Really pissed off at the upcoming DK nerfs

Sleeping_OwI

Surprise! DKs were performing well in pvp recently, so ZOS has decided to hit all DKs with a giant nerf hammer across the board... again... Jeez, when has that ever happened before, only about 20 times or so?

I've always been a main PvE DK for years, I never step foot in pvp unless I need to unlock Caltrops or find skyshards in Cyrodiil. And yet every second patch they butcher my class and nerf it into the ground, why? Because some pvp players make strong builds with DK, so naturally EVERYONE including pvE players should pay for that.

Only for about 6 months DKs were finally in a good spot in pvE with decent damage and sustain, and now we're back to last year and before when DKs had craap sustain, mediocre damage and pathetic self heal.
But the nerfs that have left me in awe the most are Combustion and Burning Embers.

Templars can literally solo everything with jabs (the single most op ability in the game imo that has never gotten a nerf), sorcerers have the strong crit surge, necros have a dedicated strong healer pet, wardens have so much built-in healing, NBs too have a healing spammable or sth like that iirc... the ONLY passive heal that DKs had was Burning Embers which only in this patch was reliable and useful, and they decided to nerf that by a massive 50%... am I crazy for thinking this is unfair and uncalled for? Every other class has a strong self heal except DK, and they decide to hit the little self-heal DK has? I'm just speechless at how stupid this is.

Combuation gives back 500 resources every 0.5 second after the last DK buff... You might think it's a little too good on paper, but believe me, I main a magDK with dual wield, one fire dagger & one poison dagger, one of them with the newly buffed Charged trait, 3 out of 8 of my main abilities are stam, meaning I trigger the Combustion passive all the time, and I STILL have sustain issues half the times and need extra resources from the healer, and remember this is DK in its prime. Now this is before the upcoming nerf, which turns the Combustion cooldown from 0.5 second to 3 seconds... SIX TIMES worse now. Not two times, not three, not four... SIX times worse. I literally won't be able to sustain anymore and believe me I've already hybridized my entire build and I'm using all the stam morphs and skills than I can, and it still won't be enough. What if I want to change to Inferno back bar like the old times? Too bad, I'm all out of magicka after 2 rotations. Instead of being a nice "option", hybridization is now mandatory it seems, but even that won't be enough for DKs.

Do you ever see them nerf the easy-mode OP since launch classes, sorcerer and templar? Or the precious all-around-strong dlc class Necro? No, it's always the poor *** Dragonknight that's consistently being butchered every year, just because it's good in pvp. Yeah we had a good run for about 6 months (compared to the 6+ years of some other classes...) but now fun time is over, the fun police ZOS has caught up to us with their "balance" changes.

I'm just so tired of my class being nerfed into the ground just because some pvp players make strong builds with it... Why can't they do it in a way that doesn't ruin the class for pvE? Why can't they just separate pvp and pve once and for all and end all this endless nerf buff nerf buff cycle? Sure it would take some work at first but it would avoid so much work and balancing trouble down the road. They're always hurting classes and abilities in pvE just because something is too good in pvP and is being abused by some people.

Sorry for the long rant, thanks for reading.

blktauna

Well... Now you've had a taste of how we Nightblades feel.

MasterSpatula

I'm pretty sure this is just a "nerf Sorc" thread.

Arthtur

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

merpins

They just needa balance PVE and PVP separately. Said it before, I'll say it again. By balancing for PVP, it hurts PVE by making things weaker, whether that be in sustain or in damage. By buffing with PVE in mind, it hurts PVP because now everyone is using the buffed skill a la Crystal Weapons (that one is overtuned, even in PVE tbh).

DK needed a nerf for PVP, and was overperforming slightly in PVE. A hit to sustain is what was needed, and though I'm not an expert on the implications here because 1. I'm a PVE player, and 2. I hate playing DK so I don't really understand how hard of a nerf it is, I can tell you I would be upset if they nerfed any of my main classes really hard (temp, sorc, ward) because they'e unbalanced in PVP. They did it before when I mained a Nightblade, and have nerfed it pretty consistently patch after patch since 4 years ago, so I don't even touch my old Nightblade.

I don't really have anything constructive to say here. DK isn't something I'm familiar enough with to give an opinion one way or the other in terms of how well it's performing, I just know that it did well in PVE and PVP players were begging for it to be nerfed. I am someone that plays sorc, and can say Crystal Weapons buff is ridiculous, but I can also say as a sorc that I hate playing melee with Crystal Weapons or the Psijic alternative and VERY much prefer the Stam change to frags.

DMuehlhausen

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

They just needa balance PVE and PVP separately. Said it before, I'll say it again. By balancing for PVP, it hurts PVE by making things weaker, whether that be in sustain or in damage. By buffing with PVE in mind, it hurts PVP because now everyone is using the buffed skill a la Crystal Weapons (that one is overtuned, even in PVE tbh).

DK needed a nerf for PVP, and was overperforming slightly in PVE. A hit to sustain is what was needed, and though I'm not an expert on the implications here because 1. I'm a PVE player, and 2. I hate playing templar so I don't really understand how hard of a nerf it is, I can tell you I would be upset if they nerfed any of my main classes really hard (temp, sorc, ward) because they'e unbalanced in PVP. They did it before when I mained a Nightblade, and have nerfed it pretty consistently patch after patch since 4 years ago, so I don't even touch my old Nightblade.

I don't really have anything constructive to say here. DK isn't something I'm familiar enough with to give an opinion one way or the other in terms of how well it's performing, I just know that it did well in PVE and PVP players were begging for it to be nerfed. I am someone that plays sorc, and can say Crystal Weapons buff is ridiculous, but I can also say as a sorc that I hate playing melee with Crystal Weapons or the Psijic alternative and VERY much prefer the Stam change to frags.

I've been saying this since early WoW days.

It's numerically impossible to balance PvE and PvP. PvP will always be the red headed step child that screws up everything else. All the skills, and weapons are based around killing enemies with possibly billions of hp. You can never balance that against killing players with 10s of thousands of HP it just isn't possible.

The only option would be to have skills and weapons that are only available in PvP then you can balance that around other players and the armor and defenses they will have. No company will ever invest this kind of time though for a simple add on game mode.

Browiseth

the funny thing is that pvp and pve are already balanced differently so why don't zos just bite the bullet and double down on applying different attributes for skills or gear in pvp zones

seriously its like we all forget battle spirit exists

Tannus15

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

Sleeping_OwI

Browiseth wrote: »

the funny thing is that pvp and pve are already balanced differently so why don't zos just bite the bullet and double down on applying different attributes for skills or gear in pvp zones

seriously its like we all forget battle spirit exists

That's what I've been thinking. You get different buffs and debuffs as soon as you go into Cyrodiil. Why can't the same thing apply to some abilities and passives? I guess that would be too much work for them, just nerfing something into the ground without any regards to how it will affect pvE is much easier.

Sleeping_OwI

Tannus15 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

Only IF you build around that passive and Charged trait, not for most players. For example my off-hand dagger is charged, and looking at my parse video, the times when I switch between bars I reapply burning/poison every 4/5 secs, and when I'm on my front bar I apply them about every 2 seconds on average. So for most players, it was never THAT strong to begin with. They should've nerfed Charged imo, not Combustion, or at least make the nerf more reasonable, like 1 or 2 seconds cooldown, not a whopping 3 seconds, that's just simply too much.

Rowjoh

There are a lot 'Immortal' DK builds in PVP this patch. They are overpowered in the extreme and no wonder so many players have jumped on this bandwagon.

Unfortunately what goes down in PVP ultimately affects PVE, which is a bit of a major flaw imho.

shadyjane62

The only fights I have ever given up on were against today's DK.

Good that they are being nerfed.

When 5 or 6 players cannot touch a DK, when they are working together, something is wrong.

Arthtur

Tannus15 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

As i said. Getting this number HURT my sustain more than it helped. From good sustain it went to terrible sustain. But as always "oh big number, its too OP". Even when i say it wasnt worth getting that much from this passive. Also i got those numbers using inferno charged and heartland conqueror. Half of procs were wasted, damage was rly low, regen per s was still lower than drain per s.
And not everyone is using Bahsei. Please dont tell ppl that everything should be balanced about meta.

And sorry but i dont see those "bursts" of big damage. Other classes hit harder than DK on parser and have good sustain. I would prefer to have less damage and stop worrying about sustain as its just not fun.
And HA buff is useless in PvE. U dont want to use them.
And about bringing only DKs... Sorry but that the best class this patch. Just like there were times that They were taking only Necros. The thing is with new sets u dont even need necro in the team for Major Vuln, so what the point of taking anything else except damage? Not long ago DK was used only as a support or as a tank.

And i will say it again. This nerf makes it worse than before DK Love patch. And before that patch DK had the worst sustain in the game. Now its worse.

Arthtur

shadyjane62 wrote: »

The only fights I have ever given up on were against today's DK.

Good that they are being nerfed.

When 5 or 6 players cannot touch a DK, when they are working together, something is wrong.

Its not DK's fault. That's fault of the meta in PvP. Almost every class is building to be tanky and DK is the best in this meta because was designed as the tank. If healing would stop being so strong in PvP DK wouldnt be so OP anymore. But ppl said a lot of times already that Cross healing and hybrisation give too much healing to everyone...

Ratzkifal

What bothers me about it is that ZOS, as usual, goes with the sledgehammer approach.
DKs do need a nerf, but don't nerf everything at once! It would have been enough to nerf their healing, no need to then also nerf their sustain (not to mention that this impacts PvE too). If that wasn't enough they could nerf them again later.
But now PvPers are getting blamed for PvE nerfs again. Thanks ZOS, real smooth.

Tommy_The_Gun

blktauna wrote: »

Well... Now you've had a taste of how we Nightblades feel.

...Since Elsweyr update

MEBengalsFan2001

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

DK sustain come not only from that one passive. It also comes from when you use your ultimate or did you forget that? I know plenty of DK that have zero sustain issues in PVP because there ultimate comes up perfectly when they need to use it to regain resources. Instead of increasing the time I would have reduced the resource gained by a small percentage.

I took my DK tank through content which was on the back burner and I had zero and I mean zero issues with my stamina or magika through a trial. Both were near max the full trial because of the current regains for resources DK have. My other classes have some issues with sustain even with 3K recovery. So yeah DK is a bit over the top for sustain ATM and needed adjustments.

As for the healing adjustment, most other classes get a portion of the damage back as a heal not the full damage amount. This adjustment was to reduce the healing output and make the ability more inline with other damaging abilities that heal.

As for the damage it is a bit over the top ATM. The hardest hitting ability I see in PVP is Molten Whip; I get hit on average for over 12K by DK using molten whip while BLOCKING and my PVP character is far from squishy. I have over 33K resistance with another 15%+ damage mitigation all prior to blocking. Most NB run from me after they hit me 3+ times because I'm not an easy target to kill. Just yesterday I had a full ball group on me and it took a good 3 minutes to kill me. None were a DK but if one was it would have been a quicker kill for the group.

I don't want to see DK nerfed to the ground so everyone stops using them. I think a few MINOR adjustments were needed. Just like templar Living Dark needed to be FIXED as it was a bit to strong especially against high health or high spell/weapon damage individuals.

As someone who plays only PVP currently I would have been fine if the devs simply adjusted the healing from 100% down to 75%, reduced the damage of molten whip by 10-15% and adjusted the resource regen from 500 down to 400 or so. Adjustments still but nothing to kill the class.

Pevey

Tannus15 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

When they set it at that rate, it was not completely arbitrary. They probably did some basic tests and set it at that rate because it was required to get the same basic sustain level as other classes. This is because of the insanely high cost of DK skills, which zos acknowledged in the patch notes. So they are reversing the sustain improvement so that DKs will specifically have to suffer poor sustain. That is a terrible class design. There is a reason so many players quit after Morrowind and never returned. There is a reason so many players who kept playing let their DKs collect dust for so long. The inability to sustain your rotation is terribly unfun.

Arthtur

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

DK sustain come not only from that one passive. It also comes from when you use your ultimate or did you forget that? I know plenty of DK that have zero sustain issues in PVP because there ultimate comes up perfectly when they need to use it to regain resources. Instead of increasing the time I would have reduced the resource gained by a small percentage.

I took my DK tank through content which was on the back burner and I had zero and I mean zero issues with my stamina or magika through a trial. Both were near max the full trial because of the current regains for resources DK have. My other classes have some issues with sustain even with 3K recovery. So yeah DK is a bit over the top for sustain ATM and needed adjustments.

As for the healing adjustment, most other classes get a portion of the damage back as a heal not the full damage amount. This adjustment was to reduce the healing output and make the ability more inline with other damaging abilities that heal.

As for the damage it is a bit over the top ATM. The hardest hitting ability I see in PVP is Molten Whip; I get hit on average for over 12K by DK using molten whip while BLOCKING and my PVP character is far from squishy. I have over 33K resistance with another 15%+ damage mitigation all prior to blocking. Most NB run from me after they hit me 3+ times because I'm not an easy target to kill. Just yesterday I had a full ball group on me and it took a good 3 minutes to kill me. None were a DK but if one was it would have been a quicker kill for the group.

I don't want to see DK nerfed to the ground so everyone stops using them. I think a few MINOR adjustments were needed. Just like templar Living Dark needed to be FIXED as it was a bit to strong especially against high health or high spell/weapon damage individuals.

As someone who plays only PVP currently I would have been fine if the devs simply adjusted the healing from 100% down to 75%, reduced the damage of molten whip by 10-15% and adjusted the resource regen from 500 down to 400 or so. Adjustments still but nothing to kill the class.

About that tanks this nerf doesnt touch them at all. If They use poison enchant for stam regen its still hit every 4s so this nerf doesnt hurt them at all. And DK tanks can easly make use of Helping Hands for good stamina sustain.

Not eveyone can make use of that other passive. I dont have big enough magicka pull to get good use of it on stamDK. I have to invest into regen to be able to sustain anyway. Like even with this "broken" passive on live i still have to use magicka cost reduction enchant to have good sustain. Even tho i will still run out if i do something stupid. But thats StamDK which is in worse situation than MagDK. And i still have to depend on this extra sustain when using ultimate. I would prefer to remove this "burst" sustain in order to have better sustain all the time, but that just my opinion.

The healing was at the start at 75% but ZOS decided that its too low. They buffed it to 100% and now They nerf it to 50%... So yeah.

I never had a problem with nerfing damage burst on the Whip. Like i was expecting them to nerf it before anything else. DK is the only class that can get +100% damage on their spammable for burst. Other classes have to line up other skills for that or dont have this option at all.

Yeah, i was testing stuff with mentality that we will get some nerfs, just didnt want nerfs to sustain. It was first time when i had so much fun playing as stamDK. It was always MagDK who was overperforming. StamDK was in good place.

About your changes:
-I would prefer nerf to the stacks of molten whip insted to overall damage as this will hurt PvE less while still reducing damage burst in PvP as it should.
-Healing u want something that this was from the start but ZOS simply overbuffed and then overnerfed like always.
-And this regen is a little bigger problem. MagDK has too good sustain and it should be nerfed but StamDK is in perfect spot and any nerf would make it harder to sustain whip, which isnt "free" even on live. Like i already on live get between 400-500 regen from this passive depending on my luck. For nerfing it i would prefer to either put it back to 500 without any CD nerfs or leave it at 1k with CD increased to 1s and with shared CD (the same CD for burning and posion so u cant proc both). With addition to healing and damage nerfs it should be enough. it would still hurt StamDK more but it would still be possible to sustain. On PTS its just... suffering.

At the end i want to Thank You for using some data about DK. Its a lot better to read thing like that when ppl actually use some info instead of "its a big number!! OP!!!".

PvP_Exploiter

Currently DKs in PvE use bi-stat food (no recovery) and take out a point from Battle Roar as sustain is too good.

Or parse food and no battle roar in Cloudrest.

It's way too strong currently.

joseayalac

@Sleeping_OwI don't worry, you won't feel the Combustion nerf as much. You're not proccing it every 0.5 seconds anyway, I can assure you that. You should check how often you're proccing the effect and you will see that you'll barely, if at all, feel the change.

I've mained a DK since Beta and I can assure you that even with the nerfs, DKs are in a better spot than a year ago.

axi

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

Only IF you build around that passive and Charged trait, not for most players. For example my off-hand dagger is charged, and looking at my parse video, the times when I switch between bars I reapply burning/poison every 4/5 secs, and when I'm on my front bar I apply them about every 2 seconds on average. So for most players, it was never THAT strong to begin with. They should've nerfed Charged imo, not Combustion, or at least make the nerf more reasonable, like 1 or 2 seconds cooldown, not a whopping 3 seconds, that's just simply too much.

What do You mean by "only IF"? It's a part of meta right now on every parse DD in PvE to run with dual wield and to have one weapon with charged trait. You dont build around that passive this way You are just simply having charged trait like everyone else and as a DK You benefit from it more than others. Fact that for many people "it was never THAT strong" really doesn't matter because developer is making balance decision based on what seems to be overperforming not based on what most of casual players is running with. I agree though that they could reconsider execution of this nerf since overbuffed charged trait played big part in combustion overperforming.

SammyKhajit

This one was having fun trying out a DK healer (PVE), and was about to craft some sets for the character.

Guess the plan is scrapped

ResidentContrarian

Browiseth wrote: »

the funny thing is that pvp and pve are already balanced differently so why don't zos just bite the bullet and double down on applying different attributes for skills or gear in pvp zones

seriously its like we all forget battle spirit exists

Maybe because that might add an additional load on the servers for every single skill cast that wasn't there before?

Arthtur

axi wrote: »

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Well as i said on PTS, my setup with "good" sustain on stamDK on live is "barerly enough" to sustain after those nerfs. "barerly" after throwing out Major Resolve and Burning Embers..
And 1 thing. Its worse than before DK Love patch. Even with buffed charged. The only reason MagDK is able to barerly sustain is because of hybrisation while StamDK cant rly sustain whip without investing rly heavy into it.

I said all those things already and im kinda too tired to say them again. Everyone can go on PTS and see how this looked. Ppl saying that this passive needs 10s CD, thats DK hits too hard to have good sustain (even tho ppl didnt had problems with damage nerfs at all. They just didint want terrible sustain again) and "its 4k every 2s!" without any proof (on my parses i got max 901 per s. And it hurt more than helped with sustain. i could compare this to "Nerf Streak" or "Nerf Cloak" threads. Only diffrence is that ZOS listened to it.

Anyway, its not first time. Stay safe and dont give up.

Ahhh and also. They said They would buff weaker skills. I didnt saw any "good" buffs to NB/Warden. So yeah. Nice "buffs" for weaker skills.

901k per s is the equivalent of 1800 regen. for a passive skill. it was beyond over performing, the hardest thing about playing DK in PVE was keeping your mag low enough for bahsei to be worth it.
DK is designed to burn their resources and then refill them with their ult. That's why the dev note says they intended to have periods of huge, expensive damage.
That's why their weapon damage buff also gives 40% increase do heavy attack damage.
That's why the current dps meta is basically as many DK's as you can bring. They are hitting insanely hard all the time and getting all the sustain they need from a passive.

It's arguable that the nerf is too heavy handed at 3s but 0.5s is way too often.

Only IF you build around that passive and Charged trait, not for most players. For example my off-hand dagger is charged, and looking at my parse video, the times when I switch between bars I reapply burning/poison every 4/5 secs, and when I'm on my front bar I apply them about every 2 seconds on average. So for most players, it was never THAT strong to begin with. They should've nerfed Charged imo, not Combustion, or at least make the nerf more reasonable, like 1 or 2 seconds cooldown, not a whopping 3 seconds, that's just simply too much.

What do You mean by "only IF"? It's a part of meta right now on every parse DD in PvE to run with dual wield and to have one weapon with charged trait. You dont build around that passive this way You are just simply having charged trait like everyone else and as a DK You benefit from it more than others. Fact that for many people "it was never THAT strong" really doesn't matter because developer is making balance decision based on what seems to be overperforming not based on what most of casual players is running with. I agree though that they could reconsider execution of this nerf since overbuffed charged trait played big part in combustion overperforming.

I just wanna say something about this "It's a part of meta right now on every parse DD in PvE to run with dual wield and to have one weapon with charged trait." as this is part of the problem too. DK always had to "invest" into sustain by using charged weapon. When charged was weaker it was okay as they were "losing" something for that. Now charged is meta on every class making its no longer an investment for DK to run it. This should be looked at too before nerfing this passive into the ground as without charged its rly weak(for comparison, without charged u wont get even half of the numbers that ppl get). So if in future charged would be nerfed... well i guess everyone can imagine what it would mean for DKs.

EF321

The only bad thing they did was changing completely how Draugrkin grip set functions. They had three numbers to work with - cooldown, duration and added flat damage. They chose to completely change how set functions, instead of debuff applied to target it is now constant effect on yourself. Meaning your setup with arena front and backbar Draugrkin resto staff is now not functional at all.

Changing existing numbers is okay. Making existing setups non-functional at all is not.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Welcome to Sorc world since launch!!!

acastanza_ESO

DKs desperately needed to be nerfed. They're dramatically overperforming in both PVP and PVE. In PVP they're unkillable, with perfect ability to CC, and massive damage output. They're also completely owning the top of the DPS leaderboards in PVE. It's insane and couldn't continue. Heck, I'm not even convinced that this nerf is enough.

Marginis

Browiseth wrote: »

the funny thing is that pvp and pve are already balanced differently so why don't zos just bite the bullet and double down on applying different attributes for skills or gear in pvp zones

seriously its like we all forget battle spirit exists

I mean, it's not like that changes behavior with individual abilities or sets. The idea is that whatever things players use to customize their builds behave the way players expect. Battle spirit is just a general buff/debuff that is extremely predictable, and applies to everything. It's not like in PVE an ability does an aoe heal and in PVP it's a ranged stun or some crazy shenanigans like that.

Thecompton73

Arthtur wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

The only fights I have ever given up on were against today's DK.

Good that they are being nerfed.

When 5 or 6 players cannot touch a DK, when they are working together, something is wrong.

Its not DK's fault. That's fault of the meta in PvP. Almost every class is building to be tanky and DK is the best in this meta because was designed as the tank. If healing would stop being so strong in PvP DK wouldnt be so OP anymore. But ppl said a lot of times already that Cross healing and hybrisation give too much healing to everyone...

What you're ignoring is that while all classes are building tankier only DK and Templar are so tanky that they can stand their ground to fight 4 people yet still build to have the damage to decimate other players in 1-2 GCDs by simply using class abilities. Those two classes don't need to crutch on proc sets such as Caluurion's like a NB or Dark Conversion like a Necro does.
And the difference between DK and Templar this patch has simply been that an outnumbered Templar getting constantly pressured eventually runs out of resources while a Dk basically has infinite sustain. Both are extremely OP for the length a typical PvP fight lasts; and Templars are losing the insanely high heals from living dark to bring them back in line.
Now if a DK wants to build to be tanky and have good sustain so it takes a half hour for 5-6 players to kill them that's all good. But when they can get do that simply from class passives and abilities while being able to wear nothing but stat buffing damage sets so they can also consistently pump out enough damage to kill other tanky players instantly that's an issue. And the reason 75% of the players in Cyro are on DK's right now.
And to the OP's assertion that the nerfs are a response solely to PvP concerns: What do you think influenced the Devs more, anecdotal stories of DK's told by PvP players in the forums or hard evidence in the form of in-game PvE leaderboards, on which DK's are placing in 95 out of the top 100 spots week in and week out?

ResidentContrarian

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

The only fights I have ever given up on were against today's DK.

Good that they are being nerfed.

When 5 or 6 players cannot touch a DK, when they are working together, something is wrong.

Its not DK's fault. That's fault of the meta in PvP. Almost every class is building to be tanky and DK is the best in this meta because was designed as the tank. If healing would stop being so strong in PvP DK wouldnt be so OP anymore. But ppl said a lot of times already that Cross healing and hybrisation give too much healing to everyone...

What you're ignoring is that while all classes are building tankier only DK and Templar are so tanky that they can stand their ground to fight 4 people yet still build to have the damage to decimate other players in 1-2 GCDs by simply using class abilities. Those two classes don't need to crutch on proc sets such as Caluurion's like a NB or Dark Conversion like a Necro does.
And the difference between DK and Templar this patch has simply been that an outnumbered Templar getting constantly pressured eventually runs out of resources while a Dk basically has infinite sustain. Both are extremely OP for the length a typical PvP fight lasts; and Templars are losing the insanely high heals from living dark to bring them back in line.
Now if a DK wants to build to be tanky and have good sustain so it takes a half hour for 5-6 players to kill them that's all good. But when they can get do that simply from class passives and abilities while being able to wear nothing but stat buffing damage sets so they can also consistently pump out enough damage to kill other tanky players instantly that's an issue. And the reason 75% of the players in Cyro are on DK's right now.
And to the OP's assertion that the nerfs are a response solely to PvP concerns: What do you think influenced the Devs more, anecdotal stories of DK's told by PvP players in the forums or hard evidence in the form of in-game PvE leaderboards, on which DK's are placing in 95 out of the top 100 spots week in and week out?

I don't know, from what I've seen Necro and WArden can do the same thing to an extent and it's more because of gear they refuse to nerf like Pariah, Malacath (removes the damage penalty of low crit), Frenzied Momentum, etc.

I mean, it's to the point that being vamp and slotting the known "OP" gear gives a massive advantage vs anyone that isn't slotting it on any class.

The game's balance is a joke and has been since mythics were introduced.