one against other players. I’m sure they could put in a failsafe that wouldn’t allow it to progress if the player conceded, because obviously that could be abused.

    Rally and armory aren't the best cards. Learn to play the blue deck. ;) I'd tell you more, but I don't want to give away all my secrets.
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