Stampede change

kookster

How about bring the other morph up rather than nerf the good one. The increased duration is completely useless in PVP as well, probably great for PVE. Please dont make this one of those situations where balancing is based off only PVE.

DeathStalker

I found this change to be disappointing. I agree with your suggestion to buff the other and leave this alone. Why do they always nerf things until they are useless?

Jazraena

In PvE you have the issue that everyone using Stampede has so far been using it in 10-second ability blocks, and now they have to shuffle around a sudden 15s DoT. It's irritating.

BrentBlemish

That really is the big point here, right? Stampede was a great skill, great damage, but IMO it's the risk for forcing you into melee at all times. There are several fights where stampede is more damaging to rush in when certain fights force the boss to have a red damage AoE around him that hinders really close melee range players.

The really issue is the other morph. It's just not used. ever. period. And nerfing stampede isnt going to change that in ANY CAPACITY. It's still the faaaaaar superior morph no matter how you slice it. Stampede should have been left alone and instead buffed the other morph to give a different form of utility that can offer something stampede cant.

prof_doom

The part that really annoys me is that they nuke 2H, and all they do to Bahsei is knock 3% off of it.
Would it really be that bad for stamina DPS to be decent?

kookster

Jazraena wrote: »

In PvE you have the issue that everyone using Stampede has so far been using it in 10-second ability blocks, and now they have to shuffle around a sudden 15s DoT. It's irritating.

So even the PVErs dont like it? When both PVE and PVPers both dont like a change. Cheers

BrentBlemish wrote: »

That really is the big point here, right? Stampede was a great skill, great damage, but IMO it's the risk for forcing you into melee at all times. There are several fights where stampede is more damaging to rush in when certain fights force the boss to have a red damage AoE around him that hinders really close melee range players.

The really issue is the other morph. It's just not used. ever. period. And nerfing stampede isnt going to change that in ANY CAPACITY. It's still the faaaaaar superior morph no matter how you slice it. Stampede should have been left alone and instead buffed the other morph to give a different form of utility that can offer something stampede cant.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Jazraena

kookster wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

In PvE you have the issue that everyone using Stampede has so far been using it in 10-second ability blocks, and now they have to shuffle around a sudden 15s DoT. It's irritating.

So even the PVErs dont like it? When both PVE and PVPers both dont like a change. Cheers

BrentBlemish wrote: »

That really is the big point here, right? Stampede was a great skill, great damage, but IMO it's the risk for forcing you into melee at all times. There are several fights where stampede is more damaging to rush in when certain fights force the boss to have a red damage AoE around him that hinders really close melee range players.

The really issue is the other morph. It's just not used. ever. period. And nerfing stampede isnt going to change that in ANY CAPACITY. It's still the faaaaaar superior morph no matter how you slice it. Stampede should have been left alone and instead buffed the other morph to give a different form of utility that can offer something stampede cant.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Oh, it's probably cool that way on DKs with their 14s abilities and such. Just not everyone else with the 10 second ones.

Buff/DoT durations should really all go for multiples of 10.

kookster

Jazraena wrote: »

Oh, it's probably cool that way on DKs with their 14s abilities and such. Just not everyone else with the 10 second ones.

Buff/DoT durations should really all go for multiples of 10.

As a non serious PVEr, did't ever think about that. Interesting.

I seriously think they should of left it as is, and just buffed the other morph. Though that being said I dont even know what they could do to make it useful. I feel it's too situational and even for that situation its meh. I feel like they need to redesign the other morph entirely.

Nullhawk3D

prof_doom wrote: »

The part that really annoys me is that they nuke 2H, and all they do to Bahsei is knock 3% off of it.
Would it really be that bad for stamina DPS to be decent?

Bahsei's nerf was a shock my Necro will be needing adjustment now, and not certain if magdumps are going to be worth it now... glad I bought the race change to move away from Breton. /s

As far as me getting back on topic for sub, both cleave and stampede adjustments (even with base damage/dot improvements - see spoiler), are going to severely impede the very recent dps and pvp formats many have been using. I am nearly ready to remove carve from pvp altogether, stam 2h pve characters for arenas may retain this as part of an altered or niché rotation, but just dissapointed altogether.

Perhaps new sets will be dropping or additional alternative combat changes (which were declared in Open showcase for 2022 changes to be minimal to non-existant)... either way I have a feeling 2h playstyle outside of pvp will be minimized again (year 2/3 all over again)?

Carve (morph):
This morph no longer increases in damage per stack, but instead increases in duration per stack. Each cast increases the maximum duration by 10 seconds, with a maximum duration of 30 seconds when at 3 stacks.
Increased the base damage per tick by approximately 66%. This will result in less overall DPS from the ability when at 3 stacks, but with significantly easier management of the effect. [/spolier]

prof_doom

BrentBlemish wrote: »

The really issue is the other morph. It's just not used. ever. period. And nerfing stampede isnt going to change that in ANY CAPACITY. It's still the faaaaaar superior morph no matter how you slice it. Stampede should have been left alone and instead buffed the other morph to give a different form of utility that can offer something stampede cant.

There's a thought. What could be done to make Critical Rush actually a valid choice?

Launch across the earth and smash an enemy, dealing 1438 Physical Damage. Deals up to 50% more damage based on the distance traveled. This attack is always a Critical Strike.

Obviously the idea is that Critical Rush is supposed to be the single target heavy hitter attack vs Stampede which is the AOE attack. Possibly as the opening strike in PVP, except that PVP also wants the AOE version. I wonder if perhaps it would be as simple as making Rush an AOE non-DOT attack. Stampede would keep it's DOT, maybe even boost it at cost of initial damage value.

PvP_Exploiter

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

robpr

Curb stomping Stampeding the trash with guaranteed aoe crit is no more, I guess

kookster

prof_doom wrote: »

BrentBlemish wrote: »

The really issue is the other morph. It's just not used. ever. period. And nerfing stampede isnt going to change that in ANY CAPACITY. It's still the faaaaaar superior morph no matter how you slice it. Stampede should have been left alone and instead buffed the other morph to give a different form of utility that can offer something stampede cant.

There's a thought. What could be done to make Critical Rush actually a valid choice?

Launch across the earth and smash an enemy, dealing 1438 Physical Damage. Deals up to 50% more damage based on the distance traveled. This attack is always a Critical Strike.

Obviously the idea is that Critical Rush is supposed to be the single target heavy hitter attack vs Stampede which is the AOE attack. Possibly as the opening strike in PVP, except that PVP also wants the AOE version. I wonder if perhaps it would be as simple as making Rush an AOE non-DOT attack. Stampede would keep it's DOT, maybe even boost it at cost of initial damage value.

That's a decent idea honestly.

Jazraena

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

kookster

robpr wrote: »

Curb stomping Stampeding the trash with guaranteed aoe crit is no more, I guess

I think it only guaranteed crit against the target you charged not everyone in the AOE.

prof_doom

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

kookster

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

What is wrong with using it as a spammable? Uppercut is trash and gets dodged 75% of the time. I personally don't use it as a spammable but I don't see a problem with people using it as one.

Jazraena

prof_doom wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

Which of course is why so many of these discussions end in someone pointing out that if ZOS could separate PVP and PVE balance, it would solve so many issues.

Hogwash. Nothing in this change necessitated the duration change even if we operate from the perspective of it acting as an overperforming PvP spammable. Just shifting the frontloaded damage into the DoT with the original 10s duration would have achieved that.

divnyi

I have a feeling devs secretly follow my toons setups to find out what they need to nerf next
Medium armor 100% crit stampede with dagon & essence thief is fun in PvP. Not strong in any dimension, but fun.

I agree on second morph being ded. Lets just compare: AoE vs single target, dot vs no dot, more damage on point blank hit vs more damage on hit with 12m+ range or smth like this, and not a huge ceiling.

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

Oh, it's probably cool that way on DKs with their 14s abilities and such. Just not everyone else with the 10 second ones.

Buff/DoT durations should really all go for multiples of 10.

Multiple DK skills used in PvE and PvP have 10 second durations; Ultimates, Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, are some that exceed that 10 sec duration also a handful of Direct Dmg.

The searing Heat Passive (in Spoiler below) actually increases DOT abilities - adjusting upkeep of DOTs changes playstyle of DKs; bringing everything to multiples of 10 will either result in yet another nerf to the DK class or an overwhelming Buff to the DK class.

To be honest I understand adjustment for keeping things fresh and yet to offset it so severely that it breaks gameplay is not truly ideal, besides... we already have enough skills/stats/attributes/META layouts that make most builds a duplication of others... why add to the cookie cutter style?

DK Skills - Ardent Flame - Rank II - Searing Heat - "Increases the damage over time of your Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 33% and the duration by 4 seconds."

Jazraena

Nullhawk3D wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Oh, it's probably cool that way on DKs with their 14s abilities and such. Just not everyone else with the 10 second ones.

Buff/DoT durations should really all go for multiples of 10.

Multiple DK skills used in PvE and PvP have 10 second durations; Ultimates, Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, are some that exceed that 10 sec duration also a handful of Direct Dmg.

The searing Heat Passive (in Spoiler below) actually increases DOT abilities - adjusting upkeep of DOTs changes playstyle of DKs; bringing everything to multiples of 10 will either result in yet another nerf to the DK class or an overwhelming Buff to the DK class.

To be honest I understand adjustment for keeping things fresh and yet to offset it so severely that it breaks gameplay is not truly ideal, besides... we already have enough skills/stats/attributes/META layouts that make most builds a duplication of others... why add to the cookie cutter style?

[/Spoiler] DK Skills - Ardent Flame - Rank II - Searing Heat - "Increases the damage over time of your Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 33% and the duration by 4 seconds."

Which is why I said durations should all be harmonized to multiples of 10. But irrespective of whether it works with other skills, changing that one skill to 15 just randomly throws it out of sync in the builds people are using right now for absolutely no reason. And unlike endgame build changes due to people trying to eke out another 1 to 2% damage, this makes things out of sync for everyone using it at the moment.

Nullhawk3D

Harmonizing to 10 seconds will severely alter the DK class and others; damage and percentage increases/decreases will require modification across the board to keep content as close to fair and equivalent as possible. Harmonization will destabalize classes (like DK) and adjust the nature of their playstyle difference let alone rotation.

PvP_Exploiter

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

By "break" do you mean make easier? You just cast it less now. Not a change I would've done, decrease initial damage would've been fine alone. But this changes basically nothing for PvE.

remosito

divnyi wrote: »

I have a feeling devs secretly follow my toons setups to find out what they need to nerf next

well...how else can they make combat be not samesame for years? Seeing they can't add new skill lines or classes. Nerfing stuff that gets actually used is the only trick they have left. Buffing *** above what is used just leads to even more power creep....

Jazraena

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Good change, there are players out there who use Stampede as a spammable in PvP and it was overperforming.

That's no reason to break PvE rotations, irrespective of whether that's actually true.

By "break" do you mean make easier? You just cast it less now. Not a change I would've done, decrease initial damage would've been fine alone. But this changes basically nothing for PvE.

Uhm, no. You want to minimize backbar switches, so having one skill last 10, one 15 and one 40 back there is just bizarre since you either sacrifice uptimes or switch more often because refreshing them all at once isn't happening. Or you refresh them early and sacrifice sustain.

Wolfpaw

I wish time was spent fixing gap closers, like stampede charge, before adjusting them. During prime time stampede rarely connects with enemy.

x99KungFuTacosx

R.I.P. to stampede. What was once a fun PvP spammable to chase kiters will now be too expensive and won't hit hard enough be useful. The changes to stampede and to the vampire skills from this latest patch notes are ridiculous and yet more examples of "who asked for this". These change to stampede make the skill practically useless in PvP (not that ZoS has shown an ounce of care about the PvP community). As other people have mentioned, now both morphs of the skill are trash for PvP and the stampede morph will make rotations uneccesarrily difficult for the few people who actually use stampede in PvE.

Again, who asked for this change? The devs here are totally out of touch with reality.

The changes to blood frenzy are similarly completely unnecessary. The balance of risk/reward for shimmering frenzy are part of what make the skill enjoyable to use. Nightblades (the primary benefactor of this vampire skill) did not need to be nerfed and already have a hard enough time in PvP.

I don't comment much on the forum but lately these changes have been pushing PvP in entirely the wrong direction. You guys seem to really want PvP to be a skill free heap of the same 3 classes all running the same skill sets. I get that you need to attract new players, but trust me when I say that today's PvP landscape is not attractive to newbies. Cyrodiil is now just an endless scene of tower kiting and dark convergence ball groups.

WrathOfInnos

I generally don't like nerfing one morph to make the other look better, but honestly stampede was (and maybe still is) too strong. The damage was so far ahead of other weapon AoE DoTs (hail, wall, cloak) that every PVE build, stam or mag, would have been forced into 2H back bar in the new patch. Just for a quick comparison to Unstable Wall, Stampede had the same magnitude direct damage tick (but instant, not 10s delayed) as well as DoT ticks that were 55% stronger. Even if you assume Fire Wall vs Burning enemies the stampede ticks are 29% stronger, while also giving utility as a mobility skill. Stampede failed skill standardization. The hybrid skill changes are intended to give options and variety, but that all disappears when one skill is far superior to anything else.

I agree that crit rush could use a buff. It should be the higher burst gap closer, while stampede remains the sustained damage area control morph. I think between these options rush should be the obvious choice for PVP, the fact that a ground DoT is preferred when facing other players indicates something is wrong.

Tannus15

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that 2h backbar wasn't over performing in PvE. Prior to this change stampede was doing twice as much dps as any other option. Carve was also very strong if you could maintain the stacks.

Likewise Bahsei was the strongest option for all builds. A slight damage nerf is warranted.

I agree with all 3 nerfs.

Jazraena

The duration change isn't a nerf. That's just a random change.

x99KungFuTacosx

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think between these options rush should be the obvious choice for PVP, the fact that a ground DoT is preferred when facing other players indicates something is wrong.

Stampede is prefered in PvP because it does AOE damage vs critical charge which does single target damage. The DoT from stampede is negligible when you factor in player resistances/mitigation - I think it hits for around 600 damage per second for me against players, which is nothing.