Time to look at Mechanical Aquity (pvp)

Aldoss

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

MadeInVN

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

MA never dominated back when Malacath still had its 25% dmg done, despite having an 18s cooldown and guaranteed proc chance. MA actually got nerfed in a future patch with its cooldown increased to 21s, yet people are claiming it's OP?

There are 3 reasons why MA is NOT the problem:

1) Critical Resistance nerf makes Critical Damage extremely valuable
2) The easiness to stack Critical Damage
3) The meta's shift to drop critical resistance all together

These reasons are why MA seem too strong, but if you critically think about it MA is not the cause, just the catalyst. Wearing MA without stacking any critical damage isn't going to land you big numbers. Wearing MA against people who stack high crit resist pretty much negates the entire set. Instead of nerfing MA, ZOS should look at how easy it is to stack crit damage, and how hard it is to stack critical resistance.

They made crit damage easily stack but countered it with nerfed crit %.

MA circumvents that sacrifice.

And the entire reason why Malacath was so dominant is because people realized how crappy building for crit chance was even before the nerf. Still, MA didn’t cause everyone to suddenly flock to it.

My experience comes from using MA for 3 months during Malacath meta, so while everyone suddenly flocked to MA, I’ve already seen all of its limitations. Outside of gank builds and some niche builds, MA is too unreliable. It’s easy to counter, has a very long cooldown, doesn’t allow you to front bar an arena weapon, and doesn’t offer sustained pressure between cooldowns. You may have very high burst during those 5s, but that is only going to work against ppl that don’t see it coming. It’s not gonna work a second time when your opponent knows what you use and holds block/disengage during your 5s offensive window. Compared to Malacath after-nerf, the sustained damage makes it a much better option for a vast amount of builds.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one static , the changes to crit, both higher damage and lower chance only caused MA to become even more viable. Your second point makes sense in duels but OW its not much of a problem at all.
MA is very reliable.

I guess my biggest issue with it is simple its so good on a ganker / bomber setup, I don't think its healthy gameplay.

Damn bruh alchimiste is not on my side. sadness

WrathOfInnos

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MA was made for cp 1.0 it’s not surprising that in this new cp where crit chance is at an all time low and crit damage it’s at an all time high MA is outperforming for many situations.

I’ve always liked acuity because there was a certain amount of skill in playing around it and lining up your burst. I think the fact that it can currently be utilized by gankers to such a degree is unhealthy gameplay.

Someone above me said it , consider delaying the activation by like 3 seconds. Non ganker/bomber specs will still be able to utilize it well

CP 1.0 allowed you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage. CP 2.0 allows you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage, with most of it tied to a flanking condition.

The main difference is that the new system reduces it to only 10% if the opponent is facing you, and that slotting either of these crit damage stars is directly competing with damage like Master at Arms or defensive stars.

Alchimiste1

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MA was made for cp 1.0 it’s not surprising that in this new cp where crit chance is at an all time low and crit damage it’s at an all time high MA is outperforming for many situations.

I’ve always liked acuity because there was a certain amount of skill in playing around it and lining up your burst. I think the fact that it can currently be utilized by gankers to such a degree is unhealthy gameplay.

Someone above me said it , consider delaying the activation by like 3 seconds. Non ganker/bomber specs will still be able to utilize it well

CP 1.0 allowed you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage. CP 2.0 allows you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage, with most of it tied to a flanking condition.

The main difference is that the new system reduces it to only 10% if the opponent is facing you, and that slotting either of these crit damage stars is directly competing with damage like Master at Arms or defensive stars.

CP 1.0 allowed you to get 3600 crit resistance without even trying.
CP 1.0 allowed you to actually have good crit chance without investing towards it or being a nb
in CP 1.0 no one in their right mind put 100 points into crit damage.
CP 2.0 doesn't offer nearly as much mitigation , and crit is more deadly

WrathOfInnos

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MA was made for cp 1.0 it’s not surprising that in this new cp where crit chance is at an all time low and crit damage it’s at an all time high MA is outperforming for many situations.

I’ve always liked acuity because there was a certain amount of skill in playing around it and lining up your burst. I think the fact that it can currently be utilized by gankers to such a degree is unhealthy gameplay.

Someone above me said it , consider delaying the activation by like 3 seconds. Non ganker/bomber specs will still be able to utilize it well

CP 1.0 allowed you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage. CP 2.0 allows you to invest 100 points for 25% crit damage, with most of it tied to a flanking condition.

The main difference is that the new system reduces it to only 10% if the opponent is facing you, and that slotting either of these crit damage stars is directly competing with damage like Master at Arms or defensive stars.

CP 1.0 allowed you to get 3600 crit resistance without even trying.
CP 1.0 allowed you to actually have good crit chance without investing towards it or being a nb
in CP 1.0 no one in their right mind put 100 points into crit damage.
CP 2.0 doesn't offer nearly as much mitigation , and crit is more deadly

Yes, those are the real reasons. Most players don’t have much mitigation or crit resist. I don’t think anyone in their right mind should be investing 100 points into crit damage now either, just means other stats will be lacking and you’ll be down a slottable if your opponent faces you. We’ll have to see how mitigation looks next patch, and whether it is enough change to fix the one-shot builds.

KhajiitLivesMatter

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I main NB. We need to admit MA is causing a lot of issues.

Back when the proc meta was unleashed MA went from having a chance to proc to having a guaranteed proc every 16 seconds.

At that time it was only used by bombers.

Now we're in a bomber renascence. There are more than there ever have been because it's never been easier to do it. It's not a coincidence that during and after MYM the forum was filled with angry posts about NBs. Fast forward and seemingly the changes to increase TTK seem directly linked to that anger.

The issue now is that MA is becoming BIS for nearly every class in PVP. I know sorcs, wardens, templars, and necros that are running it and destroying people left and right.

You can get up to 10 attacks in those 5 seconds if you're good at LA weaving. On top of that, during cooldown you're still critting at your usual rate. There's no drawback if you stack crit damage.

When a set goes from being niche for one build of one class to getting used across multiple classes to great effect, we have to be honest about it's power level, even if we use it ourselves.

Here are three suggestions.

1: Decrease the proc time from 5 to 3 seconds with the same cooldown. It would still be very strong, but would fall out of favor for the button mashers.

2: Keep it at 5 seconds but increase the cooldown to 30 seconds. It would be much less desirable for general use but still useful for those who sacrifice in other areas to fully exploit the set.

3: keep the proc time and cooldown the same but PREVENT critting outside the proc. Under the current spec, this would be the equivalent of 23% crit (5 / 21). Obviously that's low BUT you would still have the benefit of saving your biggest hits for when it procs and given the on screen animation it's hard to miss.

I look forward to seeing what others say.

all 3 options would kill the set it isnt even so strong atm just 2 dodge roles and the dude hast to wait 16sec again

rather fix the proc sets it only became strong cause 50% of all sets got destroyed

option 3 would be fine if it would be a mythic

Kaysha

Aldoss wrote: »

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

This is exactly why I stopped using MA. Good players just dodge twice when you turn blue. And vs not sp good players, you don´t notice a difference anyway.

DrSlaughtr

Aldoss wrote: »

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

50% crit does not mean half your attacks crit. It means every attack has 50% chance to crit, just like flipping a coin has 50% chance to land heads.

You can do 10 light attacks in a row and not crit once. There's no predictability. Because of that MA reigns supreme. I'm tired of making this point over and over. We'll see what happens when this goes live. I predict a large segment of Stam players will use MA. I hope I'm wrong.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

50% crit does not mean half your attacks crit. It means every attack has 50% chance to crit, just like flipping a coin has 50% chance to land heads.

You can do 10 light attacks in a row and not crit once. There's no predictability. Because of that MA reigns supreme. I'm tired of making this point over and over. We'll see what happens when this goes live. I predict a large segment of Stam players will use MA. I hope I'm wrong.

That works both ways. You can have 50% crit chance and land 10 crits in a row without Acuity. Only about a 0.1% chance of that occurring, but it’s equal to the chance of having zero crits out of 10.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

50% crit does not mean half your attacks crit. It means every attack has 50% chance to crit, just like flipping a coin has 50% chance to land heads.

You can do 10 light attacks in a row and not crit once. There's no predictability. Because of that MA reigns supreme. I'm tired of making this point over and over. We'll see what happens when this goes live. I predict a large segment of Stam players will use MA. I hope I'm wrong.

That works both ways. You can have 50% crit chance and land 10 crits in a row without Acuity. Only about a 0.1% chance of that occurring, but it’s equal to the chance of having zero crits out of 10.

AS I SAID the value of MA is a predictable crit window. I'm not going to throw my crescent sweep or hit my Necro bomb until I turn blue. The targets don't have time to react because they're already dead.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well report that in the last week of pvp, I've seen quite the assortment of blue avatars in Cyro for those magical 5 seconds. Almost all were gankers, with a few very odd stealth sorcs (that's a thing?) and a dk leaper.

Just like any flavor of the month, 90% of the people using it have no idea why it's good and either failed their gank or were immediately stunned/cc'd, and promptly died once they were no longer blue.

This is a nothingburger. It's a set that can be utilized extremely well by those that actually understand it, but that's true for just about anything. Sekaar was literally running a khajiit critplar this weekend with over 50% crit and actually having BETTER results than if he were using straight MA because that's 50% of every hit, not just for 5 precious seconds and then go into kite mode for 16 seconds hoping he can stay alive long enough to see blue again.

Stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs that add into the diversity of the game.

50% crit does not mean half your attacks crit. It means every attack has 50% chance to crit, just like flipping a coin has 50% chance to land heads.

You can do 10 light attacks in a row and not crit once. There's no predictability. Because of that MA reigns supreme. I'm tired of making this point over and over. We'll see what happens when this goes live. I predict a large segment of Stam players will use MA. I hope I'm wrong.

That works both ways. You can have 50% crit chance and land 10 crits in a row without Acuity. Only about a 0.1% chance of that occurring, but it’s equal to the chance of having zero crits out of 10.

AS I SAID the value of MA is a predictable crit window. I'm not going to throw my crescent sweep or hit my Necro bomb until I turn blue. The targets don't have time to react because they're already dead.

My opinion has always been that luck shouldn’t determine who wins and who loses a fight. Acuity is predictable, both for the attacker and defender, and a step toward player skill determining outcome. The changes to proc sets from RNG to controllable was another good step in this direction. Hopefully someday we won’t have to roll the dice to succeed.

Veinblood1965

I like having bombers to worry about. I built one but quit, they are such nich builds. Not great one on one. But it's fun having to worry about them and making sure not to group up and use detects etc. Gives the game a little excitement. Even when I'm the one dying it's a blast(pardon the pun) to see 15 peeps all dead on the ground due to not having blocked. Leave it alone.

neferpitou73

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I like having bombers to worry about. I built one but quit, they are such nich builds. Not great one on one. But it's fun having to worry about them and making sure not to group up and use detects etc. Gives the game a little excitement. Even when I'm the one dying it's a blast(pardon the pun) to see 15 peeps all dead on the ground due to not having blocked. Leave it alone.

I do too. It keeps you on edge even in a boring combat.

I've seen people complain about how OP and easy they are on the forums recently but all it's shown me is that those people haven't ever tried to play one; because it's hard and requires a lot of patience

SkaraMinoc

I see lots of players using MA that normally would not use it. Magsorc, Werewolfs, etc.

Easy to avoid the blue glow but still, lots of players switching to MA.

Andre_Noir

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

My opinion has always been that luck shouldn’t determine who wins and who loses a fight. Acuity is predictable, both for the attacker and defender, and a step toward player skill determining outcome. The changes to proc sets from RNG to controllable was another good step in this direction. Hopefully someday we won’t have to roll the dice to succeed.

No way. Every stat and tactic require certain investment but with MA everyone can get 100% crit chance that impossible even with a full crit gear. There is no skill only abuse of a broken set

Aldoss

Andre_Noir wrote: »

No way. Every stat and tactic require certain investment but with MA everyone can get 100% crit chance that impossible even with a full crit gear. There is no skill only abuse of a broken set

No. Please stop. It's 100% crit for 5 GCDs. Get stunned during it? Lose half your crit. Target roll dodges? Lose half your crit.

Once that person is no longer blue, their crit almost invariably will fall to below 20% and they are extremely weak for 3 times longer than they were blue for. That's the compromise.

This is a learn to play issue, not an abuse issue. As I said before, a build with 50% crit will outperform an MA build and allow you to survive longer than a player using MA. MA is a meme at this point.

neferpitou73

Aldoss wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

No way. Every stat and tactic require certain investment but with MA everyone can get 100% crit chance that impossible even with a full crit gear. There is no skill only abuse of a broken set

No. Please stop. It's 100% crit for 5 GCDs. Get stunned during it? Lose half your crit. Target roll dodges? Lose half your crit.

Once that person is no longer blue, their crit almost invariably will fall to below 20% and they are extremely weak for 3 times longer than they were blue for. That's the compromise.

This is a learn to play issue, not an abuse issue. As I said before, a build with 50% crit will outperform an MA build and allow you to survive longer than a player using MA. MA is a meme at this point.

100%

Andre_Noir

Aldoss wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

No way. Every stat and tactic require certain investment but with MA everyone can get 100% crit chance that impossible even with a full crit gear. There is no skill only abuse of a broken set

No. Please stop.

Yes, pls stop. Lay stun from Dawnbreaker or Incap so pop Balorgh and delete almost anyone. And even if that victim dare to survive then nothing will save it from spintowin

Aldoss wrote: »

This is a learn to play issue, not an abuse issue. As I said before, a build with 50% crit will outperform an MA build and allow you to survive longer than a player using MA. MA is a meme at this point.

So you will learn to play without it then. Said stats will never outperform MA in case of timed burst and pvp just highlight that. If your lie was true then everyone would just runs in crit builds, but hey procs, shields, HA and burst heals just don't scale with crit

Aldoss

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Yes, pls stop. Lay stun from Dawnbreaker or Incap so pop Balorgh and delete almost anyone. And even if that victim dare to survive then nothing will save it from spintowin

So you will learn to play without it then. Said stats will never outperform MA in case of timed burst and pvp just highlight that. If your lie was true then everyone would just runs in crit builds, but hey procs, shields, HA and burst heals just don't scale with crit

Sounds like you're saying Balorgh is overperforming. Should we all raise our pitchforks and light the torches?

I have one of my 10 pvp toons using MA, and while it is one of the best burst sets in the game, the over prevalence of its use right now is nothing more than people jumping on a bandwagon - exactly like all the people who are running pariah and stage 3 vamp, but have no idea why people are recommending it. Some people legitimately think pariah was a new set added in last patch and that's why it's meta right now.

If the devs once again read a post like this one and make the mistake of nerfing it, I literally won't notice. However, I will make sure to state the whole way that constantly demanding and nerfing the new meta every patch is a great way to turn a great game into a mediocre game.

Learn to play and learn to recognize the cost/benefit of someone who waits to build up 500 ult points before they "get to play the game" for 5 seconds, only to retreat until they can do it again. It's not how I choose to play, but it is a legit play style that does not need to become extinct because some people get their feelings hurt at getting deleted by it.