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Overland Content Feedback Thread
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Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.Edited by Arrodisia on September 5, 2022 3:08PM0 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
11 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild targeted buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
Edited by Arrodisia on September 6, 2022 12:43AM1 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
6 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
I play without mythics and usually without companions. I think that it depends on what part of overland youre looking at. Theres definitely a substantial jump between dolmens and harrowstorms or lava vents. World bosses as well.
When I make a new character, which is admittedly not very often, I usually will solo world bosses in base game overland as Im running along. I think its less about damage, incoming or outgoing, and more about the mechanics themselves. A lot of them seem to be less involved mechanically and longer telegraphs. Its much harder to do in High Isles, for example. I'll run out of resources pretty quickly avoiding damage at low levels.
I think that for the most part, the chapters are definitely an upgrade in terms of engagement. The story bosses are still a little, meh, but its an improvement.
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do.
Update 35 was a blanket, forced nerf of the entire playbase that impacted players in all content, including hard content. Nobody requested the hard content get even harder. This was not the way to do it, and I always said a lot of people would quit if it wasn't optional. It should also be noted that none of the enemies hit harder, so they aren't more difficult just more time consuming. Without an increase of damage taken it's not harder just longer.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 5, 2022 8:26PM4 -
Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.1 -
Tsilara✭✭✭I feel the developers and company don't "get it" anymore and are catering to the wrong people trying to keep lines going up and the business profitable and the yearly bonuses coming in.
I won't comment on PVP aspects, as I do not take get any sort of enjoyment or pleasure in that aspect of the game, other than to say PVP changes have ruined my enjoyment of PVE as someone who plays healer based toons exclusively to help people complete challenging content. U35 destroyed my game completely, and like many players I see the loss in the logins and presence of people in the guilds I am a part of.
Overland questing was never difficult since they added the level scaling that everyone gets while a character from 1 to 50. That was the "One Tameriel" changes. That really did bring accessibility to the game. It was quite an interesting decision. If you notice as you level, you lose where you had a high pool of health, magika, and stamina. You begin losing from those pools as you level, and you put attribute points into them to prop them back up to suit your build, but you cannot prop them all back up.
I consider the whole experience of level 1 to 50 a tutorial for entrance into the rest of the game and the end game.
The difficult overland content is in the public dungeons, world bosses, zone events like Harrow storms, and Vet Solo Arena's. In overland you can find a challenge there. Overland and questing is story mode, there is challenge but not as much. I personally have no issue with that.
IIRC, one of the reasons they added companions was to increase accessibility to overland and solo players. They added companions to help people with overland difficulty and to solo instanced 4 man dungeons, both normal and vet mode. While those hard things may not be difficult to you and your build and the guides you have read, they were and are difficult for some people.
Personally, I think overland is fine. Public dungeons can be very difficult to solo when you lack skill unlocks and synergestic gearsets and if your build is broken or very strange and you don't understand how to play very well yet. Once you solve that by reading guides and getting the gear and modifying your build, its not that difficult.
You could make it more difficult by downgrading your gear and changing your build if you wanted too.
If Overland is the only game you want to play then you are missing out on the challenging content, which requires playing with other people in the veteran and hardmode dungeons and trials. Some would question, If you don't want to play with other players, then why are you playing an MMO?
I do not feel the company deals with feedback, nor communicates, very well. They clearly listen to the wrong people and their internal echo chambers and champions of direction have a blurry eyed vision and sense of direction. That's just my opinion over the past few years of being what some would call a content locust and theory crafter type of power gamer who likes to understand min/maxing. There was a clear shift that happened in the community, the staff, and within the company during the past few years with Covid.
Its also very difficult for the company and its internal staff to understand the perspective of the community when internally they can simply give themselves the gear and skills and whatever they want to the characters they use for testing. I feel there are some internal ego's that are problematic and some of that has slipped into public comments.
They don't suffer from the latency issues a player in south america or asia pacific may have. They don't suffer from the hardware differences and all the multitude of variations that the player base has when doing or testing those things internally that may take a player many months or a year to collect and achieve.
The time and emotional investment is missing and misunderstood when the players feel loss through nerfs and changes that were never a problem for years due to nerfs and changes of directions and vision and a reaction to some other aspect of the game that should possibly have been improved. They don't root cause very well.
Older players will leave, newer players will come on board over time who lack that investment and sense of loss. I feel the goals of the community and the business goals are in conflict. There is no end state save when costs surpass the income, and they can no longer profit.
I feel the power differences need to be larger for the different ranks of gear and skills themselves as you level them up, They used to be more dramatic and noticeable.
They create player fatigue with all the update changes, its a repeating story, they do not learn, or they would stop making the same mistakes again and again. They go live with things they know are broken, and attempt to address it later. Then they do that and introduce another echo of the same problems in a different location.2 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
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Have you read...any of the previous posts in this thread at all? Plenty of us have tried that and it doesn't help. It just makes enemies take slightly longer to die while still being non-threatening pushovers. If there were a solution that simple there wouldn't be so many people asking for a solution.You could make it more difficult by downgrading your gear and changing your build if you wanted too.
The reason people want a challenging overland option isn't because we don't know vet dungeons and trials exist, and it isn't because we want challenge but want to avoid those modes. It's because the vast majority of content in the game -- far more than you can get to by the time you reach level 50 -- consists of overland quests, and we want those quests to be an immersive experience. For many of us, it gives us narrative whiplash to have a quest giver tell us that such-and-such boss is a huge scary threat, or that such-and-such town has been abandoned because of some dangerous group, or having lore tell us that such-and-such monsters are dangerous, and find that in actual gameplay none of that is true and no enemy poses a threat after all. It's anti-climactic an unimmersive.
I get that other players don't have that experience, and no one wants to change the good experience folks those folks are presently having. But enough of us do have that experience that it would be good for ZOS to do something.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.11 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.
Yes definitely. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread by someone. I merely think improvements that benefit the players which the majority can agree on can be more beneficial for an 8 year old game.Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
That's another thing though. Many players don't play with companions and legendaries even when they have the DLC'S. So one player's power and experience isn't the same as another's. Many players keep it simple. Some don't even know companions, antiquities and legendaries are available in the game when they start out and often for quite a while afterwards.
For example, a tank or healer with no legendaries, no champ points, no food, no potions, no companion, etc, They're just starting out at level 5 with no or little gaming experience in let's say Blackwood or High Isle. They stumble upon a world Boss. Another player or 2 attack said boss and the new player thinks ""ok 1-2 other people attacked I'm going to get in on this. " then the boss does his lovely special attack and poof! The new player is dead on the ground and probably without a soul gem. All of this while doing supposedly easy content which they read about here in this thread. They haven't even had a chance to learn much to aid themselves or a group in combat. A nice combat training instance would've given them some of this knowledge.
Yes. We did get primal stats and such but base penetration had been removed. Our skills, gear and champ points were already nerfed multiple times since champ points and abilities were reworked and released. Then we got the OP companions and legendaries which didn't need to be that strong from the beginning. A simple solution for br-Oaken soul from day 1 was to make it less effective or useless in PvP. so it could still be used elsewhere if players chose to use it.
Next point, yes a fair chunk of the thread talks about creating/not creeating an optional harder mode than what we normally have and it discusses multiple other suggestions. However, we've seen HM overland implemented already in other games and we discussed it in this very thread. It's difficult to implement. It's rarely played, buggy and a massive undertaking. We're talking with a team this size minimum 1-2 years just to get it halfway playable and another 1 year or more to get most of the bugs out of it. So we can experience balanced play. Plus, we'd get way less new content and features since they'd be focused on that difficult task.We still have the main story bugged from 3 1/2 months ago. Plus, other older bugs occasionally reoccuring after patches which need to be addressed and I'm being generous with these examples.
I actually like a challenge sometimes, but I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall with little to no new content just to get old overland content done for a couple years while they figure it out the problems it causes especially as a healer. Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode. That's the way games and players are. As the game becomes more familiar things become easier and more fun to do as a group.
There are a lot of other points to make too. However, in the end the majority of players will usually take the easy road to complete content. If it ends up being too annoying and too time consuming, like a RL job, school, and other responsibilities they'll just quit instead of begging for better skills and content nerfs to complete vet mode. The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I do see both sides of the arguments here.
In theory something optional doesn't bother me as long as gear rewards are not stronger gear and we don't lose the 4 major content DLC and expansion updates each year. If gear rewards are increased they would be closer to trial gear, making trials even less popular. Plus, the devs will do more player side hatchet nerfing, as more players don the new gear. instead players should be doing it for the personal challenge, and achievements possibly even some pets, skins or mount fragments. So it doesn't do more harm than good. If less content or lower quality content is released because of a change like this, it'll create larger drops in population than we usually see.
As I stated before, this isn't an easy topic to settle and it's up to the devs to implement what they believe is feasible and matches the larger portion of the player base.
Edited by Arrodisia on September 6, 2022 1:48AM2 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do.
Update 35 was a blanket, forced nerf of the entire playbase that impacted players in all content, including hard content. Nobody requested the hard content get even harder. This was not the way to do it, and I always said a lot of people would quit if it wasn't optional. It should also be noted that none of the enemies hit harder, so they aren't more difficult just more time consuming. Without an increase of damage taken it's not harder just longer.
I'm well aware of this being a blanket nerf. I did mention this would happen in the forums before Update 35 was released. I posted approximate calculations and the reasons why this update was too extreme in the nerf department. They listened a little to the players and reduced multiple planned nerfs. Also, I didn't say it impacted only 1 type of content or any of the rest of the assumptions.
Some players didn't read my suggestions, but rather only my later post, which answered another players mistaken comment and assumptions.
I and many others actually mentioned why these nerfs would cause player push back before they happened. One of the many positive suggestions that devs could implement in my point by point post here was specifically to make AI more intelligent. the devs have already stated they won't be going in the direction of harder overland. Multiple players have already linked dev comments in the thread.
It's generally best for all players to enter the forums with an open mind, read through the thread and related threads before jumping hastily to conclusions. When players comment directly to someone they should at least know what was really said and in which context it was used. There are so many pros and cons which should be equally considered before mistaken assumptions and decisions are made.
Edited by Arrodisia on September 6, 2022 2:00AM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do.
Update 35 was a blanket, forced nerf of the entire playbase that impacted players in all content, including hard content. Nobody requested the hard content get even harder. This was not the way to do it, and I always said a lot of people would quit if it wasn't optional. It should also be noted that none of the enemies hit harder, so they aren't more difficult just more time consuming. Without an increase of damage taken it's not harder just longer.
I'm well aware of this being a blanket nerf. I did mention this would happen in the forums before Update 35 was released. I posted approximate calculations and the reasons why this update was too extreme in the nerf department. They listened a little and reduced multiple planned nerfs. Also, I didn't say it impacted only 1 type of content or any of the rest of the assumptions.
I didn't say that your post implied or said that it only impacted U35, only that the response to U35 is almost entirely irrelevant to Overland. It's unreasonable to expect someone to go into your post history and mindread which other threads you consider relevant to your post here. If you want someone to take that information into account, you have to link it. Because the only thing people are going to read is what you've posted in the thread you're currently in (In this case Overland).
As far your other suggestions, I read them. But I didn't address them it is not anything not already suggested here a lot. Anyone who has read this thread at this point knows my opinion on the various solutions proposed. The stuff like housing slots is irrelevant. I just wanted to express my disagreement that the current update has much of any relevance on Overland. It didn't do anything anyone proposed here, and it did not have any significant impact on the questing because the questing is so easy that you'd have to lose way more power for it to have a real impact. About the only relevance is it shows what happens when stuff is forced. That's about it.
I don't know why some people think this update has anything to do with Overland. The devs themselves said it was meant to lower the ceiling and increase accessibility of difficult content. They didn't make any of the Overland mobs hit harder so they are still killed the exact same way and still aren't going to kill you, even if you stand in stupid.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 6, 2022 2:08AM4 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do.
Update 35 was a blanket, forced nerf of the entire playbase that impacted players in all content, including hard content. Nobody requested the hard content get even harder. This was not the way to do it, and I always said a lot of people would quit if it wasn't optional. It should also be noted that none of the enemies hit harder, so they aren't more difficult just more time consuming. Without an increase of damage taken it's not harder just longer.
I'm well aware of this being a blanket nerf. I did mention this would happen in the forums before Update 35 was released. I posted approximate calculations and the reasons why this update was too extreme in the nerf department. They listened a little and reduced multiple planned nerfs. Also, I didn't say it impacted only 1 type of content or any of the rest of the assumptions.
I didn't say that your post implied or said that it only impacted U35, only that the response to U35 is almost entirely irrelevant to Overland.
Yet the response to U35 isn't mostly irrelevant to overland. U35 impacted overland too. This thread began by asking what players enjoy in overland. Players enjoyed leveling, farming, questing, looting, etc. in overland. TTK is longer which means players including newer players take more damge during the fight time on the harder content like world bosses. More damage was added to base game world bosses and dolmens, long before U35, to close the gap between DLC overland and base game overland. We all killed everything including world bosses so fast we barely took any damage. Now that DPS is lower many players at the mid and lower end of the dps spectrum are impacted quite a bit. Longer TTK is a slowing of progression in most aspects of the game, overland included.Edited by Arrodisia on September 6, 2022 2:27AM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You know, you should really separate your own response which is thisYet the response to U35 isn't mostly irrelevant to overland. U35 impacted overland too. This thread began by asking what players enjoy in overland. Players enjoyed leveling, farming, questing, looting, etc. in overland. TTK is longer which means players including newer players take more damge during the fight time on the harder content like world bosses. More damage was added to base game world bosses and dolmens, long before U35, to close the gap between DLC overland and base game overland. We all killed everything including world bosses so fast we barely took any damage. Now that DPS is lower many players at the mid and lower end of the dps spectrum are impacted quite a bit. Longer TTK is a slowing of progression in most aspects of the game, overland included.
From my response, especially given the part of my response you chose to quote to let me know this was a response to me. The way it is formatted now, I thought you were trying to say that I said this, but I did not. I realize now you're trying to respond to me instead, and the quotes broke for you. In order to fix them edit it so it says [ quote= spartaxoxo;(random numbers)] once at the beginning of my quote and then [ /quote] at the end of my reply. Delete any other boxes that say [ quote=blahblah] or [ / quote] and it should fix itself.
Anyway, broken bbcode aside....
It is mostly irrelevant to Overland. There has been little complaints about Overland, and in fact most of the people who either don't care about U35 or even support it have come from people who mostly stick to Overland. And their attitude has mostly been "It had no to little noticeable impact on me at all, I think the U35 hate is exaggerated." This is because the TTK in Overland is so low that it's still really easy, and thus the difficulty increase was negligible. The backlash to U35 has overwhelmingly about group content and PVP because that's where the differences are actually felt. In addition, some people have had class specific (rather than overland specific) complaints. World Boss damage has not been increased. The fight is longer but a 3k hit is still a 3k hit. And that's what actually makes it harder, not an additional 1 second to the fight.
Edited by spartaxoxo on September 6, 2022 4:37AM5 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.
Yes definitely. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread by someone. I merely think improvements that benefit the players which the majority can agree on can be more beneficial for an 8 year old game.Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
That's another thing though. Many players don't play with companions and legendaries even when they have the DLC'S. So one player's power and experience isn't the same as another's. Many players keep it simple. Some don't even know companions, antiquities and legendaries are available in the game when they start out and often for quite a while afterwards.
For example, a tank or healer with no legendaries, no champ points, no food, no potions, no companion, etc, They're just starting out at level 5 with no or little gaming experience in let's say Blackwood or High Isle. They stumble upon a world Boss. Another player or 2 attack said boss and the new player thinks ""ok 1-2 other people attacked I'm going to get in on this. " then the boss does his lovely special attack and poof! The new player is dead on the ground and probably without a soul gem. All of this while doing supposedly easy content which they read about here in this thread. They haven't even had a chance to learn much to aid themselves or a group in combat. A nice combat training instance would've given them some of this knowledge.
Yes. We did get primal stats and such but base penetration had been removed. Our skills, gear and champ points were already nerfed multiple times since champ points and abilities were reworked and released. Then we got the OP companions and legendaries which didn't need to be that strong from the beginning. A simple solution for br-Oaken soul from day 1 was to make it less effective or useless in PvP. so it could still be used elsewhere if players chose to use it.
Next point, yes a fair chunk of the thread talks about creating/not creeating an optional harder mode than what we normally have and it discusses multiple other suggestions. However, we've seen HM overland implemented already in other games and we discussed it in this very thread. It's difficult to implement. It's rarely played, buggy and a massive undertaking. We're talking with a team this size minimum 1-2 years just to get it halfway playable and another 1 year or more to get most of the bugs out of it. So we can experience balanced play. Plus, we'd get way less new content and features since they'd be focused on that difficult task.We still have the main story bugged from 3 1/2 months ago. Plus, other older bugs occasionally reoccuring after patches which need to be addressed and I'm being generous with these examples.
I actually like a challenge sometimes, but I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall with little to no new content just to get old overland content done for a couple years while they figure it out the problems it causes especially as a healer. Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode. That's the way games and players are. As the game becomes more familiar things become easier and more fun to do as a group.
There are a lot of other points to make too. However, in the end the majority of players will usually take the easy road to complete content. If it ends up being too annoying and too time consuming, like a RL job, school, and other responsibilities they'll just quit instead of begging for better skills and content nerfs to complete vet mode. The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I do see both sides of the arguments here.
In theory something optional doesn't bother me as long as gear rewards are not stronger gear and we don't lose the 4 major content DLC and expansion updates each year. If gear rewards are increased they would be closer to trial gear, making trials even less popular. Plus, the devs will do more player side hatchet nerfing, as more players don the new gear. instead players should be doing it for the personal challenge, and achievements possibly even some pets, skins or mount fragments. So it doesn't do more harm than good. If less content or lower quality content is released because of a change like this, it'll create larger drops in population than we usually see.
As I stated before, this isn't an easy topic to settle and it's up to the devs to implement what they believe is feasible and matches the larger portion of the player base.
That is the thing though: throwing new players in latest dlcs while not accounting for what it provides seems like rather poor marketing strategy to add more value to it and connected mini dlcs rather than accommodate new players to in game mechanics by small steps.
I remember when I started, I was thrown in Northern Elsweir and almost immediately came across dragon, who annihilated me instantly, though there were others nearby. It didn’t take me long to figure out that this zone isn’t the one I was meant to be so I googled that the best way to start is to port to Auridon, encounter hooded figure and start though base game story in order. That not only ensured that I had easier time learing the game but also gave understanding of overall story direction (who is Abnur Tharn, Cadwell, Sai Sahan, what alliance war mean and so on). It was still on the easier side for me even as a new player but I could kind of deal with that. What makes it boring is the fact that you already encounter no difficulty changes throughout of hundreds of hours of questing in base game and at that point you most likely reaching 400CP, decent understanding of you class, skills and basic gameplay mechanics, having some sets, etc. With all that baggage going through another hundreds of hours of dlc content, which has no significant changes to account to that outside of group-oriented stuff, become dull experience.
No they won’t, if it balanced correctly. Very few if anyone complained that old dlc dungeons and trials become easier with more power creep added to the game, same here. It would be understandable that clearing it for the first time on day 1 would be more challenging than a few years later with FOTM gear after running it multiple times on several alts.Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode.
The main points about its failure made in this thread: it was time-consuming group only content with bad rewards, mediocre story and no alternatives to experience it any other way. Blaming it solely on difficulty is rather misleading.The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
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Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.
Yes definitely. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread by someone. I merely think improvements that benefit the players which the majority can agree on can be more beneficial for an 8 year old game.Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
That's another thing though. Many players don't play with companions and legendaries even when they have the DLC'S. So one player's power and experience isn't the same as another's. Many players keep it simple. Some don't even know companions, antiquities and legendaries are available in the game when they start out and often for quite a while afterwards.
For example, a tank or healer with no legendaries, no champ points, no food, no potions, no companion, etc, They're just starting out at level 5 with no or little gaming experience in let's say Blackwood or High Isle. They stumble upon a world Boss. Another player or 2 attack said boss and the new player thinks ""ok 1-2 other people attacked I'm going to get in on this. " then the boss does his lovely special attack and poof! The new player is dead on the ground and probably without a soul gem. All of this while doing supposedly easy content which they read about here in this thread. They haven't even had a chance to learn much to aid themselves or a group in combat. A nice combat training instance would've given them some of this knowledge.
Yes. We did get primal stats and such but base penetration had been removed. Our skills, gear and champ points were already nerfed multiple times since champ points and abilities were reworked and released. Then we got the OP companions and legendaries which didn't need to be that strong from the beginning. A simple solution for br-Oaken soul from day 1 was to make it less effective or useless in PvP. so it could still be used elsewhere if players chose to use it.
Next point, yes a fair chunk of the thread talks about creating/not creeating an optional harder mode than what we normally have and it discusses multiple other suggestions. However, we've seen HM overland implemented already in other games and we discussed it in this very thread. It's difficult to implement. It's rarely played, buggy and a massive undertaking. We're talking with a team this size minimum 1-2 years just to get it halfway playable and another 1 year or more to get most of the bugs out of it. So we can experience balanced play. Plus, we'd get way less new content and features since they'd be focused on that difficult task.We still have the main story bugged from 3 1/2 months ago. Plus, other older bugs occasionally reoccuring after patches which need to be addressed and I'm being generous with these examples.
I actually like a challenge sometimes, but I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall with little to no new content just to get old overland content done for a couple years while they figure it out the problems it causes especially as a healer. Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode. That's the way games and players are. As the game becomes more familiar things become easier and more fun to do as a group.
There are a lot of other points to make too. However, in the end the majority of players will usually take the easy road to complete content. If it ends up being too annoying and too time consuming, like a RL job, school, and other responsibilities they'll just quit instead of begging for better skills and content nerfs to complete vet mode. The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I do see both sides of the arguments here.
In theory something optional doesn't bother me as long as gear rewards are not stronger gear and we don't lose the 4 major content DLC and expansion updates each year. If gear rewards are increased they would be closer to trial gear, making trials even less popular. Plus, the devs will do more player side hatchet nerfing, as more players don the new gear. instead players should be doing it for the personal challenge, and achievements possibly even some pets, skins or mount fragments. So it doesn't do more harm than good. If less content or lower quality content is released because of a change like this, it'll create larger drops in population than we usually see.
As I stated before, this isn't an easy topic to settle and it's up to the devs to implement what they believe is feasible and matches the larger portion of the player base.
That is the thing though: throwing new players in latest dlcs while not accounting for what it provides seems like rather poor marketing strategy to add more value to it and connected mini dlcs rather than accommodate new players to in game mechanics by small steps.
I remember when I started, I was thrown in Northern Elsweir and almost immediately came across dragon, who annihilated me instantly, though there were others nearby. It didn’t take me long to figure out that this zone isn’t the one I was meant to be so I googled that the best way to start is to port to Auridon, encounter hooded figure and start though base game story in order. That not only ensured that I had easier time learing the game but also gave understanding of overall story direction (who is Abnur Tharn, Cadwell, Sai Sahan, what alliance war mean and so on). It was still on the easier side for me even as a new player but I could kind of deal with that. What makes it boring is the fact that you already encounter no difficulty changes throughout of hundreds of hours of questing in base game and at that point you most likely reaching 400CP, decent understanding of you class, skills and basic gameplay mechanics, having some sets, etc. With all that baggage going through another hundreds of hours of dlc content, which has no significant changes to account to that outside of group-oriented stuff, become dull experience.
No they won’t, if it balanced correctly. Very few if anyone complained that old dlc dungeons and trials become easier with more power creep added to the game, same here. It would be understandable that clearing it for the first time on day 1 would be more challenging than a few years later with FOTM gear after running it multiple times on several alts.Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode.
The main points about its failure made in this thread: it was time-consuming group only content with bad rewards, mediocre story and no alternatives to experience it any other way. Blaming it solely on difficulty is rather misleading.The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I totally feel what you're saying. I don't want to speak about decisions devs make about the DLC's and new player access to them. I personally don't believe any players should be barred from new content they pay for. However, new players were 1 example yet we have long time casuals who don't spend time learning the latest rotations or picking up FoTM gear, classes and skills. It's their choice, of course, but this seems to be the majority of players according to the devs.
I was actually speaking from a lot of experience, which I was humbly keeping in the background, when I made the statement about players getting tired of vet and wanting another even hearder mode. I and many of my raiding friends and acquaintances were and some still are those players. You're right about the gear part. Yet that is actually unavoidable in gaming generally. Players will gain levels, get stronger shinies and wear them. Those shinies will then eventually be nerfed or replaced with something stronger.
My experiences in this game and others as a raid leader and as a member of other's raid teams tells me. Players who raid will almost always use their highest powered gear, smashing and grabbing through contact. It's definitely more efficient and logical. Once they're too familiar with content many do tire of it. A differnet mode won't make the stories different or more exciting after the 3rd or 4th time it's all yesterday's news no matter what mode it was in. This is why the path ESO is on is generally correct. They offer new content and regularly. Could we use a few more things? Maybe. It's natural for humans to seek out a balance of new and familiar things. It keeps their minds and souls fit. So I'm not for the extra mode or against it. I'm concerned what will happen to the game and it's player base if a hm is implemented instead of the other discussed options, especially since it's gone so wrong in other games.
I didn't say it was the only reason, but the loot and time weren't the main issues of Craglorn content. If they were the main issues they would've make some quests shorter and less encompassing, slapped on better loot and left the content with it's past difficulty. Instead, they nerfed the content difficulty based on player feedback.
Power creep and overland difficulty balance is an issue in almost every game. According to the devs customer feedback says overland content is challenging enough for the majority. I don't see it as ESO's to go to worst problem by far is my main point for the moment. Game balance is necesary and they're constantly working on it. However, I still see there are other things the devs can deliver which would be more feasible and appreciated by the majority of players at this time.Edited by Arrodisia on September 7, 2022 4:00AM0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Arrodisia
I think you're overstating the relevance of gear in overland. You could run trial sets, if you wanted, but it makes little to no difference. The difference in TTK in a meta build vs any other reasonably put together build against a boss with 200k health is measured in milliseconds.
I dont think that having an optional veteran instance would impact the game anymore than having a veteran dungeon impacts the dungeon finder. People run normal because its more efficient, others run vet because its more fun. People do run both.
There are public dungeons, Crow's Wood in Stonefalls for example, that under other circumstances I would really like. Its got a creepy Brothers Grimm vibe to it. It would be nice if it were darker as well. Id love to need a torch, but that its own topic. A new DLC comes with 6 delves and 2 dungeons, the same as most base game zones.
So assume that they were able to pull something like that off, thats 3 factions and 4 zones in each faction that contained public dungeons and delves, thats worth literal years of DLC content. I would also assume that its a good bit of work as well, but, Id wager an optional veteran overland mode would have been received at least as well as U35.
Elden Ring handled it reasonably well I think. Even in NG+ overland mobs can still kill you. You can probably still one-shot many, but they can kill you as well. At the end of June it was near 17M copies sold. I think its also reasonable to assume that there is indeed a market for it.6 -
DigiAngel✭✭✭✭✭To be perfectly candid, almost all of the area side missions just aren't worth the time. A smidge of xp and under 1K gold just isn't worth it. In fact...the last time I stopped playing ESO was when I was doing a side mission of finding rat parts to put in someones bag. I stopped.....asked myself why in the world am I doing this, exited and uninstalled then.
I realize devs can't make everything magical all the time, but if the rewards are worth it, even the most trite, trivial task will at least be worth it. My 2 cents.2 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Elden Ring handled it reasonably well I think. Even in NG+ overland mobs can still kill you. You can probably still one-shot many, but they can kill you as well. At the end of June it was near 17M copies sold. I think its also reasonable to assume that there is indeed a market for it.
Same arguments a long time later in this thread.
Some of us do not want to have to travel overland in fear of being nuked by overland mobs. I would guess that more players fall in this camp than in those who want to live on the edge in overland.PC
PS4/PS53 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »Elden Ring handled it reasonably well I think. Even in NG+ overland mobs can still kill you. You can probably still one-shot many, but they can kill you as well. At the end of June it was near 17M copies sold. I think its also reasonable to assume that there is indeed a market for it.
Same arguments a long time later in this thread.
Some of us do not want to have to travel overland in fear of being nuked by overland mobs. I would guess that more players fall in this camp than in those who want to live on the edge in overland.
Then I wouldn't go into the veteran instance. See? Choice. Its perfect.9 -
Dr_Con✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I would say that the elseweyr dragon world bosses are more difficult than nSS encounters. And even then, that's just the illusion of difficulty, as the dragons in nSS are still easy but they have more invulnerability phases- making their rewards greater. The only thing that makes the overland content "easy," as I said in a previous response, are the fact that you aren't limited to the number of people you can bring to an encounter, and those people can include the 100k+ parsing speedrunners that people aren't used to grouping with- it's literally a gamble and everyone's experience is different, just like doing dolmens in alik'ir vs doing them in cyrodiil are completely different experiences.
I do think that more time invested should be greater rewards earned, but i've seen this implementation in other games *cough* The Division *cough* and I don't think it would be a good idea to implement it here.
Invulnerability phases and more dynamic encounters for overworld content (i.e. stand on this pressure plate to get rid of the boss's shield, stand on this one to make it stop enrage, fire this corrosive acid pot trebuchet at it to make it take more damage, be in this bubble to not get killed by the aoe) are probably needed, as well as new rewards (even alchemical ingredients to make some of the major/minor potion buffs people have been asking for over the years) would be great.
I would also like to add-in the idea of players needing to buy/make/bring an item or bait to a spot and perform a ritual or sacrifice for the boss to spawn or be lured to a location in the overworld, that would be cool as hell.
Also, fishing? Can we get a rare Sea Sload or Yaghra encounter or something? Perhaps even Sheogorath *** with us and spawning Cthulu ? It would make a lot of people happy, maybe also frustrated, to be able to fish in a certain area to pull up an epic boss encounter.Edited by Dr_Con on September 7, 2022 12:28AM1 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »@Arrodisia
I think you're overstating the relevance of gear in overland. You could run trial sets, if you wanted, but it makes little to no difference. The difference in TTK in a meta build vs any other reasonably put together build against a boss with 200k health is measured in milliseconds.
I dont think that having an optional veteran instance would impact the game anymore than having a veteran dungeon impacts the dungeon finder. People run normal because its more efficient, others run vet because its more fun. People do run both.
There are public dungeons, Crow's Wood in Stonefalls for example, that under other circumstances I would really like. Its got a creepy Brothers Grimm vibe to it. It would be nice if it were darker as well. Id love to need a torch, but that its own topic. A new DLC comes with 6 delves and 2 dungeons, the same as most base game zones.
So assume that they were able to pull something like that off, thats 3 factions and 4 zones in each faction that contained public dungeons and delves, thats worth literal years of DLC content. I would also assume that its a good bit of work as well, but, Id wager an optional veteran overland mode would have been received at least as well as U35.
Elden Ring handled it reasonably well I think. Even in NG+ overland mobs can still kill you. You can probably still one-shot many, but they can kill you as well. At the end of June it was near 17M copies sold. I think its also reasonable to assume that there is indeed a market for it.
I didn't overstate anything about gear. I simply answered the multiple statements made by other players concerning power creep. Gear, skills, the whole lot were mentioned, and are generally part of that.
implementing hm has gone wrong in other games already.
ESO isn't Elden Rings. They're not even the same type of game. There are so many differnces and the devs don't want ESO to become Elden Ring, WoW, New World or any other game. Many players who left to try those and many other games have already returned.
Public dungeons in this game are fun as they currently are. Mobs can kill you in ESO too. We get plenty of new and casual players in our guilds dying and asking for help with base game and DLC overland content. Elden Ring had bugs and issues upon release and still has quite a few, like any other game. There are so many. I'd run out of space writing them all.
We still have bugs with current instancing amongst many other things. Adding hm instancing would more than likely increase it. Before a project like that is considered, most of the current bugs and performance issues in the game should be settled. We still have main quests and group content which are buggy.
Saying an optional HM would've been received as well as U35 isn't saying too much and certainly nothing in favor of a hm. U35 would probably be more welcome, especially since players would lose new content releases for a long period of time in place of receiving said HM and I doubt the lack of new incoming content would be welcome for long nor would the abundance of new bugs/issues.
It's up to the devs, not the players, to decide for or against implementing hm. The devs will need to convince the playerbase it can be implimented without costing us the new content we want regularly and without creating an abundance of new and game breaking bugs. For me personally, I haven't even decided if I would play Hm or not. I, merely, see the pros and cons. Unfortunately, in this case there are some heavy cons the "majority" of players would have to accept or otherwise leave the game.
After 130 pages there's still little objective, truthful feedback about the many ramifications and drawbacks. Splitting up the players further is usually a big con for games like this and has proven to be so for ESO in the past as well.
On that note, there seems to be some misinformation in this thread which was already pointed out. Things like that make the thread a lot less productive than it should be, which makes it less interesting for the devs. Some players aren't truthfully responding to positively critical comments they read and leaving out important details which would negatively impact the game as a whole. Players should know the positives and negatives a hm would bring before they decide they want it. That hasn't been objectively done here. The many cons which outweigh the positives are being partially left out and underplayed heavily while the small bit of supposed positives are being presented through rose colored glasses. This isn't a government election campaign. it's generally best to remain objective and open minded in forums. So players can decide based on the full truth.
Have a fun time playing everyone
Edited by Arrodisia on September 7, 2022 6:06AM1 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I would say that the elseweyr dragon world bosses are more difficult than nSS encounters. And even then, that's just the illusion of difficulty, as the dragons in nSS are still easy but they have more invulnerability phases- making their rewards greater. The only thing that makes the overland content "easy," as I said in a previous response, are the fact that you aren't limited to the number of people you can bring to an encounter, and those people can include the 100k+ parsing speedrunners that people aren't used to grouping with- it's literally a gamble and everyone's experience is different, just like doing dolmens in alik'ir vs doing them in cyrodiil are completely different experiences.
I do think that more time invested should be greater rewards earned, but i've seen this implementation in other games *cough* The Division *cough* and I don't think it would be a good idea to implement it here.
Invulnerability phases and more dynamic encounters for overworld content (i.e. stand on this pressure plate to get rid of the boss's shield, stand on this one to make it stop enrage, fire this corrosive acid pot trebuchet at it to make it take more damage, be in this bubble to not get killed by the aoe) are probably needed, as well as new rewards (even alchemical ingredients to make some of the major/minor potion buffs people have been asking for over the years) would be great.
I would also like to add-in the idea of players needing to buy/make/bring an item or bait to a spot and perform a ritual or sacrifice for the boss to spawn or be lured to a location in the overworld, that would be cool as hell.
Also, fishing? Can we get a rare Sea Sload or Yaghra encounter or something? Perhaps even Sheogorath *** with us and spawning Cthulu ? It would make a lot of people happy, maybe also frustrated, to be able to fish in a certain area to pull up an epic boss encounter.
Spot on with the exception of the loot. As soon as a better reward is tacked onto hm the majority of players will feel pushed to do the content they don't like or leave creating a spiral of negativity. More xp, and new achievements should be enough for those who want a challenging mode. The mode itself should be the reward especially if it's implementation takes away already engaging new content releases from the majority of players.Edited by Arrodisia on September 7, 2022 6:36AM3 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I would say that the elseweyr dragon world bosses are more difficult than nSS encounters. And even then, that's just the illusion of difficulty, as the dragons in nSS are still easy but they have more invulnerability phases- making their rewards greater. The only thing that makes the overland content "easy," as I said in a previous response, are the fact that you aren't limited to the number of people you can bring to an encounter, and those people can include the 100k+ parsing speedrunners that people aren't used to grouping with- it's literally a gamble and everyone's experience is different, just like doing dolmens in alik'ir vs doing them in cyrodiil are completely different experiences.
I do think that more time invested should be greater rewards earned, but i've seen this implementation in other games *cough* The Division *cough* and I don't think it would be a good idea to implement it here.
Invulnerability phases and more dynamic encounters for overworld content (i.e. stand on this pressure plate to get rid of the boss's shield, stand on this one to make it stop enrage, fire this corrosive acid pot trebuchet at it to make it take more damage, be in this bubble to not get killed by the aoe) are probably needed, as well as new rewards (even alchemical ingredients to make some of the major/minor potion buffs people have been asking for over the years) would be great.
I would also like to add-in the idea of players needing to buy/make/bring an item or bait to a spot and perform a ritual or sacrifice for the boss to spawn or be lured to a location in the overworld, that would be cool as hell.
Also, fishing? Can we get a rare Sea Sload or Yaghra encounter or something? Perhaps even Sheogorath *** with us and spawning Cthulu ? It would make a lot of people happy, maybe also frustrated, to be able to fish in a certain area to pull up an epic boss encounter.
To clarify, in terms of overland content, I would clearly define group-focused content and solo focused.
I can’t really say that even in veteran instances (theoretically) there are a lot of reasons to rebalance group bosses and events, from my point of view. ESO already provides tons of well-designed content for groups and what you’d see in overland just a toned down version of dungeon and trials encounters since a lot of mechanics have to be nerfed or removed to account for lack of communication between players there and differences of their skill levels. So in that case, I already could take naysayers advice and go do group content for a challenge I desire, because it already objectively better in that regard than what you’d ever see in overland with perfect grading between normal, veteran and hm.
As for solo, the game severely lacking in providing any meaning or engagement to content designed for it (with a small exception of 2 solo arenas). Stories and quests are big part of the game yet you can only experience them in one way, which is extremely easy difficulty toned down so even brand new players would breeze though it without dying. Enemies and bosses are still there but there are no meaningful mechanics, which would make you think and adjust, they more of a decoration rather than obstacle. There isn’t any sense of progression and the feelings after completing it is rather underwhelming.
I’m not sure invulnerability phases is the way to go, not for every boss anyway. They could be fun in some dungeons and trials if they had fun mechanics attached to them so it’s not just dps race, on the other hand I remember deadland portals and certain quest bosses where it only prolong already dull encounters making it boring slog.Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.
Yes definitely. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread by someone. I merely think improvements that benefit the players which the majority can agree on can be more beneficial for an 8 year old game.Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
That's another thing though. Many players don't play with companions and legendaries even when they have the DLC'S. So one player's power and experience isn't the same as another's. Many players keep it simple. Some don't even know companions, antiquities and legendaries are available in the game when they start out and often for quite a while afterwards.
For example, a tank or healer with no legendaries, no champ points, no food, no potions, no companion, etc, They're just starting out at level 5 with no or little gaming experience in let's say Blackwood or High Isle. They stumble upon a world Boss. Another player or 2 attack said boss and the new player thinks ""ok 1-2 other people attacked I'm going to get in on this. " then the boss does his lovely special attack and poof! The new player is dead on the ground and probably without a soul gem. All of this while doing supposedly easy content which they read about here in this thread. They haven't even had a chance to learn much to aid themselves or a group in combat. A nice combat training instance would've given them some of this knowledge.
Yes. We did get primal stats and such but base penetration had been removed. Our skills, gear and champ points were already nerfed multiple times since champ points and abilities were reworked and released. Then we got the OP companions and legendaries which didn't need to be that strong from the beginning. A simple solution for br-Oaken soul from day 1 was to make it less effective or useless in PvP. so it could still be used elsewhere if players chose to use it.
Next point, yes a fair chunk of the thread talks about creating/not creeating an optional harder mode than what we normally have and it discusses multiple other suggestions. However, we've seen HM overland implemented already in other games and we discussed it in this very thread. It's difficult to implement. It's rarely played, buggy and a massive undertaking. We're talking with a team this size minimum 1-2 years just to get it halfway playable and another 1 year or more to get most of the bugs out of it. So we can experience balanced play. Plus, we'd get way less new content and features since they'd be focused on that difficult task.We still have the main story bugged from 3 1/2 months ago. Plus, other older bugs occasionally reoccuring after patches which need to be addressed and I'm being generous with these examples.
I actually like a challenge sometimes, but I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall with little to no new content just to get old overland content done for a couple years while they figure it out the problems it causes especially as a healer. Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode. That's the way games and players are. As the game becomes more familiar things become easier and more fun to do as a group.
There are a lot of other points to make too. However, in the end the majority of players will usually take the easy road to complete content. If it ends up being too annoying and too time consuming, like a RL job, school, and other responsibilities they'll just quit instead of begging for better skills and content nerfs to complete vet mode. The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I do see both sides of the arguments here.
In theory something optional doesn't bother me as long as gear rewards are not stronger gear and we don't lose the 4 major content DLC and expansion updates each year. If gear rewards are increased they would be closer to trial gear, making trials even less popular. Plus, the devs will do more player side hatchet nerfing, as more players don the new gear. instead players should be doing it for the personal challenge, and achievements possibly even some pets, skins or mount fragments. So it doesn't do more harm than good. If less content or lower quality content is released because of a change like this, it'll create larger drops in population than we usually see.
As I stated before, this isn't an easy topic to settle and it's up to the devs to implement what they believe is feasible and matches the larger portion of the player base.
That is the thing though: throwing new players in latest dlcs while not accounting for what it provides seems like rather poor marketing strategy to add more value to it and connected mini dlcs rather than accommodate new players to in game mechanics by small steps.
I remember when I started, I was thrown in Northern Elsweir and almost immediately came across dragon, who annihilated me instantly, though there were others nearby. It didn’t take me long to figure out that this zone isn’t the one I was meant to be so I googled that the best way to start is to port to Auridon, encounter hooded figure and start though base game story in order. That not only ensured that I had easier time learing the game but also gave understanding of overall story direction (who is Abnur Tharn, Cadwell, Sai Sahan, what alliance war mean and so on). It was still on the easier side for me even as a new player but I could kind of deal with that. What makes it boring is the fact that you already encounter no difficulty changes throughout of hundreds of hours of questing in base game and at that point you most likely reaching 400CP, decent understanding of you class, skills and basic gameplay mechanics, having some sets, etc. With all that baggage going through another hundreds of hours of dlc content, which has no significant changes to account to that outside of group-oriented stuff, become dull experience.
No they won’t, if it balanced correctly. Very few if anyone complained that old dlc dungeons and trials become easier with more power creep added to the game, same here. It would be understandable that clearing it for the first time on day 1 would be more challenging than a few years later with FOTM gear after running it multiple times on several alts.Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode.
The main points about its failure made in this thread: it was time-consuming group only content with bad rewards, mediocre story and no alternatives to experience it any other way. Blaming it solely on difficulty is rather misleading.The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
My experiences in this game and others as a raid leader and as a member of other's raid teams tells me. Players who raid will almost always use their highest powered gear, smashing and grabbing through contact. It's definitely more efficient and logical. Once they're too familiar with content many do tire of it. A differnet mode won't make the stories different or more exciting after the 3rd or 4th time it's all yesterday's news no matter what mode it was in. This is why the path ESO is on is generally correct. They offer new content and regularly. Could we use a few more things? Maybe. It's natural for humans to seek out a balance of new and familiar things. It keeps their minds and souls fit. So I'm not for the extra mode or against it. I'm concerned what will happen to the game and it's player base if a hm is implemented instead of the other discussed options, especially since it's gone so wrong in other games.
Gear is important part of character progression so I don’t see anything wrong with it. It would be nice to see the impact of using it outside of vet dungeon and trials. I agree that anything vet related should account for potential power veteran players could potentially achieve. Mind you, most gear locked behind dungeons and trials are not that useful in solo encounters. Something like Pillar/Whorl/Zaan could yield crazy numbers on target dummy yet underperform to Order Wrath/Mother Sorrow/Slimeclaw in vMA. It all depends on how long or short encounters would be.
Being burned out of the content because of numerous runs vs being bored because of its design are two completely different things. Even if it’s only for one time only completion different ways to experience it is a huge improvement.Power creep and overland difficulty balance is an issue in almost every game. According to the devs customer feedback says overland content is challenging enough for the majority. I don't see it as ESO's to go to worst problem by far is my main point for the moment. Game balance is necesary and they're constantly working on it. However, I still see there are other things the devs can deliver which would be more feasible and appreciated by the majority of players at this time.
But what is it the majority of ESO community wants? If anything this game split on different groups, which intersect on some aspects of the game but, spend more time in their corner. Like dungeon, trial, housing, pvp players are just the same minority as questers, roleplayers, traders. For example, looking through your suggestions:
How this would benefit the majority? As far as I can see it’s only impacting crafters and traders.2. widen the scope of jewelry and woodworking crafting
4. make lesser used enchanting and alchemy materials more useful
And this would only benefit those who are really into housing. I do it “casually” a bit and decorated several of my houses yet I couldn’t go over 350 slots, how 700 not enough to decorate even big houses is a mystery for me.6. raise housing slots even if it's just 50 or a 100 slots.
Also only for minority who are into card game. Would this be appreciated by the majority? I seriously doubt that.7. lower the time it takes to complete ToT match dailies done. 40-45 mins and more to get a daily done should give better rewards and xp. A suggestion would be to create a second mode. For example, short mode = 20-25 prestige to win and the dynamic mode would remain at 40 prestige to win.
Only useful for those who are into fashion, pvp and trading.8. add new, more attractive motifs to the AP and telvar vendors
Not even touching anything combat balancing related as I saw more player to tire of them rather be excited about yet another meta shift and more grind.
Not that I even dislike your suggestions, some of them are awesome and could be beneficial for you, me and other group of players they specifically directed. But they are also not benefiting the whole ESO playerbase, only specific parts of it.
Edited by tonyblack on September 7, 2022 8:09AM3 -
HyekAr✭✭✭Hi, in my opinion
1. Mb creating some creature be harder than others?(kind a cheftein between other) Or all creature smarter: I mean using skills? Or improve weapon might?
(This "easynesa" is related to a balance of autolevel system)
2. All quests, option to be repeateble, and showing the rewards inadvance)1 -
Gruumsh1✭✭✭✭How about separate Veteran Difficulty Servers with the ability to migrate the toons you want to them if you so choose...?Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Miiighty Gruumsh!3 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I would say that the elseweyr dragon world bosses are more difficult than nSS encounters. And even then, that's just the illusion of difficulty, as the dragons in nSS are still easy but they have more invulnerability phases- making their rewards greater. The only thing that makes the overland content "easy," as I said in a previous response, are the fact that you aren't limited to the number of people you can bring to an encounter, and those people can include the 100k+ parsing speedrunners that people aren't used to grouping with- it's literally a gamble and everyone's experience is different, just like doing dolmens in alik'ir vs doing them in cyrodiil are completely different experiences.
I do think that more time invested should be greater rewards earned, but i've seen this implementation in other games *cough* The Division *cough* and I don't think it would be a good idea to implement it here.
Invulnerability phases and more dynamic encounters for overworld content (i.e. stand on this pressure plate to get rid of the boss's shield, stand on this one to make it stop enrage, fire this corrosive acid pot trebuchet at it to make it take more damage, be in this bubble to not get killed by the aoe) are probably needed, as well as new rewards (even alchemical ingredients to make some of the major/minor potion buffs people have been asking for over the years) would be great.
I would also like to add-in the idea of players needing to buy/make/bring an item or bait to a spot and perform a ritual or sacrifice for the boss to spawn or be lured to a location in the overworld, that would be cool as hell.
Also, fishing? Can we get a rare Sea Sload or Yaghra encounter or something? Perhaps even Sheogorath *** with us and spawning Cthulu ? It would make a lot of people happy, maybe also frustrated, to be able to fish in a certain area to pull up an epic boss encounter.
To clarify, in terms of overland content, I would clearly define group-focused content and solo focused.
I can’t really say that even in veteran instances (theoretically) there are a lot of reasons to rebalance group bosses and events, from my point of view. ESO already provides tons of well-designed content for groups and what you’d see in overland just a toned down version of dungeon and trials encounters since a lot of mechanics have to be nerfed or removed to account for lack of communication between players there and differences of their skill levels. So in that case, I already could take naysayers advice and go do group content for a challenge I desire, because it already objectively better in that regard than what you’d ever see in overland with perfect grading between normal, veteran and hm.
As for solo, the game severely lacking in providing any meaning or engagement to content designed for it (with a small exception of 2 solo arenas). Stories and quests are big part of the game yet you can only experience them in one way, which is extremely easy difficulty toned down so even brand new players would breeze though it without dying. Enemies and bosses are still there but there are no meaningful mechanics, which would make you think and adjust, they more of a decoration rather than obstacle. There isn’t any sense of progression and the feelings after completing it is rather underwhelming.
I’m not sure invulnerability phases is the way to go, not for every boss anyway. They could be fun in some dungeons and trials if they had fun mechanics attached to them so it’s not just dps race, on the other hand I remember deadland portals and certain quest bosses where it only prolong already dull encounters making it boring slog.Parasaurolophus wrote: »@Arrodisia Jesus, no one left. Just a little "I canceled the subcribe thread" period than usual.
I didn't say no one was left. However, we can't deny the population dropped signficantly. It's noticable.
My post made a few "suggestions" as to how the game can positively be improved upon to turn that around.
All games have similar threads like these and all players opinions and thoughts are welcome.
To be fair, with life starting to return to normal after the pandemic, the drop could have been impacted by that as well.
Yes definitely. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread by someone. I merely think improvements that benefit the players which the majority can agree on can be more beneficial for an 8 year old game.Well. Let 's see here.
The devs announced and released changes to make combat harder from the players side by reducing damage, heals, and such. Then what happened. Players quit because they couldn't cheese everything at the speed of lightning anymore and the hardest vet hm content became annoying to do. Let's add to that. New players are now leveling slower and leaving because they don't see enough progression. They usually don't bother with forums. At best some complain in guild chat before they leave. They don't have champ points, food, gear, cost reduction, buffs, companions, etc. right away.
We have plenty of dynamic combat and vet content in DLC areas and of course in dungeons, trials and PvP. Plus, that content grows nearly every 3 months. The dolmen like events were made harder and the public dungeons were made harder. Players saying combat is uninteresting makes me question if they're even playing this game anymore. The overland "base" game rarely expands. Leave something for the new players to do.
Update 35 changes weren’t targeted at overland difficulty and everything remained exactly the same it was before that. Mobs and solo bosses still die instantly while doing no damage. Even world event and bosses who supposed to represent difficult content there finished in about the same time. There are few if any mechanics and none of them have dps checks to those changes to matter.
The changes are noticeable in trials and especially hm and achievements runs because there everyone need to be aware of mechanics, personal performance and their contribution to the group. Yes, people who interested in that content are now having a harder time. What it does show though, that nobody likes nerfs as it invalidates all the work put in creating and improving a character.
There was nothing added for pvp since Morrowind and it’s in the worst state it ever was with constantly declining population, questionable balancing and unstable performance. 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year are fun, I agree, but that is pure group content and it feels like rather tiny piece in comparison to chapter and zone dlcs which a major focus of the game. And there are no decent options to experience them in any meaningful way as veteran player because they are just way too easy.
I didn't say the changes were targeted at overland. I didn't suggest nerfs. I suggested mild buffs. I also suggested improved AI....
The difference between DLC content and base game content is what I spoke about. I mentioned a well known point. Newer DLC content is generally more difficult than the base game. In fact most players don't play PvP or trials or hm vet since they're already having fun in other parts of the game. That doesn't mean it should be neglected either.
That was my point which was that the nerfs and changes impacted most content and aren't fun. It did impact base game overland content in the way I described it previously. It slowed things down for those who enjoy leveling, farming mobs, dailies, bosses and xp. As a vet player I don't find the DLC areas too hard or too easy.
As far as PvP goes, I rarely have performance issues but they are ocassionally present like most other games.
However, there were some changes which added new things into PvP. One example right off the top of my head is the Volendrung weapon and another is the destruction of bridges and milegates. Oh and wait they buffed the resource enemies as well to add more depth to taking the resources. A couple new areas to host battlegrounds and maybe a new mode might be overdue. Maybe they could add a couple new ones with a 2 dungeon dlc if they wanted to do so.
I originally only "suggested" some positive things which could be done to move ESO back into the direction of maintaining a healthy player base.
Anyway, have fun in the game
I can’t say the difficulty jump in dlc zones are that big, though you have to account that with balancing changes like giving everyone base value of weapon and spell damage + primal stats, adding companions and powerful mystics like oakensoul and pale order ring new zones supposed to be easier, not harder. At least for players who complete them in order and not jump straight from tutorial, even then the difference between 100k vs. 200k bosses are minimal with current level of power creep.
To be fair big chunk of this thread was arguing about what options could be implemented to make overland more engaging for veteran players on top of already functioning “normal” mode. So impact on new and casual players would be minimal.
You too have fun
That's another thing though. Many players don't play with companions and legendaries even when they have the DLC'S. So one player's power and experience isn't the same as another's. Many players keep it simple. Some don't even know companions, antiquities and legendaries are available in the game when they start out and often for quite a while afterwards.
For example, a tank or healer with no legendaries, no champ points, no food, no potions, no companion, etc, They're just starting out at level 5 with no or little gaming experience in let's say Blackwood or High Isle. They stumble upon a world Boss. Another player or 2 attack said boss and the new player thinks ""ok 1-2 other people attacked I'm going to get in on this. " then the boss does his lovely special attack and poof! The new player is dead on the ground and probably without a soul gem. All of this while doing supposedly easy content which they read about here in this thread. They haven't even had a chance to learn much to aid themselves or a group in combat. A nice combat training instance would've given them some of this knowledge.
Yes. We did get primal stats and such but base penetration had been removed. Our skills, gear and champ points were already nerfed multiple times since champ points and abilities were reworked and released. Then we got the OP companions and legendaries which didn't need to be that strong from the beginning. A simple solution for br-Oaken soul from day 1 was to make it less effective or useless in PvP. so it could still be used elsewhere if players chose to use it.
Next point, yes a fair chunk of the thread talks about creating/not creeating an optional harder mode than what we normally have and it discusses multiple other suggestions. However, we've seen HM overland implemented already in other games and we discussed it in this very thread. It's difficult to implement. It's rarely played, buggy and a massive undertaking. We're talking with a team this size minimum 1-2 years just to get it halfway playable and another 1 year or more to get most of the bugs out of it. So we can experience balanced play. Plus, we'd get way less new content and features since they'd be focused on that difficult task.We still have the main story bugged from 3 1/2 months ago. Plus, other older bugs occasionally reoccuring after patches which need to be addressed and I'm being generous with these examples.
I actually like a challenge sometimes, but I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall with little to no new content just to get old overland content done for a couple years while they figure it out the problems it causes especially as a healer. Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode. That's the way games and players are. As the game becomes more familiar things become easier and more fun to do as a group.
There are a lot of other points to make too. However, in the end the majority of players will usually take the easy road to complete content. If it ends up being too annoying and too time consuming, like a RL job, school, and other responsibilities they'll just quit instead of begging for better skills and content nerfs to complete vet mode. The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
I do see both sides of the arguments here.
In theory something optional doesn't bother me as long as gear rewards are not stronger gear and we don't lose the 4 major content DLC and expansion updates each year. If gear rewards are increased they would be closer to trial gear, making trials even less popular. Plus, the devs will do more player side hatchet nerfing, as more players don the new gear. instead players should be doing it for the personal challenge, and achievements possibly even some pets, skins or mount fragments. So it doesn't do more harm than good. If less content or lower quality content is released because of a change like this, it'll create larger drops in population than we usually see.
As I stated before, this isn't an easy topic to settle and it's up to the devs to implement what they believe is feasible and matches the larger portion of the player base.
That is the thing though: throwing new players in latest dlcs while not accounting for what it provides seems like rather poor marketing strategy to add more value to it and connected mini dlcs rather than accommodate new players to in game mechanics by small steps.
I remember when I started, I was thrown in Northern Elsweir and almost immediately came across dragon, who annihilated me instantly, though there were others nearby. It didn’t take me long to figure out that this zone isn’t the one I was meant to be so I googled that the best way to start is to port to Auridon, encounter hooded figure and start though base game story in order. That not only ensured that I had easier time learing the game but also gave understanding of overall story direction (who is Abnur Tharn, Cadwell, Sai Sahan, what alliance war mean and so on). It was still on the easier side for me even as a new player but I could kind of deal with that. What makes it boring is the fact that you already encounter no difficulty changes throughout of hundreds of hours of questing in base game and at that point you most likely reaching 400CP, decent understanding of you class, skills and basic gameplay mechanics, having some sets, etc. With all that baggage going through another hundreds of hours of dlc content, which has no significant changes to account to that outside of group-oriented stuff, become dull experience.
No they won’t, if it balanced correctly. Very few if anyone complained that old dlc dungeons and trials become easier with more power creep added to the game, same here. It would be understandable that clearing it for the first time on day 1 would be more challenging than a few years later with FOTM gear after running it multiple times on several alts.Then what? Players will get used to vet mode and say that's too easy as well and ask for another mode.
The main points about its failure made in this thread: it was time-consuming group only content with bad rewards, mediocre story and no alternatives to experience it any other way. Blaming it solely on difficulty is rather misleading.The devs keep having flashbacks of the original craglorn release, because it's showed them something important about threads like this. 5-6 people bumping each other's posts and keeping a thread going doesn't mean everyone wants that particular change. Craglorn was a response to add more difficult content. The majority of players weren't happy about it's release and it was nerfed to become more fun and engaging for the majority.
My experiences in this game and others as a raid leader and as a member of other's raid teams tells me. Players who raid will almost always use their highest powered gear, smashing and grabbing through contact. It's definitely more efficient and logical. Once they're too familiar with content many do tire of it. A differnet mode won't make the stories different or more exciting after the 3rd or 4th time it's all yesterday's news no matter what mode it was in. This is why the path ESO is on is generally correct. They offer new content and regularly. Could we use a few more things? Maybe. It's natural for humans to seek out a balance of new and familiar things. It keeps their minds and souls fit. So I'm not for the extra mode or against it. I'm concerned what will happen to the game and it's player base if a hm is implemented instead of the other discussed options, especially since it's gone so wrong in other games.
Gear is important part of character progression so I don’t see anything wrong with it. It would be nice to see the impact of using it outside of vet dungeon and trials. I agree that anything vet related should account for potential power veteran players could potentially achieve. Mind you, most gear locked behind dungeons and trials are not that useful in solo encounters. Something like Pillar/Whorl/Zaan could yield crazy numbers on target dummy yet underperform to Order Wrath/Mother Sorrow/Slimeclaw in vMA. It all depends on how long or short encounters would be.
Being burned out of the content because of numerous runs vs being bored because of its design are two completely different things. Even if it’s only for one time only completion different ways to experience it is a huge improvement.Power creep and overland difficulty balance is an issue in almost every game. According to the devs customer feedback says overland content is challenging enough for the majority. I don't see it as ESO's to go to worst problem by far is my main point for the moment. Game balance is necesary and they're constantly working on it. However, I still see there are other things the devs can deliver which would be more feasible and appreciated by the majority of players at this time.
But what is it the majority of ESO community wants? If anything this game split on different groups, which intersect on some aspects of the game but, spend more time in their corner. Like dungeon, trial, housing, pvp players are just the same minority as questers, roleplayers, traders. For example, looking through your suggestions:
How this would benefit the majority? As far as I can see it’s only impacting crafters and traders.2. widen the scope of jewelry and woodworking crafting
4. make lesser used enchanting and alchemy materials more useful
And this would only benefit those who are really into housing. I do it “casually” a bit and decorated several of my houses yet I couldn’t go over 350 slots, how 700 not enough to decorate even big houses is a mystery for me.6. raise housing slots even if it's just 50 or a 100 slots.
Also only for minority who are into card game. Would this be appreciated by the majority? I seriously doubt that.7. lower the time it takes to complete ToT match dailies done. 40-45 mins and more to get a daily done should give better rewards and xp. A suggestion would be to create a second mode. For example, short mode = 20-25 prestige to win and the dynamic mode would remain at 40 prestige to win.
Only useful for those who are into fashion, pvp and trading.8. add new, more attractive motifs to the AP and telvar vendors
Not even touching anything combat balancing related as I saw more player to tire of them rather be excited about yet another meta shift and more grind.
Not that I even dislike your suggestions, some of them are awesome and could be beneficial for you, me and other group of players they specifically directed. But they are also not benefiting the whole ESO playerbase, only specific parts of it.
I'm not saying these things must be done. I was suggesting it as a package deal which the devs could modify to impliment what players like and leave out the ones less appealing. The examples were mostly a collection of popular suggestions from the forum feedback which I pulled together. I only listed them so players would be able to read it all better instead of a couple huge lumps of paragraphs. If multiples of them were implemented it would hit higher numbers of happy players.
Anyway, You asked how widening the scope of Jewelry and enchanting crafting would benefit the majority. We'd get new gear item slot/slots which would be slottable/wearable by the entire population no matter what type of content they do. They could be either cosmetic or usable stat slots or both. The rest would be for crafters, housing, and traders.
Changing enchantmentsand alchemy ingredients to make the lesser used ones more useful (if properly balanced) would add a wider variety to current slottable enchantments as well as current potions/poisons available. Instead of thje same "go to" enchantments we might have a possibility to expand for more utility, damage, mitigation, etc... and in addition maybe even possibily some fun, cosmetic potions that make us look silly or powerful and seasonal potions. One of many examples off the top of my head the New life's festival could have the "Lava Foot Racer potion " or whatever snazzy name fits. This one would be cosmetic. Basically. sprinting causes you to leave behind lava tracks for 60 mins.
We have so many creative players in this forum. I'm sure they can think of some good potions too.
Expanding woodworking would give everyone more options as to which weapon they'd like to play.
Edited by Arrodisia on September 9, 2022 11:51AM0 -
Cireous✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Problem 1 - no fear of death
The problem with this is when a "True" MMO player comes and says they have played games like Everquest, Tibia, Asheron's Call or Runescape, where if you died in some of those games you lost Experience, Levels, Skills points, Equipment, gold, your inventory & had to travel back to the area where you died.
How can a game be exciting or channeling, if when the mob kills you, you lose nothing at all. They will argue that just that alone makes every Overland Content Tedious and too easy and not fun at all, as you fear nothing.
Even if the overland mobs had Trial level Mechanics it's truly a snooze fest, as you can die as many times as you like and it does not matter at all.
So we first have to agree that just that alone is the first premise we are not tackling here at all. Over 100 pages of discussion and no one is talking about that.
I mentioned it.
I think it's important. There really is NO RISK in the risk vs. reward of a more challenging Overland without there being any consequences at all for dying. I don't think we should necessarily lose items, but I would like to at least lose a little time. I think there should be an option for us to NOT resurrect directly where our dead bodies lay, however they want to implement that. Obviously there is already the option to resurrect at a Wayshrine, instead, but I'd rather the prompt to resurrect where you are to be eliminated entirely (optionally), because it's too hard to not just 'take the easy road' and 'choose to get this done faster' in the heat of the moment.
This was one of my points on page 3:- Dying needs to matter or we still have nothing to lose by failing. There should be limitations on fast travel and resurrection. I like how the new game (that shall not be named) is handling this. Putting down a little camp to resurrect at feels much like a Skyrim save file. If you forget to put the camp down and you die, it's as if you have lost your progress and are forced to start over. Soulgem usage and Wayshrine travel would have to also be limited in some fashion for this to work
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FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »Elden Ring handled it reasonably well I think. Even in NG+ overland mobs can still kill you. You can probably still one-shot many, but they can kill you as well. At the end of June it was near 17M copies sold. I think its also reasonable to assume that there is indeed a market for it.
Same arguments a long time later in this thread.
Some of us do not want to have to travel overland in fear of being nuked by overland mobs. I would guess that more players fall in this camp than in those who want to live on the edge in overland.
Then I wouldn't go into the veteran instance. See? Choice. Its perfect.
Not really. Lots of wasted dev time if only a few use it.PC
PS4/PS52 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Problem 1 - no fear of death
The problem with this is when a "True" MMO player comes and says they have played games like Everquest, Tibia, Asheron's Call or Runescape, where if you died in some of those games you lost Experience, Levels, Skills points, Equipment, gold, your inventory & had to travel back to the area where you died.
How can a game be exciting or channeling, if when the mob kills you, you lose nothing at all. They will argue that just that alone makes every Overland Content Tedious and too easy and not fun at all, as you fear nothing.
Even if the overland mobs had Trial level Mechanics it's truly a snooze fest, as you can die as many times as you like and it does not matter at all.
So we first have to agree that just that alone is the first premise we are not tackling here at all. Over 100 pages of discussion and no one is talking about that.
I mentioned it.
I think it's important. There really is NO RISK in the risk vs. reward of a more challenging Overland without there being any consequences at all for dying. I don't think we should necessarily lose items, but I would like to at least lose a little time. I think there should be an option for us to NOT resurrect directly where our dead bodies lay, however they want to implement that. Obviously there is already the option to resurrect at a Wayshrine, instead, but I'd rather the prompt to resurrect where you are to be eliminated entirely (optionally), because it's too hard to not just 'take the easy road' and 'choose to get this done faster' in the heat of the moment.
This was one of my points on page 3:- Dying needs to matter or we still have nothing to lose by failing. There should be limitations on fast travel and resurrection. I like how the new game (that shall not be named) is handling this. Putting down a little camp to resurrect at feels much like a Skyrim save file. If you forget to put the camp down and you die, it's as if you have lost your progress and are forced to start over. Soulgem usage and Wayshrine travel would have to also be limited in some fashion for this to work
Bring back having to run back to your corpse from the respawn point! That worked so well in the past, right?
Don't you realize the concept went out of games for a reason? It sounds great in principle, but works out lousy.PC
PS4/PS52