DKs changes in 8.0.3

Bodycounter

Vildebill wrote: »

I looked at it the wrong way, not all the burning procs seems to have procced combustion. If you look at my regen combustion is for 550, not even close to 4000. So no, it doesn't work like that at all in a regular PvE rotation.

Yeah, you have to look for the regeneration. The burning status often procs in rapid succession within the 0.5 seconds so it doesn’t trigger the regeneration of Combustion. Most parses i have seen get 500-600 magicka per second. That’s why the nerf could potentially drop the regeneration below 100 magicka per second. I can’t test things currently so im unable to verify this because increasing the internal cooldown by six doesn’t necessarily mean a sixth of regeneration. I just noticed that players had sustain problems on the PTR. The behavior of hybrid builds gets even more complex after the nerf.

KoIIegoIas

*** me, i hate those quote for real. im so bad

Arthtur

Okay from the start.
1. About procing multiple status effect in 1s. Yes its possible. Nobody said that u cant do it. All the talk was about combustion and the fact that u "cant" proc it every 0.5s. So this talk about multiple at the same time is misunderstanding.
Proof:

Bodycounter wrote: »

• You get 1000 Magicka or Stamina if a status effect procs
• You generally can't proc a status effect once every 0.5 seconds
• You have to be in combat to actually proc status effects and therefore Combustion (useless out of combat)
• Combustion is now objectively worse than pre-buff version when DKs had serious sustain problems (PvE)
• The real problem with Combustion is its strength in PvP because you can sustain blocking for example

Which started:

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

...
- i am proccing 4 statuseffects in that time with one of my weaponskill's and lightattack. Pls make sure to know about combat mechanics before you comment on that.
....

Why i saying this? In order to stop this misunderstanding. We dont need unnecessary back and forth.

2. About procing combustion every 0.5s. Its half on half. Yes u can proc it at 0.5s CD. But not every time and its not worth it...
What do i mean? Well...

Compared to this:

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

...


1. First Combustion at 12.999 Seconds
2. Second Combustion 0.6 seconds later
3. Third Combustion 0,765seconds later
...

I got it exatly at 0.5s:

So yeah i have better proof agains myself than i got xD kinda funny.
But to the point. Even if got it at exactly 0.5s CD the average was still 1 per 1.21s. I couldnt even break 1s. The best i got was 1 per 1.1s But it wasnt worth it... Even with those crazy numbers i had problems with sustain....
So there is my data from my tests:

Sets: Heartland Conqueror, Law of Julianos, Kjalnar's Nightmare. Charged was 2x strong in this setup.
In every setup i had to use ultimate for magicka regen.
Food: parse food
Skills: Burning Embers, Scalding Rune, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Molten Whip, Vigor (i always have selfheal), Unstable Wall of Fire, Eruption, Camouflaged Hunter (i wasnt able to sustain more magicka skills), Molten Armaments - I could swap this and use potions which would help but i wanted more "cheaper" setup.
In short - yes i could make some better choices and burn dummy before sustain problems but that wouldnt show the point. DK even on live isnt able to sustain "pure magicka" setup in longer fights. And i didnt even use all of DK skills which cost stupid amount of magicka...
Yeah combustion has crazy numbers but what about Burning talons that cost 3483 (without cost reduction - 4050) and last 4s? xD No i didnt use it during parse. And Eruption 325 per s for 18s for total of 5850. And thats not even all... anyway...

DW 2x Charged:

1 parse - 31.3k dps. Time 1:36.
Reg 2139, Drain 2382.
Burning procs - 149x. 70x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.64s
Combustion procs - 824 per s. 79x. 1 per 1.21s.
Barerly sustained (10 more s and i would run out).
This is the parse where i got 0.5s proc.

2 parse - 32,25k dps. Time 1:33.
Reg 2099, Drain 2352.
Burning procs - 144x, 68x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.65s
Combustion procs - 815 per s. 76x. 1 per 1.22s
Barerly sustained (10 more s and i would run out)


3 parse - 32.3k dps. Time 1:33
Reg 2144, Drain 2340.
Burning Procs - 137x. 55x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.67s
Combustion procs - 882 per s. 82x. 1 per 1.13s
Barerly sustained (i had to use 2HA in order to sustain)

Inferno Staff Charged

1 parse - 31.1k dps. Time 1:37
Reg 2215, Drain 2400.
Burning Procs - 151x. 64x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.64
Combution procs - 901 per s. 87x. 1 per 1.11s
Barerly sustained (better than DW tho)

2 parse - 31.6k dps, Time 1:35
Reg 2145, Drain 2364.
Burning Procs 144. 60x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.66
Combustion procs - 883 per s. 84x. 1 per 1.13
Barerly sustained (Better than DW tho)

3 parse - 31.6k dps, Time 1:35
Reg 2141, Drain 2378.
Burning Procs 146. 66x on CD(wasted). 1 per 0.65
Combustion Procs - 839 per s. 80x. 1 per 1.18
Barerly sustained (better than DW tho)

DW Precise and Charged - this one was to show that even small change would make me unable to sustain those skills.

1 parse - 29.8k dps. Time 1:41
Reg 2033, Drain 2202.
Burning procs 92x. 26x on CD(wasted). 1 per 1.1s
Combustion procs - 655 per s. 66x. 1 per 1.53s
Run out of magicka at 500k.

2 parse - 29.7k dps. Time 1:41
Reg 1937, Drain 2189.
Burning Procs 92x. 29x on CD(wasted). 1 per 1.1s
Combustion procs - 624 per s. 63x. 1 per 1.6s
Run out of magicka at 350k.

3 parse - 30.5k dps. Time 1:39
Reg 1951, Drain 2218.
Burning Procs 97x. 29x on CD(wasted). 1 per 1.02s
Combustion Procs - 690 per s. 68x. 1 per 1.45s
Run out of magicka at 400k.

So yeah i was wrong. U can proc it at 0.5s but thats not worth it. U lose so much damage and sustain in order to do that...
To compare damage diffrence:

DW Precise/Charged
2H Backbar
Skills: Burning Embers, Barbed Trap, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Molten Whip, Vigor, Stampede, Carve, Camouflaged Hunter, Molten Armaments
Parse - 34k dps, Time 1:28.
Reg 1605, Drain 1692.
Combustion procs - 590 per s. 52x. 1 per 1.7s
Burning procs - 74x. 22x on CD(wasted). 1 per 1.2s

In this setup i didnt had any problems with sustain. 0. I could use ultimate when i wanted.

So in the end, even wth those crazy numbers, combustion isnt enough to sustain "pure magicka" build. Even if u invest rly heavy into it, DK skills costs just too much. I had problems when i didnt even use them all. But when u throw in hybrisation then u have rly good sustain.
So that change on pts forces DK into hybrid build and even then they barerly sustain. Well StamDK cant even sustain Whip and FoO on pts. But about this later.
And what can i say more? What we have on PTS forces ppl into hybrids in order to barerly sustain. Its just not okay.

3. About "stamDK"

This will be short. Just because magDK is the problem doesnt mean stamDK wont get nerfed. Nerf on PTS hits stamDK even harder than magDK. The only reason stamDK can sustain right now is Whip. Why? Well...
StamDK doesnt have enough posion skills to have any good use from Combustion. Yeah "pure stamina" Dk has problems with sustain too. And lets not talk about stone giant...
Even with whip we have to build for magicka regen. We dont have 30k+ magicka to make use from Battle Roar. The change on PTS makes it impossible to sustain whip. We dont have enough regen for that. And we dont have enough poison skills to make good use from combustion. So few patches ago they gave stamDK "stam whip" to help us (before hybrisation) and with this patch they take it away because we cant sustain it.
And dont even dream about using Major Resolve or Major Brutality from class skills.

4. About sustain.

Using my "proof" the best i could get from combustion is 901 magicka per second. Which is 1802 regen. Not even close to that 4000.
If u can at least show me proof of getting on average 1500 per s. that would be crazy.
The thing is magDK skills cost a lot more than other magicka skills. So when u see crazy number on combustion it doesnt mean its enough. As my data showed that the reason DK has good sustain now is hybrisation and not using DK skills xD.
With this change on PTS using those skills is just... suffering.

5.
And the last thing.... KoIIegoIas.
So far u only did 1 thing. U showed that i was wrong about procing combustion on 0.5CD. Except that? Nothing. You keep talking how combustion is 4k regen and the proof is 3 combustions procs in 2s time. U didnt show any average info from entire parse. U lack actually proof for your words.
[snip]

And to clear last misunderstandings:
LA dont proc status effect. LA proc Enchants and Sets that CAN proc status effects. I never wanted to talk what exactly proc it and what not.

GCD - Global Cooldown. its about skills not status effects. i didnt thing i need to explain that then but oh well. GCD is 1s, which means u cant use skills more often than every 1s. Its the same with LA but those have 0.7s CD. Which means that even using Burning Embers as a spammable u wont get under 1 per s. Yes i tested it. it was worse than any other parse i did.

[edited for mild baiting, back-and-forth]

KoIIegoIas

Bodycounter wrote: »

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

Then i show you the prove of both via parse [snip] That context was about the possibility of multiple statuseffect proc at the same time and the possibility of combustion procs every 0,5s and nothing else. Not about raidparses and what not. [snip]

You have shown a „parse“ of less than 10 seconds. Do a serious parse over a fight and show me your proc rate. I never argued about the possibility of multiple status effect procs. In PvE you care for consistent procs over time. Your statement of 4k regen through Combustion in PvE is not true and i have no idea why you are defending it so badly. And if you want proof: there are so many parses to look at! Just look at them.

Vildebill wrote: »

Just did a quick parse on the 3mil dummy on live with my regular DK rotation, and combustion procs about 1 time every second. This is double charged daggers. So even if you probably could build for more procs that 0,5 second in PvE is a number most people won't have. 1 or 2 sec cooldown on combustion would be just fine.

I looked at it the wrong way, not all the burning procs seems to have procced combustion. If you look at my regen combustion is for 550, not even close to 4000. So no, it doesn't work like that at all in a regular PvE rotation.

@Bodycounter
You did argue about the possibility in the other DK Thread in the Public Test Server Forum named ''So Where Are The mDK Nerfs?'' from Decimus. [snip]
But i proved you about the topic that Statuseffects and Combustion can proc once all 0.5 Seconds, which you always rejected until I gave you the proof in my first ''10 second parse'', which of course you wanted to make appear implausible, because these proc's could only be RNG.
In the following ''long parse'' of 5 min's that i did for you and @Vildebill that you've asked for several times, for which I put on extra little DMG gear so you can't find any excuses this time, you can see the same procchance of combustion.

@Bodycounter and @Vildebill

Here you can see a parse of 5 mins i did. Sadly this from a german client i switched back from english because didnt expect my parse of 10 seconds would seem implausible because of RNG or luck, by the opinion of @Bodycounter. So i switched it back to german client how i usually play.

On the Left side you have again the times of Combustion proc's in seconds and milliseconds. On the right side you have the the Combustion proc's converted to mana regen. My value is 330 higher than yours. But the Value still makes so sense because you clearly see on the left side, that there is not more than 1.5 seconds time between 2 combustion proc's, in case i can clearly see. If we go after the combustion 1.5 second proctime, the minimum manareg is 1.5k if i did the math's right. But 1,5 Seconds time between procs is the very minority scenario.

Again sorry for the german Client

The german word ''Verbrennung'' means Combustion

And here the parse:



[edited for discussing moderator action]

renne

Dracane wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

another class gutted due to pvp

Dk wiil now be forced to the charged trait to gain more ressourse lowering their damage to still be the worse at regen.

I don't think this is a bad thing. DK has too much damage in pvp and pve so if they finally have to make decisions like other classes, then the nerf has achieved what it was supposed to? Perhaps it's more nuanced than expected when a mere sustain nerf actually translates to a damage nerf.

Running charged is a class synergy you can do, it's a choice you have others classes may not. It's by no means a necessity anymore. As a Sorc I would also like to run charged, but I have no passive synergy with it like DK and Warden do. It's not a choice I have.

Your argument doesn't make sense, because you're saying if something is directly related to a passive/class synergy you don't have to run it, but then in the same breath saying because it's NOT a passive/class synergy for Sorc you can't run it? You can still choose to run it on a Sorc the same way you claim a DK can choose not to run it.

But that said, if it's a passive/class synergy there's not really a choice, it's required unless you're deliberately choosing to gimp your build. I think you would really struggle to find a DK in this game who is on top of their build patch to patch NOT running charged because of the synergy. Which to me says it's required, and with this nerf to combustion, it'll DEFINITELY not be a "choice".

Mr_Stach

renne

Mr_Stach wrote: »

"They can't be mad at us if they're mad at each other!" - ZOS, probably

Jokes on ZOS, I can be mad at everyone.

CyberDiva

Not sure where you guys think DK is top DPS in PvE but uh.... I get 10k dps average in PvE as a DK.... And this is using a build somebody said did lots of dps. So.....

CyberDiva

P.S. that 10k dps in on Live right now. Not PTS. This change is going to screw me over.

Mr_Stach

CyberDiva wrote: »

Not sure where you guys think DK is top DPS in PvE but uh.... I get 10k dps average in PvE as a DK.... And this is using a build somebody said did lots of dps. So.....

There is a lot of missing information here, what build, what kind of Target Dummy.

Also showing a Parse getting that would be informative. There could be a lot of user error. The build your using could be absolutely terrible.

DK is absolutely destroying the Charts in PvE

The3sFinest

CyberDiva wrote: »

Not sure where you guys think DK is top DPS in PvE but uh.... I get 10k dps average in PvE as a DK.... And this is using a build somebody said did lots of dps. So.....

If you have an efficient rotation, you can do over 100k dps. Practice is key, and do not skip light attacks.

Mr_Stach

Here's some current Logs from Live on Rockgrove. Top 20 DPS. DKs are smashing it

CyberDiva

I have all the target dummies just about. It doesn't seem to matter. Still get about 10k dps average. As for build it's a magic dragonknight thing that does fire damage.

I don't know what the build was called. It was on one of those websites. Hack the Minotaur or Xynode or something like that. I can tell you what's on it though. I only use one bar. I can't use two.

So here's one with targeting a Frost Atronach and the Orgrim and Bloodknight standing near it with how I normally press the buttons.

Target Frost Atronach: 8382.4
Target Ogrim: 2970.2
Target Bloodknight: 5211.0

CyberDiva

1. Unstable Wall of Fire IV
2. Burning Embers IV
3. Engulfing Flames IV
4. Harness Magica IV (I need the shield. I die lots)
5. Inner Light IV

I used to have Whip on there as skill 3, but I replaced the whip thing with Engulfing a while ago and it seems to do better at least.

GetAgrippa

You don't have a spammable?

Mr_Stach

Well there's the issue, that seems just terrible. I don't usually condone Alcast Builds, but here's a One Bar build that will help if you really can't use 2 bars.

https://eso-hub.com/en/builds/alcast/27466a99-33eb-4f21-a867-802b6a43d0f0/powerful-one-bar-magicka-dragonknight-build-for-eso-dps-pve

Tratrix

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Here's some current Logs from Live on Rockgrove. Top 20 DPS. DKs are smashing it

The only reason for those because DK can benefit from the 11 people in the raid and have class buffs that combo with the raid.
It has nothing near the idea that DK is somehow OP now

Mr_Stach

Then wouldn't there be more variety of classes? Even if the actual DPS is inflated because class buffs, 18 out 20 top dps are DKs. Which usually means they are overtuned, in my opinion.

CyberDiva

Is there perhaps a non-Alcast one-bar build somewhere that is actually good? I started shying away from Alcast builds after my not-fun-time with the Update 30 builds.

I do not really do well with that rotation stuff..... I get flustered and frustrated, and then forget which buttons I pressed last way too easily. Putting the skills in order of key presses, 1 to 5 to R, is best.



Also, I think Tratrix is right. You can't base DPS solely off of grouping, or PvP, or PvE. I've heard people use different builds for those trials than they do for regular PvP, etc., to try to maximize how well they can do. That just means that they're getting really good group buffs and the like. But then, that's the problem with skill balances... No one is ever gonna be 100% happy with something.

Until Zenimax finally takes the hint and separates the PvE skills and PvP skills completely, you are going to have a lot of problems with how good/bad classes are in either one. Guild Wars 2 learned that lesson almost at the beginning of their start and quickly split PvE and PvP skills. The benefit of doing so has paid off tenfold for them. They aren't the only game, either. I only wish ZOS would learn that lesson.

GetAgrippa

CyberDiva wrote: »

Is there perhaps a non-Alcast one-bar build somewhere that is actually good? I started shying away from Alcast builds after my not-fun-time with the Update 30 builds.

I do not really do well with that rotation stuff..... I get flustered and frustrated, and then forget which buttons I pressed last way too easily. Putting the skills in order of key presses, 1 to 5 to R, is best.

Honestly, if you want good DPS you have to keep your buffs up, keep dots up, and use a spammable in between. That means a rotation. A build isn't really going to change that much.

Mr_Stach

Sure. They are out there. But if you really get frustrated with rotations, maybe try out a Pet Sorc?

Anyways, One Bar mDK as requested.

https://arzyelbuilds.com/one-bar-magicka-dragonknight-solo-pve-build-elder-scrolls-online/

TechMaybeHic

This thread is kind of interesting. In PvP I just know fight against a DK, I can keep hammering them so long as they just keep.heals up and eventually just outlast everyone else in sustain if nothing else. Good ones probably don't have to. I still think the sustain nerf is a bit heavy handed

Yet here; it's interesting as the argument is mostly being made based on PvE with random people not reading and coming in saying "PVP gets us nerfed again!". Lol. PvPers don't even have to say anything in this case. I actually can't wait to returning to running my DK in hipster fashion of before/after it was cool.

Mr_Stach

Zos just pit the PvE against the PvP to avoid the backlash. I mean the backlash is still there, but people are blaming each other more it seems

tomofhyrule

I feel like statistics only tell one side of the story though...



So yes, by the metrics you're showing, it does seem that DK damage output is overtuned. But then this is the healing side, on the same boss, and there's a much better set of classes. Sort of. Does seem heavy on Sorcs and Wardens - there's 6 Sorcs and 7 Wardens in the top 20, along with 4 Templars, 2 NBs, and a Necro. Where's the first DK healer? Place 45.
So even just by the logic that DK damage is overtuned based on ESOlogs, you have to admit that DK healing is severely undertuned.

I'll say this definitely looks like DKs are doing too much damage and need a nerf. But it needs to be one that doesn't affect their (already poor) showing as supports. Yes, DKs are a bit tanky since the class was designed that way, but they're already being outshone in a lot of places even in tanking ability (see the unique buffs that Wardens and Necros have access to that other classes need to use sets for, or the fact that Wardens/Necros have dedicated class lines for support). I feel like the past year was when people were actually starting to accept DK tanks again, after a long period of 'Wardens/Necros or bust.' And yes, DK healers were always thought of as "DK's can't be healers!!11!1" but isn't the idea that all classes should be able to play all roles?

I think one of the other problems is that we got a lot of fire-themed sets in the last year of content. I know Encratis is a great set for tanks to wear that increases damage from fire sources. Your magDPS in a trial are running fire sticks and firey light attacks, but DKs also benefit from their spammables getting buffed since their class spammable is also fire. Even if there were a frost- or lightning-themed Encratis, it wouldn't get as much traction since fire staves have the single-target damage buff so people would prefer running fire staves.

DKs also seem to get hit with one major PvP bug harder than any other class - the one that only comes up in IC or BGs where some charge/pull/leap attacks are inexplicably set to 0 range, so they're permanently 'out of range.' I know whenever I go into IC, I have to have a second set of skills ready since that bug affects three of the skills on my main bar and leaves me totally helpless. I know this hits chains and leap a lot, which means that DK's - unless they're lucky - lose one of their main ultimates.
Yes, Sometimes it's not bugged and then everyone's all "ugh, DKs have leap so op!" But I'd love to know why some people don't get that bug because I can't even bother slotting it in IC since it never works for me.

Look, I'm not a super high level player. My main's a DK tank and I don't DPS, so even in a full solo arena setup I think I'm topping out around 30-40k. I'm much better holding a shield in the boss's face. Even this little bit of analysis is making my head hurt since I really don't care that much about the top 1% of the top 1% since I'm not going to be there.
I just don't want to see support roles nerfed into the ground because of overtuned damage output.

Remathilis

CyberDiva wrote: »

Is there perhaps a non-Alcast one-bar build somewhere that is actually good? I started shying away from Alcast builds after my not-fun-time with the Update 30 builds.

I do not really do well with that rotation stuff..... I get flustered and frustrated, and then forget which buttons I pressed last way too easily. Putting the skills in order of key presses, 1 to 5 to R, is best.

Well, ZoS had made a mythic that was supposed to help you with running viable one bar builds, but people here successfully got it nerfed to nothingness by using threats of werewolves and gimmicky 150k DPS builds. You're welcome.

Mr_Stach

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like statistics only tell one side of the story though...



So yes, by the metrics you're showing, it does seem that DK damage output is overtuned. But then this is the healing side, on the same boss, and there's a much better set of classes. Sort of. Does seem heavy on Sorcs and Wardens - there's 6 Sorcs and 7 Wardens in the top 20, along with 4 Templars, 2 NBs, and a Necro. Where's the first DK healer? Place 45.
So even just by the logic that DK damage is overtuned based on ESOlogs, you have to admit that DK healing is severely undertuned.

I don't disagree here, DK Healers need help as well. That's why blanket nerfs are bad design. Zos will always listen to the loudest person, which is usually someone yelling about being killed by X in PvP.

Arthtur

About DK dominating PvE Logs. I dont think its only because DK is strong on live. Like... Before DK got buffs he was only used as a support with Zen or as a tank. Now whats the point of bringing any other class?
NB? It only offers 6% Weapon Crit. It doesnt matter for magicka comp so whats the point?
Templar? Just bring healer for 10% SD and synergies.
Warden? Just bring healer for minor toughness.
Necro? Thanks to new sets u dont even need Necro for Major Vuln... so whats the point?
Sorc? Just bring 1 for 6% Spell Crit.
DK? "The best" this patch and no reason to bring any other class.

With changes with High Isle Stamsorc got soo much damage that he is better than DK on solo target. I didnt check much but the best parse i saw was 138k. Its enough to pick Sorc instead of DK. Well thats at least what i thing. Each class should have something to offer to the group, If everything is from sets then we have what we have.

Arthtur

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like statistics only tell one side of the story though...



So yes, by the metrics you're showing, it does seem that DK damage output is overtuned. But then this is the healing side, on the same boss, and there's a much better set of classes. Sort of. Does seem heavy on Sorcs and Wardens - there's 6 Sorcs and 7 Wardens in the top 20, along with 4 Templars, 2 NBs, and a Necro. Where's the first DK healer? Place 45.
So even just by the logic that DK damage is overtuned based on ESOlogs, you have to admit that DK healing is severely undertuned.

I'll say this definitely looks like DKs are doing too much damage and need a nerf. But it needs to be one that doesn't affect their (already poor) showing as supports. Yes, DKs are a bit tanky since the class was designed that way, but they're already being outshone in a lot of places even in tanking ability (see the unique buffs that Wardens and Necros have access to that other classes need to use sets for, or the fact that Wardens/Necros have dedicated class lines for support). I feel like the past year was when people were actually starting to accept DK tanks again, after a long period of 'Wardens/Necros or bust.' And yes, DK healers were always thought of as "DK's can't be healers!!11!1" but isn't the idea that all classes should be able to play all roles?

I think one of the other problems is that we got a lot of fire-themed sets in the last year of content. I know Encratis is a great set for tanks to wear that increases damage from fire sources. Your magDPS in a trial are running fire sticks and firey light attacks, but DKs also benefit from their spammables getting buffed since their class spammable is also fire. Even if there were a frost- or lightning-themed Encratis, it wouldn't get as much traction since fire staves have the single-target damage buff so people would prefer running fire staves.

DKs also seem to get hit with one major PvP bug harder than any other class - the one that only comes up in IC or BGs where some charge/pull/leap attacks are inexplicably set to 0 range, so they're permanently 'out of range.' I know whenever I go into IC, I have to have a second set of skills ready since that bug affects three of the skills on my main bar and leaves me totally helpless. I know this hits chains and leap a lot, which means that DK's - unless they're lucky - lose one of their main ultimates.
Yes, Sometimes it's not bugged and then everyone's all "ugh, DKs have leap so op!" But I'd love to know why some people don't get that bug because I can't even bother slotting it in IC since it never works for me.

Look, I'm not a super high level player. My main's a DK tank and I don't DPS, so even in a full solo arena setup I think I'm topping out around 30-40k. I'm much better holding a shield in the boss's face. Even this little bit of analysis is making my head hurt since I really don't care that much about the top 1% of the top 1% since I'm not going to be there.
I just don't want to see support roles nerfed into the ground because of overtuned damage output.

Thats a great point on sets. DK is the only class that is so easy to buff damage. Just like u said Encratis. Dk its the only class who gets soo much from it.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Arthtur

And in the end nothing changed. RIP DK's sustain.