I don't understand why players complain about frequent changes.

daim

Yeah MMO's usually do only slight changes per update.

ESO is like: hey lets do this thing today and completely other thing the next day.

Willing to progress things is great but meaningless changes are not. And changes are meaningless if there's no logic or long term goal behind them. And that's how ESO feels like. It feels ESO combat dev is in constant beta.

Waseem

Indeed, I play minesweeper when Im looking for a game that doesn't change or develop

colossalvoids

On one side just a change fatigue especially for ones actively playing all those patches where something new appears just to be reverted next time or cancelled by other change later. Don't get me wrong some changes were beyond great and useful, la rebalance, 2h as 2 piece for a set, some hybridisation etc. but things like dot rebalance as example made it live and after was reworked leaving some skills changed for no reason because they've just forgot to update them leaving em useless. Not even talking about zos proposals like heavy and la attacks rework last year or shield cast times that made it into PTS even.
Count in Greymoor and Blackwood as patches without any significant features driving old time players away, Harrowstorm one that made instanced content unavailable (or just an rng fest farming for a decent instance) for months etc etc etc.

On the other hand is pvp where even smallest changes matter a lot and being actively killing population for years doesn't help. Like it's smallest it ever was and declining every single day by a lot and it seems like zos doing exactly 0 work to prevent this because they're busy with performance engineering that we can't see or feel so it's looking really bad. We don't even know if performance is possible to fix, lol.

Mumbles_the_Tank

Tannus15 wrote: »

people just love complaining and they hate that feeling of insecurity that their live build is doing to be bad now. which it won't be.

This is pretty unfair and way off base for this particular issue. ESO experiences volatile and often unnecessary changes where the ramifications were not fully appreciated by the devs most of the time. Despite the players pointing out inherent problems from the moment each PTS begins. Then there are the obvious marketing changes on top of those with each content drop.

Nor is it like many other games where these changes are centred on the big yearly expansion. They can and do happen every single quarter. They bring all their own bugs with them and most of those will not be fixed for multiple patches.

It has been beyond excessive for years and the situation has deteriorated rather predictably. Too many changes too often has led us through a slew of broken sets, passives and bugged out classes that hang around for far too long because then team is “small and overworked”.

Pointing to the QoL changes that are finally coming to alleviate the grind after years of this is more than a bit disingenuous. It’s like turning off the tap a year after the tub overflowed.

Andre_Noir

Form PvP side: there a lot of changes but they NEVER address a core problems but instead punish a medicore or even weak builds even more

mekops_ESO

Because I`m still in Beta after 7 years.

Nestor

Play at the Bleeding Edge, you have to change with each patch.

Pull back to 97%, you can play the same builds, with minor tweaks, for years.

Jazraena

Very slight changes in effectiveness I don't mind too much.

Big changes I try to compensate for, and when they change abilities or entire set functionality I sort of have to. I try to go for specific character themes with my builds vs meta chasing, and then try to achieve maximum effectiveness within that theme which means some changes that don't bother others might just offend my thematic requirements all of a sudden.

And frankly, I can't keep up with ZOS changing everything beyond 3 or 4 characters. Maybe. But I have more than that.

And that's before PvP even enters the equation.

peacenote

Lots of good answers in here that resonate with me.

I will add that part of it, too, is when we see whole playstyles get decimated/destroyed as an unintended consequence of a balancing change. It stings even more if the change was to help PvP and your build is for PvE, or vice versa. It makes it feel like the changes aren't considered carefully and that we as a community have no voice.

Then, if you are trying to maintain a bunch of characters to keep things fresh, you're bound to hit one of these game breaking changes pretty much every patch, even if you are not a meta chaser. And it is EXHAUSTING.

I primarily PvE, with some PvP, and between the CP changes and the craziness of the Cyrodiil experiments I haven't had time to make a viable PvP setup in what feels like two years. Maybe a year. I don't need to be the best or anything but when things don't work at all... you can't play like that and sometimes I just use my PvE build because it is more effective. That's kinda sad because, trust me, it doesn't work that well.

SidraWillowsky

I'm still traumatized from having my main (PvE stamblade DPS) nerfed into the ground and stomped on in 2018. The class has never actually recovered from that, I don't think. I switched over to a magden main and watched the class slowly get good over a period of a few years. It's in a great spot right now, but I still worry every time a quarterly update comes around because of these crazy changes that seem to happen like clockwork. I don't want to see my class return to meme status.

Xebov

Kusto wrote: »

When you got 18 characters, golded gear, many different builds. It takes long time to adjust to changes and then they change again. But people who only play 1 character, 1 role, and only play casually then sure, no problem.

If you have 18 characters i would instantly doubt that all of them, or even the majority of them, realy needs an update every patch. I would even doubt that they all need full gold gear.

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

When you invest in golding out gear every patch, you’d be frustrated too that they keep shaking it up

Last patch i golded out some meritorious gear for PVP only for them to add a set that makes purging bad, so i stopped using it

Its not suprising that it happens. If ppl want to be in the meta they ahve 3 months time between updates to prepare for it. Thats a good amount of time to gather the resources.

The3sFinest

The changes are too frequent and sometimes too drastic, to the point you have to completely rebuild, and more than likely for more than one character. For some, like me, that take frequent breaks (because life) and come back to spend hours and hours rebuilding, then take another break and come back forced to do it all over again, I will (as I have) find a different game to invest my time in.

Lapin_Logic

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

The same goes for the gear. Relequin, Syroria, PFG, Mother

When you farm or Buy gear for ridiculous prices today only for the combat team to realise they messed up and make a set worthless within 3 months it is annoying, even more so when you Gold it out, especially Jewellery, add on transmutes and that is a huge investment (I am not one that plays "Elder Guild trader flipping Online")

When you factor in a meta shift or new Flavour of the month set (ahem, Diamonds Victory) then factor in having 36 characters over 2 servers (some people more if they have multi platforms) it starts to feel like either Developer incompetence or a deliberate move in order to empty your gold and make you a slave to grinding/predatory market flipping/gouging or Buying crowns for "WTS Crowns 1000/1"

Heck, Stygian had been the same tool tip since CP replaced VR, I decide to farm it for a Magblade for a change in PVP and just as I farmed the staff and rings ZOS change the 5 piece wasting a week of work, the same with when I finally got Caluurions "Proc sets now need massive spell damage".

You Don't feel like you are achieving things when you have a bank of part builds and a Next PTS that is already telling you "Lol, your farming THAT 🤣"

Small changes didn't destroy builds, but all ZOS does recently is HUGE GAME CHANGERS.

Lapin_Logic

thorwyn wrote: »

It's a bit like vegans at a party. No matter what you say or do, they WILL tell you that they are vegan.

Give this man a Medal, you win the internet.

Lapin_Logic

peacenote wrote: »

. It stings even more if the change was to help PvP and your build is for PvE, or vice versa.

Yeah, I farmed Overwhelming Surge for a cool light armour (Light duty) Tank that could do OK damage to get RND (always end up in a DLC dungeon with light attack spammers and corpses to be) done faster, sustaining skills and block via Overwhelming and Dark deal /Balance for good sustain, Just as I bought a race change token to finalise the toon ZOS hit Overwhelming with a nerf hammer, now it's literally garbage for my purpose. Now replanning the build with the mythic chest piece.... nerf incoming?

Chips_Ahoy

I'm not complaining, I don't care what changes they make, I'll keep playing anyway.

But it makes me laugh that each new update is a contradiction with what they planned in the previous one.

They remove things in some updates and then they reintroduce it with another name and they brag about it.

They don't know how to fix the mess they created with CP 2.0.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

For me, it comes down to three things. I fully expect that an MMO is going to make changes from time to time, and with ESO, it is done quarterly. I am fine with that in theory.

What I do not like:

1. Balance my nerfhammer. ZOS completely lacks subtlety when it comes to balance. This goes both for skills and item sets. It is just frustrating to perfect a build or acquire a hard to get item only to see it become useless by the next patch. Not just less than ideal, absolutely 100% useless because instead of toning it down, they nerf it out of existence. I have 100s and 100s of gold items that are never going to be used again. I get that a gear treadmill is important to some degree, but it is way over the top in this game.

2. Changes that literally nobody asked for. This can certainly go hand in hand with number 1, and I don't presume to speak for everyone, but the number of times I have seen changes completely out of left field is more than I can count. Often these seem to be under the guise of raising the floor/lowering the ceiling, but they almost never have that effect.

3. Deteriorating performance. They have such a bowl of spaghetti code at that point, that their ability to make a change, even if it is theoretically a good one, that breaks something else completely unrelated is absolutely mind boggling. The vast majority of people I know that have played since beta would sacrifice a few DLCs if they really used that manpower to get performance under control.

xclassgaming

because change bad

Parasaurolophus

Until this topic gets too old to close, I would still like to hear specific examples of when you had to learn to play again.

VaranisArano

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Until this topic gets too old to close, I would still like to hear specific examples of when you had to learn to play again.

I don't know that limiting discussion to "I had to relearn to play the game" accurately reflects the nature of what most players mean when they complain about frequent changes.

Typically, it's more along the lines of: "My preferred class isn't as good this patch, so I need to play a different class."

Playing a different class or a significantly different build may or may not require relearning one's rotation or tactics (particularly in PVP, where tactics are a little more important than just learning mechanics). There's also been updates where the rotations have changed significantly, like when DOTs got buffed, and suddenly everyone was using all DOTs. Recently ZOS reworked stealth; didn't impact me much because I don't play nightblade in PVP, so it's worth noting that not every major change is going to impact every player, and it's easy to overlook changes that don't impact you.

Having to remake or regain gear has also been annoying, though loot curation and the sitckerbook have done a lot to alleviate that.

Even if one doesn't have to relearn to play the game, there's usually some sort of major adjustment to gear/rotation every three months. Frankly, I find adjusting several characters every three months so annoying that I don't bother anymore, and simply don't play at that high competitive level. But that may not be an option for players who really enjoy playing competitive PVP and group PVE.

kojou

I get salty about it because I have limited time per day to play, and I would rather do content than retooling a build.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

I don't mind changes now and then and I do enjoy theory crafting. On the other hand I've noticed that for PvE groups, the methods employed create a lot of peer pressure.

1). It's expensive to change to gear (jewellery and light pieces are through the roof)
2). I've watched videos of older players coming back to the game so confused (New CP system/set changes/modifier changes)
3). Most required sets are DLC based (Sub or purchase)

Changes have been rather substantial these past few years, but I'm not sure people really see an improvement in that regard?

EmperorIl

SimonThesis wrote: »

Try playing pvp in cyrodiil and watch the meta constantly shift from one extreme to another. Procs were not allowed in pvp for months and now you have to have 1 of 3 new proc sets.

THIS.

And there is a very clear reason why they keep changing things up.....PvP power sells. Switch meta to a set that has to be farmed and you keep people playing longer because now they need to farm the new set. Change meta from stam to mag and guess how many race change tokens you are going to sell? If you don't think this stuff is calculated to make money you haven't been paying attention. This is also the reason why every expansion or DLC features a new overpowered set that can be exploited in PvP. Once they sell enough they nerf it. Rinse, repeat.

EmperorIl

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

When you invest in golding out gear every patch, you’d be frustrated too that they keep shaking it up

Last patch i golded out some meritorious gear for PVP only for them to add a set that makes purging bad, so i stopped using it

Mechanical Acuity anyone? Couldn't have gone from meta to worthless faster.

Kwoung

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Changes have been rather substantial these past few years, but I'm not sure people really see an improvement in that regard?

And that pretty much nails it. ^^^

To answer, I have not seen any real improvements over the past few years. Sure sure, they have added some QoL stuff, but gear, performance, and overall playability... not so much. For me, I decided to just say the heck with it, I am running my old standby setup of VD & Spinners on my PVP character now (permanently)... and some solo build on my PVE one. I have tried all the mythics, the ones that were any fun, got nerfed to the point they are useless now, same for many flavor of the month gear sets, so instead of even brothering anymore, I simply gave up. Which of course has the side effect of giving me nothing to do or work for now.

Slow deliberate, well thought out changes are good for a game. Knee jerk experiments that need to be walked back 75% of the time aren't.

FluffWit

Zeni: "Good news guys, we realized proc sets are cheesy and awful, they're all banned from Cyrodiil!"
Us: "Oh..... so all my gear is useless now?"
Zeni: "Don't worry, proc sets will be back! And not awful!"
Us: "When?"
Zeni: " lol we don't know, could be 3 months, could be 6...."
Us: ...
Zeni: "ok, it's all sorted. Now they scale of weapon and spell damage! They'll be good but not op. Problem solved!"
Us: "You realize how much easier it is for stamina users to get high weapon damage then it is for magic users to get high spell damage, right?"
Zeni: "wait... what..... of course we do! This is just temporary, the real fix is still coming!"
Us: "Its been 9 months, hows that one going"
Zeni: "Good news guys, we have 3 BRAND NEW op proc sets coming to Cyrodiil! Our cheesiest ones yet"
Us: 🤦‍♂️

Xebov

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I often see complaints on the forums from players who say they are tired of the changes in the game. And I don't understand it at all.

The average player always reacts to changes but does not prepare for them. This means a patch hits live and they start waiting for build updates. They then star farming the gear and (mostly) buy the upgrade materials. There is also a good bunch of players that think they need the new meta stuff on all of their characters instead of keeping the previous setup which often is still good.

When you look at complain threads you can see that many players get tired because of this reaction game. They dont read PTS notes, they dont want to gather gear or materials in preperation. So of course they get tired because they want the up to date gear now but need 1-2 weeks of farming to get it because they didnt bother collecting stuff.

Kwoung

Xebov wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I often see complaints on the forums from players who say they are tired of the changes in the game. And I don't understand it at all.

The average player always reacts to changes but does not prepare for them. This means a patch hits live and they start waiting for build updates. They then star farming the gear and (mostly) buy the upgrade materials. There is also a good bunch of players that think they need the new meta stuff on all of their characters instead of keeping the previous setup which often is still good.

When you look at complain threads you can see that many players get tired because of this reaction game. They dont read PTS notes, they dont want to gather gear or materials in preperation. So of course they get tired because they want the up to date gear now but need 1-2 weeks of farming to get it because they didnt bother collecting stuff.

Don't forget the bit about after running that dungeon who knows how many times, whether you prepared ahead of time or not... if the set was any good it will be nerfed the next patch, starting the cycle all over.

And FYI, reading PTS notes or even testing there is somewhat hit or miss, as what gets released doesn't always match what was on PTS. I do play PTS, read patch notes and have farmed sets based on them, only to have them changed at the last minute and render them useless for the build I was trying, which is a whole other part of the change fatigue issue for those that do try and plan ahead.

Xebov

Kwoung wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I often see complaints on the forums from players who say they are tired of the changes in the game. And I don't understand it at all.

The average player always reacts to changes but does not prepare for them. This means a patch hits live and they start waiting for build updates. They then star farming the gear and (mostly) buy the upgrade materials. There is also a good bunch of players that think they need the new meta stuff on all of their characters instead of keeping the previous setup which often is still good.

When you look at complain threads you can see that many players get tired because of this reaction game. They dont read PTS notes, they dont want to gather gear or materials in preperation. So of course they get tired because they want the up to date gear now but need 1-2 weeks of farming to get it because they didnt bother collecting stuff.

Don't forget the bit about after running that dungeon who knows how many times, whether you prepared ahead of time or not... if the set was any good it will be nerfed the next patch, starting the cycle all over.

And FYI, reading PTS notes or even testing there is somewhat hit or miss, as what gets released doesn't always match what was on PTS. I do play PTS, read patch notes and have farmed sets based on them, only to have them changed at the last minute and render them useless for the build I was trying, which is a whole other part of the change fatigue issue for those that do try and plan ahead.

Iam aware of that. The point iam making is that most ppl dont prepare at all. A patch hits and they are like "Oh no something changed" and then they start running around.
With currated drops you can now farm any set you want at any time you want, you will still see long term players complain 6 or 12 months down the road because they didnt spend any time in gathering stuff for the stickerbook. The same goes for transmutes.
You can stock up on upgrade materials at any time and however you like, but most players choose the weeks following a patch and complain about higher prices.
Whats even worse is that these players get mad when you tell them that they could have spend a little time between patches to build up a collection to use later.

IronWooshu

People don't like change, it's not that they love complaining. Change is scary for alot of people and it's a weakness to our society. Change can be good, people just need to learn to embrace it more.