DKs changes in 8.0.3

taugrim

It's almost as if Zenimax read and comprehended the dozens (hundreds?) of posts beseeching them to bring DK into some semblance of balance.

---

Burning Embers (morph): Reduced the healing value from this morph to up to 50%, down from up to 100%.
Developer Comment:

Right now, the healing values from this ability are enabling the Dragonknight too much staying power. While we want to retain the ability to reward the caster for going in and dotting up their foes, the raw damage and healing from this ability is simply too much in its current form.

Combustion: This passive now has a cooldown of 3 seconds, up from .5 seconds
Developer Comment:

This passive is enabling a lot of sustain in situations where you're building around it with status chance increases, allowing the Dragonknight to sustain effortlessly with a few passive options. The class was originally meant to struggle more with sustain, with larger moments of burst with Battle Roar and Combustion procs peppered in. While we love the synergy here with some more niche gameplay elements like Charged and focusing on status effects, this passive was removing one of the core weaknesses of the class that kept it in check in many areas. As such, we're increasing the cooldown in hopes to bring back some of the natural difficulty the class has with keeping the pedal to metal, while still being more viable than it was when its flames were more like embers

Coagulating Blood (morph):

• This morph no longer reduces in cost, but instead increases the healing bonus based on your missing Health to 50%, up from 33%.
• The healing bonus is now a true value, rather than an additive value.
• Reduced the base healing of the skill by approximately 3% to fix some calculation errors.

Developer Comment:

This skill is currently enabling the Dragonknight to bounce back from near death situations a little too frequently, where its significant cost reduction compared to other burst heals of its nature is allowing it to be cast with reckless abandon. By taking away the cost reduction bonus on the morph, we needed to find another morph empowerment to ensure the skill felt like it was gaining something, rather than changing something. As the skill IS meant to bring you back from Death's Door, we wanted to reinforce this with the execute scaling increase, but hopefully we see the frequency of returning from the brink a little less frequently.

---

EDIT: some players are claiming that these nerfs are due to PVP.

If you look at the data from high-end progression guilds — see spoiler below with DPS charts — MagDK is dominating the charts in PVE DPS.

It's objectively clear that MagDK is over-performing in both PVE and PVP.

Aldoss wrote: »

@Galiferno here are the top dps numbers for all vRG HM prog bosses currently:

Oaxiltso


Bahsei


Xalvakka


I'll happily admit that this isn't full proof, but vRG is the newest trial and one that all the elite PvE prog groups are running on a consistent and serious basis. There's a reason why they're comprised so heavily of magdks.

Mr_Stach

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

J18696

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

The reason why I think it was over performing is being able to proc it multiple times a second on different targets

As for dragon blood I'm not sure it could be fine I guess we will see

Minalan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

Whip damage will go down some when people need to build into sustain again.

taugrim

J18696 wrote: »

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

Even if it procs only once every 5 seconds, that's still 200 resource per second, or 400 recovery (every 2 seconds).

That's pretty baller for a passive you get for just using your abilities.

So I disagree that the change was too much.

Vildebill

Yet another time crying on the forums lead to nerfs. How fun...The embers change I can get from a PvP perspective, but it'll hurt in PvE. And that combustion change is just pure *insert voluntary word of profanity here*.

MashmalloMan

Vildebill wrote: »

Yet another time crying on the forums lead to nerfs. How fun...The embers change I can get from a PvP perspective, but it'll hurt in PvE. And that combustion change is just pure *insert voluntary word of profanity here*.

It was pretty unanimous that DK was overperforming, even by DK mains. If you think this is just because of an over exaggeration you're kidding yourself.

Did we ask for 3s on combustion, no, but it's still a nuts passive that works through block.

Mr_Stach

That's the way of Zos' Patented "Sledgehammer Nerf" System

MashmalloMan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

That's the way of Zos' Patented "Sledgehammer Nerf" System

Lol yeah, but at least it was actually on point instead of nerfing something no one had an issue with.

Looking at you Arctic Blast >>

J18696

taugrim wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

Even if it procs only once every 5 seconds, that's still 200 resource per second, or 400 recovery (every 2 seconds).

That's pretty baller for a passive you get for just using your abilities.

So I disagree that the change was too much.

Meanwhile classes like nb and sorc get passives that end up giving more than 200 regen like for example 15% to all 3 regens from nb passives sorc gets 10% mag and stam regen from passives

I give you that this will proc stam back through block back and you can't guarantee a status can proc on cooldown unless you spam embers and no one is seriously doing this so its not even a certain thing

I still think 3 seconds is alittle to much im not saying it should be the old value though I really think it should be 1 second or 1.5 seconds seems reasonable to me especially if they are going to double down on this idea that dk class identity is having high costing skills

Veg

Be a zeni dev
Dk has had horrible sustain since dynamic ult gen was removed
Do nothing for 7 years
Everyone laughs at DK's for being a horrible class
Finally buff DK sustain
Nerf it back to what originally was


PROGRESS

Mr_Stach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

That's the way of Zos' Patented "Sledgehammer Nerf" System

Lol yeah, but at least it was actually on point instead of nerfing something no one had an issue with.

Looking at you Arctic Blast >>

You mean slightly cold breeze

Vaoh

Want to see an example of what balancing the game strictly through a spreadsheet looks like?
Here you go:
Combustion gets a 600% nerf.

Smh

MashmalloMan

J18696 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

Even if it procs only once every 5 seconds, that's still 200 resource per second, or 400 recovery (every 2 seconds).

That's pretty baller for a passive you get for just using your abilities.

So I disagree that the change was too much.

Meanwhile classes like nb and sorc get passives that end up giving more than 200 regen like for example 15% to all 3 regens from nb passives sorc gets 10% mag and stam regen from passives I give you that this will proc stam back through block back but I still think 3 seconds is alittle to much im not saying it should be the old value though I really think it should be 1 second or 1.5 seconds seems reasonable to me especially if they are going to double down on this idea that dk class identity is having high costing skills

Those passives are severly underpowered, I wouldn't make that type of comparison if you're building an argument.

As an example, lets get a baseline. Major Endurance and 5 Medium. That's 50%, easy and common to get, probably the minimum multiplier you'll have with a potential to get around 70-80%.

1. Necro gives 200 mag/stam regen just for using a pet. Add that baseline 50% and you get 300 mag/stam regen.
2. Sorc and NB give 10-20% regen. For that regen to match 300 mag/stam regen, we would need a base value of 3000 (10%) to 1500 (20%). How many build do you know that invest 1500-3000 mag/stam regen beofre multipliers? Personally, I aim for 1700-2000 stam regen AFTER multipliers. It's really not giving as much as it looks at face value.
3. Stam regen doesn't tick through block.
4. Mag/Stam regen ticks once every 2s.

So 1k stam/mag return every 3s converted into regen would be like saying +666 stam/mag regen (If you were constantly proccing it).

It needs to be in combat and relies on a proc condition, but works through block and mistform. I think the fact that it's double one of the strongest regen passives in the game from Necro, shows how much power it really offers.

Do I agree with the 3s? Nah, I think it would of been better as 2s or a lower CD with a lower value to reinforce the application status application use.

Obviously Sorc has Cost reduction too so it's not like that's the only passive, but so does DK from Ult Use so. NB doesn't even have an alternative, they've got return on kill and a Resource Regen skill. DK doesn't need to use a resource regen skill because their ult is one. The comparison to 1 passive is not a vaild argument imo.

Cast_El

This is good.not enough but good though.
You want more regen? Heavy attack.... Drop heavy armor piece, use recovery glyph, mundus stone, cp point....

And now how do you want to complain about healing of 50% missing health with one skill?

Zatox

play card game, combat balance is not a first things anymore

Mr_Stach

I refuse. Video Game Card Games are not why I play Video Games

divnyi

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

Whip hits approx the same as most damage bombs - bound armaments, merciless resolve.
I'd change utility of this skill rather than damage.

I don't understand why whip should not lose charges on Dodge. It makes no sense. Dodge is costly counterplay. Why DK can just reuse whip after dodge?

Gaining charges on blank skill use without hitting anything is also not right. Charge on damage from those skills would be more fair.

AuraNebula

Good. I am tired of fighting a sea of DKs with a few waves of templars. Every class should have strengths AND weaknesses. Not infinite sustain, healing to full health, and the highest damage in game.

It's about time.

J18696

MashmalloMan wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

Even if it procs only once every 5 seconds, that's still 200 resource per second, or 400 recovery (every 2 seconds).

That's pretty baller for a passive you get for just using your abilities.

So I disagree that the change was too much.

Meanwhile classes like nb and sorc get passives that end up giving more than 200 regen like for example 15% to all 3 regens from nb passives sorc gets 10% mag and stam regen from passives I give you that this will proc stam back through block back but I still think 3 seconds is alittle to much im not saying it should be the old value though I really think it should be 1 second or 1.5 seconds seems reasonable to me especially if they are going to double down on this idea that dk class identity is having high costing skills

Those passives are severly underpowered, I wouldn't make that type of comparison if you're building an argument.

As an example, lets get a baseline. Major Endurance and 5 Medium. That's 50%, easy and common to get, probably the minimum multiplier you'll have with a potential to get around 70-80%.

1. Necro gives 200 mag/stam regen just for using a pet. Add that baseline 50% and you get 300 mag/stam regen.
2. Sorc and NB give 10-20% regen. For that regen to match 300 mag/stam regen, we would need a base value of 3000 (10%) to 1500 (20%). How many build do you know that invest 1500-3000 mag/stam regen beofre multipliers? Personally, I aim for 1700-2000 stam regen AFTER multipliers. It's really not giving as much as it looks at face value.
3. Stam regen doesn't tick through block.
4. Mag/Stam regen ticks once every 2s.

So 1k stam/mag return every 3s converted into regen would be like saying +666 stam/mag regen (If you were constantly proccing it).

It needs to be in combat and relies on a proc condition, but works through block and mistform. I think the fact that it's double one of the strongest regen passives in the game from Necro, shows how much power it really offers.

Do I agree with the 3s? Nah, I think it would of been better as 2s or a lower CD with a lower value to reinforce the application status application use.

Obviously Sorc has Cost reduction too so it's not like that's the only passive, but so does DK from Ult Use so. NB doesn't even have an alternative, they've got return on kill and a Resource Regen skill. DK doesn't need to use a resource regen skill because their ult is one. The comparison to 1 passive is not a vaild argument imo.

My point was missed that this isn't guaranteed regen like other classes this is based off proc conditions of a status effect

If the status isn't proccing in 2 second from cooldown end thats regen loss sure running charged on both weapons or just one if you are using 2h weapons could fix that but not everyone is doing that even still dk skills cost a arm and a leg already I think its a terrible way to desgin a class identity around "oh look at that it's skills cost more than my mortgage must be a dk"

Reguardless I just think 3 seconds is to much I could agree 2s could be a option I would personally be ok with

Side note just something to think about everyone using dk atm in pve is using double charged and that's where the sustain issue is actually rampant so is the passive the problem or charged trait giving like 300+ % proc chance

olsborg

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

I too think molten whip will still be hitting too hard, couple that with the best by far ultimate in the game, corrosive and you can just call it molten whipe.

Mr_Stach

So I think Zos should do what Zos Does best, increase the Build up. Increase the Stacks to 5, lower the value on each stack to say 20% & 45 weapon/Spell Damage. You get to the same place but just got to work for it a bit more.

Veg

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

Dracane

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

Tannus15

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

additionally sustain is easier to achieve at moment since mag dk can use strong stam morphs like venom claw to reduce their mag drain.

Veg

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

bachpain

Both Magplars and MagDKs needed some adjustments. Any time you can put all of your gear into a glass cannon build stacking only spell damage and being perfectly viable to deal damage, stay alive, and sustain something is severely wrong. Both classes were in that category. Did they go too far? I don't know; we will know before too long if people do some testing on the PTS.

Dracane

Veg wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

I must say that you are extremely wrong if you claim that DK didn't receive considerable damage boosts in recent years. Whip is one of them, but you must be new.
Therefor you probably don't know either that DK always had exceptional damage pressure in pvp and has been top pve dps since... well since the game exists. Sometimes they shared the throne with Magblade, that's all.

DK always had unparalleled dps, no matter how they built and now it has gotten to a point, where it's simply too much and they'll have to (maybe) make some choices again.

Finedaible

Veg wrote: »

Be a zeni dev
Dk has had horrible sustain since dynamic ult gen was removed
Do nothing for 7 years
Everyone laughs at DK's for being a horrible class
Finally buff DK sustain
Nerf it back to what originally was


PROGRESS

Didn't they also intentionally buff charged trait about a year or two ago specifically with the intent of increasing DK sustain?

Bl4ckR3alm93

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

I disagree. DKs do not have an execute unlike other classes such as Sorcerers, NB and Templars. Whip doesnt hit that hard and Sorcs get a similar damage bonus with their Crystal Frags. I think people are complaining waaay too much in my opinion. The sustain nerf ok but I still think its too much when other classes have regen passives as well

Bl4ckR3alm93

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

I must say that you are extremely wrong if you claim that DK didn't receive considerable damage boosts in recent years. Whip is one of them, but you must be new.
Therefor you probably don't know either that DK always had exceptional damage pressure in pvp and has been top pve dps since... well since the game exists. Sometimes they shared the throne with Magblade, that's all.

DK always had unparalleled dps, no matter how they built and now it has gotten to a point, where it's simply too much and they'll have to (maybe) make some choices again.

DK has not been Top DPS in PVE since game released lmao. Your literally over exaggerating and everyone knows that Sorcerer's are the Top damage and back then it was no question when Sorcerers had the Implosion passive. You can literally go on YouTube right now and you will see that DKs up until last year was always in the bottom in terms of PVE because of lack of sustain and execution skill back then. DKs have only been this OP twice before. Last year up until now and 2 years ago but was very sort lived in both timelines.