Save The Oakensoul Ring

HackTheMinotaur

The concept of this ring is so good! It helps players that use only 1 skill bar in ESO, whether they prefer playing this way or need to based on some physical issue. This is a great concept for a Mythic. However, on Werewolf this is completely broken. Here's why:

1) Oakensoul Ring provides stat boosts that two bar builds would naturally have, but that 1 bar builds might miss out on. This includes bonus damage from a backbar glyph, bonus armor from an armor skill, critical chance, etc. This raises the potential of 1 bar builds closer to that of standard two bar builds.

2) Werewolf builds don't have the same needs. These bonuses are already built into Werewolf skills and passives. These include: 30% max stamina, 15% stamina recovery, 10% damage reduction (one WW morph), minor courage (one WW morph), 18% weapon/spell damage, major resolve (5280 armor). These are actually very similar stats to the Oakensoul Ring that werewolves already get just for being a werewolf! In short, Werewolves are already stacked! They don't need to be double stacked!

Solution: remove the bonus of Oakensoul Ring while under a transformation effect. That way werewolf builds could use this as a buff when their transformation drops, but not be incredibly OP while in form.

React

Great suggestion.

MashmalloMan

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Solution: remove the bonus of Oakensoul Ring while under a transformation effect. That way werewolf builds could use this as a buff when their transformation drops, but not be incredibly OP while in form.

That or something like 25-50% of the value while in form so they still have a reason to use it if they're smart about keeping up WW 100% of the time. I still think it deserves a bit of a nerf, it does way too much.

Including what you already wrote. WW is already designed around 1 bar with Savagery, Brutality, Maim, Breach, Empower and Defile built into the skills.

IncultaWolf

This is a great solution, I'd love to see it disabled for werewolves, but still be an option for one bar builds in pve

dinokstrunz

Werewolf is meh compared to what you can achieve with this ring on lets say Stamina Sorc, ppl are posting 130k+ parses one bar setups. Werewolf with this ring isn't the reason why this ring will probably get nerfed. Yes it is over stated but stop pretending Werewolf is going to be top tier in pvp with this ring, yes it will make Werewolf more competitive but the werewolf doesn't come close to what's existing in the current meta so far.

merpins

This would be your suggestion since you make all those one-bar builds, haha. I agree, if it didn't work on WW, then it might not get nerfed into the ground. I'd bet it'll still get nerfed a bit if they remove the WW synergy, but if they don't, then it is going to get nerfed into something no one will touch I guarantee it.

robpr

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Werewolf is meh compared to what you can achieve with this ring on lets say Stamina Sorc, ppl are posting 130k+ parses one bar setups. Werewolf with this ring isn't the reason why this ring will probably get nerfed. Yes it is over stated but stop pretending Werewolf is going to be top tier in pvp with this ring, yes it will make Werewolf more competitive but the werewolf doesn't come close to what's existing in the current meta so far.

That's only because Crystal Weapon seem to do more damage than it should. But yeah, you can easily surpass 80k with this on any class (Excluding Stamden or maybe Stamplar that pull highier)

kojou

I support the OP's suggestion. I think the ring is more reasonably powered if you make it not usable in werewolf form. If they nerf it to be reasonably powered in werewolf form then it will be garbage when not in werewolf.

I am curious to see how many players will use this ring though. if it will allow adequate damage, but with a much simpler rotation and setup. I mean, sure you can do a little more damage with a back bar and a more complicated rotation, but even I am tempted to use this on some builds to simplify the rotation on classes that managing a back bar is more of a pain (IMO Warden and Necromancer).

Yarcanine

Sure let's do that and while we are at it let's stop DKs from being able to equip Daedric Trickery, Kynmarchers or BSW they just get way too much out of these sets with no drawback. Necro shouldn't be able to use Dark Convergeance, Ritualist, or Harmony. Nightblade just benefits way too much from Caluurion and Stygians so let's ban that too. Templars get too much value out of mechanical acuity and Olorime so that's clearly over powered. Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to use Ironblood because they can just bypass the intended snare mechanic with their high mobility so that's banned too. Warden...uh let's just leave that one alone.

Silversmith

Werewolves are terrible in PvP and ok in PvE. Why do you hate Werewolves?

Tommy_The_Gun

I am using Gaze of Sithis on a build that does not block. I should be then prohibited to use a gear set that has a drawback, because I can mitigate that drawback.

^ This is the same logic.

WW just happens to be the spec in ESO that will synergise best with Oakensoul - simply because WW already has a drawback of having one bar. Besides - they wont be able to completely ignore the Oakensoul penalty, as outside of WW form they will somehow have to squeeze all the skills into 1 bar with no ulti. And WWs are very often outside of WW form.

To me, those threads simply look like an attempt to have a cake & eat a cake (I want to use this OP set on my build, but I don't want you to use it on yours !) I am pretty sure Oakensoul is gonna get nerfed after a week or two on PTS. I wonder if players will still freak out about WW by then.

Besides, that is not even what WW really needs. WW is lacking in 3 major aspects:
- Expensive healing ability.
- Lack of snare / stun CC removal skill.
- Lack of negative effect removal skill.

WW can have all the stats or buffs in the world, but as long as they will be lacking in those 3 things - you won't be seeing them often. Those are 3 things that hold WW back.

You wont make WW meta or even close to a good spec even if they will have Oakensoul equipped. Don't expect to hop on WW with Oakensoul next patch & enjoy being a god. This is not going to happen.

What you are only going to do is to *** off a lot of players instead.

Either everyone should be able to use a mythic or no one.

Ehh... that broken record again... I am having Elsweyr flashbacks... Do people really treat WW not even as a class or part of the game, but rather as an obstacle ? What about players who play as WW (yes, there are a few left) ? Are we an obstacle too ?

#StopWolfShaming

React

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am using Gaze of Sithis on a build that does not block. I should be then prohibited to use a gear set that has a drawback, because I can mitigate that drawback.

^ This is the same logic.

WW just happens to be the spec in ESO that will synergise best with Oakensoul - simply because WW already has a drawback of having one bar. Besides - they wont be able to completely ignore the Oakensoul penalty, as outside of WW form they will somehow have to squeeze all the skills into 1 bar with no ulti. And WWs are very often outside of WW form.

To me, those threads simply look like an attempt to have a cake & eat a cake (I want to use this OP set on my build, but I don't want you to use it on yours !) I am pretty sure Oakensoul is gonna get nerfed after a week or two on PTS. I wonder if players will still freak out about WW by then.

Besides, that is not even what WW really needs. WW is lacking in 3 major aspects:
- Expensive healing ability.
- Lack of snare / stun CC removal skill.
- Lack of negative effect removal skill.

WW can have all the stats or buffs in the world, but as long as they will be lacking in those 3 things - you won't be seeing them often. Those are 3 things that hold WW back.

You wont make WW meta or even close to a good spec even if they will have Oakensoul equipped. Don't expect to hop on WW with Oakensoul next patch & enjoy being a god. This is not going to happen.

What you are only going to do is to *** off a lot of players instead.

Either everyone should be able to use a mythic or no one.

Ehh... that broken record again... I am having Elsweyr flashbacks... Do people really treat WW not even as a class or part of the game, but rather as an obstacle ? What about players who play as WW (yes, there are a few left) ? Are we an obstacle too ?

#StopWolfShaming

"Outside of WW form" means nothing when you can stay in it indefinitely with no effort in any engagement. The optimal setup for oakensoul WW would be a stam sorc with Ball of lightning/twilight matriarch or clanfear/hurricane/camo hunter/bound armaments, giving you every tool you need to survive until you get to go into your ultimate. Can even swap camo hunter for vigor if you feel like the matriarch won't be enough - you only lose a very small amount of WD/SD and minor berserk.

Like I mentioned in the other thread, your gaze of sithis comparison is moot. The drawback of no block mitigation is not even somewhat comparable to that of having one bar. Also, "roly poly" builds are far better off using markyn, torc, or DDF on live.

1. 30% BASE move speed is more valuable than a snare removal with 0 additional movespeed. It offsets the majority of snares you'll encounter, especially when coupled with celerity or swift, reducing the need for an immunity.

2. Only templar and necro have a true purge, terrible arguing point to say that "WW lacks it".

3. The heal is the strongest burst heal on the game, it is on demand/spammable, and has multiple strong effects tied to it including passive brutality just for slotting. It is incredibly easy to stay alive using just this heal, especially given that the meta WW oakensoul setups have 40k HP. Sustain is a joke with the current CP and with the stats you get from oakensoul.

Halcyon_Kismet

Even if built specifically for transforming into a Werewolf, it is almost always a detriment to yourself to do so.

In PvE, Werewolf lags behind every single other dps by a huge margin. In the current patch, each class can do 20 - 30+k more compared to a werewolf. If played just about perfectly, they can just barely hit 100k. Just about every other class can hit 120 - 130k. On top of dealing less damage than every other class, you have to deal with an annoying feed mechanic which is constantly draining. Are you in a trial waiting on your raid lead to finish explaining the mechs to the new guys? Guess what, your starting that fight in your suboptimal human form. (And if your using the new mythic, you'd be stuck in human form w/ 1 bar.)
Werewolf tanks can be amusing and even fun, however they bring nothing new to the table and are forced to dedicate 5 pieces of armor to do the job. But even if it can do the job, the base classes can still do a superior job have significantly better pulling ability.

In PVP, Werewolves have been a joke for a quite a while. On more than one occasion I've heard Werewolves referred to as free AP. They are pretty much forced to build full tank to try and survive which in turn makes them do very little damage. If they do try and build damage, they're going to get slaughtered by experienced players. While just about every other class can build defensive on one bar and offensive on another, Werewolves do not have such a luxury. Oh, and just for fun, the fighters guild skills including the common Dawnbreaker ultimate do extra damage to you as well as poison skills (including the ever so popular Plaguebreak). You may be go on rampages in low mmr pvp, but once you start climbing that ladder you'll quickly be put in your place below their boot... This problem is even more evident when you factor in group play vs coordinated teams where a Werewolf doesn't really have much to contribute.

For those claiming this would be OP on a Werewolf, I challenge you to go play Werewolf in some serious content. Go try a vet trial or romp around in Cyrodiil to get a taste of what its really like.

This ring might allow for Werewolves to have a bit of a presence again, but at best its a band-aide which would allow Werewolves to be a bit more competitive than they currently are.

The only place I can see this ring being problematic is if they decided to buff Werewolves to address some of the many problems they currently have. However, Werewolves have been pretty neglected for quite some time (they even had a bug that lasted for 2 (3?) patches where they sometimes couldn't revive teammates!) so I doubt this will be of any concern.

Tommy_The_Gun

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

For those claiming this would be OP on a Werewolf, I challenge you to go play Werewolf in some serious content. Go try a vet trial or romp around in Cyrodiil to get a taste of what its really like.

Agreed on that. And... lets just say (no name & shaming) that once you see who is writing what about WW on forums - you just know that they did not played werewolf not even once in a more serious content. I mean... it is so obvious
They may have played in overland or public dungeons... but that is not the same lol

karekiz

Silversmith wrote: »

Werewolves are terrible in PvP and ok in PvE. Why do you hate Werewolves?

WW are bad in PvE. They need major buffs. Even with the *current* version of this ring WW would be a worse version of one bar templars. Though they would become slightly more playable. Not optimal. Just playable.

Remember META is MDPS anyway at this point. So if your WW can't bring ults - Can't bring good Cleave - Can't bring top ST DPS - Can't bring high execute DPS -

Can't bring any group support - Can't run Slayer sets - Can't run EC - Can't run Zens - I guess they can do ROARING/Alkosh though!

Thats the core issue with them in raids. They don't really do much that a class can't do themselves. At least this would bring them into line somewhere.

The best thing that can happen to this item is to just disable it in PvP.

belial5221_ESO

WWs get a boost on LA/HA damage with ring.Some WW skills lose damage compared to say malcath.So it's not a huge boost,and there's probably better way more OP nonWW/Vamp builds with the ring.We need to test more and see the real numbers playing it like someone said,that's why there's pts.

edit: Seems almost all skill damage is lower with the ring even in nonWW form,so it's a nice boost to nonskill damage compared to malcath,and about the little lower or same if using markyn.So sustain might be onlt benefit really for onebar players.Gonna try testing more and see.

Amottica

I agree that the WW already gets bonuses and is clearly a one-bar build by design. The question becomes, has Zenimax intended for this new mythic to work with the current WW design as everything is, or was this overlooked.

If it was overlooked then OP presents a good suggestion. Another idea would be to bring those WW passives in line with what seems appropriate when this mythic is used.

Either way, this thread does not seem to be about saving the mythic but nerfing WW or at least nerfing its use of this shiny new object.

Xinihp

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Werewolf is meh compared to what you can achieve with this ring on lets say Stamina Sorc, ppl are posting 130k+ parses one bar setups. Werewolf with this ring isn't the reason why this ring will probably get nerfed. Yes it is over stated but stop pretending Werewolf is going to be top tier in pvp with this ring, yes it will make Werewolf more competitive but the werewolf doesn't come close to what's existing in the current meta so far.

Especially since literally every build runs Flawless Dawnbreaker now and all stamina builds stack Fighters' Guild abilities for the passive weapon damage, a Werewolf in PVP is still mainly a walking AP pinata. Silver Bolt, Silver Bolt, Werewolf pounces, block, Dawnbreaker, stun, execute, dead.

I'm also dubious of taking things away from PVE just for the sake of hypothetical PVP scenarios. It kinda goes against their whole "we're only making small combat changes" philosophy.

I would much rather seem them cause it to have a reduced effect under Battle Spirit, and possibly a greater reduction for Werewolf form under Battle Spirit, but just taking it away outright (and before it even releases) would be a bit over the top.

PS: I enjoy your contents, HTM.

Vaoh

The idea of a one-bar mythic is okay but the amount of stats this thing gives is unbelievable. There are insane one-bar parses on PTS.
Low effort + high dps + tanky.

Just strange tbh.

Can’t even make a proper ice mage on the ice class but ZOS is investing in stuff like bash builds and one bar builds lol.

acw37162

PVE Werewolf w/Oakensoul is right around normal one bar builds w/ and w/o Oakensoul and less then also two bar set ups.

The only issues with Oakensoul is the stat density in PVP

At this point Oakensoul is feature of this Chapter and not the card game.

More people will buy the DLC for the Mythics then the game.

Xinihp

acw37162 wrote: »

More people will buy the DLC for the Mythics then the game.

Just keep in mind, 2-3 months after release they will be nerfed worse than Thrassian Stranglers.

(Which you STILL can't walk through a door with without losing all your stacks.)

Skoomah

I love all these werewolf haters profess their expertise in werewolf play when they themselves don't play it.

Skoomah

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

ModernSilver1

I really don't think completely disallowing the mythic on werewolves is the proper solution. That'd almost be like disallowing Pale Order on vampires due to Blood Frenzy back during Markarth (I feel like that might've even been suggested at one point). Instead, a nerf across the board or the effects getting cut by x% under the effects of Battle Spirit or Werewolf Transformation would be better. A lot of the complaints seem to be coming from a PvP perspective, so utilizing Battle Spirit might be the better option.

Mayrael

Skoomah wrote: »

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

Not too long ago, in IC, his preasure was so high that I defended myself for 80% of the fight. I was a NB vampire wearing the pariah set. When I popped cloak, my hp would drop faster than I could heal it with rapid regen and vigor combined. Yes it is true that there are many WWs who only serve as dummies to charge ultimate but a well built werewolf is a really big threat.

WW main advantage is that he is built for 1 bar, so he has many buffs built into his passives and his active skills have multiple effects which reduces his time needed to attack and defend. Less GCD = more dynamic combat, likewise not having to change bars makes it much easier to play WW. Oakensoul multiplies all werewolf benefits without costing him anything, because outside of werewolf form you only need ultimate and defensive skills to survive outside of werewolf form without much trouble, and then you can wreak havoc.

I don't think it's a problem in PvE, there's no reason why werewolf should be excluded, but in PvP where we have to take into account that every significantly dominant tactic will be abused we can't allow werewolf to use this ring.

taugrim

Skoomah wrote: »

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

The statement you made could also be said of other underpowered classes.

You're the guildmaster of one of the PVP guilds I'm in, and it's understandable that you're dissatisfied with the current state of WW, but throwing a monstrously stat dense mythic is not a good solution to the situation.

WW gives up nothing to use Oakensoul but gets a rather lengthy list of stats:
1. Adds 450 Weapon and Spell Damage
2. Adds 5280 Armor
3. Adds 450 Health Recovery
4. Adds 450 Magicka Recovery
5. Adds 450 Stamina Recovery
6. Adds 3737 Maximum Health
7. Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
8. Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
9. Adds 1973 Critical Chance

Those are nine really really really good stat bonuses.

Hack the Minotaur has provided 1-bar builds on his YouTube channel for years, because there is an audience that includes
a. people who aren't comfortable with bar swapping (and if anyone reading this is in that category and you play on PC, I highly recommend the addon Fancy Action Bars, it makes bar swapping so much more intuitive and usable), and / or
b. people who have mobility / accessibility challenges

For that audience, Oakensoul is a solid solution, because it addresses a problem they have (inability to use a 2nd bar).

But WWs as HTM pointed out already have buffs to make 1-bar play viable, if not meta today.

WW was OP when I started playing in 2020 then got hit with significant nerfs a year ago. Oakensoul would not only undo those nerfs but make WW faceroll OP. If you can't see it, you're not being objective.

JonnytheKing

the mythic is only part of what makes ww a problem, seeing you can do something very close to what i show in this video on the live sever. the problem with WW is uptime you should be able to have 100% up time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW2ohk7mKdU

IncultaWolf

Skoomah wrote: »

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

I've never came across another player that I feared, werewolf or not

Silversmith

Skoomah wrote: »

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

Werewolves aren't even an annoyance in pvp. They are free AP.

Silversmith

JonnytheKing wrote: »

the mythic is only part of what makes ww a problem, seeing you can do something very close to what i show in this video on the live sever. the problem with WW is uptime you should be able to have 100% up time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW2ohk7mKdU

Doesn't show build.
Doesn't show any video for pvp or pve content.
Just shows a stat screen while touching his face and says "fully buffed".

The video that is being shown is a werewolf with 35k hp and hits people for 3-4k and really doesn't do anything but exist.

There are topics on the forums asking to nerf MagDK, MagPlar, and some NB but never Werewolves.

Miracle19

Skoomah wrote: »

Can we be intellectually honest here and someone tell me the last time they came across a werewolf in pvp they actually feared? ...or are werewolves more of an annoyance?

You’ve fought against our premade with grim as WW… you know the class is already extremely strong, that ring makes it immortal completely without a healer…