Coefficient impact to heals.

Amottica

McTaterskins wrote: »

I just want to point out, that throughout the already accumulated comments, and also mostly evident in the other threads that seem to pertain to the issue....

Even though the solution may be a debate, or the how/why may be a debate.... Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem.

Just. Saying.

But the problem is not with healing. One needs to look for the actual problem and deal with that or face really messing things up.

I noted what the problem is and a very workable solution that also brings add challenge for those that are up for it. Ofc, people going for lesser challenging content will still face the same issue but that is due to their choice.

Seraphayel

Amottica wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

I just want to point out, that throughout the already accumulated comments, and also mostly evident in the other threads that seem to pertain to the issue....

Even though the solution may be a debate, or the how/why may be a debate.... Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem.

Just. Saying.

But the problem is not with healing. One needs to look for the actual problem and deal with that or face really messing things up.

I noted what the problem is and a very workable solution that also brings add challenge for those that are up for it. Ofc, people going for lesser challenging content will still face the same issue but that is due to their choice.

The problem is absolutely with healing. Healing is not the only problem though, but it’s one of the main concerns. It was a big issue until U33, but with U33 it will be the gigantic elephant in a tiny room.

Brrrofski

If anything needs looking at, it's on an individual level.

We don't need a blanket nerf on heals. Some classes have horrid healing still.

Seraphayel

Brrrofski wrote: »

If anything needs looking at, it's on an individual level.

We don't need a blanket nerf on heals. Some classes have horrid healing still.

Which class exactly? Due to weapon choice each and every single class has more than enough options for healing and with U33 it will just be way more options anyway (especially for Stamina builds).

Brrrofski

Seraphayel wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

If anything needs looking at, it's on an individual level.

We don't need a blanket nerf on heals. Some classes have horrid healing still.

Which class exactly? Due to weapon choice each and every single class has more than enough options for healing and with U33 it will just be way more options anyway (especially for Stamina builds).

Magden and magsorc will still suffer.

Sustaining vigor on a mag build will be hard.

I already use bear haunch on my mag sorc, and no way could I sustain vigor with it.

What options do I have? Matriarch is double bar and unreliable unless I micromanage it's health. So you're pigeonholed in resto which is fine I guess. Then you have rapid regen and healing ward. Both of which go to someone else half the time, even when running solo. And neither are great primary heals.

Plus, some Stam builds don't have great healing, unless they slot like 4 skills just to heal.

I'm not saying that all classes need to have equal healing at all.

But, if heals as a whole are nerfed, some classes will be hit a lot harder than others.

Take stamsorc. Probably the worst Stam class for healing. Reduce heals overall, and they'll be pigeonholed into using a resto with radiating to accompany vigor and rally. So an extra skill and a forced weapon type.

Compare that to a Stam DK, that has cauterise, as well as major mending. Ok, that's two skills(one of which gives minor brutality, and the other major savagery) but it doesn't force a weapon type on you. Oh, and it'll have coag, which is the best burst heal in the game.

Or stamden, which next patch will be able to use vines very effectively. Which procs major mending and gives sustain.

Compare a mag DK to a mag sorc. Next patch it has coag, cauterise and burning. embers as a hot.

Mag sorc has surge as a hot I guess, which is decent, but requires you to be offensive, a stupid double slot skill that dies in aoe dumps and when you summon it, glitches out so the first time you try to heal with it just does the summon animation again, or a one second cast time skill that can be interrupted.

Which, again, is fine. Sorc has other defences, like an extra shield and mobility.

But, a blanket nerf on heals will impact the classes who don't have OP healing MORE than classes that do.

Stacking heals needs looking at for sure. Like groups who have 6 radiating regens on everyone in the group at once.

And if solo healing needs looking at, it's on an individual level.

For reference, I pvp on pretty much every class fairly equally apart from Necro, which I do play but not a whole lot.

So I have no favourites or agenda. I'm just saying how I find healing across all classes.

Einstein_

i totally agree with the OP. Healing and expecially HoTs get out of hand.

i played a temp on PTS with RR/vigor/ritual/living dark.....it was ez to sustain while having 7-8kSD.
you can imagin how much healing over time you have....

i think a strait up healing nerf isnt the right way to go since that would just force everyone into running more hots, and wouldnt really solve the proplem.

1. either make vigor/RR not Hyprid, so you can still have hyprid class heals and other restro heals.

2. change the scaling for heals, which means mak it less effeicnt to just put everything into SD/WD. Change the famous 10.5 ratio for heals only. Healing proc sets/shields already scale with max resources do the same thing for heals.
(change the coeficents and make it scale with 3-5 instead of a 10.5 ratio)

that would also make healers more viable and you cant just put a heal on a DD and have stronger heals.

That would change the "i put everything into WD/SD meta" we have atm in PvP

xylena_lazarow

While stalling out 1v1s is a problem, it's nowhere near the magnitude of how badly even partially optimized heal stacking completely ruins group PvP at any scale, from BGs and resource nodes to keeps and scroll temples. The unkillable group problem needs to be addressed first, most of the "suggestions" ITT would screw solos/randoms/pugs but do absolutely nothing about the unkillable groups stacking dedicated healers, which would continue filling group PvP with toxic play patterns of faction stacking, pug stomping, and stalemates.

Last time I tried a hardcore smallscale fight was about a month ago, 3v3 each with 2 stam damage and 1 healer/tank, we suffered no deaths at all, they had their one damage player die twice over the 15 minutes and immediately get necro rezzed each time, we all walked away from each other after it became apparent that though we had a slight upper hand, the enemy group could and would endlessly stall us out, especially with them using resource tower LoS defensively. This is the typical outcome of any competitive group engagement, from smallscale to raid.

And then one of my teammates says "that's why we prefer to fight pugs" ...toxic as that may be, trying to fight other competitive groups gets pretty miserable and toxic itself, so what do you even do? Most of my gameplay is spent sitting on a back keep or resource alone waiting for the few minutes I get to fight something vaguely competitive...

Kidgangster101

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

While stalling out 1v1s is a problem, it's nowhere near the magnitude of how badly even partially optimized heal stacking completely ruins group PvP at any scale, from BGs and resource nodes to keeps and scroll temples. The unkillable group problem needs to be addressed first, most of the "suggestions" ITT would screw solos/randoms/pugs but do absolutely nothing about the unkillable groups stacking dedicated healers, which would continue filling group PvP with toxic play patterns of faction stacking, pug stomping, and stalemates.

Last time I tried a hardcore smallscale fight was about a month ago, 3v3 each with 2 stam damage and 1 healer/tank, we suffered no deaths at all, they had their one damage player die twice over the 15 minutes and immediately get necro rezzed each time, we all walked away from each other after it became apparent that though we had a slight upper hand, the enemy group could and would endlessly stall us out, especially with them using resource tower LoS defensively. This is the typical outcome of any competitive group engagement, from smallscale to raid.

And then one of my teammates says "that's why we prefer to fight pugs" ...toxic as that may be, trying to fight other competitive groups gets pretty miserable and toxic itself, so what do you even do? Most of my gameplay is spent sitting on a back keep or resource alone waiting for the few minutes I get to fight something vaguely competitive...

What they need to do is something I've said for a very long time but no one believed me. They need to approach it from multiple angles tbh.

Make it so heals don't go off spell/wd, or max stats. They need to make it so healing has its own stat just like Regan's. Have it start off at base 800 or something and make it so you can raise it.

Then they need to increase the cost of all moves in the game so that if you don't want Regan on your toon outside of just food then yes you will eventually run out of resources and be done thus helping to eliminate the never ending fighting.

With these changes you force people to choose maybe 2 out of the 3. So you don't have someone that can do everything. It will also make a reason to have Regen builds because you can try to "outlast" your enemies. Or do you want to still spec for crazy high damage and overwhelm your opponent? Or you have to decide to be a full healer where you need the help of your allies because you don't have damage to live on your own.

I say these changes because they are needed for pve as well. For too long Regan hasn't been needed because resource gain is far to much. With this change they have to find a balance maybe creating burst windows where you go ham and down phases where you need to slow down to catch up on resources spent. It also makes healers needed in content again because I used to run just about everything with me as a tank and 3 DPS with self heals and the game was too easy......... And let's be real damage has been WAY OUT OF CONTROL in PvE for far too long.

Jman100582

Couple of ideas to tackle healing:

>Buff battle spirit and its healing debuff

>buff sources of defile/make defile more accessible

>nerf cross healing (ie if another player heals you, you only get 30-50% of the heal instead of 100%)/remove cross healing

Using battle spirit would be the best way to fix it, it's not like trials need healing nerfed. I doubt healers will be slotting echoing vigor or rally, which are really the only universal stam heals. Adding some sort of defile cp slottable would also be nice, something that applies a defile for x amount of seconds, the amount of seconds increasing in proportion to your highest offensive stats. Something similar to the Hope Infusion cp

exeeter702

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

While stalling out 1v1s is a problem, it's nowhere near the magnitude of how badly even partially optimized heal stacking completely ruins group PvP at any scale, from BGs and resource nodes to keeps and scroll temples. The unkillable group problem needs to be addressed first, most of the "suggestions" ITT would screw solos/randoms/pugs but do absolutely nothing about the unkillable groups stacking dedicated healers, which would continue filling group PvP with toxic play patterns of faction stacking, pug stomping, and stalemates.

Last time I tried a hardcore smallscale fight was about a month ago, 3v3 each with 2 stam damage and 1 healer/tank, we suffered no deaths at all, they had their one damage player die twice over the 15 minutes and immediately get necro rezzed each time, we all walked away from each other after it became apparent that though we had a slight upper hand, the enemy group could and would endlessly stall us out, especially with them using resource tower LoS defensively. This is the typical outcome of any competitive group engagement, from smallscale to raid.

And then one of my teammates says "that's why we prefer to fight pugs" ...toxic as that may be, trying to fight other competitive groups gets pretty miserable and toxic itself, so what do you even do? Most of my gameplay is spent sitting on a back keep or resource alone waiting for the few minutes I get to fight something vaguely competitive...

Congratulations, you now see precicley why eso pvp at "high level" is a meme. Most like to wax poetic about deep strategic cyrodil pvp (lol) and dare suggest what they think the right course of action is in terms of balancing the problem factors. They do this while utterly failing to realize trying to use cyrodil group dynamics as ANY form of reference for what should and shouldnt be nerfed is a fools errand, fill stop. And when you actually come into contact with a pvp scenario that actually carries weight in terms of players ACTUALLY needed to outplay other players where each member of the engagement shoulders equal burden of performance, and both groups are knowledgeable with effective builds, you get stalemates with little back and forth. These types of situations are what truly put pvp under the necessary degrees of scrutiny. And these types of situations are where many players completely lack insight or experience. Their entire mental framework is based around ball groups clashing in the front of a keep wall and want to talk about what should or shouldnt be nerfed in pvp.

exeeter702

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

While stalling out 1v1s is a problem, it's nowhere near the magnitude of how badly even partially optimized heal stacking completely ruins group PvP at any scale, from BGs and resource nodes to keeps and scroll temples. The unkillable group problem needs to be addressed first, most of the "suggestions" ITT would screw solos/randoms/pugs but do absolutely nothing about the unkillable groups stacking dedicated healers, which would continue filling group PvP with toxic play patterns of faction stacking, pug stomping, and stalemates.

Last time I tried a hardcore smallscale fight was about a month ago, 3v3 each with 2 stam damage and 1 healer/tank, we suffered no deaths at all, they had their one damage player die twice over the 15 minutes and immediately get necro rezzed each time, we all walked away from each other after it became apparent that though we had a slight upper hand, the enemy group could and would endlessly stall us out, especially with them using resource tower LoS defensively. This is the typical outcome of any competitive group engagement, from smallscale to raid.

And then one of my teammates says "that's why we prefer to fight pugs" ...toxic as that may be, trying to fight other competitive groups gets pretty miserable and toxic itself, so what do you even do? Most of my gameplay is spent sitting on a back keep or resource alone waiting for the few minutes I get to fight something vaguely competitive...

What they need to do is something I've said for a very long time but no one believed me. They need to approach it from multiple angles tbh.

Make it so heals don't go off spell/wd, or max stats. They need to make it so healing has its own stat just like Regan's. Have it start off at base 800 or something and make it so you can raise it.

Then they need to increase the cost of all moves in the game so that if you don't want Regan on your toon outside of just food then yes you will eventually run out of resources and be done thus helping to eliminate the never ending fighting.

With these changes you force people to choose maybe 2 out of the 3. So you don't have someone that can do everything. It will also make a reason to have Regen builds because you can try to "outlast" your enemies. Or do you want to still spec for crazy high damage and overwhelm your opponent? Or you have to decide to be a full healer where you need the help of your allies because you don't have damage to live on your own.

I say these changes because they are needed for pve as well. For too long Regan hasn't been needed because resource gain is far to much. With this change they have to find a balance maybe creating burst windows where you go ham and down phases where you need to slow down to catch up on resources spent. It also makes healers needed in content again because I used to run just about everything with me as a tank and 3 DPS with self heals and the game was too easy......... And let's be real damage has been WAY OUT OF CONTROL in PvE for far too long.

While I disagree with idea of divorcing healing from the same set of stats that govern damage.

I do agree that one of the answers that would potentially solve two issues: one of power creep and injecting more meaningful decision making in pvp is to look at how resource pools are maintained. The issues ZOS has found themselves in is that generally speaking it's not fun not being able to use abilities frequently and many casual players that dont bother really focusing their build appropriately are going to have an even more miserable time in pvp. Using resource pools as the exclusive governance of ability use (as opposed to individual CDs as in other games) was am explicit design choice, but the more your game introduces methods to manage and control said resource, the more pointless, said management becomes and pvp fights in open world literally boil down to head count = win condition.

Jman100582

exeeter702 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

While stalling out 1v1s is a problem, it's nowhere near the magnitude of how badly even partially optimized heal stacking completely ruins group PvP at any scale, from BGs and resource nodes to keeps and scroll temples. The unkillable group problem needs to be addressed first, most of the "suggestions" ITT would screw solos/randoms/pugs but do absolutely nothing about the unkillable groups stacking dedicated healers, which would continue filling group PvP with toxic play patterns of faction stacking, pug stomping, and stalemates.

Last time I tried a hardcore smallscale fight was about a month ago, 3v3 each with 2 stam damage and 1 healer/tank, we suffered no deaths at all, they had their one damage player die twice over the 15 minutes and immediately get necro rezzed each time, we all walked away from each other after it became apparent that though we had a slight upper hand, the enemy group could and would endlessly stall us out, especially with them using resource tower LoS defensively. This is the typical outcome of any competitive group engagement, from smallscale to raid.

And then one of my teammates says "that's why we prefer to fight pugs" ...toxic as that may be, trying to fight other competitive groups gets pretty miserable and toxic itself, so what do you even do? Most of my gameplay is spent sitting on a back keep or resource alone waiting for the few minutes I get to fight something vaguely competitive...

Congratulations, you now see precicley why eso pvp at "high level" is a meme. Most like to wax poetic about deep strategic cyrodil pvp (lol) and dare suggest what they think the right course of action is in terms of balancing the problem factors. They do this while utterly failing to realize trying to use cyrodil group dynamics as ANY form of reference for what should and shouldnt be nerfed is a fools errand, fill stop. And when you actually come into contact with a pvp scenario that actually carries weight in terms of players ACTUALLY needed to outplay other players where each member of the engagement shoulders equal burden of performance, and both groups are knowledgeable with effective builds, you get stalemates with little back and forth. These types of situations are what truly put pvp under the necessary degrees of scrutiny. And these types of situations are where many players completely lack insight or experience. Their entire mental framework is based around ball groups clashing in the front of a keep wall and want to talk about what should or shouldnt be nerfed in pvp.

Lol yeah it is pretty true that some people in pvp seem to think they are generals in real life, but the fact of the matter is that most players don't really run in super organized groups. At least not on my platform. Which is why the holy grail of pvp skill is being able to 1vx, but in reality that is impossible against organized groups and competent players. I think it's pretty reasonable that if two groups of the same skill and same number go head to head, it should be a stalemate. The only way to win fights in cyrodiil should be if there is an "unbalanced" situation, i.e. one group might have more numbers. One group might have emp, one group may be smaller but substantially more skilled than a larger group, and be running much stronger sets and be much more optimized. One group might have siege or volundrung. Situations like that. The "strategy" of pvp then becomes "ok how do I create a situation like this?" instead of "ok lets pvp at this keep for 5 hours and repeat the same fight where nobody wins or loses"

EDIT: I should add that increasing over all healing power is going to make creating a favorable situation substantially more difficult, and create even more situations of stalemating due to more players being substantially more difficult to kill. A flat dmg buff across the board would be nice, as well as touching up on a couple of skills that simply just heal for too much. Battle spirit imo is the best way to go about doing it. Make it give less healing received, make it give more damage taken from players. Battle spirit is very under-utilized in balance changes and it could be used to great effect

xylena_lazarow

Jman100582 wrote: »

ok lets pvp at this keep for 5 hours and repeat the same fight where nobody wins or loses

This is what a fight between an optimized 12-man and 60 randoms on the roof/walls of a tri-keep looks like. The optimized group racks up kills and AP repeatedly killing the same disorganized casuals, but they can't afford to stand still on a flag long enough to flip it against their numbers, meanwhile the disorganized casuals are mathematically incapable of breaking through the optimized group's heal stacking without them standing still inside a meatbag or Negate, which never happens (special thanks to Snow Treaders for helping make sure of that).

Eventually, one side brings more randoms to the fight to tip the balance, and the keep will either flip, or the optimized group will bail outside, they will never risk actually wiping. The disorganized casuals at least get to celebrate a d-tick for their non-wipe "victory" after hours of banging their heads against the wall and ranting in zone chat.

I avoid these fights.

Amottica

Seraphayel wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

I just want to point out, that throughout the already accumulated comments, and also mostly evident in the other threads that seem to pertain to the issue....

Even though the solution may be a debate, or the how/why may be a debate.... Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem.

Just. Saying.

But the problem is not with healing. One needs to look for the actual problem and deal with that or face really messing things up.

I noted what the problem is and a very workable solution that also brings add challenge for those that are up for it. Ofc, people going for lesser challenging content will still face the same issue but that is due to their choice.

The problem is absolutely with healing. Healing is not the only problem though, but it’s one of the main concerns. It was a big issue until U33, but with U33 it will be the gigantic elephant in a tiny room.

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM. Zenimax has amped up the power creep over the years making a lot of the older content trivial from every aspect. Even the OP notes this, but in reality, it is the main problem and it needs to be addressed before we can see how big of an issue healing actually is if it is at all.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM.

Optimized PvP comps have a lot more dedicated healers stacked than trials PvE comps do, and are also getting incidental cross healing from their damage dealers on top of that.

Seraphayel

Amottica wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

I just want to point out, that throughout the already accumulated comments, and also mostly evident in the other threads that seem to pertain to the issue....

Even though the solution may be a debate, or the how/why may be a debate.... Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem.

Just. Saying.

But the problem is not with healing. One needs to look for the actual problem and deal with that or face really messing things up.

I noted what the problem is and a very workable solution that also brings add challenge for those that are up for it. Ofc, people going for lesser challenging content will still face the same issue but that is due to their choice.

The problem is absolutely with healing. Healing is not the only problem though, but it’s one of the main concerns. It was a big issue until U33, but with U33 it will be the gigantic elephant in a tiny room.

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM. Zenimax has amped up the power creep over the years making a lot of the older content trivial from every aspect. Even the OP notes this, but in reality, it is the main problem and it needs to be addressed before we can see how big of an issue healing actually is if it is at all.

It’s mostly about PvP. Balance in PvE is a façade and only matters very little overall. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not discrediting PvE content with this statement, but healers are more of a buffer / off-dd than healer anyways. Healing in this game from a fundamental aspect is broken. Either you don’t need healing at all in PvE or you need to circumvent one shots. These extremes are the biggest problem of healing in PvE.

In PvP healing has been an ongoing issue for years now. Time to kill is at an all time high because every build is so tanky and has so much healing power that equally skilled or equipped foes just don’t die anymore. Sooner or later one retreats because the battle is going for 10 minutes without a winner - fun? Absolutely not.

Succuby

BalticBlues wrote: »

So Stamina will not only have the highest regular damage.
Stamina will not only have the highest proc set damage.
Stamina will not only have the best mobility in the game.
Stamina now will also get the highest healing in the game?

This is the final death blow to the tiny rest of balance in Elder Stamina Online PvP.

What is the point of playing Magicka in PvP?
What is the point of playing Magicka Healers in PvP?
What is the point of playing PvP when finally all players play Stamina?
What is the point of playing PvP when finally all players automatically become Stamina Healers?

Played mana in pvp all that time... all is ok.

May be just not use Alcasts builds [snip] ?

And now it will not even be stamina or mana. It will be green mana and blue mana.

[edited for baiting]

BalticBlues

Succuby wrote: »

May be just not use Alcasts builds [snip] ?

I do not see any relevance and discussion about Alcast builds in this thread.
[snip]

btw: Alcast is a great guy. One of the few Youtubers who is not a fan boy but an honest critic.
I am looking forward to what he will say about Healing scaling with Stam Damage.
To me, this is the worst design failure in a lot of design failures over the last 3 years.

Because with this, Stamina can have the biggest damage cake in the game and eat it at the same time by having the biggest healing as well. This is absurd and nonsene lore-wise. If you cannot see this, how about reversing it: Why not scaling damage with healing? So the best healers would get the best damage? Nonsense? Sure. Like the nonsense of scaling healing with damage.

Some YouTube DD Streamers want it all. And got it from the devs over the last 3 years.
And finally they also want to be the best DDs and Healers at the same time? [snip].
It is like Conan the Barbarian wants to steal Elrond's healing to become PvP Jesus himself.

[edited for flaming, profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Jman100582

BalticBlues wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

May be just not use Alcasts builds [snip] ?

I do not see any relevance and discussion about Alcast builds in this thread.
[snip]

btw: Alcast is a great guy. One of the few Youtubers who is not a fan boy but an honest critic.
I am looking forward to what he will say about Healing scaling with Stam Damage.
To me, this is the worst design failure in a lot of design failures over the last 3 years.

Because with this, Stamina can have the biggest damage cake in the game and eat it at the same time by having the biggest healing as well. This is absurd and nonsene lore-wise. If you cannot see this, how about reversing it: Why not scaling damage with healing? So the best healers would get the best damage? Nonsense? Sure. Like the nonsense of scaling healing with damage.

Some YouTube DD Streamers want it all. And got it from the devs over the last 3 years.
And finally they also want to be the best DDs and Healers at the same time? [snip].
It is like Conan the Barbarian wants to steal Elrond's healing to become PvP Jesus himself.

I don't see how it's nonsense lore-wise. Lore has never once been used as a reasoning for balance changes. You know what I think is nonsense? That healers in both pvp and pve have been exclusively mag based. Why you ask? Well because mag has always had the strongest heals. And the most healing skills for that matter. And in pvp, what classes hit the hardest right now in pvp? That's right, magplar and magdk. Those classes have BEEN having the biggest damage cake AND some of the biggest healing cake. Also worth mentioning: magsorc has better heals on live than stamsorc, magbade has better heals on live than stamblade, magcro has better heals than stamcro. The only class where there could be an argument that stam has better heals is warden. imo anyway. I'd also say its relatively equal stamdk vs magdk heals. A majority of class toolkits are primarily mag costing abilities. That scale off mag and spell dmg. I think it's more than fair that at the very least class abilities are hybrid scaling, maybe not weapon abilities sure. But at least by having all class abilities being hybrid it means you can actually fully enjoy your class instead of feeling like you're at a disadvantage just because you wanted to look cool with a 2h sword

EDIT: Should also add that alcast does not produce good pvp builds at all. Alcast builds have always been pretty meme worthy in the pvp community, as all in all they tend to be pretty bad and not worth playing. Which is what that other guy was trying to say; try playing a "good" pvp build

[edited to remove quote]

VarisVaris

BalticBlues wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

May be just not use Alcasts builds [snip] ?

I do not see any relevance and discussion about Alcast builds in this thread.
[snip]

btw: Alcast is a great guy. One of the few Youtubers who is not a fan boy but an honest critic.
I am looking forward to what he will say about Healing scaling with Stam Damage.
To me, this is the worst design failure in a lot of design failures over the last 3 years.

Because with this, Stamina can have the biggest damage cake in the game and eat it at the same time by having the biggest healing as well. This is absurd and nonsene lore-wise. If you cannot see this, how about reversing it: Why not scaling damage with healing? So the best healers would get the best damage? Nonsense? Sure. Like the nonsense of scaling healing with damage.

Some YouTube DD Streamers want it all. And got it from the devs over the last 3 years.
And finally they also want to be the best DDs and Healers at the same time? [snip].
It is like Conan the Barbarian wants to steal Elrond's healing to become PvP Jesus himself.

So you're asking for stam to become sitting ducks because the shouldn't heal themselves?

Having healing scale with your offensive stats has been more than fine for the most part of the 8 years since the game launched.
Healing became an issue when it scaled with your defensive stats like HP because that rewarded people for building tanky by making them even more tanky while also punishing any offensive investment as it wouldn't help you with survivability.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM.

Optimized PvP comps have a lot more dedicated healers stacked than trials PvE comps do, and are also getting incidental cross healing from their damage dealers on top of that.

So the issue is group composition, as you noted. That is life and nothing in the game should be nerfed because of group composition.

Find a better group or group leader if they are running with weaker group compositions.

VarisVaris

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM.

Optimized PvP comps have a lot more dedicated healers stacked than trials PvE comps do, and are also getting incidental cross healing from their damage dealers on top of that.

So the issue is group composition, as you noted. That is life and nothing in the game should be nerfed because of group composition.

Find a better group or group leader if they are running with weaker group compositions.

Of course things should be nerfed if they turn out to be overperforming in certain combinations.
What's even the argument here?
Oh something is completely busted but too bad it's tied to a specific group composition too bad, that's just asking for no further balance changes at all.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

So the issue is group composition, as you noted. That is life and nothing in the game should be nerfed because of group composition. Find a better group or group leader if they are running with weaker group compositions.

This is the same tired "git gud" and it makes me think you haven't actually fought the "optimized group vs optimized group" fight, I posted about my last experience somewhere else but tl;dr pretty much guaranteed to stalemate. Fights need to be able to end, the groups that are good now will adapt and still be good without massive heal stacking.

Urzigurumash

VarisVaris wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

May be just not use Alcasts builds [snip] ?

I do not see any relevance and discussion about Alcast builds in this thread.
[snip]

btw: Alcast is a great guy. One of the few Youtubers who is not a fan boy but an honest critic.
I am looking forward to what he will say about Healing scaling with Stam Damage.
To me, this is the worst design failure in a lot of design failures over the last 3 years.

Because with this, Stamina can have the biggest damage cake in the game and eat it at the same time by having the biggest healing as well. This is absurd and nonsene lore-wise. If you cannot see this, how about reversing it: Why not scaling damage with healing? So the best healers would get the best damage? Nonsense? Sure. Like the nonsense of scaling healing with damage.

Some YouTube DD Streamers want it all. And got it from the devs over the last 3 years.
And finally they also want to be the best DDs and Healers at the same time? [snip].
It is like Conan the Barbarian wants to steal Elrond's healing to become PvP Jesus himself.

So you're asking for stam to become sitting ducks because the shouldn't heal themselves?

Having healing scale with your offensive stats has been more than fine for the most part of the 8 years since the game launched.
Healing became an issue when it scaled with your defensive stats like HP because that rewarded people for building tanky by making them even more tanky while also punishing any offensive investment as it wouldn't help you with survivability.

HP-scaled Heals have always existed - but they didn't always Crit. So perhaps they were never seen as a problem until they also scaled from an Offensive stat. Personally I think eras when HP-scaled Heals were noticeably imbalanced had more to do with the ease of Sustain/Mobility than anything particular about the Heal itself, but maybe not.

Anyhow all this talk of lore and what "should" be, isn't the tradition, more or less:

Thieves, Clerics = healing skills
Warriors, Mages = no healing skills

[edited to remove quote]

BalticBlues

VarisVaris wrote: »

So you're asking for stam to become sitting ducks because the shouldn't heal themselves?

Nonsense, where did I say that?

But it is essential that there are tradeoffs in the game.
Stam has the strongest DPS in the game because Stam is mostly melee.
If Stam also gets the strongest healing in the game, the balance is gone.
There will be no risk vs reward anymore then - it will be just rewards.

Jman100582

BalticBlues wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

So you're asking for stam to become sitting ducks because the shouldn't heal themselves?

Nonsense, where did I say that?

But it is essential that there are tradeoffs in the game.
Stam has the strongest DPS in the game because Stam is mostly melee.
If Stam also gets the strongest healing in the game, the balance is gone.
There will be no risk vs reward anymore then - it will be just rewards.

You say that, but magplar and magdk are also melee classes. Magden could also be said that it's melee due to shalks, but I consider it to be more mid-ranged if anything. But melee works on there as well. Magblade can also be played as melee with concealed weapon, grant it not super effective as b4b is just a better version of concealed, but that is also melee. The only two "true" ranged mag classes are magsorc and magcro. Everything else is played mostly melee. There is no risk reward for anything anymore. Regardless of if it is mag or stam. Magsorc and magcro are strong in their own rights, with magcro having ridiculous heals and dmg and magsorc having ridiculous damage and mobility. Pretty much any class can hit hard, regardless of if it is ranged or melee. The only issue is that some classes are inherently more tanky than others, and the healing hybridization is only going to exacerbate this

Amottica

VarisVaris wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Healing would be an issue if the issue was clearly apparent in the most challenging trials on HM.

Optimized PvP comps have a lot more dedicated healers stacked than trials PvE comps do, and are also getting incidental cross healing from their damage dealers on top of that.

So the issue is group composition, as you noted. That is life and nothing in the game should be nerfed because of group composition.

Find a better group or group leader if they are running with weaker group compositions.

Of course things should be nerfed if they turn out to be overperforming in certain combinations.
What's even the argument here?
Oh something is completely busted but too bad it's tied to a specific group composition too bad, that's just asking for no further balance changes at all.

No argument from me. I merely stated the fact in relation to the full comment I quoted. Their comment stated the problem is in PvP an optimized group (one that is well led and organized) carries multiple healers.

So do we nerf DPS because well-organized groups start stacking more DPS?

I also noted what the real issue is which is something that is stated clearly in the OP. You can find that in my first post of this thread.

McTaterskins

Drumming this issue back up.

Seeing any changes in the upcoming patch at this point is likely a pipe dream though. But still. One can hope.

xylena_lazarow

McTaterskins wrote: »

Drumming this issue back up. Seeing any changes in the upcoming patch at this point is likely a pipe dream though. But still. One can hope.

They rarely even make minor changes this late in the patch cycle. The best we can hope is that with healing reaching new levels of insane in U33, ZOS finally notices.

p00tx

This suggestion doesn't work in this game because healers are never just pure healers (or at least they ideally shouldn't be, if they're doing their jobs properly) and sometimes dps need to be able to heal themselves during certain mechanics. You can't make changes like this without completely altering the entire game, from trial mechanics to combat mechanics.

If healing needs to be changed in PvP, and I'll concede that point to people who spend more time in PvP (I can't bring myself to do it these days), then that change needs to be made strictly within the confines of Cyrodil, and not be made to affect the rest of the game.