ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »I agree OP. And to the people saying 100k is a drop in the ocean or whatever, it's actually not 100k it's literally billions being added to the economy.
For a bit of perspective let's look at the average larger guild, since people like to say that kiosk bids are the only meaningful gold sink. We'll say the average (larger guils) has 400 members, since not all are going to have 500. That's 40,000,000 gold being added to the game by one guild alone. There's 18 guilds located in the Capitol cities, that's 720,000,000 gold..
And yet, 40mil gold is just ~9500 characters doing a set of daily writs (4200 gold). Or just 1200 players doing writs on 8 characters. Which happens every day, not once a month.
Plus there's all the other delve/zone/dungeon dailies, grinding, selling excess junk to vendors, etc.
Yes, when you apply MATH!™, that 100k gold turns into Scary Big Numbers.
...which still are barely a drop in the bucket, because Even Scarier & Bigger Numbers are being generated every single day.
And that's why there's inflation. Not because of one little giveaway.
I agree, direct gold from repeatable quest is a main cause of inflation, thus should be removed
Which would kind of suck for those people who aren't traders, and for whom that gold is a large % of their entire income.
That's the hard thing about balancing MMOs - making sure that the things you do to slow down the top players, don't disproportionately screw over the low end ones.
(I remember one time that WoW nerfed the entire resource recovery system because high-end raiders had figured out how to have effectively-infinite sustain... and Joe Random Leveling Dude ended up having to rest & drink recovery consumables after every single overland trash fight.)
No, the mats from the daily writs would still be valuable, the quest is still worth the time even after removing the direct gold reward.
The direct gold is not a large part of the income now, your claim is completely false.
I'm talking about people who don't trade. They get 0 gold from mats, just the quest gold (and selling ornates to the vendor).
(that would be all of us who have nothing to do with this game's dumpster fire of a trading system. Been playing since 2016, I've never sold a single thing to another player. I've also never had more than ~1.7mil gold.)
So many “us” and “i”, it’s all about you i guess, have you thought that trading with other player is literally a feature in every MMO
And have you thought that only in one is it gated behind guilds...?
What you talking about? People can sell in zone chat in eso, just like other games
As has been discussed to death, spamming zone chat is not a sensible selling mechanism. Other games, inter alia, use auction houses open to everyone. And while people can argue till the cows come home about the merits and demerits of auction houses in ESO, the fact remains that ESO gates its only sensible selling mechanism behind guilds, and behind the random strangers running those guilds (even automated guilds administered by the servers themselves would be an improvement).
A lot of people simply will not join guilds. They do not want to. And they are de facto cut off from one side of the player economy while fully exposed to its rising prices if they try to buy something.
As I said above, these forums are self selecting and tend to attract players who are not entirely representative of ESO's player base. So these conversations generally degenerate into "you're lazy for not joining a guild", "i make a million a day what's your problem", "spamming zone chat is an absolutely flawless mechanism (that I don't actually use) because reasons", "but the servers will crash if the game isn't the way I want it to be", etc.
There's a limit to how far this discussion can productively get if people refuse to recognise the existence of a large slice of the playerbase who do not want to and will not engage with guilds, and if people are going blithely to claim that a totally useless (and ridiculous) mechanism -- WTS spam in chat -- is the bee's knees.
Out of curiosity, those players who will not join guilds because reasons....what do they really need gold for if they restrict themselves to solo play? Not really crucial to have hundreds of potions for trials or "end game"
There is a huge difference between not joining a guild, and not running endgame content, or not wanting to play with others, or being a soloplayer. I don't join a guild because when I do eventually join one, I want to be a valuable asset to that guild. Players not in a guild often still do trials, cyrodiil, bg's, events, and veteran or HM content. I often ran HM dungeons(will again when I am done with other in-game stuff), I often help players in zonechat with world bosses, etc. Not joining a guild, does not make a player a soloplayer. Nor does it exclude players from any of the tougher content. Nor does it mean players do not have groups to play with.Out of curiosity, those players who will not join guilds because reasons....what do they really need gold for if they restrict themselves to solo play? Not really crucial to have hundreds of potions for trials or "end game" stuff if you don't have a group/guild to do the content. Honestly if they refuse to engage with anyone because OMG GUILDS there's no worries about battleground teams or trial groups that need consistent people to do hard content there isn't a lot of reason for selling stuff to other players to make gold. Selling to npc merchants might take a lot longer to build a gold reserve, but hey, no contact with other players.
BretonMage wrote: »100K gold is a drop in the ocean for the richer players, and really helpful for newer players. I think it's fine. Trading system might need an adjustment to make items more affordable, that's all.
PS: Most players I see in-game do not have a guildtag below their name, which makes me believe most players do not join a guild. For reasons unknown to me.
Player reports are not always needed to identify cheaters. There's a pinned thread right now about accounts being banned for violating ToS via third party programs.I don’t disagree, but with sharding and by spreading characters between different cities, who would report them? I manually farmed writs for months on 18 characters. Often, I would do it late after work and would only do my writs before logging off. If someone saw me playing, I would’ve probably been indistinguishable from a bot for most players.
My point isn’t to encourage this practice but simply to show how exploitable these quests can be by cheating in the game.
I also want to precise that I do not engage with those practices. I make my gold through legitimate trading.
Out of curiosity, those players who will not join guilds because reasons....what do they really need gold for if they restrict themselves to solo play?
ForzaRammer wrote: »I don’t know what kind of economics you learned, but blaming flippers is ridiculous, you can’t flip crowns, crowns been going up just as wax, alloy, roe, chromium, mundane rune and heartwood.
ForzaRammer wrote: »I think the issue has to do more with market flippers than any way players earn gold in game. Some people collected a large amount of gold over the years and now have enough to corner the market and mop up anything that undervalues their top line. As a casual player who has no interest in playing the market and doesn't have all day to farm, I never made that much in a day, and I never held on to a million for long as I'd use it to buy houses and furnishing plans. Casuals simply have no way to bring in that much, especially those of us who have full time jobs and families. It would just anger the casual player base if income was also nerfed on top of the many nerfs this game as received over the years due to angry people wanting to wreck the game for others because they feel that's better than asking for solutions where everyone wins.
I don’t know what kind of economics you learned, but blaming flippers is ridiculous, you can’t flip crowns, crowns been going up just as wax, alloy, roe, chromium, mundane rune and heartwood.
Inflation happens when the supply of currency is significantly higher than its demand (basically too much gold too little mats and crown).
There is no solution to make everyone happy. But insist on keeping hyperinflation will make more people unhappy.
ForzaRammer wrote: »I think the issue has to do more with market flippers than any way players earn gold in game. Some people collected a large amount of gold over the years and now have enough to corner the market and mop up anything that undervalues their top line. As a casual player who has no interest in playing the market and doesn't have all day to farm, I never made that much in a day, and I never held on to a million for long as I'd use it to buy houses and furnishing plans. Casuals simply have no way to bring in that much, especially those of us who have full time jobs and families. It would just anger the casual player base if income was also nerfed on top of the many nerfs this game as received over the years due to angry people wanting to wreck the game for others because they feel that's better than asking for solutions where everyone wins.
I don’t know what kind of economics you learned, but blaming flippers is ridiculous, you can’t flip crowns, crowns been going up just as wax, alloy, roe, chromium, mundane rune and heartwood.
Inflation happens when the supply of currency is significantly higher than its demand (basically too much gold too little mats and crown).
There is no solution to make everyone happy. But insist on keeping hyperinflation will make more people unhappy.
I think you identified the problem right there, not enough of the stuff players need. ZOS could tweak drop rates for mats so there's more and a higher chance for better tempers and rare mats. Then prices will drop because there's more to go around and more people will sell, so much so that the flippers can't keep up cornering the market.
Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Out of curiosity, those players who will not join guilds because reasons....what do they really need gold for if they restrict themselves to solo play?
There's a bunch of houses that are 1-3mil+, one can easily drop 100k+ (1mil on a "good" week) at the Luxury Furniture vendor, etc.
And, of course, there's Crown buying/gifting.
And just because someone doesn't Guild, doesn't mean they're 100% solo (I am, but that's me. /shrug)ForzaRammer wrote: »I don’t know what kind of economics you learned, but blaming flippers is ridiculous, you can’t flip crowns, crowns been going up just as wax, alloy, roe, chromium, mundane rune and heartwood.
Part of the big jump in Crown prices was Steam closing the loopholes that let people buy cheap Crowns internationally.
Another was the supply of extra Crowns (from long-time ESO+ subbers, saved up before Crown gifting existed) finally drying up.
And yeah, part of it is also the increasing gold supply. But only part.
ForzaRammer wrote: »Inflation started around august 2020
Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Inflation started around august 2020
Then I wonder what the actual cause was, since the Lazy Writ addon has existed since at least 2016, and I know that I've been raising cash via lots of writs since 2017.
ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »I agree OP. And to the people saying 100k is a drop in the ocean or whatever, it's actually not 100k it's literally billions being added to the economy.
For a bit of perspective let's look at the average larger guild, since people like to say that kiosk bids are the only meaningful gold sink. We'll say the average (larger guils) has 400 members, since not all are going to have 500. That's 40,000,000 gold being added to the game by one guild alone. There's 18 guilds located in the Capitol cities, that's 720,000,000 gold..
And yet, 40mil gold is just ~9500 characters doing a set of daily writs (4200 gold). Or just 1200 players doing writs on 8 characters. Which happens every day, not once a month.
Plus there's all the other delve/zone/dungeon dailies, grinding, selling excess junk to vendors, etc.
Yes, when you apply MATH!™, that 100k gold turns into Scary Big Numbers.
...which still are barely a drop in the bucket, because Even Scarier & Bigger Numbers are being generated every single day.
And that's why there's inflation. Not because of one little giveaway.
I agree, direct gold from repeatable quest is a main cause of inflation, thus should be removed
Which would kind of suck for those people who aren't traders, and for whom that gold is a large % of their entire income.
That's the hard thing about balancing MMOs - making sure that the things you do to slow down the top players, don't disproportionately screw over the low end ones.
(I remember one time that WoW nerfed the entire resource recovery system because high-end raiders had figured out how to have effectively-infinite sustain... and Joe Random Leveling Dude ended up having to rest & drink recovery consumables after every single overland trash fight.)
No, the mats from the daily writs would still be valuable, the quest is still worth the time even after removing the direct gold reward.
The direct gold is not a large part of the income now, your claim is completely false.
I'm talking about people who don't trade. They get 0 gold from mats, just the quest gold (and selling ornates to the vendor).
(that would be all of us who have nothing to do with this game's dumpster fire of a trading system. Been playing since 2016, I've never sold a single thing to another player. I've also never had more than ~1.7mil gold.)
So many “us” and “i”, it’s all about you i guess, have you thought that trading with other player is literally a feature in every MMO
And have you thought that only in one is it gated behind guilds...?
wolfie1.0. wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »I agree OP. And to the people saying 100k is a drop in the ocean or whatever, it's actually not 100k it's literally billions being added to the economy.
For a bit of perspective let's look at the average larger guild, since people like to say that kiosk bids are the only meaningful gold sink. We'll say the average (larger guils) has 400 members, since not all are going to have 500. That's 40,000,000 gold being added to the game by one guild alone. There's 18 guilds located in the Capitol cities, that's 720,000,000 gold..
And yet, 40mil gold is just ~9500 characters doing a set of daily writs (4200 gold). Or just 1200 players doing writs on 8 characters. Which happens every day, not once a month.
Plus there's all the other delve/zone/dungeon dailies, grinding, selling excess junk to vendors, etc.
Yes, when you apply MATH!™, that 100k gold turns into Scary Big Numbers.
...which still are barely a drop in the bucket, because Even Scarier & Bigger Numbers are being generated every single day.
And that's why there's inflation. Not because of one little giveaway.
I agree, direct gold from repeatable quest is a main cause of inflation, thus should be removed
Which would kind of suck for those people who aren't traders, and for whom that gold is a large % of their entire income.
That's the hard thing about balancing MMOs - making sure that the things you do to slow down the top players, don't disproportionately screw over the low end ones.
(I remember one time that WoW nerfed the entire resource recovery system because high-end raiders had figured out how to have effectively-infinite sustain... and Joe Random Leveling Dude ended up having to rest & drink recovery consumables after every single overland trash fight.)
No, the mats from the daily writs would still be valuable, the quest is still worth the time even after removing the direct gold reward.
The direct gold is not a large part of the income now, your claim is completely false.
I'm talking about people who don't trade. They get 0 gold from mats, just the quest gold (and selling ornates to the vendor).
(that would be all of us who have nothing to do with this game's dumpster fire of a trading system. Been playing since 2016, I've never sold a single thing to another player. I've also never had more than ~1.7mil gold.)
So many “us” and “i”, it’s all about you i guess, have you thought that trading with other player is literally a feature in every MMO
And have you thought that only in one is it gated behind guilds...?
Every mat in the game can be obtained without gold exchanging hands.
wolfie1.0. wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »I agree OP. And to the people saying 100k is a drop in the ocean or whatever, it's actually not 100k it's literally billions being added to the economy.
For a bit of perspective let's look at the average larger guild, since people like to say that kiosk bids are the only meaningful gold sink. We'll say the average (larger guils) has 400 members, since not all are going to have 500. That's 40,000,000 gold being added to the game by one guild alone. There's 18 guilds located in the Capitol cities, that's 720,000,000 gold..
And yet, 40mil gold is just ~9500 characters doing a set of daily writs (4200 gold). Or just 1200 players doing writs on 8 characters. Which happens every day, not once a month.
Plus there's all the other delve/zone/dungeon dailies, grinding, selling excess junk to vendors, etc.
Yes, when you apply MATH!™, that 100k gold turns into Scary Big Numbers.
...which still are barely a drop in the bucket, because Even Scarier & Bigger Numbers are being generated every single day.
And that's why there's inflation. Not because of one little giveaway.
I agree, direct gold from repeatable quest is a main cause of inflation, thus should be removed
Which would kind of suck for those people who aren't traders, and for whom that gold is a large % of their entire income.
That's the hard thing about balancing MMOs - making sure that the things you do to slow down the top players, don't disproportionately screw over the low end ones.
(I remember one time that WoW nerfed the entire resource recovery system because high-end raiders had figured out how to have effectively-infinite sustain... and Joe Random Leveling Dude ended up having to rest & drink recovery consumables after every single overland trash fight.)
No, the mats from the daily writs would still be valuable, the quest is still worth the time even after removing the direct gold reward.
The direct gold is not a large part of the income now, your claim is completely false.
I'm talking about people who don't trade. They get 0 gold from mats, just the quest gold (and selling ornates to the vendor).
(that would be all of us who have nothing to do with this game's dumpster fire of a trading system. Been playing since 2016, I've never sold a single thing to another player. I've also never had more than ~1.7mil gold.)
So many “us” and “i”, it’s all about you i guess, have you thought that trading with other player is literally a feature in every MMO
And have you thought that only in one is it gated behind guilds...?
Every mat in the game can be obtained without gold exchanging hands.
Nice try but the post i was responding to was about trading, not farming materials.
Unless you're proposing getting rid of trading completely, guilds and all...
That would make me quit faster than anyone could say bind-on-pickup. Even though I never trade, and rarely ever buy anything from guildtraders, I do want what I loot to have actual value. Even when I do not use that value. If everything was BOP, only what you actually use would have value, and everything else would just become clutter. This is the one of the main reasons I quit D3 as well, and would never play any other game with BOP.wolfie1.0. wrote: »I have many time suggested that it would be easiest for the entire game to go to bind on pickup for everything.
That would make me quit faster than anyone could say bind-on-pickup. Even though I never trade, and rarely ever buy anything from guildtraders, I do want what I loot to have actual value. Even when I do not use that value.wolfie1.0. wrote: »I have many time suggested that it would be easiest for the entire game to go to bind on pickup for everything.
This is the one of the main reasons I quit D3 as well,
ForzaRammer wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Inflation started around august 2020
Then I wonder what the actual cause was, since the Lazy Writ addon has existed since at least 2016, and I know that I've been raising cash via lots of writs since 2017.
Exactly why my first guess in late 2020 was scry and excavation, you can check my old threads
That would make me quit faster than anyone could say bind-on-pickup. Even though I never trade, and rarely ever buy anything from guildtraders, I do want what I loot to have actual value. Even when I do not use that value. If everything was BOP, only what you actually use would have value, and everything else would just become clutter. This is the one of the main reasons I quit D3 as well, and would never play any other game with BOP.wolfie1.0. wrote: »I have many time suggested that it would be easiest for the entire game to go to bind on pickup for everything.
There are also parts of the game I do not want to participate in, and BOP would force me to do those parts of the game due to the rewards tied to them. Making the game overal a lot less fun.
What about buying items/mats that are exclusive to DLC/Chapter zones? It's not a matter of simply gold vs time.wolfie1.0. wrote: »My big point to the person I responded to is that every thing in this game can be gotten without gold whether that's farming or direct trade. All gold does is save time, its a shortcut to an item so long as there is a supply of it. The real question is how much you value your gold vs time. Ie what is your gold/time ratio at what point is your time more valuable than gold or gold more valuable than time?