Oakensoul is ruining the PVP experience, and needs to be balanced ASAP.

TechMaybeHic

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

. (even the possibility of a no proc PvP Duel/Battleground shouldn’t be ruled out.)

I think the ideal situation for Battlegrounds is, two queues:

1. Ranked (as in strict MMR), Solo Only, Death Match Only, No Proc
2. Not ranked, Group, All Modes, All Sets

We have too many different rule sets as is. Really need to get down to 1. Either everything is balanced or attempted to be to fit all the games scenarios; or it isn't. They split up rules and all feedback on balance is skewed based on what different ruleset different players play on.

Frankly; I'm not sure they are putting much effort in balancing the last few patches. A lot of stuff they nerf lately are things they just added or buffed just at a previous update. Just gives the illusion of change.

ArctosCethlenn

Ballermfrau wrote: »

You must be joking to call an item which is accessible to everybody P2W. P2W is something different and not part of an expansion.

Every MMO must be P2W with your assumptions.

unlike many mmos, the expansions aren't a mandatory purchase to continue playing the game, so yeah introducing an incredibly strong item behind a $40 paywall is P2W. Pay money, get stronger stuff than someone who doesn't or can't pay money is the definition of pay to win. No one should feel like they have to buy one of eso's expansions in order to be competitive in base game content.

Pepegrillos wrote: »

I don't mind new or casual players becoming more dangerous thanks to Oakensoul. That will probably end up hurting 1vXrs in the long run. But frankly, no MMORPG that intends to stay around can balance with the aim of keeping 1vX afloat.

The item honestly doesn't make new or casual players more threatening because they still don't really know what they're doing, but it DOES make an experienced player who is now running around fully raid buffed extremely oppressive to fight.

blktauna

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

Because the issue is, and always has been...cloak

lol that thing that doesn't even work half the time? uhhh no.

I'd personally like to slow down the 5 high uptime corrosive dks that miraculously run me down and whip me to death while i am on a speed build. Just sayin

goldenarcher1

Sergeant's Mail + Storm Master + Oaken ring on Nightblade using Inferno heavies from stealth is hard hitting indeed.

Its a strange game these days as my "stamblade"now can just dump all attribute points into magic and pretty much perma-cloak as well as good utime on Mist if needed.

I guess it really is elder staves online.

MEBengalsFan2001

How I would fix the oakensoul ring.

1) Make it PVE only
2) If the Devs don't want to make it PVE only make it so that you get the buffs for 10 seconds with a 30 second cool down.

DrSlaughtr

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

Because the issue is, and always has been...cloak

I wasn't aware DKs could cloak.

AdamLAD

Ring should never of been invented

mav983

It’s just a different toy to play with. Even if it doesn’t catch a nerf, a good 2-bar setup is competitive with it. To be honest, heal stacking ball groups are the most toxic part of PvP right now.

Rohamad_Ali

Light Attack Meta , Proc Set Meta , Heavy Attack Meta , Tank Meta , Ultimate Meta , We've seen it all here . Who's in charge of PvP now ? Is Wheels still here or Wrobel ?

aurelius_fx

cute thread but they still need to sell high isle

Syrusthevirus187

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

Because the issue is, and always has been...cloak

I wasn't aware DKs could cloak.

It was a response to ganking. Which is 90% night blades. You know, the reason hardly anyone plays Imperial city.

PhoenixGrey

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

Because the issue is, and always has been...cloak

I wasn't aware DKs could cloak.

They can't but they also don't have a get out of jail free card

Akylles

I'm no master PvP elite uber player here, but I have been playing since beta, and I've always been dabbling around in PvP in Cyro. I'm really not one to jump on any of the "nerf this!' or "nerf that!" bandwagons, even though over the years there have been plenty of things that were imbalanced and a pretty hefty grievance.

Part of a 'trend' I guess I would call it with respect to recent imbalances (as others have mentioned DC, hrothgar, plaguebreak) is that an item that was meant to help people against something ends up getting hijacked by that very thing. DC was gonna help us against zergs: well, guess what, the most common time I die from DC is from ball groups spamming necro ulti on it (Yes, I know the defenses against it, and sometimes they work just fine, other times you're F'd no matter what you're doing). This ring seems to be another case in this pattern, where these crazy gankers are even crazier, these unkillable DKs are even more unkillable, etc. So, definitely agree with others that have posted (though not always politely or eloquently) that the problems with this ring are interacting with preexisting balancing issues.

Nevertheless, I would have to say that for the most part I would also lend my agreement with the OP. I may perhaps have some disagreement with the points centering around assumptions of players' skills when they kill you while wearing the ring compared to yours, but I don't watch your stream (or anyone else's, no offence intended at all) and don't really know the particulars of the situations to which you are specifically referring (i.e., the exact fights that lead to the exasperation).

Having plenty of builds that don't use this, and some that do, I would say that the biggest issue is certainly the crazy ulti generation, and the big ole crits: major heroism and major force. These two buffs on their own, as others have mentioned, have to be built around, played around, and it is unfair to just get them constantly, even with penalties applied as they are. Minor force would be acceptable to me, as this is something I could build in (various skills make it accessible), so it makes sense that I am getting this buff free while eliminating having to slot a skill for it, and in return I lose skill slots. Minor heroism still might end up being a bit problematic for the reasons React has identified, but we might just have to wait and see on that.

There are lots of positives to the ring that I wouldn't want to see nerfed, personally. I think having the major protection (which you could otherwise get by simply slotting Revealing Flare), the minor regen buffs, the normal weapon buffs you could get from skills or pots, etc., are all really nice, and a fair compensation for having an entire bar removed. Remember that removing the bar isn't only the skills removed, but the potential weapons themselves (arena weapons, backbar defending buff for healing, etc.), so I definitely wouldn't agree with the more 'extreme' nerf calls like removing it entirely, changing the nature of the buffs based on Battle Cry, etc.

When using it on a NB, if I get caught in the open, I'm squished. Period. Yes, I can gank better when I actually set things up correctly, but I'm not insta-ganking people that I wouldn't have otherwise killed very quickly (squishies with 20k hp *giggles*). It pumps up the jam on the offense, but I will still fall victim to the same weaknesses I also had before as a NB. On a templar, it is a nice feature as I can get away with a one-bar build nicely, but again, if I'm caught in the open to multiple people, I still go down. Sometimes pretty hard. There were advantages to having that extra backbar on the templar that can be problematic when using the ring, so this trade-off feels relatively fair to me. Except, as OP and others have noted, the ultimate generation is ridiculous, and running Major Force all the time just means that a ton of people stacked impen for nothing, as they're still getting hit with massive crits.

Also, I hate caluurion. Like....so much.

Just wanted to throw my two cents in there. It's quite a polarizing mythic! I just hope the nerf hammer doesn't fall on it crazy hard. There's a decent amount of fair trade-offs with the ring (not getting into the P2W part in terms of fairness here though), and it's definitely not some instant god-mode as some people in cyro keep decrying it to be; except in those circumstances where, as I mentioned earlier, it is interacting with previous imbalances (e.g., class-based ones) like React has mentioned regarding the corrosive armor uptime. A well thought out post on OPs part, I'd say, though maybe put less emphasis on the assumptions of player skill, because the rest of what you had there was actually enough justification on its own

geonsocal

I think player pvp playstyle makes a huge difference in the perspective people may have regarding the item...

i'm a casual player, I have 17 toons set to fight across 2 servers, spend around 20 to 30 hours per week playing, mostly in grey host...

I like joining in zone chat but rarely if ever group...my "playstyle" is random solo potato (bit of an AP leecher at that)...

here's the deal - I don't miss constantly staying buffed or bar swapping, Oakensoul makes the game infinitely more relaxing and enjoyable to play...

Solariken

I don't have any problem with this ring in its current form.

It really just exacerbates the glaring balance problems that already exist which ZOS can't be bothered to address (Corrosive, Caluurion, cross healing in general, Crystal Weap, vampire).

IZZEFlameLash

Solariken wrote: »

I don't have any problem with this ring in its current form.

It really just exacerbates the glaring balance problems that already exist which ZOS can't be bothered to address (Corrosive, Caluurion, cross healing in general, Crystal Weap, vampire).

Agreed. Most of the issues were here pre-Oakensoul. Oakensoul is just a convenient scapegoat right now. It is not a god mode item by any means. If Oakensoul gave something that was unique to it so that it can be stacked with all the other major/minor buffs, then yeah it is super OP. But in PvP, many classes need more than just 1 bar if you want a fighting chance against anyone competent.

ATomiX69

ShadowProc wrote: »

The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

Ah yes, an item, thats behind a paywall, should encourage new / bad players to shell out 40$ and 3 hours of their time to get a ring which completely cripples their build and discourages them from learning how actual builds play in PvP in return to take less damage, do more damage and have their panic button (defensive ultimates) more often.

What also comes to mind is that they didnt consider the broken combos people could pull off with an item like that because it turns out, giving 100% uptime on some of the most important buffs isnt healthy for a PvP environment.

Finally, for most of the PvDoor enjoyers and "outnumber by factor 10 or run"-gamers, having 1 bar less is an advantage by itself already, at least they cant get caught on the wrong bar and on top of that they no longer need to slot the same 6 abilties on both bars.

StarOfElyon

taugrim wrote: »

I've been eating a lot of 15-16k Molten Whips on a regular basis now, e.g.:


This is with 26.5k - 30k armor.

MagDK has become even more faceroll compared to pre-High Isle.

Basically any class that has a strong self-heal (e.g. Coagulating Blood), strong spammable (e.g. Molten Whip, Crystal Fragments, etc) can run 1-bar with Oakensoul while not giving up anything, especially if they have access to an ultimate that offers both offensive and defensive value (e.g. Corrosive Armor LOL).

It's skill-less PVP, which is super unfortunate.

I was wondering why molten whip seemed to be hitting me much harder than before. I feel like I have to build like a tank out there just to survive.

React

Solariken wrote: »

I don't have any problem with this ring in its current form.

It really just exacerbates the glaring balance problems that already exist which ZOS can't be bothered to address (Corrosive, Caluurion, cross healing in general, Crystal Weap, vampire).

No. 75-90%% uptime defensive ults were not an issue before this ring was introduced, that is completley unique to the 100% uptime major heroism. While ganking has always been around too, it was not even remotely close to as problematic as it is now, with gankers receiving the plethora of offensive, defensive, and sustain buffs from the ring with little to no drawback to their playstle.

I fully agree about all of the balance points you mentioned needing to be addressed, but the ring is not simply exacerbating old issues; it is creating an entirely new set of them.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I don't have any problem with this ring in its current form.

It really just exacerbates the glaring balance problems that already exist which ZOS can't be bothered to address (Corrosive, Caluurion, cross healing in general, Crystal Weap, vampire).

Agreed. Most of the issues were here pre-Oakensoul. Oakensoul is just a convenient scapegoat right now. It is not a god mode item by any means. If Oakensoul gave something that was unique to it so that it can be stacked with all the other major/minor buffs, then yeah it is super OP. But in PvP, many classes need more than just 1 bar if you want a fighting chance against anyone competent.

This statement is ill informed. The ring DOES give something unique, in that major heroism/major force/major berserk are not available with anywhere remotely close to 100% uptime in PVP, outside of this ring. It does not matter that they are named buffs - they are extremely powerful, and there is a reason that most sources only give 3-8 seconds max for them.

The statement about "many classes needing more than one bar to stand a chance against anyone competent" is inaccurate. Especially when you start to consider group v group scenarios and xv1 scenarios, where any possible drawback is covered by the players around you. The ring covers every single buff you would possibly put on your backbar, and increases your damage by such a signifcant amount that you only need one or two damage abilities on your frontbar to output the damage needed to kill the vast majority of players. The ring also offers so much by way of mitigation and sustain, that all you need to slot on the front bar is a burst heal, a heal over time, and potentially a snare immunity (or invis cloak for NB), with your remaining two slots open for damage skills. Also, since you do not need to cast any defensive or offensive buffs you get to spend far more global cooldowns being aggressive or healing - this is a unique advantage the ring has over a normal setup.

If you were to put two equally skilled players against one another, but give one of them a proper oakensoul ring setup, the oakensoul ring would win everytime. Statistically the buffs it gives are just unmatchable by a two bar setup, especially when you consider the remaining 11 open slots for other sets. The ring needs to be balanced.

Urzigurumash

React wrote: »

If you were to put two equally skilled players against one another, but give one of them a proper oakensoul ring setup, the oakensoul ring would win everytime.

While I agree with much of your critique, I'm skeptical about this one. I'm on console so just getting a taste for this meta now, but this forum has been clamoring for years to get rid of turtling up on a SnB/Resto backbar.

Again I'm only a few days into this patch, but it seems like the least tanky meta of all time - defensive Ult spam excepted. Not every spec can be played to its strongest with only a defensive Ult and only SnB/Resto.

I rather thought 1v1 was the case where this ring would prove underwhelming.

Not true? The mitigation afforded by SnB blocking far exceeds any mitigation you can get with a non-SnB/non-Frost Staff Oakensoul build, no? Again defensive Ults excepted. Or you're saying any proper 1v1 Oakensoul build would use a defensive Ult?

Akylles

It shouldn't really be a surprise that the ring DOES gives something unique, considering it is completely blocking a second weapon set up, which includes the weapon trait, the weapon type, and all the extra skills on there. Talking about how "all they need is this on one bar": this is how many people already had their front bar set up in the first place, minus the HoT on the backbar.

If it's not this ring, then it's an unkillable DK or whatever class who simply runs around a tree or a rock for 20seconds on their S/S backbar spamming a heal that somehow pops them all the way to full health in like 1 cast, then pops a potion to proc Clever Alchemist, and ends up wiping 3 people with wrecking blows alone. My death recap is never some extravagant list of carefully stacked DoTs, as if I were a PvE boss that they could take their time with. It's super-jumped up direct damage, sometimes with another DoT added in. Can't really pretend like DKs aren't just spamming whips, that Templars aren't just spamming jabs, that NBs aren't just spamming surprise attack, etc. But, they no longer can switch to a full set of heals and defensives on the back bar, which had defensive trait on weapon and using the massive dmg reduction from block. Also, with the argument about all this "super regen", the ring doesn't give the major regen buffs, and I've been watching people with unlimited regen in cyro for a long time. How many people have seen the 1vXer that's using Engine Guardian + Clever Alchemist + something else? They just endlessly spam heals while LoS'ing around a friggin tree, pop the pot, hit their ulti and spam their main attack that is now supercharged.

The cheese was always there, with or without Oakensoul. It has some issues, yes, but as I stated before, it is not some instant godmode. I've tried tons of different builds on every class. Again, while I'm not a crazy super PvPer (I like it as a recreational break, and then I get sick of the toxicity and go back to PvE for a while, and repeat), I've been playing in Cyro since launch. The loss of the back bar hurts, it makes for tough choices on exactly how to use that front bar maximally. Some tuning can be in order for the ulti, but this ring alone is not the reason why soooo many people get frustrated with PvP in this game. There's lots of reasons, and they don't operate in isolation.

xylena_lazarow

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm skeptical about this one

I'm gonna agree with @React that at an otherwise equal skill level and otherwise optimized builds, the Oakensoul player beats the two bar player. The Oakensoul player will do more damage, take less damage, and has simpler rotations and combos that are less vulnerable to mistakes or disruption. This has been my experience with and without Oakensoul.

The ring raised the power ceiling across the board. Players can both do more damage and survive more damage. It's exacerbated the sort of polarizing gameplay that players have been complaining about for years, situations in which players are unkillable trolls indefinitely stalling, instantly killed without a fair chance to respond, or clowned with massive damage from 41m away while trying to fight the multiples in their face.

Is this meta worse than the previous one? That's going to be a matter of opinion. I like that players are generally doing more damage and playing more aggressively, but constantly fending off 30k stealth gank attempts gets tiring, as does banging your head against the defensive ult spammers or heal stack groups.

Urzigurumash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The Oakensoul player will... take less damage

Only with a defensive Ult though, supported by a Resto/SnB/ Frost Staff?

Urzigurumash

I don't see how it's possible that an Oakensoul player can do more damage AND take less damage than a 2-bar player (outside of Corrosive / Spell Wall etc. spam). Maybe they can do one or the other, but not both at the same time. Not only does this Ring kill the tank meta, it also enforces the Healer-DD-Tank Trinity so many wanted in this game's PvP. (again outside of spamming a few particular Ults)

Or no?

Akylles

The "equal skill" thing is not something I agree with. I just had a standoff with a stamcro outside of Nikel who had pretty much unlimited stamina, was only using blastbones, charge, and wrecking blow for damage, and was taking almost nothing from me despite having 18k pen with Pierce Armor up. And they weren't even just taking damage from me, and still remaining almost untouched. Because I only had the one bar, I was missing some key ingredients for the fight, like the ability to purge. And what, exactly, was so much more skilled here? Yes, they had more to their rotation, but having played with and without this ring on multiple classes, that's not always equal to more skill. They swap to a defensive bar, cheese some heals, and then hit the same attacks over and over and over again.

If you put two equally skilled players together for a fight, then ultimately it will ALWAYS be the difference in power between the gear and the classes. Since you've literally taken out the skill factor (if it's the same on both sides of the equation, we can cancel it out), all that's left is gear and class. So, if it's not Oakensoul, then it'd be a different set or mythic. And so THAT set would be the one decried as OP because IT is the one deciding the difference, not the skill. This set of hypotheticals doesn't really end up going anywhere.

There are some specific instances that have been elucidated that do show places where Oaken is interacting with something it shouldn't, and that tends to center heavily around the ulti gen, especially given the nature of some ultis. Thus, there is certainly some balancing to be done.

However, straying away from these situations and scenarios, to me, is just getting into the realm of melodramatic. There's a ton of cheese in cyro. Lots to address. The ring has some issues, but it is not the boogeyman of the Three Banners War.

xylena_lazarow

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Only with a defensive Ult though, supported by a Resto/SnB/ Frost Staff?

No, there are plenty of other sources of powerful defense, including the permanent uptime on mitigation and sustain buffs afforded by Oakensoul. Defensive ults are a nice panic button when you're being zerged, but outside of that situation only serve to stall out fights that should actually be winnable.

Urzigurumash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Only with a defensive Ult though, supported by a Resto/SnB/ Frost Staff?

No, there are plenty of other sources of powerful defense, including the permanent uptime on mitigation and sustain buffs afforded by Oakensoul. Defensive ults are a nice panic button when you're being zerged, but outside of that situation only serve to stall out fights that should actually be winnable.

Flare slotted and 1 GCD every 20 seconds and you have all the defensive power of Oakensoul on a 2 bar build.

Along with more heals, better blocking, Evasion, etc.

From what I can tell, outside of defensive Ult spam an Oakensoul player sacrifices defense for offense.

I'm seeing MagPlars getting two tapped, something unthinkable for quite some time prior to this.

MetallicMonk

Make an Oakensoul only campaign so all the players who either absolutely refuse or are incapable of becoming better players can all fight each other and have fun.

Ez fix.

ArctosCethlenn

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Flare slotted and 1 GCD every 20 seconds and you have all the defensive power of Oakensoul on a 2 bar build.

Along with more heals, better blocking, Evasion, etc.

From what I can tell, outside of defensive Ult spam an Oakensoul player sacrifices defense for offense.

I'm seeing MagPlars getting two tapped, something unthinkable for quite some time prior to this.

You're massively oversimplifying things and ignoring a lot of the ring's benefits, even defensively. It gives Major courage, a big chunk of raw spell/wd which makes their healing stronger and only had two sources before this, raid buff sets. It gives permanent sorc/brut and savagery/prophecy, so it frees up more than just one GCD every 20 seconds and all of that provides both offensive and defensive power. Even if someone wasn't slotting skills to get those four buffs and was instead using mana/sorc/prophecy pots or stam/brut/savagery, now they don't need to run those and can instead swap to tristat or immove pots.


Then when you toss in the extra offensive power all that gives AND major berserk, force, and courage, it's a hell of a lot easier for the oakensoul player to put his target on the defensive spamming to try to stay alive, rather than hitting back.

Wolfpaw

I'm good with it, no more nerfs.

I haven't got it yet, but have fought many with it in cyrodiil. I say up the cost of Volendrung Ult & everything will be fine.