Update on recent action against some ESO accounts

code65536

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter.

That seems highly unlikely.

1. Addons to auto-loot mail have been around for years. I use Mail Looter, which was made in 2015. There's Postmaster Mail, which has been around for even longer. Why now? And as you note, LWC recently added recently hireling mail collection, but...
2. The bans were limited to a relatively small number of people on PC/EU. Addons with mail auto-loot functionality are in widespread use. If there was a problem, I'd expect tens of thousands of people to trip it, not a few dozen on a single server.
3. You'd think that if an addon was "defective" in such a way that it was setting off alarm bells, that ZOS would get in contact with the addon author to get that "defect" fixed, but I know that Dolgubon, based on what he has written in other channels, is just as in the dark about this as everyone else.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Elsonso wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@Schiffy And that one addon was...?

I could not find that info written black on white anywhere (I haven't researched for ages either but I, too, was curious). But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter. Seems like this option of autolooting mail attachments is misbehaving, or, better said, causes ZOS logs to misbehave if they are used in conjunction with a full inventory. Not Dolgubon's fault in any way.

No one impacted is posting their addons so we can't find a common addon. I would hesitate to name any addon in particular, since there are apparently multiple addons that could have contributed to this.

I understand and respect this precaution. As I said, it's not sure and it's not against the add-on nor its author in any way.
BUT I also think that we players are entitled to know what conjunction of things can potentially lead to unjustified bans and retortion measures of that scale.
Of course it would be better if ZOS named it rather than us guessing. This way the addon author could fix the issue, or ZOS could fix the issue (seems it's on their side) or we players could fix our settings.

Blobsky

So it seems that the affected people have STILL not been repaid despite the maintenance and an open acceptance that it was Zenimax's fault.

Any comment on progress? @ZOS_GinaBruno

The affected people will be posting here shortly...

@Nefas will no doubt be interested in this news.

anitajoneb17_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter.

That seems highly unlikely.

1. Addons to auto-loot mail have been around for years. I use Mail Looter, which was made in 2015. There's Postmaster Mail, which has been around for even longer. Why now? And as you note, LWC recently added recently hireling mail collection, but...
2. The bans were limited to a relatively small number of people on PC/EU. Addons with mail auto-loot functionality are in widespread use. If there was a problem, I'd expect tens of thousands of people to trip it, not a few dozen on a single server.
3. You'd think that if an addon was "defective" in such a way that it was setting off alarm bells, that ZOS would get in contact with the addon author to get that "defect" fixed, but I know that Dolgubon, based on what he has written in other channels, is just as in the dark about this as everyone else.

Thanks for all these details.
Then I guess we have to keep guessing or wait until someone says something for sure, or forget about ever knowing what was up.

MarcoPolo184

Any news on when the missing gold will be returned? It is still not there after the maintenance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Softy76

As one of the people who was affected I am now frustrated that you apologised but still did not pay back despite the maintenance.

Blobsky

Seems a good reminder helped, affected members have gradually started receiving their honest gold back, but with a one week delay...

Hopefully all of them.should be solved again soon

Avandri

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

No. Most bugs are not game-breaking and I don't want delayed content just because of that. Besides, bug-free software is an impossible thing to ask for.

I'm guessing you're not a console player, as some of the more recent patches have been game breaking for console users.

Look, I love playing ESO as much as anyone and I'd love to have events and new content as often as they can dish it out. But if I had to choose, I'd pick quality over quantity.

Elsonso

Avandri wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

No. Most bugs are not game-breaking and I don't want delayed content just because of that. Besides, bug-free software is an impossible thing to ask for.

I'm guessing you're not a console player, as some of the more recent patches have been game breaking for console users.

The only game breaking console bug that I am aware of on XBox is the crashing client one, right? Series X only, as I have noticed. I think I heard Rich say that this fix is in Certification.

Dolgubon

MarcoPolo184 wrote: »

Any news on when the missing gold will be returned? It is still not there after the maintenance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Today is Monday, so it's the first business day since the post. They likey didn't start until today, so I would expect that it will take them a little bit longer, but not too much longer. Maintenance has little to do with something like this. It's different people who do maintenance, and it might not even be possible to do changes like that during a maintenance.

Elsonso wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@Schiffy And that one addon was...?

I could not find that info written black on white anywhere (I haven't researched for ages either but I, too, was curious). But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter. Seems like this option of autolooting mail attachments is misbehaving, or, better said, causes ZOS logs to misbehave if they are used in conjunction with a full inventory. Not Dolgubon's fault in any way.

No one impacted is posting their addons so we can't find a common addon. I would hesitate to name any addon in particular, since there are apparently multiple addons that could have contributed to this.

The affected players have apparently compared add-on lists. Writ crafter was not on all of them, surprisingly. But even if it was, the low number of affected players means it's unlikely it's the culprit.

Elsonso

Dolgubon wrote: »

MarcoPolo184 wrote: »

Any news on when the missing gold will be returned? It is still not there after the maintenance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Today is Monday, so it's the first business day since the post. They likey didn't start until today, so I would expect that it will take them a little bit longer, but not too much longer. Maintenance has little to do with something like this. It's different people who do maintenance, and it might not even be possible to do changes like that during a maintenance.

Elsonso wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

@Schiffy And that one addon was...?

I could not find that info written black on white anywhere (I haven't researched for ages either but I, too, was curious). But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter. Seems like this option of autolooting mail attachments is misbehaving, or, better said, causes ZOS logs to misbehave if they are used in conjunction with a full inventory. Not Dolgubon's fault in any way.

No one impacted is posting their addons so we can't find a common addon. I would hesitate to name any addon in particular, since there are apparently multiple addons that could have contributed to this.

The affected players have apparently compared add-on lists. Writ crafter was not on all of them, surprisingly. But even if it was, the low number of affected players means it's unlikely it's the culprit.

Unfortunately, ZOS will never say what an addon did to get on a cheat list. Some new addon writer could wander up tomorrow and create an addon does that same thing. We can only hope that whatever ZOS is doing to address this is already in place.

kmcaj

Why people get free item for using 3rd party add-on cheats? [Snip]

[Edited for bait]

Avandri

The only game breaking console bug that I am aware of on XBox is the crashing client one, right? Series X only, as I have noticed. I think I heard Rich say that this fix is in Certification.


Yes that's the most recent issue with the September 22 patch, series x/s players have been impacted most with crashes every few minutes. There was also a significant impact to playstation users a few months back with a patch and there has been widespread reports of crashing, lagging and general performance issues for console users across the board since console enhanced I believe? Not sure which patch that one started but it's been lingering for a while.

heinousmoz

kmcaj wrote: »

Why people get free item for using 3rd party add-on cheats? [Snip]

Because they didn't cheat...

VaranisArano

kmcaj wrote: »

Why people get free item for using 3rd party add-on cheats? [Snip]

Addons aren't cheats.

I mean, there's a whole section on the forums for discussing them. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/add-ons-and-ui-mods

ZOS allows addons, which use the API that ZOS has open. Remember that ESO was originally a PC-only game and that addon support was a major draw for TES players, who are used to Bethesda's support for mods.

Addons aren't mods, in that they can't fundamentally change stuff the Devs don't open up for use. So an addon can automate the process of doing crafting writs, but it can't give you materials you don't have. In some cases, ZOS has altered the API to remove certain functionalities. For instance, certain PVP alerts that let players know they were being attacked from stealth were removed. However, alerts that tell PVE players when certain mechanics happen have not been removed. In other cases, ZOS has taken the ideas from popular mods and implemented them in the base game. Much of the current housing decoration interface started out as an addon, as well as the new crafting writs system and the Armory system are both inspired by PC addons.

Addons also aren't cheats. Though created by third party authors, they are within the bounds of allowed gameplay. It's not like Cheat Engine, where you can change stats, or macros where you can automate certain combat manuevers. Again, not only is the API controlled by ZOS, but ESO was intended for addon usage. Adding Consoles could have muddied the waters since Sony and Microsoft don't approve of random addon authors adding code to their systems. However, ZOS has taken the approach that addons are fine on PC, and that status quo has continued.

So you are entirely incorrect. Those players did not deserve a ban for using an addon which uses the API as ZOS allowed.

And if you really think that, then the majority of players on PC also deserve bans because, well, we use addons that use the API as ZOS allows.

InappropriateMount

I might be a little late to the party - finally got around to getting a forum code to post here. Some of you might recognise me from Reddit. If you do, hi! Thank you very much for the support

When I made that first post on behalf of a friend affected and then the follow-up in collaboration with members of our community, we weren't sure what to expect or how much support we'd get. Sure, there was the forum post here but we wanted our voices heard, make our own efforts to support the people in our community affected and equally everyone else affected too.

To see the support we got from people was amazing and then to see this from ZOS? Couldn't have asked for a better outcome. It was certainly one we didn't expect! But it's one we very much appreciate. Thank you ZOS! Thank you for being open, honest and communicative with this post!

I am hopeful that we won't get a repeat of this fiasco. I will admit there is a bit of trepidation about how this could potentially affect addons in the future, but hopefully it is just a bit of spring-cleaning on ZOS's end.

GreenhaloX

Good looking out, ZOS! Now.. will we all be getting some kind of "We are sorry" compensational gift? 5 free crown crates, perhaps.. nudge.. nudge..

RaEDe

GG ZOS!

Juta

Thank you for honesty and for enlightening that problem

Tenthirty2

@ZOS_GinaBruno THANK YOU!
This is the kind of rapport, communication and transparency that makes me happy to support ZOS and my fav MMO!

So to you and whomever made the good decision to allow you to share this, HUGE thanks!
There is so little accountability everywhere these days and you all not only owned your mistakes but are making things RIGHT.

Thank you again!

FlopsyPrince

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm quite glad to see that this was caught, and is in the process of being fixed.

However, I'd like to point out that this was caught and fixed in part because of sustained community outcry that it needed a greater level of review than what we were assured was given. Specifically, we had a member of ZOS' team assure us that this was investigated by a specialized team on the thread where this issue was first brought up. That was probably true, but as this follow-up goes to show, the community outcry was correct and the suspensions were in error.

Please remember that this is not just a matter of distrust in the Trading community. This is also a matter of distrust in Support, the teams who oversee and investigate your anti-cheat detection systems, and the teams who communicate those decisions to the affected players. It is not good for players when it feels like the only way to get a fair shake from Support is to raise a sustained outcry on other platforms. Unfortunately, in this and another recent incident, that's exactly what happened.

So I hope Support can take notes from this situation about how they can better handle players who are caught up in waves of disciplinary action. Better communication all around goes a long way, and a better appeals process might help players feel like Support is listening to their concerns without rushing off to spread their story on other platforms. If the discipline is correct, great! If the disciplinary action has to be reverted, at least the wronged players will feel like they've been treated with more respect in the process.


- A Note: I have only had small interactions with ESO's Support for questions or a little bit of minor help. In each case, they've been as helpful as they could be!

The need to "raise a stink" on other platforms is rather disappointing.

I have not been as impressed with my recent interactions with Support. Glad you were!

FlopsyPrince

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

But it's an add-on with auto-loot for mail. So unless another addon that I don't know of can do that, I'd say it's Dolgubon's lazy writ crafter.

That seems highly unlikely.

1. Addons to auto-loot mail have been around for years. I use Mail Looter, which was made in 2015. There's Postmaster Mail, which has been around for even longer. Why now? And as you note, LWC recently added recently hireling mail collection, but...
2. The bans were limited to a relatively small number of people on PC/EU. Addons with mail auto-loot functionality are in widespread use. If there was a problem, I'd expect tens of thousands of people to trip it, not a few dozen on a single server.
3. You'd think that if an addon was "defective" in such a way that it was setting off alarm bells, that ZOS would get in contact with the addon author to get that "defect" fixed, but I know that Dolgubon, based on what he has written in other channels, is just as in the dark about this as everyone else.

I use Dolgubon's and at least one other mail addon that aren't playing completely well together recently, but I was not hit with this (that I noticed), so I don't think it was that one. I have been running daily crafting on 10 or so characters lately.

radogamer

It's nice to see there is still some humanity in our world! Thanks Gina, and thanks to the team for being on top of things especially when it comes to mistakes!! Well done and much KUDOS!!

coletas

And thats why triggers are useful at database level...

Xorious

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We don’t normally publicly discuss actions taken against player accounts, but there was a recent situation that we’d like to give you some clarity on. You probably saw some reports that a few players who participated in regular guild trading were temporarily suspended for suspected gold duplication and all gold was removed from their accounts. We’ve spent a lot of time reviewing this matter over the past week and subsequent investigations have indicated that a potentially defective addon was at fault – it erroneously triggered our anti-cheat detection systems. In short, the behavior on the affected accounts represented normal gameplay, meaning we actioned these accounts (and removed gold from them) in error. This was very much a mistake on our part.

We’d like to own up to our mistake and apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the affected players, in addition to causing any distrust within the trading community. We're beginning to return all seized funds to any players that were affected by this action along with an additional item for the trouble. We are also updating our processes regarding addons and logs associated with addons to try and prevent this from occurring again in the future.

We apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that this action caused, and we acknowledge that we need to update our internal processes to catch these kinds of events before it impacts community members who are playing legitimately.

THIS is what a good rapport with the community is all about. All of us appreciate the forthright information and response, Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno

StackonClown

As they say in the classics - "they only admit they're wrong when they get caught" - very sad

chaz

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We’d like to own up to our mistake and apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the affected players.

8 years, yes I will take that for face value. See, no one died for making that statement. You should try it more often. You'll be pleasantly surprised and tickled just how enlightening the Soul can feel.


Thanks.

Destai

@ZOS_GinaBruno Happy to see this acknowledgement, this really helps improve ZOS's image

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno THANK YOU!
This is the kind of rapport, communication and transparency that makes me happy to support ZOS and my fav MMO!

So to you and whomever made the good decision to allow you to share this, HUGE thanks!
There is so little accountability everywhere these days and you all not only owned your mistakes but are making things RIGHT.

Thank you again!

Were it not for the stink raised outside of this forum and their control, I am highly skeptical any statement would've been made. I'm happy they finally admitted to mistakes on their part, but I can't help but feel this incident yet again highlights that they need to be more humane in how they respond to their playerbase. They need to improve their customer service, in terms of technology and policies.

JoeCapricorn

Serious actions against accounts should never be determined by a computer or algorithm and instead cross-checked by a human. Perhaps automated actions ought to last for a relatively short while - like 8 hours, and sent to a review by a human for further action. For many of us, this game is a mental health support system, an escape from the troubles of life. Sometimes after being out for 12 hours at work and driving I just want to unwind and gather mats while listening to the soothing sounds of heavy metal. I can't imagine what getting some sort of action on my account would do with my anxiety and depression, especially if it was due to a software error.

I wouldn't want my dragon hoard to get wiped out by Skynet.

And an automated response should never say things like "this decision is final"

However, acknowledging the error is a good step, and already puts ZOS far above places like Facebook (that bans people for using the word "walnut" wrong). But automated systems and artificial intelligence can break and sometimes severely, so it should never be relied on.

Taco_Tuesday

It is really cool that ZOS owned up to it... Good character, I am impressed.