DKs changes in 8.0.3

Bl4ckR3alm93

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

Bro literally and everyone thats trying to disagree with you obviously have not played every class because literally this nerf set them back further then the original change lol. Literally they might as well give us the 500 every 0.5 seconds back. This change made no sense

Veg

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

I must say that you are extremely wrong if you claim that DK didn't receive considerable damage boosts in recent years. Whip is one of them, but you must be new.
Therefor you probably don't know either that DK always had exceptional damage pressure in pvp and has been top pve dps since... well since the game exists. Sometimes they shared the throne with Magblade, that's all.

DK always had unparalleled dps, no matter how they built and now it has gotten to a point, where it's simply too much and they'll have to (maybe) make some choices again.

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

I must say that you are extremely wrong if you claim that DK didn't receive considerable damage boosts in recent years. Whip is one of them, but you must be new.
Therefor you probably don't know either that DK always had exceptional damage pressure in pvp and has been top pve dps since... well since the game exists. Sometimes they shared the throne with Magblade, that's all.

DK always had unparalleled dps, no matter how they built and now it has gotten to a point, where it's simply too much and they'll have to (maybe) make some choices again.

Show me 1 dev quote that increases tooltip damage of a DK ability from the past 7 years. It was literally all sustain buffs (very recently). The damage was always there. Every class has always had the raw damage numbers. If you wanted a 26k tooltip on leap 3 years ago then you could have had it. The only thing holding anyone back from going full glass canon has been sustain.

Melzo

I wish my necromancer's skull got a 70 percent bonus on 3 hits instead of a miserable 20. Dk with a pissed whip and a sorcerer with his crystal complain about life. You went...

taugrim

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

I disagree. DKs do not have an execute unlike other classes such as Sorcerers, NB and Templars. Whip doesnt hit that hard and Sorcs get a similar damage bonus with their Crystal Frags.

Half of the classes do not have an execute.

NB execute is trash in PVP.

Whip hits incredibly hard LOL.

Arthtur

Now DK has WORSE sustain than before buffs. Amazing. So we are back to having the worst sustain in the game but its even worse than before. Amazing balance.

Amazing "love for DKs". Just butchering this class again.

Urzigurumash

Arthtur wrote: »

Now DK has WORSE sustain than before buffs. Amazing. So we are back to having the worst sustain in the game but its even worse than before. Amazing balance.

Amazing "love for DKs". Just butchering this class again.

Something had to give, do you not agree? And is Combustion worse with new Charged than it was before the recent buffs to either? We kept the change to Battle Roar which was, from my perspective, the most important buff we could have, and which was possibly due to us immediately after the removal of sources of Dynamic Ult Gen which happened in the first few years of this game. I saw this change less as a buff and more as a "correction".

I'm just a mid-tier PvP StamDK, but I'm rank 50 with over 5k hours on the class and I think the changes are good.

Of course we are unable to get quite the mileage out of Combustion that Mag is, and personally I thought running Burning Embers on StamDK was rather silly, since Venomous Claw was one of the skills which first gave StamDK some offensive potential that StamSorc did not have.

As was Corrosive - and I'm thankful the calls to nerf it were not heeded, since I always found Spell Wall on PvP StamDK to be immensely distasteful, despite being a popular choice among YouTubers and such.

As for Dragonblood, I think the Patch Notes comment was spot on. It isn't true that we bounce back from 0 to 100 with one cast, actually it takes 2 or 3, but those 2 or 3 are easy enough to spam even on StamDK.

Yes, sustain and mobility are our baked-in limitations, this is how it must be, contrary to the frequent remarks on this forum that DK has "too much defense and too much damage". We're supposed to be the "Knight" class - powerful but slow.

Arthtur

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Now DK has WORSE sustain than before buffs. Amazing. So we are back to having the worst sustain in the game but its even worse than before. Amazing balance.

Amazing "love for DKs". Just butchering this class again.

Something had to give, do you not agree? And is Combustion worse with new Charged than it was before the recent buffs to either? We kept the change to Battle Roar which was, from my perspective, the most important buff we could have, and which was possibly due to us immediately after the removal of sources of Dynamic Ult Gen which happened in the first few years of this game. I saw this change less as a buff and more as a "correction".

I'm just a mid-tier PvP StamDK, but I'm rank 50 with over 5k hours on the class and I think the changes are good.

Of course we are unable to get quite the mileage out of Combustion that Mag is, and personally I thought running Burning Embers on StamDK was rather silly, since Venomous Claw was one of the skills which first gave StamDK some offensive potential that StamSorc did not have.

As was Corrosive - and I'm thankful the calls to nerf it were not heeded, since I always found Spell Wall on PvP StamDK to be immensely distasteful, despite being a popular choice among YouTubers and such.

As for Dragonblood, I think the Patch Notes comment was spot on. It isn't true that we bounce back from 0 to 100 with one cast, actually it takes 2 or 3, but those 2 or 3 are easy enough to spam even on StamDK.

Yes, sustain and mobility are our baked-in limitations, this is how it must be, contrary to the frequent remarks on this forum that DK has "too much defense and too much damage". We're supposed to be "Knight" class - powerful but slow.

What?
Okay let me write more.

Old version of combustion(before buffs):
500 stamina/magicka with 0.5s cd. With charged weapon it was around 200-300 per second. Stamina was getting less because of the lack of poison skills.
In addition 25% cost reduction for poison skills.
Opinion of community - class with the worst sustain in the game.

Combustion on live:
1000 stamina/magicka with 0.5s cd. With charged weapon u get around 500-600 per second. Thanks to hybrisation stam dk can use whip as a spammable which helped a lot with sustain. Sustain on Bow/Bow DK was nerfed tho(25% reduction was better than this buff).

New version of combustion:
1000 stamina/magicka with 3s cd. With charged weapon u will proc it every 6-7s i think and its around 175 per second. And there is nothing extra like 25% cost reduction. Its worse than before the buffs....

And battle roar... The change doesnt matter if u have to use ultimate on cd.
Sure it will help good players who will kill the Boss before sustain will become the problem. But in the longer fights or for weaker players this doesnt matter that much.

So, we have worse sustain than before even with buffed charged. Oh and we HAVE to take charged weapon. Without it i dont know if we will get even 130 per second...

And yes its PvE side of view. It was first time when i actually had so much fun with dk. Finally i didnt had to focus so much on sustain. I still had to use parse food but that was okay.
But i heard that DK was too strong in PvP and it needed nerfs. I didnt had any problems with that. I just said to not touch sustain. And they nerfed sustain so much its worse than before.

So after all what did i got? Extra target on FoO. "Free" aoe if i use cost reduction enchants (yey investing into sustain). Whip because of hybrisation. Aaaaaaand.... 5 percent bonus damage to poison skills. ....amazing. what poison skills btw?

If i seem salty its because im sad. Its not fun playing when u have to focus more on sustain than on playing. I love my DK but... I already have to invest into sustain. How much more i have to sacrifice?

So how should i call class that has worse sustain than the worst class in the game? Non existing class?
Yeah u can blame me now and tell me how wrong im. I will die from joy if im wrong.

Urzigurumash

@Arthtur

Fair enough, I trust all your math there. To be honest I have no idea about PvE or Bow/Bow DK. My comments strictly pertain to PvP, and more precisely to a traditional view of what PvP StamDK should be - a slow, damage dealing tank-like thing.

Vizir

Minalan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

Whip damage will go down some when people need to build into sustain again.

Well in all fairness nobody builds into sustain on any class in pvp. I use sugar skulls on all classes, magdk was the only I've needed to use a cost reduction glyph on in many years.

Whip damage will definitely go down because the cost was always much higher than every other spammable in the game. You have to refresh dots far sooner than ideal for whip to be effective, driving up the actual cost of using it. If you actually use it as a spammable and not just when it has multiple stacks, in which case it is actually one of the worst spammables in the game, only exception might be necro skulls but that is ranged and venom skull stacks less but easier.

AdamLAD

Amazing now everyone will flock to temp. Because thats also broke. Or a calurrions ganker which is also broke. But tbf dk sustain was way overtuned glad it got its deserved nerf

BahometZ

All these people happy to see a class get dragged down, instead of buffing other classes. Don't @ me that nerfing one thing is easier than buffing everything everything else, as if Zenimax can't control how much resources they want to put into making the game balanced.

Class loyalty is for suckers, just play what is currently good.

Sorc is good, DK is good, cro is good. Plar, blade and warden need effort put into them.

Lailaamell

Arthtur wrote: »

Now DK has WORSE sustain than before buffs. Amazing. So we are back to having the worst sustain in the game but its even worse than before. Amazing balance.

Amazing "love for DKs". Just butchering this class again.

Your dmg was to high

Lailaamell

Feel like this nerf was bit not enough whip needs a dmg nerf dk has always had the tank mentality in mind dk will still be to strong in sustain after this nerf

Van_Winkle

Guys, you must cry MORE about the nerfs! Until Zeny nerf every class and every skill, so we will fight each other with stones and sticks. And seems no one care about hordes of templars with great sustain and damage. No sir, they are balanced!

Integral1900

Got to take the fun out, DK have been the red headed step child of ESO for over half a decade now

Still not gonna use the dull scoobe doo necromancer or that five minutes bodge job warden with its atrocious cut and paste animations

Lailaamell

Van_Winkle wrote: »

Guys, you must cry MORE about the nerfs! Until Zeny nerf every class and every skill, so we will fight each other with stones and sticks. And seems no one care about hordes of templars with great sustain and damage. No sir, they are balanced!

Templars is probly the main of many so they dont complain alot

Rhaegar75

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

I totally agree with you and this is considering my main char is a plar. This passive needed tuning not butchering...simple

The healing, however, required tuning down a lot...maybe not that much though

Rhavein

taugrim wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

I think the embers change is reasonable but I would have rather seen a 1 second cooldown on combustion than a 3 second

Even if it procs only once every 5 seconds, that's still 200 resource per second, or 400 recovery (every 2 seconds).

That's pretty baller for a passive you get for just using your abilities.

So I disagree that the change was too much.

exactly this. there is no sledgehammer, nothing is over the top. still fossilize + corrosive + whip combo is the best, sustain is still op even with every 3 seconds and the embers was just absurd.

Ragnaroek93

At the first look I think the nerfs seem to be a bit over the top but needs to be tested first. We're talking about a class which can play naked and still be a threat in duels after all, it's obvious that this class was over the top. I expect them to be still good but fall behind templar and maybe even necro.

Hotdog_23

Dk was finally fun again not having to fight sustain so much.

Worse sustain then before the buff . Guess I must use Charged now on my DK’s weapons unlike every other class that gets a choice. Charged was the problem not the sustain built into the class. Charged was over buffed.

Burning Embers should have been changed to 75% instead of 50% so the healing value would be the same as before the change in update 33. I agree the 100% was to much but now DK has been over nerfed in my opinion.

Coagulating Blood change, funny how no change was made to Necro’s cheap healing ghost in comparison or Sorcerer Critical Surge, granted you must crit which is not much or a go in PVP, but not really an issue in PVE.

All the Dk nerfs are strictly PVP reasons.

While talking about DK’s, think Molten Whip should also give you a stack of seething fury considering that nothing is meant to be spammable in the Ardent skill line.

The official theme for the DK is (“Fire and Fury”), guess we need to add “struggle more with sustain” also.

Stay safe

Dracane

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

This would be true if we only looked at sustain. Many more DK buffs than just sustain have went into the land, wouldn't you agree? DK has a lot more damage than it used to while some classes have hardly or at all changed in terms of damage output in years.

They never made any changes to damage done in the massive DK buff patch. The only thing that could be considered a damage buff is the extended timer on molten whip (was 5 seconds is now 10). All of the changes were to sustain. Combustion was doubled, dragon blood cost was reduced and some other abilities got cost reduction (eruption).

The only reason you can see Mag DK's doing any burst damage right now is because they no longer have to fully spec into sustain. This places them at the same spot as every other class. Nerf the damage if you think it's too much.

So yes I am correct in saying that DK's are getting nerfed to a point that's worse than what the entire player base had acknowledged as the worst class for sustain. If new sets can hold the class up then god bless. I'll still be bash weaving with power slam and completely ignoring the combustion passive.

I must say that you are extremely wrong if you claim that DK didn't receive considerable damage boosts in recent years. Whip is one of them, but you must be new.
Therefor you probably don't know either that DK always had exceptional damage pressure in pvp and has been top pve dps since... well since the game exists. Sometimes they shared the throne with Magblade, that's all.

DK always had unparalleled dps, no matter how they built and now it has gotten to a point, where it's simply too much and they'll have to (maybe) make some choices again.

DK has not been Top DPS in PVE since game released lmao. Your literally over exaggerating and everyone knows that Sorcerer's are the Top damage and back then it was no question when Sorcerers had the Implosion passive. You can literally go on YouTube right now and you will see that DKs up until last year was always in the bottom in terms of PVE because of lack of sustain and execution skill back then. DKs have only been this OP twice before. Last year up until now and 2 years ago but was very sort lived in both timelines.

The thing is that my information does not stem from dummy parses (which mean nothing) but from Esologs where we can see classes in real scenarios. Sorcerer does not even get mentioned on there except in Asylum Sanctorium.

Dracane

BahometZ wrote: »

All these people happy to see a class get dragged down, instead of buffing other classes. Don't @ me that nerfing one thing is easier than buffing everything everything else, as if Zenimax can't control how much resources they want to put into making the game balanced.

Class loyalty is for suckers, just play what is currently good.

Sorc is good, DK is good, cro is good. Plar, blade and warden need effort put into them.

It's everyone's fantasy that an MMO only buffs and rarely nerfs. I wish that as well.
Truth is, it will never happen because devs have some twisted ideas how a class has to perform and what it is permitted to be strong at.

PvP_Exploiter

Veg wrote: »

I would just like to add that the combustion passive used to restore 500 magic or stam at a max rate of every 0.5 seconds. This was when Dk's were still the worst class for sustain. The new 1000 per 3 seconds is WORSE than when the class was at the bottom for sustain.

This means that DK's are being nerfed from when they were still absolute garbage.



Zenimax devs on their way to nerf literally anything

Charged has been buffed same with the damage portion of Combustion.
Should it be 3s? Probably not. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Mr_Stach

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Dk was finally fun again not having to fight sustain so much.

Worse sustain then before the buff . Guess I must use Charged now on my DK’s weapons unlike every other class that gets a choice. Charged was the problem not the sustain built into the class. Charged was over buffed.

Burning Embers should have been changed to 75% instead of 50% so the healing value would be the same as before the change in update 33. I agree the 100% was to much but now DK has been over nerfed in my opinion.

Coagulating Blood change, funny how no change was made to Necro’s cheap healing ghost in comparison or Sorcerer Critical Surge, granted you must crit which is not much or a go in PVP, but not really an issue in PVE.

All the Dk nerfs are strictly PVP reasons.

While talking about DK’s, think Molten Whip should also give you a stack of seething fury considering that nothing is meant to be spammable in the Ardent skill line.

The official theme for the DK is (“Fire and Fury”), guess we need to add “struggle more with sustain” also.

Stay safe

That's what Zos does, Sledgehammer Nerfs.

Personally I agree with nerfing Combustion..... but not that much.

Also I think Seething Fury makes Molten Whip a bit too strong, I would not nerf the damage but make it take longer to get to that big chunky whip.

Pterion87

taugrim wrote: »

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

I disagree. DKs do not have an execute unlike other classes such as Sorcerers, NB and Templars. Whip doesnt hit that hard and Sorcs get a similar damage bonus with their Crystal Frags.

Half of the classes do not have an execute.

NB execute is trash in PVP.

Whip hits incredibly hard LOL.

Who cares about PVP? Always ruin everything.

Luede

Pterion87 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

We'll see, if it actually balances it, great.

Still think Whip hits too hard, but I'll take the Sustain Nerf

I disagree. DKs do not have an execute unlike other classes such as Sorcerers, NB and Templars. Whip doesnt hit that hard and Sorcs get a similar damage bonus with their Crystal Frags.

Half of the classes do not have an execute.

NB execute is trash in PVP.

Whip hits incredibly hard LOL.

Who cares about PVP? Always ruin everything.

because your npc doesn't care if you knock him down with 100k or 110k dps, not to mention the fact that very few people here even use their pve potential. In this respect, it would be a buff for well over 90% of the players to play the rotation properly.

Shnax

If DKs are doing too much damage, just nerf the damage. For years it was annoying to play DK in PVE because sustain was always a problem. Now that was solved and the damage is amazing right now. I would be completely fine with a well measured nerf to the damage output.
But sustain problems as a core concept of a class is just bad design. Struggling with sustain is not a fun mechanic, it is just an annoyance that should be solvable within a build. Unfortunately there are very few options to do that on a PVE build while keeping up with other classes at damage output.
If ZOS is dead set on making bad sustain the main "feature" of DKs, maybe give them something else to actively combat that problem. Maybe give their DOTs a cost reduction when cast within two seconds of running out.
Or make heavy attack builds enjoyable to play and reasonably powerful, but I have no idea, how the former could be achieved.

TheKingofSass

Once again PVE players get struck by a truck (nerf) cause of PVP. They really should find a way to separate these effect. I understand the ember change for pvp, and have the passive set to 2 sec instead of 3. I understand these changes for pvp, I really do, but on PVE it feels unfair these changes.

As a main DK PVE, sustain has always been a bit rough on it in the past, I only recently came back from a long break and seeing the buffs it has gotten on live, made me enjoy playing my DK a lot, and the sustain was really nice.

Oh well.

Aldoss

All these people blaming pvpers for nerfs again...

Look at the logs. You're flat wrong! DKs are the masters of eso this patch in both PvP AND PvE and if you can't see that, then you probably spent this entire patch getting carried by the class and not actually getting better at the game.

"No one builds into sustain in pvp"

What did I just read? Dks are running around this patch with 500 regen and spamming whip, FoO, and coag like it's their job.

Nerfing charged does nothing but bring other classes down below dk. I'm using a charged frost staff on my front bar for my PvP magden. As if magdens need more nerfs...

Nerfing combustion was the only way. You might have less sustain than before, but you also have way more choices and different functioning skills than before. Whip is a 20k+ tooltip! If you want to keep that, deal with the sustain issues and murder people less. If you want to balance that out, go find some sustain and drop your damage output. No one should get all of it at the same time while other classes struggle.

Also, buff magdens. What is taking so long?!

Mr_Stach

Aldoss wrote: »

Also, buff magdens. What is taking so long?!

They're waiting for all us outspoken Warden Mains to quit rso before for they make changes so we can't be disappointed all over again.