Oakensoul is ruining the PVP experience, and needs to be balanced ASAP.

Nemeliom

Everyone relax. Just wait a couple more weeks until there are enough sales.
They will then nerf it, cause it's obviously broken and they know it. But this is the time in which ESO removes gold from the game because everyone makes builds with different characters around this ring. Once they nerf it, it's again a gold sink to work on new builds.

So it's a win for ESO gold balance. And sales.

React

.

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

I’m more concerned with occult overload. Take away major heroism and major force and it will probs fade away with other mythics. Honestly, spamming ultimate is the best thing about it, and even with the amount of other buffs, running one bar gets old fast. It’s just not engaging or fun gameplay imo.

I don't think the mythic was designed with "engaging and fun" gameplay in mind. It was designed as an accessibility item for inexperienced players to lower the APM required, which it does do. In cyrodiil the majority of players seemingly aren't even that interested in the combat aspect of the game - most seem to be primarily focused on zerging down keeps and large scale fights, or fights where they outnumbered their opponents. There is essentially no drawback to using the ring for those players - it gives them a significant advantage over any player more skilled than they are, and allows them to interact even less with the relatively complex combat the game offers. For many in PVP, it really is a win-win. The balancing suggested will only seriously affect the setups that truly are abusing the ring and vastly overperforming, not those who are using it for reduced APM.

I personally do not have an issue with occult overload, other than that it should not proc on guards/pets in pvp. It encourages players to spread out, which is very important in terms of performance and heal stacking. Although the value certainly could be reduced by a bit - 12.8k is very high.

sharquez

Is the actual issue with the Oakensoul ring not the ring, but the fact that it exacerbates existing imbalances in the class designs that have been there for a long time? There are uncountable low/mid tier builds that can use the ring to bring them to a viable level. Is it fair to those builds to outright kick their legs out from under them? Or would the better way be to address the polarizing differences in classes and sets and to bring those in line to lower the power ceiling? It's certainly not the easier way. We've seen what the easy way gets us.

FENGRUSH

Digiman wrote: »

React wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

You can dodge and block most telegraphed ultimate. I do expect ZoS will balance this if 90% of the players are gunning it, crying for nerfs on this is stupid and doesn't help bring the actual problems class have suffered through past changes.

Its exasperates it. I am trying to get the ring myself, no luck, but I am not going to cry nerfs just because a bunch of well equipped players pound me. I do expect changes to help enjoy my class better.

After all I have two bars 3 sets on I think this ring will fade like the rest of the antiquities when new stuff is added to the next zone.

If you can't learn to dodge or block then your not a good pvper.

But what do you do when you're being hit from stealth for 20-30k damage in one GCD, with no indication that it is coming? How can you reliably dodge or block that damage?

What do you do when you've got several oakensoul nightblades attacking you while you're outnumbered, dealing 15k+ damage every time they come out of stealth?

How can you possibly kill an oakensoul healer or corrosive spamming DK, when they have defensive ultimates up with 75%-90% uptime?

This really has nothing to do with "adapting" or "getting good". The ring is simply far too out of balance to be allowed to remain in it's current state.

let be honest if 8 nightblades with are going to gank me I won't live. Oakensoul or not and its meant to be designed that way.

Sorry but looking at this thread I see a trend of players who just can't get the ring because they don't buy the DLC to be able to get it and were going to die due to sheer numbers of opposing players overwhelming them and others who are just bad.

The ring is fine, it was god mode in PTS quit whining it and learn to adapts like dark convergence.

You're absolutely incorrect here. You're speaking without experience on what the OP described. It isn't 8 nightblades. One person can heavy attack and kill you from stealth at range and there's no notification that it's coming. And there's no risk if they miss, they just remain in stealth and do another heavy attack.

The OP is completely right. I've loved cyrodiil for many years and I'm done with it this patch. It's not worth the amount of unenjoyable stealth builds chipping in damage everytime you fight or flat out 1 shotting people.

All in all, these threads won't accelerate it being nerfed. It will be nerfed. They put in an overturned mythic or two every chapter and it does force people on board to buy it, then it's nerfed and you'll get a new one next year to endure for chapter sales.

So we all waste time fighting amongst each other when this thing will be tuned down in a bit. Seems a bit unethical but that's how it goes. Impact to PvP is pretty high this time around, fortunately for them it's not in anyone's radar on their side.

xylena_lazarow

sharquez wrote: »

Is the actual issue with the Oakensoul ring not the ring, but the fact that it exacerbates existing imbalances in the class designs that have been there for a long time?

This is correct. The game already had serious problems with unkillable trolls and one shot ganks, Oakensoul showed up and raised the power level for these obnoxious behaviors along with everything else. I do have to admit that Oakensoul has opened up many new builds and shaken up the gear set meta, so I hope there's some sort of solution that doesn't send us back to the stale build meta of the previous patch. Regardless of what they do with Oakensoul, the polarizing gameplay of players being unkillable or instakilled needs to be addressed separately.

TheDarkRuler

Solution: Make its effect not available in PVP. End of story.
Making a nerf to Oakensoul universally will wreck it for PVE.

Veinblood1965

For a minute there I thought this thread was about Dark Convergence.

Udrath

At the moment, while not the best I recommend rocking plague doctor and healthy rings. It sucks but to gives you breathing room. I still get ganked but not as often.

PhoenixGrey

ChunkyCat wrote: »

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

Some amount of toxicity is always healthy in any game.

The oakensoul ring needs to be deleted and not just nerfed as this mythic falls in the shieldbreaker no counterplay category.

I do really want to know what kind of players does it cater to today ? We already have the stamina nightblade for "those" kinds of players

chrisub17_ESO104

The whole two bars are more complex require more skill and that's a good thing.... Really? Maybe. Not all complexity is good. This could be an intentional design shift. If so it's not unbalanced it's just a different design (in this context).

Raising the floor, stat squishing, the recent changes I think all sort of fits if looked at on the whole. This ring is doing what it was supposed to as far as the core design. That it's so strong is I think intentional not that the designers missed or ignored PTS feedback.

Look if you want to test something like this better to make it really strong. You will get better data due to more players using it and stuff will just surface faster. Ie as opposed to starting with minor and then over time moving stuff to majors. Plus ya it will sell better.

Major force and heroism are not inherently unbalanced. A lot of this is simply design choices. Force and heroism are on one hand power creep, but if overall it squishes top and bottom it's a bit more fuzzy.

It could be the designers are idiots. But I'm banking on they aren't. And that we are just missing some pieces of the puzzle here on what their intent is.

Hexquisite

taugrim wrote: »

That, or they'll walk away with the impression (that plenty of PVE players have) that PVP in ESO is wildly imbalanced (which is it with some patches, such as the with the infamous Hrothgar's Chill / Dark Convergence Update or with the Update for High Isle) and therefore never worth playing again.

It's simply awful for newer players.

I agree those were awful as well before nerf. I did BGS every night during this time period, and even was in a video as a victim being pulled into lava by someone who fought hard to change these sets lol.

I can tell you that the oakensoul meta is even worse to new players so far because at least DC and Hrothgar had some mechanics to them that kept them from always being fatal, even to noobs.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

jaws343 wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

If I’m being honest.

From what I see here, the problem isn’t the ring itself directly, it seems to be from the major buffs that it provides in a PVP environment that was almost never seen in a PvP scenario but more commonly in groups and most PvE elements.

What “could” be done: if the problem is coming from the major/minor buffs that are granted from the oakensoul ring or any other mythic of similar power, maybe consider making Battlespirit reduces Major/Minor Buff Effectiveness by a set percentage.

Point is: if major/minor buffs granted are problematic in PvP but not PvE, consider “selectively” reducing the effectiveness of certain buffs that are the most problematic as an extension of the Battlespirit passive in all PvP environments, that way it not only somewhat balances PvP a fair bit in a better manner, but it also may prevent unnecessary PvE nerfs to Skills in general.

In short: Battlespirit reduces buff effectiveness in PVP without affecting Abilities/Ultimates in PvE directly, PVP has better balancing options in the long run, Everyone on both sides wins to a veritable degree.

That is flat out terrible though. The problem is the 100% uptime of the buffs due to the ring.

Let's take an impactful Major buff on the ring: Major Force

It is currently possible, without Oakensoul, to have 100% major force uptime in a group in PVP. BUT, that requires extreme coordination and perfectly timed, rotated ultimates. Or, entire 5 piece gear sets, that only provide Major Force under specific conditions. Effectively, you are not going to get 100% uptime on Major Force in PVP without a ton of sacrifice, or maintenance.

Same for pretty much every major buff on the ring. To keep the buffs up, you have to keep up with buffing and rebuffing. And quite a few of these will never have 100% uptime.

And that is why the buffs themselves are not the problem. They require specifically building for them, and then performing actions to keep them applied. And even when you do that, you are more likely than not, not going to have all of them applied all at the same time during every moment of combat you are in.

With Oaken, they are just there, at all times. No need to spend resources reapplying, or wearing 5 piece sets that apply them under conditions, or coordinating ultimates to keep the buffs active. They just are.

So, why would it ever be a good idea to then just nerf the buffs in PVP altogether. The Major/Minor buffs themselves are not the problem. The problem is the ring provides permanent uptime of the buffs. It removes the conditions that most of these buffs have to apply. Without this ring, these buffs are fine as is. Some rare, some not so rare, most requiring actual effort and upkeep to apply.

Fantastic points, and on top of never having to apply buffs to yourself; you get the best ult gen the game has ever seen.

taugrim

sharquez wrote: »

Is the actual issue with the Oakensoul ring not the ring, but the fact that it exacerbates existing imbalances in the class designs that have been there for a long time? There are uncountable low/mid tier builds that can use the ring to bring them to a viable level. Is it fair to those builds to outright kick their legs out from under them? Or would the better way be to address the polarizing differences in classes and sets and to bring those in line to lower the power ceiling? It's certainly not the easier way. We've seen what the easy way gets us.

The easiest thing to do when a grossly imbalanced set (e.g. Broakensoul) is introduced is to fix that specific set.

Yes, there are a lot of class balance issues, but trying to address those takes time and a lot of testing.

My desire to play PVP in ESO (which is why I play ESO) has plummeted. The last time this happened was with the Hrothgar's Chill and Dark Convergence sets. I stopped paying & playing ESO for several months.

The Broakensoul situation is making me research other MMORPGs, because I'm very tired of ZoS introducing utterly imbalanced sets. And people like me may switch to another game, which is bad for ESO's PVP population.

Nemeliom wrote: »

Everyone relax. Just wait a couple more weeks until there are enough sales.
They will then nerf it, cause it's obviously broken and they know it. But this is the time in which ESO removes gold from the game because everyone makes builds with different characters around this ring. Once they nerf it, it's again a gold sink to work on new builds.

So it's a win for ESO gold balance. And sales.

"relax"

LOL. That's rather condescending...

I pay a month sub to play this game.

It's not a win for me, to pay for a game with newly-introduced imbalanced itemization that creates a crappy experience for however months until this is fixed.

I'll simply stop paying and stop playing.

taugrim

Udrath wrote: »

At the moment, while not the best I recommend rocking plague doctor and healthy rings. It sucks but to gives you breathing room. I still get ganked but not as often.

You do that, and you lose any ability to pressure targets. They'll /dance and out-heal your damage while they eat away at your large Health pool.

Skullstachio

jaws343 wrote: »

That is flat out terrible though. The problem is the 100% uptime of the buffs due to the ring.
Me: I am quite aware of that.

Let's take an impactful Major buff on the ring: Major Force

It is currently possible, without Oakensoul, to have 100% major force uptime in a group in PVP. BUT, that requires extreme coordination and perfectly timed, rotated ultimates. Or, entire 5 piece gear sets, that only provide Major Force under specific conditions. Effectively, you are not going to get 100% uptime on Major Force in PVP without a ton of sacrifice, or maintenance.
Me: that is quite correct. two 5-piece sets, Saxhleel champion(trial set) and Grisly gourmet(dlc dungeon set) come to mind, as do the aggressive horn(Cyrodiil) and Champions light(restoration) ultimate abilities. But that also raises an interesting question: Does the duration per ultimate spent from saxhleel champion stack with the initial duration of Aggressive warhorn? Because if it did, “almost” 100% uptime would be guaranteed if there were enough ultimate generation to upkeep major force by yourself, but I partly suspect that may not be the case in terms of duration stacking.

Same for pretty much every major buff on the ring. To keep the buffs up, you have to keep up with buffing and rebuffing. And quite a few of these will never have 100% uptime.

And that is why the buffs themselves are not the problem. They require specifically building for them, and then performing actions to keep them applied. And even when you do that, you are more likely than not, not going to have all of them applied all at the same time during every moment of combat you are in.

With Oaken, they are just there, at all times. No need to spend resources reapplying, or wearing 5 piece sets that apply them under conditions, or coordinating ultimates to keep the buffs active. They just are.

So, why would it ever be a good idea to then just nerf the buffs in PVP altogether. The Major/Minor buffs themselves are not the problem. The problem is the ring provides permanent uptime of the buffs. It removes the conditions that most of these buffs have to apply. Without this ring, these buffs are fine as is. Some rare, some not so rare, most requiring actual effort and upkeep to apply.

So from the looks of this, if the oakensoul ring truly is the problem in PvP, maybe “no proc” PvP should be the more topical choice in some capacity or another, Oakensoul ring should be considered a proc set (thus preventing it from being usable in no proc pvp servers.) and maybe, just maybe, it would be wise to have a bit more “No Proc PvP availability.” Because in a way, no proc PvP could be a potential perfect middle ground, while cyrodiil campaigns that do allow proc sets could be the “PvP Endgame” right besides everything else tied to it. (even the possibility of a no proc PvP Duel/Battleground shouldn’t be ruled out.)

Urzigurumash

Skullstachio wrote: »

. (even the possibility of a no proc PvP Duel/Battleground shouldn’t be ruled out.)

I think the ideal situation for Battlegrounds is, two queues:

1. Ranked (as in strict MMR), Solo Only, Death Match Only, No Proc
2. Not ranked, Group, All Modes, All Sets

TechMaybeHic

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Solution: Make its effect not available in PVP. End of story.
Making a nerf to Oakensoul universally will wreck it for PVE.

There's a place for it in pvp though. For accessibility. I play with a variety of people with different skill levels. Some would benefit from 1 bar builds without having to have it too strong.

ShadowProc

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

So???

What’s your point? Because you were killed before we need to eliminate that play style. Cool.

xylena_lazarow

ShadowProc wrote: »

What’s your point? Because you were killed before we need to eliminate that play style. Cool.

Players need a fair chance to respond to a gank attempt, even if the window is small.

larthan

PVP is a joke. Stealthers take themselves to 10% life with 100% crit, defense is non-existant, and offense is driven by combinations of heal and attack that shouldn't exist.

I've PVP'd more then enough, for anyone who knows me. It's garbage atm...not balanced, but total fanfaire. I've unsubbed, first time in 7 years. Good luck!

/r
Larthan

XiangliSYD

Everyone rolls an Oakensoul one shot ganker until there are only gankers and ball groups left.

Madhatten512

ChunkyCat wrote: »

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

False, this ring has so many broken interactions that it would be impossible to list them all. !00% uptime spell wall builds, tree spamming warden healers, corrosive spamming dks..... Ultimates were not made to be able to have a 90 to 100% uptime. The ring is broken anyone claiming any different should just be honest and say they are enjoying the crutch. Calurions has been carrying bad nightblades since it was introduced and this just puts it over the top. I can understand giving players that have some kind of disability a way to be viable, but one bar builds should never ever outperform a two bar set up, and that is the case atm by far. I will never understand how stuff like this even gets in the game (besides the obvious that its a way to sell a chapter that was lacking in content). Anyone that actually plays this game took one look at that ring and knew it was going to be a problem.

Madhatten512

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

The heavy attack build would be kind of cool if everyone running it did not do it from the back of a zerg, or when you have 10 people already beating on you. Every single person I have seen run that build ganks Xv1.

Ballermfrau

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

There's never been a successful pay to win pvp game, and there never will be. The cost to get the item should never be a factor in balance calculations.

You must be joking to call an item which is accessible to everybody P2W. P2W is something different and not part of an expansion.

Every MMO must be P2W with your assumptions.

Brrrofski

This thing is crazy.

Some of the builds I've made with this are actually disgusting.

I thought one bar would suck, but it's not a big deal for most classes.

It sucked on mag sorc to be fair.

Tommy_The_Gun

Something that I don't understand is this:
DC & PB sets exists, and those "do the damage for you". Stronger than ultimates, but no nerf so far, despite pretty much everyone disliking them (either because they can not play against them or are forced to use them to stay competitive).

So, Oakensoul is incredibly strong too, but at least you still need to "push buttons" yourself. It gives passive buffs, but insanely strong ones.

I would say this:
If Oakensoul will get nerfed (it probably will), not nerfing or at least "looking at" DC & PB sets will be just unfair & double standard. Those 2 sets pretty much wrecked any trace of balance that was left in PvP. If someone says that one can "adapt & overcome" to those 2 sets, then it should also be the case for Oakensoul, right ?

Pepegrillos

I don't mind new or casual players becoming more dangerous thanks to Oakensoul. That will probably end up hurting 1vXrs in the long run. But frankly, no MMORPG that intends to stay around can balance with the aim of keeping 1vX afloat.

The issue with Oakensoul is experienced or relatively experienced players coming up with busted builds that erase almost any kind of counterplay. (In addition, those builds suffer very little trade-offs, all things considered).

I guess the main post has to do with that. You get nearly-permanent corrosive whipers that gap-close you spamming chains all day. You get nightblades one or two-shot you along with the initial stun out of stealth. You get the heavy-attack-from-stealth enjoyers. You get the one-bar overload and crystal weapon sorcs that chunk 60-70% of your health on a light attack swing. The list goes on.

Stamicka

Claiming that this mythic is for accessibility purposes seems very very unethical to me. For starters, the mythic is locked behind a DLC purchase and hours of lead farming. In my opinion if the intention is to truly help those who need it, the item shouldn’t be behind a pay wall. Additionally if ZOS nerfs this item, what message is that sending to people with accessibility issues? Everything about it rubs me the wrong way.

Syrusthevirus187

LeifErickson wrote: »

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

Because the issue is, and always has been...cloak

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

. (even the possibility of a no proc PvP Duel/Battleground shouldn’t be ruled out.)

I think the ideal situation for Battlegrounds is, two queues:

1. Ranked (as in strict MMR), Solo Only, Death Match Only, No Proc
2. Not ranked, Group, All Modes, All Sets

Noproc and BGs shouldn't be in one sentence.