Coefficient impact to heals.

McTaterskins

Can we address this before the rest of the dynamic stat setup goes live?

I'm not sure if folks are actually on PTS or at least watching content posts from PTS etc., but the whole healing thing is getting out of hand and it stems from healing being on the same stat as damage.

Can you reduce the coefficient calculations that stats have on healing? Specifically weapon and spell damage? i.e. instead of 100 wd/sd = 100-300 range (over time/channeled), perhaps recalculate to the 70-210 range?

Something? Anything?

And no, this isn't a job for battle spirit. This continued power creep of healing is a problem in PvE as well. Beyond the hardest of hardmodes etc., there is little to no use for the trifecta or to spec anything beyond a dd and slot one heal/heal over time.

Seriously. It's really getting out of hand.

divnyi

Make heals about max pools and not about WD/SD. Or at least change coefficients, yes.

Seraphayel

This covers basically the issue I tried to discuss in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/597176/are-healing-skills-the-biggest-issue-with-the-new-scaling#latest (I didn’t put it into the PTS section, so my fault)

The stat scaling for dealing damage and healing should never be the same. It just doesn’t work. As soon as this update goes live nobody in PvP will die anymore because everybody has access to the biggest heals in game. This is further boosted by the ability to now use heals that are opposing to your main stat, e.g. Magicka can use Vigor and Stamina all the other heals - it will be way easier for Stamina builds though to make use of this. PvP will be a mess in U33.

Amottica

McTaterskins wrote: »

And no, this isn't a job for battle spirit. This continued power creep of healing is a problem in PvE as well. Beyond the hardest of hardmodes etc., there is little to no use for the trifecta or to spec anything beyond a dd and slot one heal/heal over time.

Considering healing should always be balanced to the most challenging content I do not see a problem considering this statement. The issue is that there is very little content outside of the more challenging trials,

I would recommend all veteran dungeons be recalled to the current level of power since there is clearly a constant power creep in this game (which affects both damage and healing done).

I also recommend a Hard Mode for each veteran dungeon that encompasses the entire dungeon, not just the last fight. Maybe keep it simple by just scaling the fights vs reworking them since there is a lot of dungeons. The benefit of this second aspect is it increases the playability of the dungeons which increases the value of the required work. Maybe add an achievement for this new HM.

Necrotech_Master

Amottica wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

And no, this isn't a job for battle spirit. This continued power creep of healing is a problem in PvE as well. Beyond the hardest of hardmodes etc., there is little to no use for the trifecta or to spec anything beyond a dd and slot one heal/heal over time.

Considering healing should always be balanced to the most challenging content I do not see a problem considering this statement. The issue is that there is very little content outside of the more challenging trials,

I would recommend all veteran dungeons be recalled to the current level of power since there is clearly a constant power creep in this game (which affects both damage and healing done).

I also recommend a Hard Mode for each veteran dungeon that encompasses the entire dungeon, not just the last fight. Maybe keep it simple by just scaling the fights vs reworking them since there is a lot of dungeons. The benefit of this second aspect is it increases the playability of the dungeons which increases the value of the required work. Maybe add an achievement for this new HM.

lol add a challenge banner at beginning of dungeon, and still allow activation of the normal boss HMs too

double down on the hard mode, but im sure some people would be interested in that

xylena_lazarow

Leave solo healing alone, nerf the way healing stacks, do it in a way that nerfs unkillable PvP comps running 6/12 dedicated healers, not in a way that messes with solo PvP or any level of PvE.

Wolfpaw

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Leave solo healing alone, nerf the way healing stacks, do it in a way that nerfs unkillable PvP comps running 6/12 dedicated healers, not in a way that messes with solo PvP or any level of PvE.

I don't know of any comps running 6healers, not to say they're not, but that would be too much of a damage loss. The "unkillable" comps usually run 3-4 dedicated support and the rest damage.

"Unkillable" group's damage roles provide almost as much, if not the same healing uptime boosted by s/w damage.

Solo or group heal scaling with w/s damage, by damage role players, is the issue needs addressed imo.

but my -opinion- comes from a place where I don't think one build should encompass tank, great heals, & great burst damage.

McTaterskins

I just want to point out, that throughout the already accumulated comments, and also mostly evident in the other threads that seem to pertain to the issue....

Even though the solution may be a debate, or the how/why may be a debate.... Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem.

Just. Saying.

ealdwin

Here's my thoughts from another thread on a similar topic regarding the higher healing that comes from stacking Spell/Weapon Damage over max Magicka/Stamina:

ealdwin wrote: »

The solution doesn't even have to be a hard split, just adjust the coefficient ratios for heals so that Resource has more weight than Damage.

For instance:
Resource : 10.5 Damage >>> 2.1 Resource : 5 Damage

$1A = 0.155047 Resource + 1.62712 Damage - 2.63527 >>> $1B = 0.3255987 Resource + 0.77481904761 Damage - 2.63527

Build 1: 6000 WD, 30000 Stam

$1A = 0.155047 (30000) + 1.62712 (6000) - 2.63527 = 14411.49473
$1B = 0.3255987 (30000) + 0.77481904761 (6000) - 2.63527 = 14414.2400157

Build 2: 3600 SD, 40000 Mag

$1A = 0.155047 (40000) + 1.62712 (3600) - 2.63527 = 12056.87673
$1B = 0.3255987 (40000) + 0.77481904761 (3600) - 2.63527 = 15810.6613014

At that point though a 20% nerf overall might be called for, since Build 2's healing output increases by 25%. Actually...

Build 1:

$1B = 0.26047896 (30000) + 0.61985523808 (6000) - 2.108216 = 11531.3920125

Build 2:

$1B = 0.26047896 (40000) + 0.61985523808 (3600) - 2.108216 = 12648.5290411

Again, numbers aren't perfect, but the idea is there. Build 2 would still have roughly the same healing output as current while the higher damage Build 1 would have less healing than Build 1, and less healing than they do currently.

Calculations for New Coefficients:
New_Resource_Coefficient = 0.8 * ((Old_Resource_Coefficient) * 2.1)
New_Damage_Coefficient = 0.8 * ((Old_Damage_Coefficient / 10.5) * 5)

neferpitou73

The main issue right now is the mitigation difference between damage and healing.

In order to damage your opponent, you have to bite your way through resistances and mitigation. So for instance my 20k sub is actually hitting for about ~5k when everything is said and done.

Compare that to, say my 14k BoR, which accouting for battle spirit hits for around 7k. Completely cancelling out any of the damage done by that sub.

There's a couple ways to deal with that of course, one of which is to nerf healing in general. Another is to just lower resistances across the board. A third (that I WOULD NOT recommend) is to make resistances affect healing.

BalticBlues

So Stamina will not only have the highest regular damage.
Stamina will not only have the highest proc set damage.
Stamina will not only have the best mobility in the game.
Stamina now will also get the highest healing in the game?

This is the final death blow to the tiny rest of balance in Elder Stamina Online PvP.

What is the point of playing Magicka in PvP?
What is the point of playing Magicka Healers in PvP?
What is the point of playing PvP when finally all players play Stamina?
What is the point of playing PvP when finally all players automatically become Stamina Healers?

divnyi

@BalticBlues idk where you been last 3 month but surely not in PvP, if you think that this is stamina meta and not magplar/magdk.

Urzigurumash

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The main issue right now is the mitigation difference between damage and healing.

In order to damage your opponent, you have to bite your way through resistances and mitigation. So for instance my 20k sub is actually hitting for about ~5k when everything is said and done.

Compare that to, say my 14k BoR, which accouting for battle spirit hits for around 7k. Completely cancelling out any of the damage done by that sub.

There's a couple ways to deal with that of course, one of which is to nerf healing in general. Another is to just lower resistances across the board. A third (that I WOULD NOT recommend) is to make resistances affect healing.

Great point. Problem with lowering Resistances is how much that would overpower Percentile Mitigations. Similarly that third solution might make Healing Taken suddenly much more powerful, depending on how it worked out.

Solariken

IMO self healing should remain as is, but party heals should get mitigated by phys/spell/crit resists to have better parity with damage.

That would likely completely solve the issue.

Seraphayel

divnyi wrote: »

@BalticBlues idk where you been last 3 month but surely not in PvP, if you think that this is stamina meta and not magplar/magdk.

Where have you been in the last years then? Stamina was always the dominating build in PvP. Besides MagSorc, which always performed very strong, Stamina was ruling.

That MagDK and MagPlar are so good right now is not due to Magicka being so good - it’s due to their buffs and toolkit. Where’s MagDen, where’s MagCro, where’s Magblade, if Magicka is as strong as you say?

That’s not the topic though. Fact is, with U33 we will have massive issues in PvP due to how much everyone can heal themselves and others while not losing one percent of damage potential. Nobody will die anymore because now you can easily resort to your opposing resource and get heals out. For Magicka builds this solely means using Vigor, but Stamina builds have plenty of new options here. It will be very problematic.

McTaterskins

Seraphayel wrote: »

That’s not the topic though. Fact is, with U33 we will have massive issues in PvP due to how much everyone can heal themselves and others while not losing one percent of damage potential. Nobody will die anymore because now you can easily resort to your opposing resource and get heals out. For Magicka builds this solely means using Vigor, but Stamina builds have plenty of new options here. It will be very problematic.

Yup! Thanks for steering it back on point!

Also, lets not forget Rally. (Just sayin')

McTaterskins

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Kevin, Gina, - Sorry for the tag, but this is a pretty popular topic of conversation over the last couple of patches. Has this feedback hit your radar yet?

divnyi

Seraphayel wrote: »

Where’s MagDen, where’s MagCro, where’s Magblade, if Magicka is as strong as you say?

Everyone but magden is in the meta, idk what you are talking about.
Magcros specced into DC/Harmony is so good that you even see them in BGs.

Nobody will die anymore because now you can easily resort to your opposing resource and get heals out. For Magicka builds this solely means using Vigor, but Stamina builds have plenty of new options here. It will be very problematic.

Do you even hear yourself? You use other resource, so weaker heals. In stamina you have Vigor and that's it. If you want more, you need to use magica counterparts that are 60% as effective. Best classes today also have strongest magica burst self-heals, and worst class (magden) doesn't have one.

Stamina was always the dominating build in PvP.

It wasn't in proc tank era, because HP was dominating resource.
It wasn't in dot era, because mages did sick dot stacks.
It isn't now, because healing is OP and damage was reduced in battle spirit, resulting in lower bursts.

It was never about stamina vs magica anyway.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

Do you even hear yourself? You use other resource, so weaker heals.

Not in the upcoming U33, it's going to be so much FUN fighting stamcros with full-strength Spirit Guardian and mdks with Vigor and whatever else. I can't even think of any way hybridization significantly buffs PvP damage, but full-strength healing from both pools is an absolutely massive defensive buff to numerous specs in an already tanky meta.

Thing is, if they nerf individual healing, the unkillable optimized group meta remains unchanged, while things get worse for solos and randoms, which means more toxicity and more players quitting PvP. And nobody better say "the game was meant to be played in groups" when the meta is so hostile to pugs, they get wrecked so bad regardless of numbers, casual players need a way in or the population will never recover.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Not in the upcoming U33

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Seraphayel

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Not in the upcoming U33

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Seems like you missed the Update 33 combat memo:

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable. Similar to what we’ve worked on with passives and item sets, we want to ensure you feel empowered to pick an ability or weapon based on the gameplay mechanics and expression they offer you first and foremost, with fewer restrictions. This means any ability that used to scale exclusively with Spell Damage and Max Magicka will now dynamically scale with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina, and vice versa.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Uh like, the huge defining change of the entire update, making all abilities scale with your highest stats?

divnyi

@Seraphayel @xylena_lazarow

Oh ye, I see it now.
This is really really weird change tbh. I don't like it, even tho I do hybrids.
Hybridization is already possible in PvP, especially that ppl run with almost all points in HP and wd/sd on gear is now hybrid.

It's just a flavour fail to be able to hit harder with magica and cast better with stamina.

Gameplay-wise, yeah, we never needed hybrid healing.
Heals should scale with same stat and same weapon stat, and ideally scale more with stam/mag than wd/sd, so the harder you stack HP the weaker your healing go.

McTaterskins

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Uh like, the huge defining change of the entire update, making all abilities scale with your highest stats?

@divnyi - Yeah it's a pretty big update coming with the dynamic scaling changes. Some pretty crazy examples already being uploaded from PTS:

Including, but not limited to... Stam DK's with 26k+ coag crits while 2k+ ticks per target are pumping from burning embers. (There's already PTS video)

3-4k vines ticks with 6-7k bursts (all non crit) on the trellis end .. on stam wardens.

23k+ crits on RF on stam necros.

3-4k++ spirit guardian ticks on stam cros.

24k+ HtD crits on Stamplars.

4k ticks on radiating regen on assorted Stam builds. (DKs/Plars primarily)

This stuff is just what I've seen on PTS vids on the current round.

Seraphayel

McTaterskins wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Uh like, the huge defining change of the entire update, making all abilities scale with your highest stats?

@divnyi - Yeah it's a pretty big update coming with the dynamic scaling changes. Some pretty crazy examples already being uploaded from PTS:

Including, but not limited to... Stam DK's with 26k+ coag crits while 2k+ ticks per target are pumping from burning embers. (There's already PTS video)

3-4k vines ticks with 6-7k bursts (all non crit) on the trellis end .. on stam wardens.

23k+ crits on RF on stam necros.

3-4k++ spirit guardian ticks on stam cros.

24k+ HtD crits on Stamplars.

4k ticks on radiating regen on assorted Stam builds. (DKs/Plars primarily)

This stuff is just what I've seen on PTS vids on the current round.

This is so so so concerning. Builds already we’re so tanky in the last years, but this change… it will be horrible.

We need more and easier access to Defile and it should definitely be 30% again, maybe even 50% for Major Defile but only on a 2-3s duration.

xylena_lazarow

Seraphayel wrote: »

This is so so so concerning. Builds already we’re so tanky in the last years, but this change… it will be horrible. We need more and easier access to Defile and it should definitely be 30% again, maybe even 50% for Major Defile but only on a 2-3s duration.

PvP healing needs to be massively reworked at every level... scaling, stacking, resource management, buffs and debuffs... evenly matched fights need to be able to end. As it is now on live, if you want to end a fight, you're forced to either zerg (outnumber the enemy to death) or deliberately seek out opponents you know are weaker than you are (toxic gameplay), and this problem only gets worse in U33.

VarisVaris

Seraphayel wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Which change specifically are you referring to?

Uh like, the huge defining change of the entire update, making all abilities scale with your highest stats?

@divnyi - Yeah it's a pretty big update coming with the dynamic scaling changes. Some pretty crazy examples already being uploaded from PTS:

Including, but not limited to... Stam DK's with 26k+ coag crits while 2k+ ticks per target are pumping from burning embers. (There's already PTS video)

3-4k vines ticks with 6-7k bursts (all non crit) on the trellis end .. on stam wardens.

23k+ crits on RF on stam necros.

3-4k++ spirit guardian ticks on stam cros.

24k+ HtD crits on Stamplars.

4k ticks on radiating regen on assorted Stam builds. (DKs/Plars primarily)

This stuff is just what I've seen on PTS vids on the current round.

This is so so so concerning. Builds already we’re so tanky in the last years, but this change… it will be horrible.

We need more and easier access to Defile and it should definitely be 30% again, maybe even 50% for Major Defile but only on a 2-3s duration.

We had powerful defile in the past and it was never balanced it just fuelled the tank meta further.
In such a meta where any fight becomes a simple numbers comparison of dps vs possible healing the best option to stay alive is building even more tanky and then win the attrition fight against any glass Canon because they'll drop before you.

Additionally with powerful defiles outnumbered fights become a pure nightmare as the damage one is required to deal in order to put someone's life on a ticking clock is reduced significantly thus making options like running 2-3 defensive sets viable as the defile will take care of your offensive presence.


Another problem is that sorcs are completely unharmed by defiles while being rendered useless as you can't get any kills on targets without the defile while no one can kill you as the best way to build is high survivability with only minimal damage investment high enough to overcome the enemies healing.


Balancing overtuned healing with defiles will always result in a horrible meta as it either only affects low healing specs which aren't the issue or they are so powerful that the remove any reason to build for damage.

In either case it doesn't change anything about the actual issues which are the extreme cases like
Crosshealing in magicka groups
Overtuned skills like intensive mender, living darkness,...
Resolving those issues helps the game and balance much more than yet another sledgehammer change.

Wolfpaw

Many players, and ZOS (?), don't want a greater emphasis on trinity combat & the result will continue to have the same outcome no matter the changes. All-in-one builds that eventually will make meta and everyone will use.

Silversmith

It's probably too hard to make a new stat for healing power and rebalance sets. Just make heals affected by resistances and CP reductions like damage. These stalemate battles that never end are super boring and people just give up and run away from each other and seek out players that aren't in the tank meta.

Urzigurumash

Lemme see some technical reasons why Mag is predicted to be irrelevant next patch. Like LA has Crit Chance and Pen, but only Crit Chance buffs heals, opposed to MA's Crit Damage and Damage, both of which buff heals. What else?

divnyi

@Urzigurumash medium armor has no weaknesses, only upsides. Light armor has both lowest armor rating and makes you vulnerable to physical damage. It means you are in burst threat range even in 30k HP build.

All in all, mages rarely use light in PvP. You roll heavy as a mage. Exceptions are rare.