What the community really wants

Path

In one word, "Community."

kargen27

Out of curiosity I did a search. Earliest mention of wanting a mini game I saw was April 2014. Were quite a few requests in 2014 and 2015. I didn't look at other years but I expect similar requests. Again forums don't show what the population wants as not a large enough sample size but it is not true that mini games have not been requested.
Probably been requested more often than new classes if looking at overall time of game. Just a guess though.

HonestLoverr

kargen27 wrote: »

"Since so many people were not 100% satisfied with either the writing of quests nor the rest of the content that got added in the past years, "

These forums make up a very tiny percentage of the player base and in no way provide an accurate indication of what the player base may or may not like. A handful of players here have posted they didn't like the story line. Not near enough to see a trend.

Calling feedback of players on the forums "in no way an accurate indication of what the player base may or may not like" is nothing but ignoring what those people have to say here. You will have a lot of players never ever telling anyone about their opinion and just keep quite while still liking or disliking things. Yet all of this is overthinking. You have to work with you get. To do so you have to value what you get. Good ideas, serious concers affected a lot of players, and constructive feedback on top is there! Trying to invalidate these things because of the media they post it on or based on the number of people expressing their concerns over it doesn't change what they think and (most importantly) it doesn't make it less valueable.

Look at this forums, its polls and all the posts with any topic about High Isle. Look at the player population charts. Look how age old the complaints are. And if those complaints are reasonable. Still not near enough to see a trend? What kind of trend are you looking for then? Its more than enough to see whats going on even from a players perspective.

RisenEclipse

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

This. Many players have been very vocal across various media about what we want, don't want and are willing to pay for.

No one asked for a card game.

Yes, a card game was asked. Tavern games were requested as a feature for a few years now. So your point is false...

HonestLoverr

Path wrote: »

In one word, "Community."

One word: "Priorities".

Arunei

Every time a thread like this comes up, there are people who agree and people who disagree. There are people who don't have any problems and like what we have, and there are people who experience various performance issues and are unhappy with the current or upcoming content.

And thus the OP of every one of these threads gets contradicted and it turns out that the community is not a single hivemind that all have the same opinions and desires.

Amottica

HonestLoverr wrote: »

So, what does the community really want now?

To sum it up: Server stability, bugs getting fixed (in time), balancing, new classes, new weapons, and truely organzied group play in an epic PvE and PvP adventure paired with different playstyle options and action that lets people shiver in their favorite game makes us want more and keeps your players playing and paying.

This is the TLDR for the OP. The one paragraph that sums everything up.

I think it is clear the server stability and performance of the game are the biggest issues. That is certainly the biggest issue impacting the biggest PvP arena, Cyrodiil, and limits the population there and greatly hinders gameplay. Balancing is pretty much always an issue in MMORPGs but with ESO it is more an issue of balancing damage, healing, and tanking builds.

As for playstyle options, play-as-you-want works fine. More casual builds work great in overland and many dungeons. PvP in Cyrodiil is open to a great many playstyles depending on how one wants to play there. Of course, the more challenging content comes down to pure performance and math as it should be.

Beyond that, we have truly organized group play in PvE and PvP. Groups of people form all the time. The better the leadership and players' skill and how regularly they play is important to determining how organized they are. This is the same with PvE and PvP. Group with unknowns or queue solo then do not be surprised with the group is very unorganized as it is asking for a random group.

kargen27

"Calling feedback of players on the forums "in no way an accurate indication of what the player base may or may not like" is nothing but ignoring what those people have to say here."

No it is admitting we are an extremely small and very vocal percentage of the population. Probably well under 1% of the total population.
I obviously do not ignore what others have to say as I am engaging in this conversation. I am saying relying on these forums as a way to see what is popular or not popular gives a very incomplete picture. It is good to voice opinions but don't pretend they somehow represent the majority or even a large minority of the player base.

"Look at the player population charts."

Curious, what charts are you looking at?

wenchmore420b14_ESO

kargen27 wrote: »

Out of curiosity I did a search. Earliest mention of wanting a mini game I saw was April 2014. Were quite a few requests in 2014 and 2015. I didn't look at other years but I expect similar requests. Again forums don't show what the population wants as not a large enough sample size but it is not true that mini games have not been requested.
Probably been requested more often than new classes if looking at overall time of game. Just a guess though.

Here is my post from another thread about the "community wanted this"...

Matt and Rich said this was a "much asked for feature".
As I have been on forums since 2013, I only remember it coming up just here and there.
So I searched mini games and here is the link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=mini+games

Yes, mini games have been requested, but, they were things like in-game games like "Snip & Tails", "Pin the Tail on the Khajiit",
Tavern games that bet with gold, Chess, Horse Races, Frog Races, etc.
A rehashed "Legends" was no where in the requests.
I myself have no problems with the new card game as I played MTG for years.
BUT! The fact the are implementing AwA and use "saving data space" as an excuse, then add this with it's achievements and leader boards and MORE data at the expense of all my alt's history is unacceptable.
And the fact that this card game is a "Major Feature" in a full price Chapter?
ZoS missed the bus totally this time...

LashanW

kargen27 wrote: »

ZoS sends out surveys asking about a variety of things in game and about what people would like to see going forward. I'm guessing those surveys led in big part to this decision.

I've been playing 4+ years now. Only seen 2 surveys so far (via e-mail). One for Greymoor release and one for Blackwood. They mainly asked about the chapter related stuff and how I felt about the new features they added. Also they asked about what I think about the game's state in general.

Most of these were asked with multiple choice answers (you had to tick or select).

They never asked about what I want to see going forward. So no, I don't think people asked for a card game via these surveys.

Northwold

.

kargen27 wrote: »

"Calling feedback of players on the forums "in no way an accurate indication of what the player base may or may not like" is nothing but ignoring what those people have to say here."

No it is admitting we are an extremely small and very vocal percentage of the population. Probably well under 1% of the total population.
I obviously do not ignore what others have to say as I am engaging in this conversation. I am saying relying on these forums as a way to see what is popular or not popular gives a very incomplete picture. It is good to voice opinions but don't pretend they somehow represent the majority or even a large minority of the player base.

"Look at the player population charts."

Curious, what charts are you looking at?

I think it's always important when looking at these forums to bear in mind how self-selecting the forums' membership actually is (you have to go through the hoops of asking to be invited, then getting invited, before you can post a word).

As such, they can't really provide a representative viewpoint and sometimes people seem to forget that. Relatively speaking, if you are not abnormally engaged with ESO already, you will not be on here.

I've often used this example but it does vividly illustrate the disconnect. When AWA was introduced, the forums here were flooded with complaints. On steam, one of the most common responses to complaints about AWA (of which there were very few indeed) was "why would you play the game with more than one character". It was almost the mirror image of the attitudes on display here. And on reddit the topic barely even featured.

HonestLoverr

To those of you who think everything is working: Go enter Cyrodiil. Join any fight there. Try to get your skills off. And then get back here and tell us again about your "working game". If all you do is playing solo overland PvE or crafting you will be fine most of the time. "Most". So it will still not be always 100% working. If you play less, like a lot less than others, and if you don't play even half of what the game has to offer without its major game aspects and so on, then you may have the chance to never ever notice anything. But the mentioned problems have been there regardless and still persist no matter what you do in the game or what you don't. The last weeks are a prime example. Dungeon finder problems still show up after Update 33 maintainance fiasco. Emails not working, Login not working. Certain login problems were there before this update too. Even this wasn't the first time, it happened many times within an 8 years time span.

Problems occur, bugs too, and that's ok. But not to the extent the WHOLE community (or to be more specific: the WHOLE community AFFECTED at THAT times, within the AFFECTED game content, trying to do MAJOR gameplay things, etc. etc. ) gets a close to unplayable gaming experience way too often for a product where people spent some really good money on. Full price chapters still getting sold without its main problems getting fixed (but yes, I know, its being worked on).

You still think you got a working product? No, no way. Not yet. Just because the things you do in the game might work fine for you when you play, doesn't make the game a working product in general. The broken major game aspects are there, you (maybe) just didn't step a foot into these huge broken parts yet? If so, good for you. Enjoy. But not for those who play this MMO as such. With the community in mind. Together with the family, friends, and others or against each other.


PS: I got a broken TV in my cellar and I'm selling it (full price of course). Doesn't show a screen anymore but still looking good. I can also paint a couple rainbows on it if you think its too black. But hey, you can still press buttons and such. So "a working product" am I right. Any takers? *sarcasm*

Kiralyn2000

duagloth wrote: »

we already have a slot machine for gambling, i can see why they added a card game. definilty dont like either of them

There's a bit of difference between lootboxes, and in-game card/dice/etc games played only for in-game purposes.

(heck, even ignoring Witcher 3, there's been "card games" and "casinos" in single-player RPGs and adventure games for decades, years before lootboxes & cash shops. FF8's Triple Triad, FF7's Golden Saucer, Dragon Quest's casinos, Fallout:NewVegas...)

Lootboxes have a lot more in common with dungeon & trial bosses, than they do with tavern mini-games. (Pay the cost - crowns/time for the run; crack open the random pile of loot - crate/boss/final chest/etc; repeat until the loot you want drops.)

Synaptic

HonestLoverr wrote: »

[snip]

Every time a thread like this pops up, that talks about performance or the abysmal state of PvP (and there have been quite a few) not only are they consistently ignored by ZOS but for some reason the people who don't engage in this type of content feel the need to come and disagree, argue or express their own personal views on the matter which isn't wrong by any means but it often doesn't have anything with the topic that's being discussed.

And not only that they make it sound like these issues are fabricated when in fact they're well documented.

Sure, the PvP Community in this game might be a minority compared to to those that prefer to sit in their homes and parse on raid dummies but the issues you've brought up here I've seen being discussed numerous times in guild chats, discord servers and Cyrodiil or IC zone chat, not to mention the PvP section of the forums.

Also, the reason the PvP community is a minority in the first place is due to the neglect PvP has seen over the years, which has lead to people leaving for greener pastures.

[edited to remove quote]

Wolfpaw

What players want, the few or many, doesn't really matter. What works from this genre past and current is the solution to growth, profit, and staying relevant.

1. Good performance for end game PvE & PvP.
2. New classes, skill lines, & races.
3. Rewards/loot worthy of players time.
4. Fix bugs.
5. Older game systems/travel/skills updated & balance

& of course the casual/new systems like overland, quests/story, housing, companions, events, mini games, etc...and that's the problem.

ESO has been getting years of casual/new mini systems content and it's getting stale.

DagenHawk

I have a simple philosophy

If I do not like a thing, I don't participate in a thing.

simple.

These threads always start out about how ZoS isn't listening to the community (whoever that is) then it takes a nose dive down the rabbit hole of IT'S ALL THE CASUALS FAULT!!!!!!! (whoever they are) and ends up closed because the usual suspects wants to practice their passive aggressive tendencies.

Nothing will ever change.

Weldo

Idk it's been years and BGs are still unplayable due to very bad design of : what stands for MMR, queue system, game modes.
At this point what I want is new devs or replace whoever is taking decisions because they don't seem to make any progress.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread in addition to discussion of disciplinary action.

• Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

HonestLoverr

@ZOS_Icy Greetings and thank you.

Could you do us the favor and bring this thread to the attention of any of the developer teams so they can have a short look at the points mentioned here, by chance? Would be much appreciated.

Mesite

No more balancing please. It's making life unpredictable. However, I would like a new class as I am still struggling to choose a main.

kargen27

Synaptic wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

[snip]

Every time a thread like this pops up, that talks about performance or the abysmal state of PvP (and there have been quite a few) not only are they consistently ignored by ZOS but for some reason the people who don't engage in this type of content feel the need to come and disagree, argue or express their own personal views on the matter which isn't wrong by any means but it often doesn't have anything with the topic that's being discussed.

And not only that they make it sound like these issues are fabricated when in fact they're well documented.

Sure, the PvP Community in this game might be a minority compared to to those that prefer to sit in their homes and parse on raid dummies but the issues you've brought up here I've seen being discussed numerous times in guild chats, discord servers and Cyrodiil or IC zone chat, not to mention the PvP section of the forums.

Also, the reason the PvP community is a minority in the first place is due to the neglect PvP has seen over the years, which has lead to people leaving for greener pastures.

[edited to remove quote]

A good number of these performance threads have an either/or theme to them. ZoS shouldn't do A until B is done. Then we point out A and B can and do happen at the same time and the argument digresses from there.
I was in Cyrodiil last night and the lag was abysmal even at the home base area. Out where actual fights were taking place it only got worse. I'm not going to blame it on new features though. Players were cheating, ZoS had to change how many calculations were made and have been trying to deal with performance since.
The posts about performance are not ignored. We aren't getting the answers we want but that does not mean we are being ignored. In fact ZoS has tried all kinds of things to improve performance. The results so far are again not what we want to see. If they don't completely give up maybe eventually they figure it out. Ether way I doubt new content is taking away from their efforts.

WiseSky

I really don't get the Performance issues, everything I do Works in ESO even with 150 Addons.

As for what I really want.

I want more mini games like the card game and not new classes.

EdmondDontes

It's true, there have been maybe a handful of requests for a card game and/or tavern game of some kind. But it's only a handful or so. And even the people making this request have generally agreed that the repeated promises of performance improvements should take priority over a card game.

Meanwhile, every day, all day, for over four years people have been screaming for performance improvements. Most of the cantankerous posts on this forum are about the need for performance improvements of one kind or another, and that's how it's been for years.

The OP hit the nail on the head with this one. An awesome for you!

EdmondDontes

kargen27 wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

This. Many players have been very vocal across various media about what we want, don't want and are willing to pay for.

No one asked for a card game.

Definitly saw tavern games being ask a few time
So yes there was people asking for this, like ot or not

There has been legions of posts & people asking for new classes, skill lines and functioning pvp systems, when will they finally get heard? Nah lets listen to the 6 people asking for tavern mini games because our MMO cannot handle massive new features that the masses want.

We got new classes. We got new skill lines. They are working to improve performance.

I've seen quite a few people over time ask for some type of mini game to be added. That aside the forums is not an accurate data base for what people want in the game. ZoS sends out surveys asking about a variety of things in game and about what people would like to see going forward. I'm guessing those surveys led in big part to this decision.

I probably won't participate beyond an early curiosity but if the card game is well designed I'm sure it will be popular.

They don't need to survey anyone. They need to follow through on their years of unfulfilled promises. "We're working on it" does not work as a statement after four years plus with no results to show for their efforts. After so many years we have to judge based solely upon results. Promises don't work anymore. It's years past time for results.

This is why "boo hoo gate" hit the community so hard. It showed an EXTREME disrespect for the community, and it came from one of the lead devs.

Jaimeh

Arunei wrote: »

Every time a thread like this comes up, there are people who agree and people who disagree. There are people who don't have any problems and like what we have, and there are people who experience various performance issues and are unhappy with the current or upcoming content.

And thus the OP of every one of these threads gets contradicted and it turns out that the community is not a single hivemind that all have the same opinions and desires.

There is the very real and undisputed fact that there are problems--if someone doesn't play group content, or competitively in PvP (where performance needs to be top notch and stable) and therefore doesn't encounter them, doesn't mean that the problems are not there. The lack of empathy in this thread is staggering. Yeah, let's let performance get even more worse because my playstyle is unaffected...

LashanW

WiseSky wrote: »

I really don't get the Performance issues, everything I do Works in ESO even with 150 Addons.

I did Sunspire hardmode last night.

Desync was on a whole new level. Half the mobs in trash fights didn't appear on my screen. One of the tanks was having the game freeze and stop responding during critical moments, several times. The other tank suddenly had his block functionality stop working completely, he had to relog to fix it, thankfully it was before we started the fight on Lokke. Couple of people disconnecting/crashing during fights. Raid lead was having nasty ping spikes. For me the ping was stable, at a nice 320ms.

When you go into the portal on last boss, I don't see the Eternal servant until ~5 seconds pass. When we come back up, I don't see any enemies for ~5 seconds. No dragon, no angry huge Khajits, no vigil statues. I can see all my teammates just fine tho. I thought this was just a personal issue but one of my portal buddies said this super desynced state lasts for ~10 seconds for them. I'm having it easy wow.
It's rather awkward if we come up when firestorm mechanic is about to happen (you are supposed to hide behind an inactive vigil statue to avoid getting barbequed, bit hard to do when I don't see any damn enemy on my screen). I just stay right next to raid to lead in this case, thankfully he's at the safe spot. Me and my buddies must be truly insane to be progressing for Godslayer under these conditions.

Everything is fine when I do my crafting tho, so ESO is fine and dandy.

alberichtano

I wish people would stop asking for new weapons and races. It aint gonna happen. Ever.

The new races simply because of tradition - the ten playable races are the core of the game, and has been so at least since Morrowind (the original game, not the chapter).

And new weapons would create such a huge impact on balance, graphics, modelling and arts (imagine having to create new resources for a weapon and the literally hundreds of motifs, styles and whatnot). There are more than enough issues with balancing the weapons that exist, so new ones just aren't realistic. It would take too much work and destabilize what stability there is in the games combat systems. And for very little gain, as new weapons can't be better than old ones, or everybody would use only those, and at the same time not be avarage either, because then what's the point. It is just not feasable from any perspective to put tons of comapany resources into such a huge endevour, when the gains are literally none.

alberichtano

RisenEclipse wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

This. Many players have been very vocal across various media about what we want, don't want and are willing to pay for.

No one asked for a card game.

Yes, a card game was asked. Tavern games were requested as a feature for a few years now. So your point is false...

False-ish. A tavern game was asked for - not a collectable card game. The two are not the same thing, indeed, they are polar opposites.

alberichtano

Wolfpaw wrote: »

What players want, the few or many, doesn't really matter. What works from this genre past and current is the solution to growth, profit, and staying relevant.

1. Good performance for end game PvE & PvP.
2. New classes, skill lines, & races.
3. Rewards/loot worthy of players time.
4. Fix bugs.
5. Older game systems/travel/skills updated & balance

& of course the casual/new systems like overland, quests/story, housing, companions, events, mini games, etc...and that's the problem.

ESO has been getting years of casual/new mini systems content and it's getting stale.

To paraphrase an old yankee president: Read my lips. No new races.

alberichtano

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

This. Many players have been very vocal across various media about what we want, don't want and are willing to pay for.

No one asked for a card game.

Definitly saw tavern games being ask a few time
So yes there was people asking for this, like ot or not

No. Tavern games, not a CCG. Two VERY different things.