Coefficient impact to heals.

J18696

Only way I see cyro group healing getting somewhat balanced is not letting the same hots stack ontop of eachother

xylena_lazarow

p00tx wrote: »

that change needs to be made strictly within the confines of Cyrodil, and not be made to affect the rest of the game.

It's mostly mass HoT stacking that's the problem, PvP raids will run around with 12 RRs and 12 EVs on top of their 6 dedicated healers' outputs, the problem does extend to smaller groups and partially optimized groups. You'll see groups pushed off the flags by 10 randoms, then proceed to stall out the fight for 20 minutes until 30 more come and zerg them down.

McTaterskins

p00tx wrote: »

This suggestion doesn't work in this game because healers are never just pure healers (or at least they ideally shouldn't be, if they're doing their jobs properly) and sometimes dps need to be able to heal themselves during certain mechanics. You can't make changes like this without completely altering the entire game, from trial mechanics to combat mechanics.

If healing needs to be changed in PvP, and I'll concede that point to people who spend more time in PvP (I can't bring myself to do it these days), then that change needs to be made strictly within the confines of Cyrodil, and not be made to affect the rest of the game.

It's not just pvp it needs to be changed in. It is across the board.

It's not taking away the ability to heal. Healing and mitigation points with all the power creep and other game changes are just excessive at this stage.

You've basically just stated yourself that there are no pure healers. There wouldn't be anyway. Not in the current state of the game. It's powerful and everything stacks.

The reality is, if you spec for damage, your should accel at damage. If you spec for defense and mitigation, you should accel at that, if you spec for healing, you should accel at healing.

Currently, you can spec for damage and the difference in healing ability vs someone spec'd for it is marginal at best. You can make a "well rounded" build, and the different between that and a specific target spec is marginal.

That is not balanced.

On live, it's been at or just beyond the teetering point for the last couple of patches. This upcoming change will push it over the edge.

To put it in perspective:

I should not be able to heal myself or my groupmates for days and for the same or better amounts or efficiency on my stam dk, stamcro, stamden, or stamplar, as my teammate does on their Magplar.

If you're saying that I should. Then what exactly is the point of the other specifications and what direction are we to assume the game and it's overall combat system are heading?

xylena_lazarow

McTaterskins wrote: »

If you're saying that I should. Then what exactly is the point of the other specifications and what direction are we to assume the game and it's overall combat system are heading?

The problem with a rigid separation of trinity roles is that it would severely nerf solos and pugs, while massively buffing groups that deliberately stack a ton of dedicated healers, which is what's been going on for a while. If you can't jump into this game's PvP as a solo or a pug, then it has failed the whole "play how you like" thing they advertise, and there obviously aren't enough optimized groups to fill Cyro or even a BGs queue.

McTaterskins

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The problem with a rigid separation of trinity roles is that it would severely nerf solos and pugs, while massively buffing groups that deliberately stack a ton of dedicated healers, which is what's been going on for a while. If you can't jump into this game's PvP as a solo or a pug, then it has failed the whole "play how you like" thing they advertise, and there obviously aren't enough optimized groups to fill Cyro or even a BGs queue.

I definitely see your point. I don't believe anyone is asking for a "rigid" separation at all. But we shouldn't be able to have our cake and eat it as well, either.

xylena_lazarow

McTaterskins wrote: »

I definitely see your point. I don't believe anyone is asking for a "rigid" separation at all. But we shouldn't be able to have our cake and eat it as well, either.

I think they've done a pretty good job with offensive builds in this respect, there's nothing even close to the "tanks that do damage" of previous metas, but you can still run a build that can temporarily survive being focused and then come back and kill something. Defensive builds sacrifice nothing though, you can be a "tank" and still heal your entire raid.

divnyi

@xylena_lazarow IMO bigger problem will not be with the heal tanks, but with damage stacking healers that put some 40 points into HP. Before hybridization, they were using only their resource type best heals. After, they would at least have x1.5 that.

Those builds would have everything - toughness, healing, damage, sustain. No weak sides. Best premades would consist of players with the same approach, with a bit more team-oriented sets like kynmanchers / spc / PA and new damage boosting set.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

bigger problem will not be with the heal tanks, but with damage stacking healers that put some 40 points into HP

I think we're describing two sides of the same problem, which is that group support is way too "free" allowing you to invest everything in self-healing, sustain, mitigation, or damage. Incidental cross-healing gets stapled to a lot of abilities used for self-healing. Support sets like Magma and Olorime (lol) are being used on solo PvP builds. I have no idea how this would be addressed, maybe a better separation of skill morphs into group support and self-sustain? I think the mass heal stacking is still the biggest problem and hopefully something that can be isolated and then balanced.

p00tx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

that change needs to be made strictly within the confines of Cyrodil, and not be made to affect the rest of the game.

It's mostly mass HoT stacking that's the problem, PvP raids will run around with 12 RRs and 12 EVs on top of their 6 dedicated healers' outputs, the problem does extend to smaller groups and partially optimized groups. You'll see groups pushed off the flags by 10 randoms, then proceed to stall out the fight for 20 minutes until 30 more come and zerg them down.

This is actually a great explanation and makes a lot of sense. The zerging is what drove me away from pvp after maining it for 3 years. I don't know if it's possible to change the heal stacking dynamic in pvp without messing up pve healing, since we depend on stacked hots for trials, but if it can be done, I could get behind that.

McTaterskins

p00tx wrote: »

I don't know if it's possible to change the heal stacking dynamic in pvp without messing up pve healing, since we depend on stacked hots for trials, but if it can be done, I could get behind that.

How many RR's do you stack in trials?

HoT Alternatives:
Ritual/Morph
Strife/Morph
Grand Healing/Morphs
Budding Seeds
Vines/Trellis
Nature's Grasp/Morphs
Life Amid Death/Morphs
Spirit Mender/Morphs
Restoring Tether/Morphs
Ring of Preservation
Vigor/Morphs
Cinder Storm
Refreshing Path
Energy Orb


Special Consideration:
Lotus Flower/Morphs
Siphoning Strikes/Morphs
Surge/Morphs
Various Synergies
Various Ultimates
Various Proc sets
Hungry Scythe
Bitter Harvest/Morphs
Bond with Nature Passive
Blood Magic Passive
Unflinching Rage Passive
Glyphs
Poisons
Altar/Morphs


Is there any explanation as to why none of the above listed skills and factors aren't taken into consideration as alternatives if Radiating Regen weren't stackable? Other than having to swap one fire and forget button for another?

If it's simply "RR is just that much better/cheaper/etc." then it only reinforces the point that the skill needs to be looked at. Nvm the part where my GF's templar gets as good/better RR ticks on me with <5k spell dmg and minimal +healing than my 6k+wep dmg resolving vigor ticks. - In the case of that point, after the patch, why would I not just switch to RR and stack it with the other one in the group instead of blowing stam and a slot on Vigor? Or.... why not combine them? See the problem?

Not baiting or bashing @p00tx at all. The point is, his question is the common argument or 'go to' as to what/why the changes wouldn't or shouldn't take place.

The list above is quite long and full of completely useable alternatives. If a change to whether or not RR stacks were to somehow impact PvE, it is a player side problem at that point. Which, again, is an adjustment to one of the healers or support members slotting something else and moving on.


@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno - anyone? Any acknowledgement or "here's why this is intended"? Anything going on there? You've got content creators posting videos explaining the upcoming changes are a partial reason as to why they're moving on to other games (Elden Ring) or giving up.

Communication and response to feedback is going to be more and more critical this year.

McTaterskins

Posted this in the combat feedback thread as well.

Interesting - recent vid from one of my favorite content folks, @Isth3reno1else. Not sure if he's on forum. But yeah....


https://youtu.be/jSCEoNkKefs

p00tx

McTaterskins wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

I don't know if it's possible to change the heal stacking dynamic in pvp without messing up pve healing, since we depend on stacked hots for trials, but if it can be done, I could get behind that.

How many RR's do you stack in trials?

HoT Alternatives:
Ritual/Morph
Strife/Morph
Grand Healing/Morphs
Budding Seeds
Vines/Trellis
Nature's Grasp/Morphs
Life Amid Death/Morphs
Spirit Mender/Morphs
Restoring Tether/Morphs
Ring of Preservation
Vigor/Morphs
Cinder Storm
Refreshing Path
Energy Orb


Special Consideration:
Lotus Flower/Morphs
Siphoning Strikes/Morphs
Surge/Morphs
Various Synergies
Various Ultimates
Various Proc sets
Hungry Scythe
Bitter Harvest/Morphs
Bond with Nature Passive
Blood Magic Passive
Unflinching Rage Passive
Glyphs
Poisons
Altar/Morphs


Is there any explanation as to why none of the above listed skills and factors aren't taken into consideration as alternatives if Radiating Regen weren't stackable? Other than having to swap one fire and forget button for another?

If it's simply "RR is just that much better/cheaper/etc." then it only reinforces the point that the skill needs to be looked at. Nvm the part where my GF's templar gets as good/better RR ticks on me with <5k spell dmg and minimal +healing than my 6k+wep dmg resolving vigor ticks. - In the case of that point, after the patch, why would I not just switch to RR and stack it with the other one in the group instead of blowing stam and a slot on Vigor? Or.... why not combine them? See the problem?

Not baiting or bashing @p00tx at all. The point is, his question is the common argument or 'go to' as to what/why the changes wouldn't or shouldn't take place.

The list above is quite long and full of completely useable alternatives. If a change to whether or not RR stacks were to somehow impact PvE, it is a player side problem at that point. Which, again, is an adjustment to one of the healers or support members slotting something else and moving on.


@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno - anyone? Any acknowledgement or "here's why this is intended"? Anything going on there? You've got content creators posting videos explaining the upcoming changes are a partial reason as to why they're moving on to other games (Elden Ring) or giving up.

Communication and response to feedback is going to be more and more critical this year.

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

McTaterskins

p00tx wrote: »

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

Thanks @p00tx! I just wanted someone else to say it

p00tx

McTaterskins wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

Thanks @p00tx! I just wanted someone else to say it

I think you'll find most endgame folks can be counted on to help PvPers find solutions that benefit everyone. We just need to know those solutions aren't leaving us out of the consideration entirely, and I'm sure that goes both ways.

VarisVaris

p00tx wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

I don't know if it's possible to change the heal stacking dynamic in pvp without messing up pve healing, since we depend on stacked hots for trials, but if it can be done, I could get behind that.

How many RR's do you stack in trials?

HoT Alternatives:
Ritual/Morph
Strife/Morph
Grand Healing/Morphs
Budding Seeds
Vines/Trellis
Nature's Grasp/Morphs
Life Amid Death/Morphs
Spirit Mender/Morphs
Restoring Tether/Morphs
Ring of Preservation
Vigor/Morphs
Cinder Storm
Refreshing Path
Energy Orb


Special Consideration:
Lotus Flower/Morphs
Siphoning Strikes/Morphs
Surge/Morphs
Various Synergies
Various Ultimates
Various Proc sets
Hungry Scythe
Bitter Harvest/Morphs
Bond with Nature Passive
Blood Magic Passive
Unflinching Rage Passive
Glyphs
Poisons
Altar/Morphs


Is there any explanation as to why none of the above listed skills and factors aren't taken into consideration as alternatives if Radiating Regen weren't stackable? Other than having to swap one fire and forget button for another?

If it's simply "RR is just that much better/cheaper/etc." then it only reinforces the point that the skill needs to be looked at. Nvm the part where my GF's templar gets as good/better RR ticks on me with <5k spell dmg and minimal +healing than my 6k+wep dmg resolving vigor ticks. - In the case of that point, after the patch, why would I not just switch to RR and stack it with the other one in the group instead of blowing stam and a slot on Vigor? Or.... why not combine them? See the problem?

Not baiting or bashing @p00tx at all. The point is, his question is the common argument or 'go to' as to what/why the changes wouldn't or shouldn't take place.

The list above is quite long and full of completely useable alternatives. If a change to whether or not RR stacks were to somehow impact PvE, it is a player side problem at that point. Which, again, is an adjustment to one of the healers or support members slotting something else and moving on.


@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno - anyone? Any acknowledgement or "here's why this is intended"? Anything going on there? You've got content creators posting videos explaining the upcoming changes are a partial reason as to why they're moving on to other games (Elden Ring) or giving up.

Communication and response to feedback is going to be more and more critical this year.

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

Energy orb or illustrious healing aren't as big of an issue in PvP as those heals don't follow you (or the whole ballgroup) around, meaning that while people are kiting, which ballgroups are constantly doing, they will have to give up a lot more gcds than they have to do right now as they'd outrun their heals much faster.
Same things apply for almost every other heal in the game, they aren't close to being as gcd saving as Radiating Regen which is a good thing as it means ballgroups would be nerfed, not nerfed enough but it's an important step in the right direction

xylena_lazarow

p00tx wrote: »

In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

Before the reworks to Springs and Regen, PvP raids would stack Springs as their main healing, which was much less problematic than a HoT that passively sticks on them, as that renders a lot of the intended counterplay useless. If competitive PvE raids aren't relying on stacking RR and EV, then there's no excuse to leave it in this state in PvP.

McTaterskins

VarisVaris wrote: »

Energy orb or illustrious healing aren't as big of an issue in PvP as those heals don't follow you (or the whole ballgroup) around, meaning that while people are kiting, which ballgroups are constantly doing, they will have to give up a lot more gcds than they have to do right now as they'd outrun their heals much faster.
Same things apply for almost every other heal in the game, they aren't close to being as gcd saving as Radiating Regen which is a good thing as it means ballgroups would be nerfed, not nerfed enough but it's an important step in the right direction

p00tx wrote: »

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Before the reworks to Springs and Regen, PvP raids would stack Springs as their main healing, which was much less problematic than a HoT that passively sticks on them, as that renders a lot of the intended counterplay useless. If competitive PvE raids aren't relying on stacking RR and EV, then there's no excuse to leave it in this state in PvP.

Oh look.... getting to the bottom of it..

p00tx wrote: »

I think you'll find most endgame folks can be counted on to help PvPers find solutions that benefit everyone. We just need to know those solutions aren't leaving us out of the consideration entirely, and I'm sure that goes both ways.

I think we're all on the same page here.

@ZOS_Kevin , @ZOS_GinaBruno

Please, please, please review this thread. Especially this third page, as you can see a consensus is quite definitive. Please review the discussion, including the video links. Please.

Seraphayel

So… final PTS update and they didn’t touch healing. Ouch. Now we’re stuck for 3 months with this new unkillable (Stamina) meta. Fun times ahead.

McTaterskins

Seraphayel wrote: »

So… final PTS update and they didn’t touch healing. Ouch. Now we’re stuck for 3 months with this new unkillable (Stamina) meta. Fun times ahead.

I bought Elden Ring last night. Just going to reduce my play time and sit and hope something that makes sense happens in the coming updates.

Seraphayel

McTaterskins wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Energy orb or illustrious healing aren't as big of an issue in PvP as those heals don't follow you (or the whole ballgroup) around, meaning that while people are kiting, which ballgroups are constantly doing, they will have to give up a lot more gcds than they have to do right now as they'd outrun their heals much faster.
Same things apply for almost every other heal in the game, they aren't close to being as gcd saving as Radiating Regen which is a good thing as it means ballgroups would be nerfed, not nerfed enough but it's an important step in the right direction

p00tx wrote: »

To answer your question, there are never more than two healers per trial, and even in the newest, most experienced group, there will never be more than 2 stacks of any heal at any given time, unless a tank is using a heal for themselves, but it's not likely they'd be using one from a healer's toolkit. In an ideal healing duo, one or no healers would be using RR, so stacking that heal isn't really a concern for us. I'm more concerned with being able to stack hots like Energy orb and Illustrious Healing, as both of those being stacked are necessary during some dmg intensive mechanics in some trials.

If you maybe campaigned to have RR max at two stacks, with intense diminishing returns on heals for each additional stack added, it could work and it wouldn't interfere with PvE at any level.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Before the reworks to Springs and Regen, PvP raids would stack Springs as their main healing, which was much less problematic than a HoT that passively sticks on them, as that renders a lot of the intended counterplay useless. If competitive PvE raids aren't relying on stacking RR and EV, then there's no excuse to leave it in this state in PvP.

Oh look.... getting to the bottom of it..

p00tx wrote: »

I think you'll find most endgame folks can be counted on to help PvPers find solutions that benefit everyone. We just need to know those solutions aren't leaving us out of the consideration entirely, and I'm sure that goes both ways.

I think we're all on the same page here.

@ZOS_Kevin , @ZOS_GinaBruno

Please, please, please review this thread. Especially this third page, as you can see a consensus is quite definitive. Please review the discussion, including the video links. Please.

What concerns me the most is that they completely ignored this topic and any issues that the scaling changes will cause for healing.

They did not mention or tackle our concerns once. It has been completely ignored and they just went with it.

In U33 pure DPS builds are able to pump out higher heals than healing builds. How is this possible and how can something game breaking like this go live without questions or changes?

McTaterskins

Seraphayel wrote: »

What concerns me the most is that they completely ignored this topic and any issues that the scaling changes will cause for healing.

They did not mention or tackle our concerns once. It has been completely ignored and they just went with it.

In U33 pure DPS builds are able to pump out higher heals than healing builds. How is this possible and how can something game breaking like this go live without questions or changes?

Truth. Absolute truth.

SeaUnicorn

In Rockgrove tanks take 12-15k DOT every second. New content designed for the level of healing we have now. Unless its scaled back your proposal will make Planesbreaker unattainable to majority of players except may be top 0.1% of score push community, may be 100 people total.

McTaterskins

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

In Rockgrove tanks take 12-15k DOT every second. New content designed for the level of healing we have now. Unless its scaled back your proposal will make Planesbreaker unattainable to majority of players except may be top 0.1% of score push community, may be 100 people total.

That's part of the point.

Content items and mechanics become nonsensical, due to the migration and 'evolution' of the combat system to being mostly; nonsensical.

Adding that DOT, which we know everyone loves, is not the way to address the power creep of healing. (Plus sustain and mitigation for that matter - to whatever variable secondary/tertiary degree.) It's just a Band-Aid or quick half measure to push things out. "Ship it!"

xylena_lazarow

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

In Rockgrove tanks take 12-15k DOT every second. New content designed for the level of healing we have now. Unless its scaled back your proposal will make Planesbreaker unattainable to majority of players except may be top 0.1% of score push community, may be 100 people total.

So how many instances of Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor would an optimized Rockgrove group use? The biggest healing problem in PvP is these two abilities since they stick to a moving target, deleting most counterplay leading to unkillable groups and indefinite stalling. Stacking stationary HoTs like Illustrious Healing would not be nearly as much of a problem in PvP. Another possibility would be to buff certain PvP damage sources, like Coldfire siege, which should be powerful but in practice is pretty trivially out-healed by any PvP raid deliberately stacking HoTs.

p00tx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

In Rockgrove tanks take 12-15k DOT every second. New content designed for the level of healing we have now. Unless its scaled back your proposal will make Planesbreaker unattainable to majority of players except may be top 0.1% of score push community, may be 100 people total.

So how many instances of Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor would an optimized Rockgrove group use? The biggest healing problem in PvP is these two abilities since they stick to a moving target, deleting most counterplay leading to unkillable groups and indefinite stalling. Stacking stationary HoTs like Illustrious Healing would not be nearly as much of a problem in PvP. Another possibility would be to buff certain PvP damage sources, like Coldfire siege, which should be powerful but in practice is pretty trivially out-healed by any PvP raid deliberately stacking HoTs.

Like I said before, as long as we can have two people using radiating and at least 3 using vigor (weird comp, but it's potentially possible), we'll be fine in trial instances. Any reduction to healing strength needs to occur within Battle Spirit though, and not extend to the rest of the game. Zos may have gone overboard and missed the mark with the RG bleed dot, but it exists, so we need ways to counter it still.

McTaterskins

p00tx wrote: »

Like I said before, as long as we can have two people using radiating and at least 3 using vigor (weird comp, but it's potentially possible), we'll be fine in trial instances. Any reduction to healing strength needs to occur within Battle Spirit though, and not extend to the rest of the game. Zos may have gone overboard and missed the mark with the RG bleed dot, but it exists, so we need ways to counter it still.

Also would be fine. At least in regard to short term solutions.

Alchimiste1

Seraphayel wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@BalticBlues idk where you been last 3 month but surely not in PvP, if you think that this is stamina meta and not magplar/magdk.

Where have you been in the last years then? Stamina was always the dominating build in PvP. Besides MagSorc, which always performed very strong, Stamina was ruling.

That MagDK and MagPlar are so good right now is not due to Magicka being so good - it’s due to their buffs and toolkit. Where’s MagDen, where’s MagCro, where’s Magblade, if Magicka is as strong as you say?

That’s not the topic though. Fact is, with U33 we will have massive issues in PvP due to how much everyone can heal themselves and others while not losing one percent of damage potential. Nobody will die anymore because now you can easily resort to your opposing resource and get heals out. For Magicka builds this solely means using Vigor, but Stamina builds have plenty of new options here. It will be very problematic.

The only magicka class that isn't good rn is magden because for whatever reason the devs refuse to rework it.

Magcro is very good , its a bit on the boring side so you might not see many but its very strong
Magblade is the strongest its been in years, they can finally heal.
magplar and magdk everyone knows are strong.

In the recent 1-2 years magicka has seen huge buffs. With the combination of race against time, swift, celerity , and other cp passives magicka classes have more that enough stam sustain to run, roll, and block as much as stam classes. In the past those things were what made stamina stand out so much more. On top of that, every magicka class has better heals than stam classes. With the changes to armor bonuses, mag can combinations of medium/heavy/light armor, not lose any damage and have the same resistances that stam had.

Mag IS meta rn. I don't think thats deniable

BalticBlues

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Mag IS meta rn. I don't think thats deniable

On Live, about 90% of people play Stam in PvP - certainly not because Mag is meta...
Apart from MagSorcs and MagBombers, Stam already rules PvP for 3 years now.
Mag lost nearly everything what made it dominant 5 years ago:

Shields got WORTHLESS FOR LIGHT ARMOR in PvP when it received the resistance of Light Armor. If you are not a MagSorc to streak away, any StamPlayer will rip your shields apart and kill you at once if you are playing LightArmor.

LightArmor got WORTHLESS in Cyro when shields got worthless for Light Armor, because any siege weapon will kill you now at once.

Pets (except the healing Matriarch) got WORTHLESS in PvP when their damage was nerfed so much that you cannot kill any player anymore if you are using them.

Proc sets have been made ALMOST WORTHLESS for Mag, because these scale now with damage - but only Stam has enough damage to make them useful. Today only Stam can use Mag sets properly - what an irony.

The Coefficient impact to heals now are THE FINAL NAIL FOR ANY PvP BALANCE.
STAM now gets the BIGGEST DAMAGE and the BIGGEST HEALS.
There is NO RISK VS REWARD anymore. Playing Stam ONLY HAS REWARDS.

Update 33 will finally turn STAM INTO UNKILLABLE GOD MODE in PvP.
To kill a Stam player, you will need to be Stam player - to have enough damage.
If you are playing PvP competitively, you would be nuts not to play Stam.

VarisVaris

BalticBlues wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Mag IS meta rn. I don't think thats deniable

On Live, about 90% of people play Stam in PvP - certainly not because Mag is meta...
Apart from MagSorcs and MagBombers, Stam already rules PvP for 3 years now.
Mag lost nearly everything what made it dominant 5 years ago:

Shields got WORTHLESS FOR LIGHT ARMOR in PvP when it received the resistance of Light Armor. If you are not a MagSorc to streak away, any StamPlayer will rip your shields apart and kill you at once if you are playing LightArmor.

LightArmor got WORTHLESS in Cyro when shields got worthless for Light Armor, because any siege weapon will kill you now at once.

Pets (except the healing Matriarch) got WORTHLESS in PvP when their damage was nerfed so much that you cannot kill any player anymore if you are using them.

Proc sets have been made ALMOST WORTHLESS for Mag, because these scale now with damage - but only Stam has enough damage to make them useful. Today only Stam can use Mag sets properly - what an irony.

The Coefficient impact to heals now are THE FINAL NAIL FOR ANY PvP BALANCE.
STAM now gets the BIGGEST DAMAGE and the BIGGEST HEALS.
There is NO RISK VS REWARD anymore. Playing Stam ONLY HAS REWARDS.

Update 33 will finally turn STAM INTO UNKILLABLE GOD MODE in PvP.
To kill a Stam player, you will need to be Stam player - to have enough damage.
If you are playing PvP competitively, you would be nuts not to play Stam.

There is no stamspec that can even attempt to compete against magplar, magdk or magnecro, none of the things you wrote mean anything right now as neither of those specs run shields or are reliant on light armor.

Then you flat out lie when saying stam has superior healing, guess that's why every group is spamming radiating regen because the stam heals are so op.

Even damage wise magicka is superior or are you telling me there's something that can outdamage a magdk?

Magicka is meta in every single PvP bracket there is, from dueling to zerging there is no reason not to play magplar, magdk or magnecro.

McTaterskins

VarisVaris wrote: »

There is no stamspec that can even attempt to compete against magplar, magdk or magnecro, none of the things you wrote mean anything right now as neither of those specs run shields or are reliant on light armor.

Then you flat out lie when saying stam has superior healing, guess that's why every group is spamming radiating regen because the stam heals are so op.

Even damage wise magicka is superior or are you telling me there's something that can outdamage a magdk?

Magicka is meta in every single PvP bracket there is, from dueling to zerging there is no reason not to play magplar, magdk or magnecro.

This. I'm not sure previous poster is playing within the last 2-3 patches? (4-6 months?) Even then, the light armor damage shielding outside of sorc shield stacking isn't really all that common? At least not in my experience in the last year at the least.

I use light armor on a lot of characters for pvp. Mitigation alternatives are plentiful and well... just use rr and a burst heal and laugh.

That's not to say that stam isn't strong. It certainly is depending on your MMR or who you cross in Cyro etc. - But on the overall, mag or stam doesn't matter. Healing is nuts.