Stampede change

WrathOfInnos

buttaface wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

(hail, wall, cloak)

What's wrong is deck-stacking by not acknowledging that hail and wall are ranged. Cloak could have been buffed to stampede levels long ago and should have been.

Stampede has a range of 22m, that is further than Wall's 18m. Sure it brings you to the enemy, but that is an advantage, not a limitation, since it means you're in position for short-range skills like trap, whip or jabs. If being close to a boss is dangerous, you do not have to stay, the ground AoE will persist even if you immediately back off. As long as you don't charge during a mechanic like Ra Kotu's spin this is not a problem.

The melee vs range argument would make a lot more sense for Blade Cloak. That is a skill that I could see being stronger than others because you need to get to melee distance before it has any effect (unlike Stampede), and you must stay close to whatever you'd like to hit for the entire duration (unlike Stampede). We can agree on one thing: buff cloak.

francesinhalover

buttaface wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that 2h backbar wasn't over performing in PvE.

Melee v ranged... "seriously argue?" Melee should always be higher than ranged backbar, and cloak should have been buffed, not stampede nerfed.

Lmao laughs in dw skills.
Stampede and carve were and still are bloody overpowered.
Vma two handed had like 4k-6k above vma bow

MECHA_STREISAND

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Stampede has a range of 22m, that is further than Wall's 18m. Sure it brings you to the enemy, but that is an advantage, not a limitation, since it means you're in position for short-range skills like trap, whip or jabs. If being close to a boss is dangerous, you do not have to stay, the ground AoE will persist even if you immediately back off. As long as you don't charge during a mechanic like Ra Kotu's spin this is not a problem.

The melee vs range argument would make a lot more sense for Blade Cloak. That is a skill that I could see being stronger than others because you need to get to melee distance before it has any effect (unlike Stampede), and you must stay close to whatever you'd like to hit for the entire duration (unlike Stampede). We can agree on one thing: buff cloak.

Well.. Cloak does 2 things: 1 - provides damage mitigation, 2 - does damage.

Stampede does 2 things: 1 - yeets you up to the target in an un-cancelable manner, 2 - does damage.

So yes, you have to hang around for Cloak to do its business, but you get some damage mitigation that you don't with Stampede. If you're unlucky enough to use Stampede the millisecond the enemy does some kind of AoE attack you're buggered, so it's a risk-reward thing.

Personally I think the skills are balanced in that respect. If you want cloak to do more damage, drop the mitigation or it's OP.

WrathOfInnos

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Stampede has a range of 22m, that is further than Wall's 18m. Sure it brings you to the enemy, but that is an advantage, not a limitation, since it means you're in position for short-range skills like trap, whip or jabs. If being close to a boss is dangerous, you do not have to stay, the ground AoE will persist even if you immediately back off. As long as you don't charge during a mechanic like Ra Kotu's spin this is not a problem.

The melee vs range argument would make a lot more sense for Blade Cloak. That is a skill that I could see being stronger than others because you need to get to melee distance before it has any effect (unlike Stampede), and you must stay close to whatever you'd like to hit for the entire duration (unlike Stampede). We can agree on one thing: buff cloak.

Well.. Cloak does 2 things: 1 - provides damage mitigation, 2 - does damage.

Stampede does 2 things: 1 - yeets you up to the target in an un-cancelable manner, 2 - does damage.

So yes, you have to hang around for Cloak to do its business, but you get some damage mitigation that you don't with Stampede. If you're unlucky enough to use Stampede the millisecond the enemy does some kind of AoE attack you're buggered, so it's a risk-reward thing.

Personally I think the skills are balanced in that respect. If you want cloak to do more damage, drop the mitigation or it's OP.

Yeah that's fair, one morph of cloak could lose the Major Evasion and become a good damage skill.

Sun7dance

kookster wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Curb stomping Stampeding the trash with guaranteed aoe crit is no more, I guess

I think it only guaranteed crit against the target you charged not everyone in the AOE.

That's not true.
All targets within range are critically hit by the initial damage!

Sun7dance

francesinhalover wrote: »

[...]

The skill is actually stronger now.
Check skinnycheeks

It doesn't have to be, because it depends on the rotation for each class.
If the 15sec dot means that you either have to overcast the skill or don't refresh it for a few seconds, then the skill is weaker in the end.

buttaface

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Stampede has a range of 22m, that is further than Wall's 18m. Sure it brings you to the enemy, but that is an advantage, not a limitation, since it means you're in position for short-range skills like trap, whip or jabs.

No, transparently trying to compare apples of a ranged aoe skill to oranges of a melee aoe skill is not reasonable based only on the range of the attack. The ranged aoe does damage without leaving max range, the melee skill does not. This represents a significant time and defense differential. No, having to move into melee range to do damage is not an advantage... in ESO or in any other similar game. So in good, well-balanced games, this is why melee gets innate dps advantages compared to ranged. This is why skills such as jabs/sweeps, other class skills and melee weapon skills are generally more powerful than ranged skills as they should be. This is part of MMO/computer game 101 and is not open to reasonable disagreement. In ESO, this is one reason trial groups have been overwhelmingly comprised of ranged magicka dps for a long time.

buttaface

francesinhalover wrote: »

Lmao laughs in dw skills.

Not an argument. Are you attempting to say that DW skills should be buffed? If so, why not simply state that? For years, DW and bow was THE ONLY competitive stam dps option. Now for the last year or so, 2H has been viable. Apparently some don't want that flexibility.

francesinhalover wrote: »

Stampede and carve were and still are bloody overpowered.
Vma two handed had like 4k-6k above vma bow

Not an argument. Attempts and fails, yet again, to compare ranged skills to melee. Apple, oranges.

Melee should be more powerful than ranged by X% in computer combat games due to defensive factors such as prevalence of PBAOE, time to close, time to reacquire new targets, positioning limitations on melee generally. Stampede and other melee skills should be X% more powerful than ranged.

In actual gameplay, VMA bow will generally and easily outdps VMA 2h due to the above factors.

buttaface

francesinhalover wrote: »

The skill is actually stronger now.
Check skinnycheeks

No, whatever spammable is being used is "stronger" in a backhand way in boss parses, not overnerfed stampede, and not in actual gameplay, especially not in anything other than long spongey boss fights.

Everest_Lionheart

buttaface wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

The skill is actually stronger now.
Check skinnycheeks

No, whatever spammable is being used is "stronger" in a backhand way in boss parses, not overnerfed stampede, and not in actual gameplay, especially not in anything other than long spongey boss fights.

I am actually going to go from undercasting stampede to overcasting it and I’m not sure how I feel about it at the moment. I was already running a 12 skill static rotation on my warden and just accepting the fact the my stampede will drop off for a second or two. I was also currently overcasting carve to keep the 3 bleed dots without having to swap bars as often. Now it looks like I can let those stacks sit for quite a long time and basically cast 3x carve to start the boss fight and another 1-2x going into exe on most dungeons. How all those moving pieces will fit together I haven’t got a clue but my feeling is I will end up hitting 2k more or 2k less either way.