State of the game's overland

drsalvation

Let's be honest, story modes in this game aren't nearly as engaging as they should be, there are many factors, the cartoonish animations don't convey the dread and everything that's at stake, the voice acting does what it has to do but not enough to engage you (I always find myself skipping to the next dialogue as soon as I'm done reading), it's really not as engaging, the lack of any type of role-playing on this MMO-ROLE PLAYING GAME isn't as engaging either. I play as imperial and for some reason my character is supporting the daggerfall covenant by killing imperial spies. I can't even role-play as an *** by telling Eveli Sharp-Arrow that she looks terrible in that dress since you only get one dialogue choice, and the only choices you have is to pick which main character is going to die. But I can deal with all of that, I'm ok with it, I don't expect a world-changing quest choice in an MMORPG...

But I think the main reason as to why story mode is not as engaging is because ever since the danged rebalance patch of One Tamriel, everything has been completely dull.
Turns out the rats you had trouble with when you first started the game are just as strong as you now that you're champion lvl 1000 AND they drop the best resources for the best armors now...
But more importantly, story mode tells us about terrible villains that are supposed to be fearful, and yet, you mow them down like generic overland creatures, the bosses you're supposed to be afraid of. And because they're in public areas, you get there, a player already killed him, and then you gotta wait until the boss revives, and now it's your turn to kill him, and then a player who just got there has to wait for his turn to kill the boss, hurray, it's a childish haunted house where everyone gets their turn at the predictable jumpscare!
I remember the first days of the game when I was terrified of the brothers of strife, they were tough to beat at my current level, that was one of the reasons the story mode was engaging for us.

Nowadays, if you want to truly test your builds, there are dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp. That's neat and all, but there's also a problem: There's nothing pushing you to do them at all, it feels more like a theme park where you are just eager to go on all the rides.
That said, I don't think the story mode should direct you to dungeons or trials, but I DO believe that this game DESPERATELY NEEDS A VETERAN MODE FOR STORY MODES!

I hate PvP, it's a number/math game, whatever encounter you have with other players is already rigged from the start and your gear does all your fighting for you, dungeons and trials are cool but because there's no story pushing you to do them, they feel pointless at some point, other than just a way to grind for gear, so you can do more dungeons, so you can get more gear, so you can do other trials, so you can get more gear, so you can do more trials, and so on.

If story and overland had veteran modes, then you wouldn't feel like you're getting gear just so you can get more gear, now it would feel like you're getting better gear because you need to stop the villains and save whatever chunk of land the story takes place in, it would make the bosses be actual threats you can be afraid of, it would make the grinding and building your character feel more like a necessity to accomplish something.
I mean, if the bosses are there in a public space where players get to take a turn to defeat them, why not make those bosses as tough as the solo arena bosses? They're tough, it takes a lot for a single player to defeat them, and yet they can be defeated by one player, other players joining in will make the fight easier but still feel like a challenge.

I wanted to feel the dread of Merhunes Dagon invading, and yet all I got was some basic overland boss I could quickly mow down but decided to hold back to make the fight feel more threatening than it actually was, the whole story falls short because I'm more scared of solo arena bosses that don't even have a story than the so called enemies that the story mode seems so eager to sell you as an actual threat.

I'd prefer if bosses were at instanced locations, even if they were as easy as they are, but I think I'm asking too much for that, but a veteran mode would definitely make the game more engaging without limiting yourself to just tirals and dungeons to get an actual challenge.
This way I'll be more excited for future chapter releases because now I'd be eager to see what the story has to offer, and not because I wanna see what gear set will be the new meta for PvP (By the way, start stacking up on bash gear, we all know where the new meta is headed)

What do you guys think would help make the stories feel more engaging with current game mechanics that won't revolve around adding dialogue?

drsalvation

While I'm at it, why the hell does solo arena have DPS checks!?
What's the point of that in a place where it's only you?
Why are tanks forced to switch to a DPS build just to finish that arena and then go back to a tank build? I spend 30k gold just to switch to DPS to do the arena and then back to Tank, I get the armory is supposed to help me switch builds without spending so much gold, but it still makes no sense to add DPS checks in SOLO arenas! Why does this game hate Tanks so much?

NerfSeige

Make overland pvp toggle like new world. Make pvpers happier by having new content and there’s your “harder” overland. No need for vet.

drsalvation

I still think they should add a vet mode for PvE Overland, I simply don't like PvP, but that's an actually cool idea, a PvP overland, where you can kick out players of other factions out of your faction's territories.
Heck, even allowing us to use siege weapons outside of Cyrodiil, even if they don't destroy building walls, but at least they'd be a nice (and mostly useless) gimmick for overland.

trackdemon5512

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

drsalvation

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Amottica

I am a relatively new player to ESO, but experienced in MMOs from being casual to raising the most challenging level in games, though pretty much casual these days. I think the questing is just fine as it lets me focus on the most important aspect, the actual story telling.

It seems Zenimax made a conscious choice based on actual player behavior to make questing easier and make WBs more challenging. I found the boss that’s part of the new event a nice challenge before I found out it was designed as a group boss. So there are fights available for us that can handle a challenge

So it’s great we can offer out oppinions on what we think of aspects of the game. However, Zenimax seems to see the current design as a great success as they have started the game has never been more successful that it has been since they went to this style.

Regards.

Lady_Galadhiel

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

Was about to say the same

trackdemon5512

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Go read through all 40 pages. More than 1/2 of which are direct quotes from Matt Firor about it not happening, 1/4th of the pages about why technically and community wise it’s a poor idea, and the last 1/4 being individuals saying “Well who says these people are in the know? I think it’s a great idea and let’s ignore all evidence and arguments to the contrary.”

drsalvation

Amottica wrote: »

I am a relatively new player to ESO, but experienced in MMOs from being casual to raising the most challenging level in games, though pretty much casual these days. I think the questing is just fine as it lets me focus on the most important aspect, the actual story telling.

It seems Zenimax made a conscious choice based on actual player behavior to make questing easier and make WBs more challenging. I found the boss that’s part of the new event a nice challenge before I found out it was designed as a group boss. So there are fights available for us that can handle a challenge

So it’s great we can offer out oppinions on what we think of aspects of the game. However, Zenimax seems to see the current design as a great success as they have started the game has never been more successful that it has been since they went to this style.

Regards.

I appreciate the well-thought reply and I can see the logic behind it.
My problem is that about 80% of the game's content IS story content, PvP hasn't changed, trials and dungeons are nice but they're a single-run you can finish in only 1 day.
Once you reach CP 160, you've reached the end-game, dungeons and trials will feel repetitive, and if you want to play story mode, the overall lack of challenge becomes annoying to a point where the story falls short, because the enemies you're supposed to be afraid of can quickly die before they even finish their dialogues.
The only incentive for hard and challenging content are dungeons and trials, which again, you can finish in an hour.

Again, the problem with the story is that it tries to sell you these awful villains, but they're no real challenge to end-game players, there are quests everywhere and they become tedious because you don't get challenged at all. I want to get immersed in the story but when I have to hold back and attack once every 3 seconds to make the fight feel more intense, it just falls apart and there's no satisfaction nor sense of accomplishment.

And again, trials and dungeons are challenging, but when you finish them in a single run, there's really nothing engaging about them the second time you do them, and then the third, it just becomes a gear farm.

drsalvation

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Go read through all 40 pages. More than 1/2 of which are direct quotes from Matt Firor about it not happening, 1/4th of the pages about why technically and community wise it’s a poor idea, and the last 1/4 being individuals saying “Well who says these people are in the know? I think it’s a great idea and let’s ignore all evidence and arguments to the contrary.”

reading it now.
I do see a lot of people asking for better rewards in vet overland. I think there shouldn't be any extra rewards, just challenge, nothing else, that way they can avoid FOMO.

But whatever, I'm probably just beating on a dead horse at this point, it seems to me like wasted potential on this game, it's bad enough that tanking is pretty useless nowadays, the core content of this game is also pretty meh, and without the challenge, for end-game players, the point of farming for better gear seems rather redundant and pointless.

Could we at least agree to add more health to bosses? Even if it's not added challenge, just enough health so that it doesn't feel like you're on a theme park waiting for your turn to kill the same boss another player killed just a few seconds ago? Fighting a boss while stepping on his corpse just to leave another corpse within 5 seconds isn't what I'd call engaging.

Indigogo

tonyblack

You on the right track OP. The more people talk how boring and not engaging their questing are the more reasons for them to look for feedback and change things. The fact that this is so heavily discussed topic is good enough proof that not everyone satisfied.

drsalvation

I'm seriously surprised at how many people are against this concept.
I don't think we're asking for much by having a separate veteran mode to make story quests (you know, 80% of the game's base content) be more enjoyable, normal users could still play in normal mode.

Lady_Galadhiel

drsalvation wrote: »

I'm seriously surprised at how many people are against this concept.
I don't think we're asking for much by having a separate veteran mode to make story quests (you know, 80% of the game's base content) be more enjoyable, normal users could still play in normal mode.

Nah you are not asking for much,only a complete rework of all current mobs,delve bosses,wb,and so on even if its seperate instance it still means a lot of work, time and money what ZOS would need to invest.

drsalvation

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

I'm seriously surprised at how many people are against this concept.
I don't think we're asking for much by having a separate veteran mode to make story quests (you know, 80% of the game's base content) be more enjoyable, normal users could still play in normal mode.

Nah you are not asking for much,only a complete rework of all current mobs,delve bosses,wb,and so on even if its seperate instance it still means a lot of work, time and money what ZOS would need to invest.

Yeah, it must be impossible then, I wonder how the tamriel one patch ever came to be then, while still rolling out new content.
I guess the instanced veteran mode could be some extra work, but I mean, overland already has instances dynamically shift on quests when exploring flashbacks of certain regions, which also exclude players and current mobs and add different types of enemies, like when you're exploring the past when the brothers of strife were created.

kargen27

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

It is the same couple of people asking and the problem is it would mean a complete rework of the zones to make them engaging. Just adding more health to the mobs and bosses and making them hit harder doesn't make the fights more interesting. It just makes them last a couple of seconds longer. That means new mechanics and that takes a lot of time for what in the end would be essentially empty zones. Some players might go through the vet zone for the stories but then they will move on and if/when they return to harvest nodes or do surveys they are not going to jump into the vet zone.

It also runs the risk of making the less popular zones feel really empty by dividing the player base. I would like a harder overland but I understand why it will not happen.

I do think it would be nice to get a choice for a harder fight in solo instances going forward.

drsalvation

Yeah, I kinda see why it's something that will never happen in that sense.
I still think bosses should hit harder and have more HP, they're going to be surrounded by players anyway, so why not?
I'm just not a big fan of "it's my turn to kill the bad guy that you just killed a few seconds ago" concept.

kargen27

NerfSeige wrote: »

Make overland pvp toggle like new world. Make pvpers happier by having new content and there’s your “harder” overland. No need for vet.

New World was designed with overland PvP in mind. Lots of chokepoints and PvP oriented objectives. THe world is much smaller. Even with that players are complaining how little random encounters happen.

ESO is much more wide open, has no PvP objectives and is a much larger map. PvP encounters would be very rare unless actually planned by guilds. You might have a ganker or two sitting on a world boss but getting jumped when you are half way through killing a world boss and are low on resources doesn't make overland more difficult it just makes it frustrating.

Maya_Nur

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

There are some people (not me) who think it will destroy the game. I think you're 1000% right in every word you said in the starter post.

Magdalina

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Go read through all 40 pages. More than 1/2 of which are direct quotes from Matt Firor about it not happening, 1/4th of the pages about why technically and community wise it’s a poor idea, and the last 1/4 being individuals saying “Well who says these people are in the know? I think it’s a great idea and let’s ignore all evidence and arguments to the contrary.”

Forums are a bad representative of overall population opinion, but what IS a good representative is that we do keep getting these threads.

You know the real problem with overworld? It's how badly it's splitting the playerbase. Yes, it isn't l33t trials or vet dlc dungeons that split the playerbase - the first and biggest culprit here is this precious, casual-friendly, 'everyone can do it' open world.

Open world is the content that you start doing the moment you start the game, and often it will be the content you keep doing for a long while after that. Open world should be the content that teaches you the basics of the game, that prepares you for further, harder content. Of course, that doesn't mean that open world needs to be vMA difficulty, but there should be a learning curve where there's none. I can't count the times I've run into people in vet, often vet dlc, dungeons, who, despite having 100+, 300+, sometimes even 1000+ CP didn't have any idea that they're supposed to use potions, food, full item sets of specific weight, didn't know how to interrupt, didn't understand when to block and didn't understand they actually do need to get out of red. I'm patient, I like teaching, I've often offered food and potions, explained basic mechs, talked to them about sets etc after that. There're of course ignorant people who just don't care about learning and shouldn't do vet content, but there's a frightening number of people who simply don't know better.

I wholeheartedly object to the idea that you have to look up extensive guides in order to do even something as simple as vet Banished Cells 2 or, hell, vet Direfrost. You might want to look up specific mechanics, sure, but by the time you do vet dungeons you should at the very least be aware how to interrupt, dodge, block and get out of red. You should know that for challenging fights you need to use food and potions, etc. You should be aware that certain armor types/sets go better with certain skills (I'm not even saying weaving or optimised gear, but at the very least using magicka gear to go along with magicka skills, you know. Hell, actually using sets at all) etc. Then with those basics you should enter hard (mostly group) content and improve further (or they make a conscious choice to not do that, which is fine too. But this should be an informed decision).

But this isn't what happens, what happens is that people roflstomp open world, roflstomp all the story bosses including the Lord of Brutality and Domination himself, maybe roflstomp normals dungeons too and then they decide they're ready for vets and their random vets ends up, say, Banished Cells 2, a simple vanilla dungeon where they get brutally overrun by 15 daedroth on last boss due to lack of dps (I'm not even saying what happens if they get like vet LoM or vet MHK or something). People who have, one way or another, mastered ESO combat, grow tired of this and reside to rudeness in chat or just straight leaving. Newer players get assured that ESO vet content isn't for them [snip]. Meanwhile, vet players have en masse abandoned questing entirely, even though if you talk to them, many of them came from Skyrim and stuff to and enjoyed it at first, but just can't find it immersive anymore. There, now we have 2 very sharply divided parts of playerbase that absolutely cannot enjoy a huge part of game's content, both think their content is more important and keep jumping at each other's throat.

There will always be hardcore and casual players and there will always be some conflict of interests between them I guess, but ESO's lack of learning curve, along with certain combat design choices, does everything possible to bring those 2 and the difference between them to its extreme. This isn't good for the health of the game and its community.

[edited for baiting]

Adremal

NerfSeige wrote: »

Make overland pvp toggle like new world. Make pvpers happier by having new content and there’s your “harder” overland. No need for vet.

I mean that hasn't exactly worked out well for New World, which contrary to ESO was originally designed with open world PvP in mind, so it's probably not a good idea. A vet toggle would be far more interesting in my opinion.

Kiralyn2000

Of course, then there's the problem of what level of "veteran" do you make it for?

Build it for the top 50%, and the top 90% guys say "overland is STILL too easy! Give us a Vet2 mode!"
Build it for top 90% guys, and all the 50-80% folks say "OMG, too hard! That's not what we meant!"


Personally, I've been playing games for years where the difference between the gameplay difficulty of bosses and the narrative difficulty of bosses doesn't match up. Doesn't bother me. (Also, I don't care about pursuing endgame levels of DPS. Delve & end story bosses don't "die in two hits" for me. Even if they likely can't kill me. /shrug)

Vevvev

Magdalina wrote: »

There will always be hardcore and casual players and there will always be some conflict of interests between them I guess, but ESO's lack of learning curve, along with certain combat design choices, does everything possible to bring those 2 and the difference between them to its extreme. This isn't good for the health of the game and its community.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. PvE vs PvP, casual vs hard, the game does a poor job preparing it's players for the rigors of what it has to offer. I know someone in my guild who's first video game ever is ESO and they're so lost. Not only do they have the uphill battle of learning how to play games, but also the terrible in-game explanation and documentation as if the devs assumed everyone would get it from prior experiences.

Kiralyn2000

It feels like I've seen "The game doesn't prepare you for dungeons/endgame/etc" threads on every MMO forum I've ever read.

Elsonso

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month.

Mainly, I think they keep asking about it because it hasn't sunk in yet that ZOS is not really interested in overland veteran.

Ravensilver

Ugh... are we doing this again? Didn't we just have 40 pages of this, with the result that a) it ain't happening, not now, not ever, b) not everyone wants this, rather a small minority does, c) ZOS is never doing this?

Can we close this thread? @ZOS_Kevin ?

NerfSeige

Adremal wrote: »

NerfSeige wrote: »

Make overland pvp toggle like new world. Make pvpers happier by having new content and there’s your “harder” overland. No need for vet.

I mean that hasn't exactly worked out well for New World, which contrary to ESO was originally designed with open world PvP in mind, so it's probably not a good idea. A vet toggle would be far more interesting in my opinion.

ESO’s combat is miles better than new world imo (when it works). Don’t really see the point of vet overland, I am a god that defeated daedric princes, dragons, and such. It would actually be immersion breaking if I’m having a hard time on mobs and mid tier bosses.

Open world pvp however is more immersive cause you can expect other players to be as good or better than you.

But I guess people just wanna dance on mobs, sweat a little cause they are harder, and pat their back at the end of the day.

Vaoh

Best solution isn’t to tell players to go quest naked.

Give us a slider to:
1. Reduce our Damage Dealt (0-99%)
2. Reduce our Healing Taken (0-99%)

Overland doesn’t change.

You can curb your own strength without having to do all sorts of weird/tedious gear and skill swaps.

trackdemon5512

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

What's wrong with a harder difficulty mode? And there's probably a reason why people keep asking for it every month lol.
I'm not saying to replace all story modes, I'm saying a separate veteran mode, like dungeons have normal and dungeon modes, people can still have the easy mode, others can enjoy a more challenging mode without stepping on each other's toes.

Go read through all 40 pages. More than 1/2 of which are direct quotes from Matt Firor about it not happening, 1/4th of the pages about why technically and community wise it’s a poor idea, and the last 1/4 being individuals saying “Well who says these people are in the know? I think it’s a great idea and let’s ignore all evidence and arguments to the contrary.”

reading it now.
I do see a lot of people asking for better rewards in vet overland. I think there shouldn't be any extra rewards, just challenge, nothing else, that way they can avoid FOMO.

But whatever, I'm probably just beating on a dead horse at this point, it seems to me like wasted potential on this game, it's bad enough that tanking is pretty useless nowadays, the core content of this game is also pretty meh, and without the challenge, for end-game players, the point of farming for better gear seems rather redundant and pointless.

Could we at least agree to add more health to bosses? Even if it's not added challenge, just enough health so that it doesn't feel like you're on a theme park waiting for your turn to kill the same boss another player killed just a few seconds ago? Fighting a boss while stepping on his corpse just to leave another corpse within 5 seconds isn't what I'd call engaging.

One Tamriel came about out of necessity. The game was dying of extreme measures weren’t taken. The VR/CP systems were originally designed in tandem with initial game development but didn’t make it in time. By the time it started rolling out the issues of zones with varying difficulty/hard instances/tough combat became apparent.

Yes you had those that enjoyed it but the vast majority of players just stopped. And to this day Matt and the other developers have toyed with adding more difficult overland encounters. Harder world bosses, Harrowstorms, dragons, more mechanics in story mode, etc.

However there was clear evidence of engagement falloff for players. So as Matt said difficulty was put into World Bosses, trials, dungeons, etc.

The overland is for everyone to enjoy with simple and sometimes engaging stories. I think all of us enjoyed a number of them. Stibbons, Heem-Jas, The Traveling Acting Troupe out of Summerset. Difficulty added isn’t needed.

Vhozek

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

NO. JUST NO.

It’s apparently that time of week again. We literally went through 40 pages of this about a week ago.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

And we will go through it again.