State of the game's overland

Vhozek

Nobody is complaining about the mob difficulty in the other game and it is much much harder than ESO mobs on top of having to manage ammunition for some weapons and having to aim with every single spell.
ESO has companions and many other things to make fights "accessible" in PvE. I'm sure you can deal with better mobs.

jle30303

There's no point in gimping yourself unless there is an extra reward for taking on the challenge.

And if there's an extra reward for taking on the challenge, next thing you know, people will be complaining about that too. Whether it's people at the lower level wanting more, or people at the higher level saying that people at the lower level should have less...

Grandchamp1989

Veteran Overland? Yes please.

drsalvation

jle30303 wrote: »

There's no point in gimping yourself unless there is an extra reward for taking on the challenge.

And if there's an extra reward for taking on the challenge, next thing you know, people will be complaining about that too. Whether it's people at the lower level wanting more, or people at the higher level saying that people at the lower level should have less...

my problem is that the gear you grind for in hard dungeons only works for hard dungeons, is there really a point to that? The gear you grind for in PvP only works in PvP, and god I hate PvP.
And let's be honest, the difficulty in overland is insultingly easy, I'm not asking for trial level difficulty, vanilla veteran dungeon maybe. As I've said, the story is 80% of the game's content, why should the veteran stuff be sidelined with unrelated world bosses? Why does the real challenge come from a dungeon you can finish in 40 minutes, meanwhile you can spit and laugh in the face of molag bal as you defeat his champions completely naked?

The benefits of your hard work grinding for gear are only useful in more dungeons, but remember that dungeons are more like farms where you get the gear you wanted. It's pointless, to enjoy the rest of the 80% of the game you don't need to bother with any of the veteran content. And I get that people really DON'T want to bother with the veteran content to enjoy the majority of the game, but in our case, fun only lasts 40 minutes in a single dungeon quest, after that, it's just farming.

So once you've farmed your gear, what's the point? You don't need it for story mode, you'll just end up using that gear to farm for other types of gear.
Without a veteran story mode (hell, not even overland, the whole world would be too much to ask, just a veteran story mode! The vanilla story is already a solo instance anyway) then there's no point to just farming dungeons just to farm other dungeons just to farm some trials just to keep farming trials.

Caroloces

I agree with the op. I've been with the game since Beta, and I still love it, but the thrill and danger of overland content has vanished! I remember the tension and fear of facing Dosha in that early Fighter's Guild questline, and the final victory after many attempts led to a real feeling of accomplishment. Right now, I lead my characters through the main story in each zone to get the skill points, and I use my imagination and the lore to sustain my interest.

I disagree with the op on the implementation of a Veteran's level for overland content (though I do think this solution would be better than the status quo). It replicates the original problem by creating a static and fixed mode, that in itself becomes boring and repetitive. I guess my dream solution (and I have no way of knowing if this is remotely possible) is to make health levels of the overland antagonists somehow linked to the level of the player. So, High Kinlady Estre and her Veiled Heritance minions in Auridon would have elevated health levels that would be gauged by the accumulated XP of the player. And this could be broadly gauged in increments, so perhaps the antagonist health levels would remain the same for the first 50 levels, and then rise as the player accumulated CP points.

I know that people will state the obvious: What if you're in a group with different leveled players? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd like to believe that there must be some way to breathe new life into these zone stories. They are so good that it seems a bit sad that they lose the savor of suspense and danger to veteran players.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Elsonso wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month.

Mainly, I think they keep asking about it because it hasn't sunk in yet that ZOS is not really interested in overland veteran.

or it hasnt sunk in to ZOS that there are many players really interested in overland veteran.

drsalvation

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Go read through all 40 pages. More than 1/2 of which are direct quotes from Matt Firor about it not happening, 1/4th of the pages about why technically and community wise it’s a poor idea, and the last 1/4 being individuals saying “Well who says these people are in the know? I think it’s a great idea and let’s ignore all evidence and arguments to the contrary.”

reading it now.
I do see a lot of people asking for better rewards in vet overland. I think there shouldn't be any extra rewards, just challenge, nothing else, that way they can avoid FOMO.

But whatever, I'm probably just beating on a dead horse at this point, it seems to me like wasted potential on this game, it's bad enough that tanking is pretty useless nowadays, the core content of this game is also pretty meh, and without the challenge, for end-game players, the point of farming for better gear seems rather redundant and pointless.

Could we at least agree to add more health to bosses? Even if it's not added challenge, just enough health so that it doesn't feel like you're on a theme park waiting for your turn to kill the same boss another player killed just a few seconds ago? Fighting a boss while stepping on his corpse just to leave another corpse within 5 seconds isn't what I'd call engaging.

One Tamriel came about out of necessity. The game was dying of extreme measures weren’t taken. The VR/CP systems were originally designed in tandem with initial game development but didn’t make it in time. By the time it started rolling out the issues of zones with varying difficulty/hard instances/tough combat became apparent.

Yes you had those that enjoyed it but the vast majority of players just stopped. And to this day Matt and the other developers have toyed with adding more difficult overland encounters. Harder world bosses, Harrowstorms, dragons, more mechanics in story mode, etc.

However there was clear evidence of engagement falloff for players. So as Matt said difficulty was put into World Bosses, trials, dungeons, etc.

The overland is for everyone to enjoy with simple and sometimes engaging stories. I think all of us enjoyed a number of them. Stibbons, Heem-Jas, The Traveling Acting Troupe out of Summerset. Difficulty added isn’t needed.

Again, my problem is that there's nothing pushing your engagement to those completely sidelined and compeltely optional encounters.
The main motivation of any player in this game right now is just to improve their character builds. People skip the story because they don't care about it, they just speedrun it to get the skill points. And why would they care? They can finish it without needing any specific gear/builds.
The story doesn't force you to finish off the difficult world bosses. The only thing for hardcore players are dungeons and trials, and as I've stated before, it's nice the first time you go through them, but after that, they simply become gear farms. And the only reason you'd need to farm for that gear is so you can go do other dungeons that will eventually turn to gear farms. You'll play the same dungeons over and over again, it's repetitive and boring. You only play the game's story content once, and it's completely unengaging because of how insultingly easy the so-called fearful bosses are.
Story is the vast majority of the game's content, and if you don't need to test your skills with your build, then what's the point of farming for stronger sets?

Paulytnz

drsalvation wrote: »

Yeah, I kinda see why it's something that will never happen in that sense.
I still think bosses should hit harder and have more HP, they're going to be surrounded by players anyway, so why not?
I'm just not a big fan of "it's my turn to kill the bad guy that you just killed a few seconds ago" concept.

If you are meaning World Bosses I get what you are saying. The sad thing here is until you are Max level the game scales you up for the content. After that nothing else really changes.

In GW2 all world bosses actually scale to how many players are near enough to it to consider them in that fight. If this game followed that system you would not see world bosses during events die literally in 2 seconds. You would see bigger HP pools, more damage and possibly more mechanics (more adds etc).

If they could just give us that for now, I would be happy.

Parasaurolophus

I have a completely different opinion. Yes, I also do not like that the game has such a trivial and boring overland. However, those "casual" players that we usually talk about are not at all the players for whom the overland was actually created. Rich said that most of the players play for no more than 6 weeks. 6 weeks! And then I remembered one interesting thing that this is happening in the gaming industry as a whole. Take a look at other games. For any. Open any popular game on Steam and take a look at the achievements. And you will see that no more than 20% of the players complete these games. This applies to any content, not just main quests. You can also see what percentage of players got achievements in eso on PS (I don’t know if there is such an opportunity on Xbox). It's not about difficult. Most of the players just buy this game, play it for a couple of weeks, maybe leave some extra money. And then, maybe it will go back to the next dlc. This is why overland content is designed for people who play little. If Craglorn's main problem was difficulty, then why not just nerf it while continuing to develop adventure zones with lots of different content? The reason is not that 99% of the players will not be able to complete it, but they just will not see it. They will leave games before they can play at least half of the content. Therefore, ZoS has optimized the development. But the game still fails to keep players from using content. The population of the location is rapidly declining after the release and ZoS has to constantly and artificially "inflate" the population. Motives that are realized a couple of months after the release. And events every two weeks.
Other rules are also designed for these players:
-Short main quest.
-Lots of short side quests, not quest chains like it was in Morrowind.
-The whole system "stroy of the year", where we are directly told that "a princess in another castle"
I don't know if ZoS can actually create interesting and replayable overland content that can keep active players for at least a few weeks. Or did ZoS just take this easy route, attracting a lot of new but fickle players? But it is obvious that they are following this path.
I think I have already come to terms with the fact that the overland ends for me in a few days and is not impressive. But I wouldn't be so upset if zos gave more love to high-end content. It is difficult to find players for 6 keys lately. And the fact that U32 was left without a new trial or arena in general is a slap in the face from the developers.

matterandstuff

...it's that time of the week again!

...and, just like the last fifteen weekly threads, nah - it's a lot of development time for something that ZOS know damned well would be unpopular with most players and, to the extent that it was used at all, negatively impact the main game.

Or, like I more facetiously described it a few threads ago "Hey ZOS, how would you like to set a ton of money on fire? I know, sounds amazing, right? You'll totally do it! Wait, you're not interested in setting a ton of money on fire? How could this possibly be the case? This is an outrage!"

Parasaurolophus

matterandstuff wrote: »

...it's that time of the week again!

...and, just like the last fifteen weekly threads, nah - it's a lot of development time for something that ZOS know damned well would be unpopular with most players and, to the extent that it was used at all, negatively impact the main game.

Or, like I more facetiously described it a few threads ago "Hey ZOS, how would you like to set a ton of money on fire? I know, sounds amazing, right? You'll totally do it! Wait, you're not interested in setting a ton of money on fire? How could this possibly be the case? This is an outrage!"

Yes, there were a lot of threads and every one was closed, because instead of discussing why this idea is good or bad, players started arguing about the finances of ZoS.
The one thing that players took away from these threads is that counting money and inventing statistics based on their own opinions is not the best.

Amottica

drsalvation wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I am a relatively new player to ESO, but experienced in MMOs from being casual to raising the most challenging level in games, though pretty much casual these days. I think the questing is just fine as it lets me focus on the most important aspect, the actual story telling.

It seems Zenimax made a conscious choice based on actual player behavior to make questing easier and make WBs more challenging. I found the boss that’s part of the new event a nice challenge before I found out it was designed as a group boss. So there are fights available for us that can handle a challenge

So it’s great we can offer out oppinions on what we think of aspects of the game. However, Zenimax seems to see the current design as a great success as they have started the game has never been more successful that it has been since they went to this style.

Regards.

I appreciate the well-thought reply and I can see the logic behind it.
My problem is that about 80% of the game's content IS story content, PvP hasn't changed, trials and dungeons are nice but they're a single-run you can finish in only 1 day.
Once you reach CP 160, you've reached the end-game, dungeons and trials will feel repetitive, and if you want to play story mode, the overall lack of challenge becomes annoying to a point where the story falls short, because the enemies you're supposed to be afraid of can quickly die before they even finish their dialogues.
The only incentive for hard and challenging content are dungeons and trials, which again, you can finish in an hour.

Again, the problem with the story is that it tries to sell you these awful villains, but they're no real challenge to end-game players, there are quests everywhere and they become tedious because you don't get challenged at all. I want to get immersed in the story but when I have to hold back and attack once every 3 seconds to make the fight feel more intense, it just falls apart and there's no satisfaction nor sense of accomplishment.

And again, trials and dungeons are challenging, but when you finish them in a single run, there's really nothing engaging about them the second time you do them, and then the third, it just becomes a gear farm.

But the reality is Zenimax has said they saw that the data of how the huge majority of players actually played the game was that they were not interested in calling quest fights which is what lead to designing overland to be easier but have more challenging world bosses for those interested in finding some challenge in overland. Heck. I have soloed the new boss and some of the DLC world bosses and they are a nice challenge. They also strongly indicate they were not interested in creating an optional difficulty either, as it was not that simple (their words).

Anyhow, Zenimax also stated clearly that that game has never been more popular than it is now. What that means is the business people (the ones that make the final decision on things like this) will not permit veering from what has made the game so successful. So while players can discuss how they would like things or suggest Zenimax is not correct it seems it will require someone to present a solid business case proving that Zenimax's current data is incorrect and that they will make significantly more revenue to make the game as you want it then I doubt this conversation will make it into the planning meetings in Maryland. That would be very difficult for most of us, probably all of us, to do.

I am not arguing for or against your opinion on the state of the game but merely pointing out that Zenimax has spoken to this and why they said we should not expect this to change.

BTW, trials and dungeons are designed to run multiple times. Since you brought up the trials, I do sincerely ask, have you cleared all the trials on vet HM, including the latest? Have you cleared all the arenas on veteran difficulty?

Adremal

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Well anything on normal delve boss level can be melted by an ultimate even by an undergeared character assuming it's unscripted, all you have to do is drop a meteor or elemental rage or something on it. As to how much, that'd be difficult, granted, but we already have a "vet zone" of sorts (Craglorn) and that level of "vet" would be an acceptable compromise I think. I mean I melt through it now but I remember getting my ass kicked when I first got there.

@trackdemon5512 Harrowstorms are still ran by lot of people and I bet they have more fun than with Dolmens, less so than when they launched because they're not exactly difficult given a bit of gear and experience (or just sheer numbers) but I remember enjoying them when they came out and people died a lot on them, myself included (did they nerf them? It feels like they've been nerfed, I don't get oneshotted anymore even on the neglected alts, I don't really pay much attention to that kind of thing).

Vhozek wrote: »

Nobody is complaining about the mob difficulty in the other game and it is much much harder than ESO mobs on top of having to manage ammunition for some weapons and having to aim with every single spell.
ESO has companions and many other things to make fights "accessible" in PvE. I'm sure you can deal with better mobs.

[snip] Anyhow, apples and oranges, you can't really compare the two combat systems, and while NW has harder overland because it's a Souls-wannabe MMO and you have to dodge and roll or block, many do indeed find the overland too difficult. Or rather, they find it mind-numbingly easy at the beginning and too hard once they hit the 50+ zones because mobs get more attack patterns and outlevel you. They're still easy and stupidly predictable if you're used to Souls-like games and will have no issues soloing Malevolence and even Myrkgard if you stay away from the big ones, but that's the 0,5% of players at most. The rest whine on the forums about getting sent to quests that are marked as solo and aren't soloable by the average player.

[edited for baiting]

Kiralyn2000

Adremal wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Well anything on normal delve boss level can be melted by an ultimate even by an undergeared character assuming it's unscripted, all you have to do is drop a meteor or elemental rage or something on it.

Hmm, mine certainly don't "melt" delve bosses. (My three 'main' characters; Stamblade - Soul Tether; Stamden - bear; Magplar - hmm, Solar Disturbance, maybe? Should probably revisit Soul Tether, I grabbed it because I was desperate for any self-healing back when Vigor needed PvP to get.)

Kamatsu

drsalvation wrote: »

Again, my problem is that there's nothing pushing your engagement to those completely sidelined and compeltely optional encounters.
The main motivation of any player in this game right now is just to improve their character builds. People skip the story because they don't care about it, they just speedrun it to get the skill points. And why would they care? They can finish it without needing any specific gear/builds.
<snip>
Story is the vast majority of the game's content, and if you don't need to test your skills with your build, then what's the point of farming for stronger sets?

My issue here is you only speak for yourself, and those of your mindset. There are many, many players who play the game for the story, for the lore, etc and aren't just purely interested in min/max'ing and trying to eek out the most dps they can from a build/gear/etc.

This is what I call 'associative bias' - as likely the people you play with, hang around with, etc are all of the same mind set - people who aren't that interested in the story due to how 'easy' it is.... and thus assume that everyone must think/play the same. Here's the thing - people like you are the vast minority of MMO playerbase. How do I know? History has proven it.

- in WoW, the WoW dev's admitted that as of BC only 6-7% of the playerbase had ever entered a raid. An MMO where the main focus was on it's raiding scene... yet couldn't even manage to get even 10% of it's players into raids.

- GW2 changed it's base game to be more difficult and engaging with it's 1st expansion, and proceeded to have it's biggest ever 6-month loss of revenue ever as players fled the game in droves. They suffered a 66-67% loss in revenue due to the vast majority of it's playerbase not being interested in harder/more-engaging overworld combat.

---

I'll tell you OP, I was 100% with you when reading your post when you talked about ESO implementing an optional veteran solo mode for quest's. I 100% agree that it is something that ZOS should offer for players like you - an optional mode for the solo quest fights where mobs/bosses have better skills, maybe even unique mechanics.

That is something that I feel ZOS might be willing to do - even though it would increase dev cost due to having to code & test it... it's of a limited nature, and less likely to heavily negatively effect anything else.

I've said it multiple times in these threads where they come up - you need to remember ZOS is a business, and thus you need to make a business case for them to spend money on what you're after. Trying to push for a full veteran overland mode is not going to go anywhere... there is no business case for it, all ZOS can see from their own stats and from other MMO's... that the ppl calling for this are in the vast minority, and that taking money away from the majority to cater to the minority is only going to lower their profit / cause a loss.

So instead of constantly beating your head against a brick wall, why not instead push for a smaller change that has a greater chance of actually happening - ie more difficult optional solo quest's. ZOS is likely more willing to do that as it would cost less, which means it'll take less dev time & resources away from what makes ZOS the most... thus they will lose less money doing so, which means they would be more willing to actually do so to try and offer something to the "we want harder quest's' people.

ZOS have already indicated they have no interest in doing the harder overland thing again, due to metrics showing low interest in it. So constantly pushing for exactly that... is pointless. I've seen those pushing for this say there are more that want this that we assume - what I'm suggesting is a perfect way to prove it. Push for ZOS to implement an optional harder solo quest instant thing in one of their expansions.... and then everyone who wants harder overland better use that optional mode. If there really is as big a demand for optional harder fights as you all claim, the metrics will show it... and thus if the metrics back you up, then ZOS will be more likely to do more because they will see less loss of revenue due to demand for it.

trackdemon5512

Adremal wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Well anything on normal delve boss level can be melted by an ultimate even by an undergeared character assuming it's unscripted, all you have to do is drop a meteor or elemental rage or something on it. As to how much, that'd be difficult, granted, but we already have a "vet zone" of sorts (Craglorn) and that level of "vet" would be an acceptable compromise I think. I mean I melt through it now but I remember getting my ass kicked when I first got there.

@trackdemon5512 Harrowstorms are still ran by lot of people and I bet they have more fun than with Dolmens, less so than when they launched because they're not exactly difficult given a bit of gear and experience (or just sheer numbers) but I remember enjoying them when they came out and people died a lot on them, myself included (did they nerf them? It feels like they've been nerfed, I don't get oneshotted anymore even on the neglected alts, I don't really pay much attention to that kind of thing).

Vhozek wrote: »

Nobody is complaining about the mob difficulty in the other game and it is much much harder than ESO mobs on top of having to manage ammunition for some weapons and having to aim with every single spell.
ESO has companions and many other things to make fights "accessible" in PvE. I'm sure you can deal with better mobs.

[snip] Anyhow, apples and oranges, you can't really compare the two combat systems, and while NW has harder overland because it's a Souls-wannabe MMO and you have to dodge and roll or block, many do indeed find the overland too difficult. Or rather, they find it mind-numbingly easy at the beginning and too hard once they hit the 50+ zones because mobs get more attack patterns and outlevel you. They're still easy and stupidly predictable if you're used to Souls-like games and will have no issues soloing Malevolence and even Myrkgard if you stay away from the big ones, but that's the 0,5% of players at most. The rest whine on the forums about getting sent to quests that are marked as solo and aren't soloable by the average player.

No one is doing Harrowstorms now. No one. The same one will last for hours in a single instance. You can never say the same about a dolmen or a geyser. Even dragons in Southern Elsweyr go faster. Players may like the initial difficulty but they shun it in the long run. And that’s the problem ZOS contends with. People don’t want to engage in the long run. When that happens the game starts to die.

[edited to remove quote]

Elsonso

Kamatsu wrote: »

I'll tell you OP, I was 100% with you when reading your post when you talked about ESO implementing an optional veteran solo mode for quest's. I 100% agree that it is something that ZOS should offer for players like you - an optional mode for the solo quest fights where mobs/bosses have better skills, maybe even unique mechanics.

That is something that I feel ZOS might be willing to do - even though it would increase dev cost due to having to code & test it... it's of a limited nature, and less likely to heavily negatively effect anything else.

My feeling is that this is one of those things that sound great, at least on forum paper, but would not be like that in reality. I'm not exactly sure where people get the idea that an "option" is somehow the answer to all the problems that exist. As I think about all the problems that can arise, an option may actually be among the worst ways to do it.

Adremal

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Well anything on normal delve boss level can be melted by an ultimate even by an undergeared character assuming it's unscripted, all you have to do is drop a meteor or elemental rage or something on it.

Hmm, mine certainly don't "melt" delve bosses. (My three 'main' characters; Stamblade - Soul Tether; Stamden - bear; Magplar - hmm, Solar Disturbance, maybe? Should probably revisit Soul Tether, I grabbed it because I was desperate for any self-healing back when Vigor needed PvP to get.)

Solar Prison and Soul Tether should do at least half the job, with the burst doing the rest. I'd be shocked if any regular delve boss would be able to survive a whatever Nova morph + execute, same for whatever bursty NB opener/Tether/execute. The bear is constant passive DPS with a stun, tried Toxic Barrage? That's a literal one-click-kill. As is Elemental Rage. The point is, I refuse to believe anyone has trouble vaporising normal delve bosses, let alone killing them. Otherwise I wouldn't have had to wait for respawns and be ready to cast whatever OHK skill while doing the Undaunted dailies to level up the companions' undaunted lines. And even so I had several cases of a boss spawning, boom, boss dead. And a lot of fun waiting for it to respawn, praying that someone who didn't complete the delve yet would come and force it to spawn off-timer.

Kiralyn2000

Adremal wrote: »

Solar Prison and Soul Tether should do at least half the job, with the burst doing the rest. I'd be shocked if any regular delve boss would be able to survive a whatever Nova morph + execute, same for whatever bursty NB opener/Tether/execute. The bear is constant passive DPS with a stun, tried Toxic Barrage? That's a literal one-click-kill. As is Elemental Rage. The point is, I refuse to believe anyone has trouble vaporising normal delve bosses, let alone killing them.

Hmm. I suppose it may vary by who you play with. Just doing random delve runs during the last couple events, even with other people there, delve bosses don't "vaporize".

Only time I've seen stuff like that is during zone double-drop events, where you have 12+ people camping the spawn.

The usual people I run across working their way through delves, seem at a similar level to me - they aren't OHK'ing the regular hallway mobs, either. Takes a few shots.

And even so I had several cases of a boss spawning, boom, boss dead.

Like I said, outside of cases where the boss room was literally filled with more players than could get loot, I've literally never seen that. From me or anyone else.

cptqrk

Congratulations on making it over 2 weeks since this dead horse was dragged from it's grave and beaten again....

So, since these threads are a copy/paste of the "game is going to die without harder over world" I'll just copy/paste what I said in the last one.

Here goes:

Lots of people want a more difficult over world!

(Good for you, it has been said, and conveniently glossed over or all out ignored that the developers have said no they do not think that it would be in the best interest of the game based on internal figures)

Make it a slider/toggle! That way it won't affect other people playing!

(Again, conveniently glossed over or all out ignored that the developers have said they will not split the server population)

It would be super easy! Just make a toggle! Or a slider! It doesn't take any developer time to make all the over world mobs harder!

(Even as a non programmer, you know this is not as simple as you are presenting it to be)

No, not just buff the mob damage and HP! Make them do stuff! It's super easy! Should take no development time at all!

(Again, not that simple. New animations, new skills, new ways to balance said skills is not easy. Side note: what is easy mode for you may be hard mode for others, and what is hard mode for you may be baby's first MMO to others. How do you 'satisfy' all? You do what ZOS has done. Put harder content away behind dungeons, world bosses, and trails, regular and veteran modes)

Servers already 'split' the server population! Having a totally separate hard mode would make it so they don't have to deal with the harder stuff!

(Please, the server instancing/mirroring/sharding what ever you want to call it, is a result of how large MMOs keep the servers stable. They are dynamic and ebb and flow via server population. A totally separate hard mode would remove the hard mode players from the regular ebb and flow and will split the server population, thus leading us to the next point)

Come on guys! There wont be enough people who want a more difficult over world that it would affect the general over world population.

(So what is it? ZOS should cater to this idea because soo many people want it, but it's not enough people to want it to actually change the server population? Pick one, please)

I think I know more about the financial and analytical numbers behind ESO than the developers do!

(Right, you know all about how much money ZOS is making. You have more knowledge of what content is getting played than ZOS does. You have access to all the data, and all the other information that you would need to make a decision about what is best for the game. You do not. They do)

There are literally hundreds of thousands of people playing the new shiny MMO! If ZOS doesn't change the game to the way I want it, ESO is DEAD!

(Ahh yes, the 'new hotness'. Like many before it, and many to follow. The game is already showing it's poor lack of planning. PVP is a joke. Few even flag for PVP, but let me give you a tip, the best way to win a large battle? Mass report the opponent's leader, thus instantly banning them from the game. Banking tied to factions? That's not going to affect faction population at all, or will it.. hint.. the answer is yes it will and already does. Did you ever play classic WoW? Did the fact that the servers were so lop sided to one faction make the game more fun? Copy pasted towns tilted on the map to face the entrance in a different direction? The innovation will surely be the end of ever other MMO! Virtually no story? Who needs story when it's hard mode right? I wish the new game well, it sure did look pretty when I played it, but it's not a threat, and it won't be for quite a long time)

*****EDIT***** shiny MMO has a LOT OF FLAWS... lol able to inject code into the chat window to crash other people's client!

ESO though, has found it's niche. I hope you can appreciate that, I know I do.

Adremal

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Solar Prison and Soul Tether should do at least half the job, with the burst doing the rest. I'd be shocked if any regular delve boss would be able to survive a whatever Nova morph + execute, same for whatever bursty NB opener/Tether/execute. The bear is constant passive DPS with a stun, tried Toxic Barrage? That's a literal one-click-kill. As is Elemental Rage. The point is, I refuse to believe anyone has trouble vaporising normal delve bosses, let alone killing them.

Hmm. I suppose it may vary by who you play with. Just doing random delve runs during the last couple events, even with other people there, delve bosses don't "vaporize".

Only time I've seen stuff like that is during zone double-drop events, where you have 12+ people camping the spawn.

The usual people I run across working their way through delves, seem at a similar level to me - they aren't OHK'ing the regular hallway mobs, either. Takes a few shots.

And even so I had several cases of a boss spawning, boom, boss dead.

Like I said, outside of cases where the boss room was literally filled with more players than could get loot, I've literally never seen that. From me or anyone else.

I logged in for the sake of checking and my tooltips for Shooting Star (Comet would do more damage) and Elemental Rage yield 86.100 and 94.311 respectively, unbuffed, with a lightning staff and Thaumaturge/Deadly Aim/Biting Aura unslotted because I can't be bothered to find the spreadsheet of what affects what (though I think both ultimates are affected by Thaumaturge and Biting Aura). Passive damage sources, procs, stuff like Rebate and so on not calculated. Penetration capped. Rapidly sifting through https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Delves shows that delve bosses range from ~66k to ~133k HP. So yeah, they melt to those. As to trash mobs in delves I forgot the last time I noticed them, I just run dropping the occasional Mystic Orb if they block the way or if I feel like it and that's enough to make the XP show up, so...

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Well anything on normal delve boss level can be melted by an ultimate even by an undergeared character assuming it's unscripted, all you have to do is drop a meteor or elemental rage or something on it. As to how much, that'd be difficult, granted, but we already have a "vet zone" of sorts (Craglorn) and that level of "vet" would be an acceptable compromise I think. I mean I melt through it now but I remember getting my ass kicked when I first got there.

@trackdemon5512 Harrowstorms are still ran by lot of people and I bet they have more fun than with Dolmens, less so than when they launched because they're not exactly difficult given a bit of gear and experience (or just sheer numbers) but I remember enjoying them when they came out and people died a lot on them, myself included (did they nerf them? It feels like they've been nerfed, I don't get oneshotted anymore even on the neglected alts, I don't really pay much attention to that kind of thing).

Vhozek wrote: »

Nobody is complaining about the mob difficulty in the other game and it is much much harder than ESO mobs on top of having to manage ammunition for some weapons and having to aim with every single spell.
ESO has companions and many other things to make fights "accessible" in PvE. I'm sure you can deal with better mobs.

What's that other game, Voldemort? Anyhow, apples and oranges, you can't really compare the two combat systems, and while NW has harder overland because it's a Souls-wannabe MMO and you have to dodge and roll or block, many do indeed find the overland too difficult. Or rather, they find it mind-numbingly easy at the beginning and too hard once they hit the 50+ zones because mobs get more attack patterns and outlevel you. They're still easy and stupidly predictable if you're used to Souls-like games and will have no issues soloing Malevolence and even Myrkgard if you stay away from the big ones, but that's the 0,5% of players at most. The rest whine on the forums about getting sent to quests that are marked as solo and aren't soloable by the average player.

No one is doing Harrowstorms now. No one. The same one will last for hours in a single instance. You can never say the same about a dolmen or a geyser. Even dragons in Southern Elsweyr go faster. Players may like the initial difficulty but they shun it in the long run. And that’s the problem ZOS contends with. People don’t want to engage in the long run. When that happens the game starts to die.

That's not my experience, I run Reach dailies... well, daily, and there's always people doing Harrowstorms. The only stuff that I see remaining in the same place for a while are dragons in Northern Elsweyr.

drsalvation

Kamatsu wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

So instead of constantly beating your head against a brick wall, why not instead push for a smaller change that has a greater chance of actually happening - ie more difficult optional solo quest's. ZOS is likely more willing to do that as it would cost less, which means it'll take less dev time & resources away from what makes ZOS the most... thus they will lose less money doing so, which means they would be more willing to actually do so to try and offer something to the "we want harder quest's' people.

ZOS have already indicated they have no interest in doing the harder overland thing again, due to metrics showing low interest in it. So constantly pushing for exactly that... is pointless. I've seen those pushing for this say there are more that want this that we assume - what I'm suggesting is a perfect way to prove it. Push for ZOS to implement an optional harder solo quest instant thing in one of their expansions.... and then everyone who wants harder overland better use that optional mode. If there really is as big a demand for optional harder fights as you all claim, the metrics will show it... and thus if the metrics back you up, then ZOS will be more likely to do more because they will see less loss of revenue due to demand for it.

I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread that calling it "veteran overland" was a bad idea because people are right, it involves every trash mob, world boss, etc. My original intention was more related to only story mobs. The 5 companions main questline is already single player and instanced, that would be a good start on adding vet or normal mode.
Story content has a lot of potential, but you can only play it ONCE with a single character, trying to make the final boss fights epic, just devolves into me holding back. There was no reason for me to hold back against molag bal.
But I agree, unfortunately games as a service aren't really about user experience, but more about income.

Kamatsu

Elsonso wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

I'll tell you OP, I was 100% with you when reading your post when you talked about ESO implementing an optional veteran solo mode for quest's. I 100% agree that it is something that ZOS should offer for players like you - an optional mode for the solo quest fights where mobs/bosses have better skills, maybe even unique mechanics.

That is something that I feel ZOS might be willing to do - even though it would increase dev cost due to having to code & test it... it's of a limited nature, and less likely to heavily negatively effect anything else.

My feeling is that this is one of those things that sound great, at least on forum paper, but would not be like that in reality. I'm not exactly sure where people get the idea that an "option" is somehow the answer to all the problems that exist. As I think about all the problems that can arise, an option may actually be among the worst ways to do it.

I am no dev, so I don't know exactly how hard or easy it would be to add a toggle for just the single-player solo story instances... or how much that would effect. However I'd assume that it would likely take less effort, and effect less, than doing a full overland wide veteran mode toggle.

So just to clarify - I'm not talking about a toggle that would have any effect on normal overland mobs, fights, quest's, etc. Purely on stuff that could be 100% instanced away/differently from everyone else: Which comes down to solo story instances, followed by public dungeons & delves.

Depending on the way ESO is coded and such, it might literally not even be possible to do a switch for any of those three things. I don't know. I just feel that ZOS would be more receptive into looking into it, at the very least, if ppl push for something as limited in scope as just the solo story instances at a bare minimum.

The OP, and others, have pointed out that questing is really a 'one time only' thing, which is true. However I still think it would be a good way to gauge actual interest in something like this, as well as looking into maybe being able to expand harder things to optional/switchable delves & public dungeons.

Yes I know there's the doubt about it due to how unpopular harder 'groupish' content like Harrowstorms are. But there unpopularity might be more to do with their style, implementation, etc rather than purely 'hate on hard' type thing. Just my thoughts... as someone who has not down harrowstorms or dragon's (so I can't comment about them apart from what I read about them).

drsalvation

Amottica wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

BTW, trials and dungeons are designed to run multiple times. Since you brought up the trials, I do sincerely ask, have you cleared all the trials on vet HM, including the latest? Have you cleared all the arenas on veteran difficulty?

yeah, I cleared up vAA which was fun, but I did it because I wanted resilient yokeda gear. Then we went for nCR, and that's when I realized my main motivation for them was for the cool gear that would be useful for other trials.
That's about it.
The gear I farmed, the motivation for me to get stronger was just for trials, as tanking is useless and highly nerfed in PvP, and you can run the main stories completely naked (I've found that new characters, lvl 3 and such tend to deal much more damage than my 50/900 CP mains).

Trials are glorified gear farms in the end, which are only used for other gear farm- Trials and dungeons.
There's nothing else that tests those sets you farmed, so what's the point of farming them? You don't need them for the story, and they're pretty useless in PvP, so you just end up running the same things for the sake of not letting your cool new gear go to waste.

drsalvation

Kamatsu wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

I'll tell you OP, I was 100% with you when reading your post when you talked about ESO implementing an optional veteran solo mode for quest's. I 100% agree that it is something that ZOS should offer for players like you - an optional mode for the solo quest fights where mobs/bosses have better skills, maybe even unique mechanics.

That is something that I feel ZOS might be willing to do - even though it would increase dev cost due to having to code & test it... it's of a limited nature, and less likely to heavily negatively effect anything else.

My feeling is that this is one of those things that sound great, at least on forum paper, but would not be like that in reality. I'm not exactly sure where people get the idea that an "option" is somehow the answer to all the problems that exist. As I think about all the problems that can arise, an option may actually be among the worst ways to do it.

I am no dev, so I don't know exactly how hard or easy it would be to add a toggle for just the single-player solo story instances... or how much that would effect. However I'd assume that it would likely take less effort, and effect less, than doing a full overland wide veteran mode toggle.

So just to clarify - I'm not talking about a toggle that would have any effect on normal overland mobs, fights, quest's, etc. Purely on stuff that could be 100% instanced away/differently from everyone else: Which comes down to solo story instances, followed by public dungeons & delves.

Depending on the way ESO is coded and such, it might literally not even be possible to do a switch for any of those three things. I don't know. I just feel that ZOS would be more receptive into looking into it, at the very least, if ppl push for something as limited in scope as just the solo story instances at a bare minimum.

The OP, and others, have pointed out that questing is really a 'one time only' thing, which is true. However I still think it would be a good way to gauge actual interest in something like this, as well as looking into maybe being able to expand harder things to optional/switchable delves & public dungeons.

Yes I know there's the doubt about it due to how unpopular harder 'groupish' content like Harrowstorms are. But there unpopularity might be more to do with their style, implementation, etc rather than purely 'hate on hard' type thing. Just my thoughts... as someone who has not down harrowstorms or dragon's (so I can't comment about them apart from what I read about them).

Exactly this!
The problem with harrowstorms is that they're hard and you NEED more players to deal with them, it's not that people hate them because they're hard, they hate them because they can't be solo'd. Geysers CAN be solo'd which is why there are no complaints about them even tho they're still hard to do.

And as I mentioned on other posts, overland veteran was a poor choice of words, I'm referring more specifically to story content, just as you mentioned. The 5 companions story is already a solo instance like dungeons.
If story content would have a veteran option, it would make farming gear from trials and dungeons more rewarding since now you get to USE that gear to survive story content to keep you engaged.
Instead, that gear is only tested on arenas and dungeons, it's very limited to just that, and if you don't need it for story mode and it's useless in PvP, then what's the point of farming them?

And people who disagree with this idea are not against it because it's a "bad gameplay design" but because it's not economically feasible to ZOS.

Kiralyn2000

Adremal wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Solar Prison and Soul Tether should do at least half the job, with the burst doing the rest. I'd be shocked if any regular delve boss would be able to survive a whatever Nova morph + execute, same for whatever bursty NB opener/Tether/execute. The bear is constant passive DPS with a stun, tried Toxic Barrage? That's a literal one-click-kill. As is Elemental Rage. The point is, I refuse to believe anyone has trouble vaporising normal delve bosses, let alone killing them.

Hmm. I suppose it may vary by who you play with. Just doing random delve runs during the last couple events, even with other people there, delve bosses don't "vaporize".

Only time I've seen stuff like that is during zone double-drop events, where you have 12+ people camping the spawn.

The usual people I run across working their way through delves, seem at a similar level to me - they aren't OHK'ing the regular hallway mobs, either. Takes a few shots.

And even so I had several cases of a boss spawning, boom, boss dead.

Like I said, outside of cases where the boss room was literally filled with more players than could get loot, I've literally never seen that. From me or anyone else.

I logged in for the sake of checking and my tooltips for Shooting Star (Comet would do more damage) and Elemental Rage yield 86.100 and 94.311 respectively, unbuffed, with a lightning staff and Thaumaturge/Deadly Aim/Biting Aura unslotted because I can't be bothered to find the spreadsheet of what affects what (though I think both ultimates are affected by Thaumaturge and Biting Aura). Passive damage sources, procs, stuff like Rebate and so on not calculated. Penetration capped. Rapidly sifting through https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Delves shows that delve bosses range from ~66k to ~133k HP. So yeah, they melt to those. As to trash mobs in delves I forgot the last time I noticed them, I just run dropping the occasional Mystic Orb if they block the way or if I feel like it and that's enough to make the XP show up, so...

Yeah, I think the point I was going for is that you may be that awesome, but based on the other people I've seen around me in delves, it's really not the standard. I'm definitely not awesome, but neither are most of the people I run across. /shrug


(for curiosity, I checked my Magplar. Solar Disturbance says it does 3725/sec for 10sec. So that's 37k. 3.3k spell damage, 35% crit, 9495 spell pen. Stamblade's Soul Tether is 10.7k + 1.9/s. Don't have Meteor, but the unskilled tooltip says it would do 11.7k.)

kargen27

"my problem is that the gear you grind for in hard dungeons only works for hard dungeons, is there really a point to that? The gear you grind for in PvP only works in PvP, and god I hate PvP."

That simply isn't true. When I was in a top PvP guild we helped each other get dungeon and trial gear because it was the desired gear in PvP. Some builds that are considered top builds make use of overland gear and even crafted gear.

Also some skills gained in PvP are very good in PvE content.

That is by design. An MMO needs new content, players repeating content and players participating in a variety of content if it is going to survive long term. Gear good for PvP dropping in PvE behind RNG takes care of two of those conditions.

MasterSpatula

It wouldn't make the game more interesting. It would just make things that already take too long take even longer.

Please stop.

Asha_11_ESO

drsalvation wrote: »

What do you guys think would help make the stories feel more engaging with current game mechanics that won't revolve around adding dialogue?

This is just kinda how it goes in every game. You start out an under-geared newb. You get to learn every tiny thing about the game, all the mechanics, how your class works. It becomes second nature. You get bloated with gear/power. Sometimes the developers dumb stuff down too, mostly, i think, to cater to the changing demands in the player base. So then, only the hardest content in the game feels sufficiently challenging. Unfortunately many can't or don't want to, participate in group content, so are left with pve to try and sate our jaded in-game selves.

Maybe you could run around in overland wearing greens with no cps.

barney2525

Its one thing to have an Instanced area that has multiple difficulty settings.

It's a completely different animal to have an entire game world, - where everyone can interact with each other - , and allow individual characters to be on different difficulty settings.

The best way to accomplish what you want would be to have multiple servers, and you select the server you want to play on, based on its difficulty, before character creation. But that removes a large chunk of players from each server.

Otherwise, a player on normal mode traveling with a player on hard mode working together come up against the same mob. Probably the mob would just stand there for a moment and then keel over dead, from the conflict of trying to figure out what it's offensive and defensive capabilities are supposed to be for this situation.

Instances can have variables, because in selecting the specific difficulty you are setting that Instance to a single hard and fast set of rules.

The Game World can Not have variables. The game world Needs to have one single constant set of rules.