Stampede change

Nullhawk3D

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I generally don't like nerfing one morph to make the other look better, but honestly stampede was (and maybe still is) too strong[...]

I agree that crit rush could use a buff. It should be the higher burst gap closer, while stampede remains the sustained damage area control morph. I think between these options rush should be the obvious choice for PVP, the fact that a ground DoT is preferred when facing other players indicates something is wrong.

Stampede on its face was making in roads for 2h to provide a better scenario for battle engagement (opposed to kiters, gank builds and those solely reliant on invisibility pots). Mixing in Carve damage mitigation allowed for damage increase/shield stacks and good rotation. This effectively makes stampede a "Loss Leader" and will move the community away from 2h builds once again. Shall we see Steel Tornado begin to be the primary again and dual wield builds only become an effective mainstay?

How about ZOS focuses, as another player has already mentioned on fixing gap closers.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I wish time was spent fixing gap closers, like stampede charge, before adjusting them. During prime time stampede rarely connects with enemy.

Well maybe then again this might just deter the playerbase a bit more from pointing out to ZOS that gap closers do not proc efficiently or "as intended." That's one way to handle an overwhelming concern...

Everest_Lionheart

I am more bothered by the change to carve. Finally I had a build where I could stack bleeds on stam and wear something other than Relequen on the body with Dro’zakar but now with those 3 bleeds gone now this set goes back in the coffer to collect dust.

macsmooth

I kind of get that with a DK times may match up better with their skills but how does this effect VMA 2h extra bleed to me it sounds like it makes it less up time with the extra costs

Sorry may not make much sense I’ve had a drink lol

Jazraena

Nah, every tick of Stampede refreshes the VMA DoT. That one's still fine.

macsmooth

Jazraena wrote: »

Nah, every tick of Stampede refreshes the VMA DoT. That one's still fine.

I just read that in the other thread, didn’t know it was a refresher never noticed it

neferpitou73

Why do they insist on changing things noone complains about?

Everest_Lionheart

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Why do they insist on changing things noone complains about?

People started posting mag builds running stampede and carve that were outperforming their stam counterparts. Hybridization is how we got here. I welcome hybridization personally but why don’t we just let the top tier players have their fun with their 120-130K builds and be done with it. It’s not like with DPS exploding that everyone is running around with Gryphon Heart, Dawn Bringer and Planes Breaker all of the sudden. In fact I would argue that there are more failed attempts than ever these days because groups try to nuke when they should be playing mechanics.

James-Wayne

Seriously nothing has changed in 7 years they buff they nerf they rebuff they nerf again, I wish they would make up their minds what it is because respec & crafting costs is bloody expensive!

The whole play how you want is a lie, you will need to use specific sets with specific skills... we should be able to pick one skill over another which provides different utility but the same output.

These constant nerfs to my damage which is already low is really disheartening...

NiteAdder

2 hander was great for solo players. Instead of trying to buff other skills they decided to make stampede useless. Same approach as always.

jaws343

prof_doom wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

But this nerf was hardly done for anything PVP related. People were using a gap closer as a top PVE dot in rotations, which is insane.

VaxtinTheWolf

Only thing I imagine for 15 seconds is being slightly more convenient if you wanted to use it's ground AOE along with a Crusher Enchant in PvE.

MudcrabAttack

It deals more damage per cast now. And so does carve. It’s not nerfed for some cases

This helps a class with a really strong spammable like DK or Templar, and it helps a class with a frequently used strong semi spammable like necro blast bones deal more dps, not less. It even lines up their rotation better for more efficiently reset skills

Jazraena

Only if they don't have other 10-second abilities this skill now no longer lines up with.

Ascarl

IMHO the duration change to 15s is too small to play a role. Either double the origial duration to 20s or do something different 15s does not relly fit into too many rotations.

MECHA_STREISAND

jaws343 wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

But this nerf was hardly done for anything PVP related. People were using a gap closer as a top PVE dot in rotations, which is insane.

Why is it insane? I use it as a gap closer in all scenarios that aren't standing still parsing. Many others do too.

As a stam DD things like vAS are hugely biased towards mag / ranged, so Stampede is the ultimate tool for a melee stam to still be capable. Same story for solo arenas (vVH especially) which are also biased towards ranged / mag.

The resource cost increase is completely unnecessary IMO, as it will now make using that skill as an effective gap-closer less.. effective. vVH is going to be a real problem now if you're 2H stam.

If ZoS' concerns were that nobody was using the other morph, then why not buff the other morph? As others have said, nobody is going to switch to Crit Rush as a result of this.

Tyrion87

Many sorcs were thrilled to have their hurricane duration buffed to 20 sec so it would line up better with 10 sec stampede. Well... not anymore

prof_doom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HTqjCwEfNU&ab_channel=SkinnyCheeks
Apparently Skinny Cheeks has done the math. Stampede still does more or less the same damage overall.
Carve is about the same too, as long as you don't lose stacks.

MECHA_STREISAND

I know this is a bit pedantic but they won't do the same damage, they'll do less. The difference is you'll be able to make up for that with extra spammables, so *might* be able to counter the loss.

I do appreciate the extra duration, so will try not to moan until I've tried it out.

MashmalloMan

I could care less about the damage nerfs because the extra duration accounts for that in terms of DPS and ability to spam more of your other skills for PVE. I think they made the right choice by nerfing it BACK to its orginal scaling of matching other AOE spammables.

It made no sense that it did more direct damage than the single target morph and more damage than other AOE spammables, so this isn't really a nerf, but a balancing to match other abilities. Especially since the over buff was only done last patch, this is basically a net gain. Something should still be done to Crit Rush though, it's still a little underwhelming in comparison for PVP.

My main point of contention is this:

1. VMA 2H does not refresh on the last 8-15s of the ground dot, but does on the first 8s. In previous patches, they stated it is intended to refresh on every single tick as a part of the function of the set, it refreshed every tick up to the 10s. Just because the skill has moved from 10s to 15s, should not nerf how the set paired with it functions... and why at 8s instead of the previous 10s? It screams that it was unintended bug. I understand that this means it lines up with the 15s at 8 + 7, but it seems so unnecessary and specific. In PVE, you're going to make sure the ground dot has 100% uptime anyway, so the overlap didn't help too much unless in scenario's where it did fall off which was forgiving. For PVP however, this completely ruins some of the added function of the new extended duration where you're not just doing a rotation. As it stands, I'm still going to want to cast it early now just because I'll be afraid they won't get the dot on them which is the more reliable portion of the set since they're not going to just stand in the aoe, they may however walk in and out of it.
2. That cost is pretty fricken high and I don't understand why it's there. Endless Hail, Blockade and Quick Cloak do not see an increase in cost just because they have longer durations beyond the standard 10s, why does Stampede get this nerf?

xylena_lazarow

From a PvP perspective, the ground AoE on Stampede was useful for hitting roll spammers with your enchant glyphs and Merciless bleed. I don't think I'll lose all that much switching to Crit Rush, which is already cheaper casting cost on live, being able to recklessly spam that sorta makes up for the missed hits. Could still use a buff.

I don't think the duration extension on Carve bleed is going to be useful in PvP, though I also didn't see anyone successfully stacking the bleed outside duels. I did try in Cyro, but found most players were either dead before I hit 3 stacks on them, or had established that they were tanky enough to stall forever. Master 2h still has its niche.

Still seems like nerfs nobody asked for and neither PvE nor PvP are happy to see, what a waste of development.

ADarklore

Problem is, so many PVE solo players used Carve AS their spammable, and now they're forced to find another spammable to add to their build to replace it.

jaws343

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

But this nerf was hardly done for anything PVP related. People were using a gap closer as a top PVE dot in rotations, which is insane.

Why is it insane? I use it as a gap closer in all scenarios that aren't standing still parsing. Many others do too.

As a stam DD things like vAS are hugely biased towards mag / ranged, so Stampede is the ultimate tool for a melee stam to still be capable. Same story for solo arenas (vVH especially) which are also biased towards ranged / mag.

The resource cost increase is completely unnecessary IMO, as it will now make using that skill as an effective gap-closer less.. effective. vVH is going to be a real problem now if you're 2H stam.

If ZoS' concerns were that nobody was using the other morph, then why not buff the other morph? As others have said, nobody is going to switch to Crit Rush as a result of this.

Using it as a gap closer is perfectly reasonable. The insane part is that people are using it as a DOT. The DOT from a gap closer was providing more DPS than normal DOTs. That is the insane part.

Necrotech_Master

jaws343 wrote: »

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

But this nerf was hardly done for anything PVP related. People were using a gap closer as a top PVE dot in rotations, which is insane.

Why is it insane? I use it as a gap closer in all scenarios that aren't standing still parsing. Many others do too.

As a stam DD things like vAS are hugely biased towards mag / ranged, so Stampede is the ultimate tool for a melee stam to still be capable. Same story for solo arenas (vVH especially) which are also biased towards ranged / mag.

The resource cost increase is completely unnecessary IMO, as it will now make using that skill as an effective gap-closer less.. effective. vVH is going to be a real problem now if you're 2H stam.

If ZoS' concerns were that nobody was using the other morph, then why not buff the other morph? As others have said, nobody is going to switch to Crit Rush as a result of this.

Using it as a gap closer is perfectly reasonable. The insane part is that people are using it as a DOT. The DOT from a gap closer was providing more DPS than normal DOTs. That is the insane part.

to be fair i think the NB teleport strike (magicka morph that applied the dot) could be used for a similar reason, granted it is only about 40% effective as stampede due to the hidden cast time and weaker dot

francesinhalover

DeathStalker wrote: »

I found this change to be disappointing. I agree with your suggestion to buff the other and leave this alone. Why do they always nerf things until they are useless?

Because two handed and its skills was out performing every other option?
Granted the skill is stronger on pve now. Its a pvp nerf it seems.

francesinhalover

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I generally don't like nerfing one morph to make the other look better, but honestly stampede was (and maybe still is) too strong. The damage was so far ahead of other weapon AoE DoTs (hail, wall, cloak) that every PVE build, stam or mag, would have been forced into 2H back bar in the new patch. Just for a quick comparison to Unstable Wall, Stampede had the same magnitude direct damage tick (but instant, not 10s delayed) as well as DoT ticks that were 55% stronger. Even if you assume Fire Wall vs Burning enemies the stampede ticks are 29% stronger, while also giving utility as a mobility skill. Stampede failed skill standardization. The hybrid skill changes are intended to give options and variety, but that all disappears when one skill is far superior to anything else.

I agree that crit rush could use a buff. It should be the higher burst gap closer, while stampede remains the sustained damage area control morph. I think between these options rush should be the obvious choice for PVP, the fact that a ground DoT is preferred when facing other players indicates something is wrong.

The skill is actually stronger now.
Check skinnycheeks

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

From a PvP perspective, the ground AoE on Stampede was useful for hitting roll spammers with your enchant glyphs and Merciless bleed. I don't think I'll lose all that much switching to Crit Rush, which is already cheaper casting cost on live, being able to recklessly spam that sorta makes up for the missed hits. Could still use a buff.

Crit rush has worse damage on hit now on live, and it's not AoE. I can probably live without AoE part, but less damage is critical failure of that morph. It's no even close to average spammable damage including the crit bonus on top. Increasing base damage up to old Stampede value (or close) could revive this skill.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

It's no even close to average spammable damage including the crit bonus on top.

I don't think gap closers should be used as spammables, but it could use some better secondary effects like SnB Shield Charge or Templar Toppling. The ability is pretty worthless without the Merciless bleed. But hey it's still better than NB Ambush with its pathetically idiotic cast time, right? Like I still can't believe they actually looked at this ability and decided that the "unlisted cast time" was totally cool and okay. It's so easy to abuse an opponent trying to use Ambush.

Necrotech_Master

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It's no even close to average spammable damage including the crit bonus on top.

I don't think gap closers should be used as spammables, but it could use some better secondary effects like SnB Shield Charge or Templar Toppling. The ability is pretty worthless without the Merciless bleed. But hey it's still better than NB Ambush with its pathetically idiotic cast time, right? Like I still can't believe they actually looked at this ability and decided that the "unlisted cast time" was totally cool and okay. It's so easy to abuse an opponent trying to use Ambush.

my experience with ambush (before they nerfed the asylum duel wield) was that it would fail to fire if there was even a hint of lag going on (likely because of the hidden cast time)

after the asylum duel wield nerf i started using 2h maelstrom with stampede as the gap closer which seems to work a little more frequently

buttaface

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

(hail, wall, cloak)

What's wrong is deck-stacking by not acknowledging that hail and wall are ranged. Cloak could have been buffed to stampede levels long ago and should have been.

buttaface

Tannus15 wrote: »

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that 2h backbar wasn't over performing in PvE.

Melee v ranged... "seriously argue?" Melee should always be higher than ranged backbar, and cloak should have been buffed, not stampede nerfed.