Does Zos listen to its player base?

Ghanima_Atreides

I loathe having to watch twitch streams masquerading as information posts, video tutorials when a written one would do, and anything of the sort. I don't enjoy listening to someone talk, I just want to get my information in an efficient manner and move on. I do hate the fact that it's become "the norm" to make videos of *everything*.

DTStormfox

Yes they do listen all the time

Yes, they listen to constructive feedback all the time

mzprx

No they do not listen at all

IMO they don't. listen nor care. about what the players say..

allow me to elaborate -

people can have different opinions about game mechanics, balance, things like that. ZOS will still do what they deem is correct. which, in many cases, is quite the opposite. but there is one universal truth - they want our money. the only reason they made this game (or any other games) is to get into our wallets. so when the community asks for something they want to buy one would think that a "listening company" would try to milk that idea ASAP. especially if it wasn't just one lonely dude lurking in the shadows somewhere. i have mentioned this in another thread(s), but it's worth repeating, IMO. the most dominant class (by numbers) is Magicka Sorcerer. and every MagSorc and their mothers loathe the look of their pets (the scamp and tormentor/matriarch). a vast majority would immediately pay for the ability to put a skin on their pets. and it wouldn't be too difficult or game breaking either. we already have different versions of scamps as pets. so being able to simply re-apply the skin on my pet scamp shouldn't be an issue. Wardens have a bear skin. that wasn't too difficult, right? and we cried about that, we made posts, we begged. we offered money. ZOS didn't listen. so if they don't listen to ideas that would make them a boatload of money why would anyone think they will listen to any other ideas?

we can go on and on. instead of costumes that no one uses how about being able to buy the option to change our hair colour? like we can change our hair styles, if we buy the hair style pack? would many of us pay for that? sure thing. have we mentioned this once or twice? sure we did. is it too difficult of game breaking? nope. so why not do it? because you can say or suggest whatever you want ZOS don't listen to you. sadly..

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I loathe having to watch twitch streams masquerading as information posts, video tutorials when a written one would do, and anything of the sort. I don't enjoy listening to someone talk, I just want to get my information in an efficient manner and move on. I do hate the fact that it's become "the norm" to make videos of *everything*.

I don't disagree, but this is stuff Rich is doing off hours.

Shawn_PT

I have always said that the only way for them to actually get an opinion from the community is to include small polls in the game. Like, when we log in we're slapped with the Crown Store ad. Why not add there a little section of "We want your opinion!" But make it simple. Really simple. Would you like this (yes, no), did you like this implementation and would you like to see more like them (yes, no), which of these themes is your favourite for future content (list, can check multiple maybe). No room for ranting--I mean explanations. Yes, or no. Simple. Concise. No grey areas. If the player feels they want to answer with neither or don't care, just skip the poll entirely.

This would give them a clear amount of votes from people who actually play the game, instead of having the opinions of some be worth more than those of others.

Destai

Yes they do listen all the time

Shawn_PT wrote: »

I have always said that the only way for them to actually get an opinion from the community is to include small polls in the game. Like, when we log in we're slapped with the Crown Store ad. Why not add there a little section of "We want your opinion!" But make it simple. Really simple. Would you like this (yes, no), did you like this implementation and would you like to see more like them (yes, no), which of these themes is your favourite for future content (list, can check multiple maybe). No room for ranting--I mean explanations. Yes, or no. Simple. Concise. No grey areas. If the player feels they want to answer with neither or don't care, just skip the poll entirely.

This would give them a clear amount of votes from people who actually play the game, instead of having the opinions of some be worth more than those of others.

No. Absolutely not. I'm incensed enough I have to deal with that pop-up ad in game as a subscriber, I don't need a poll every time too. The only way I'd accept it if it's opt-in, not opt out. We need a less noisy experience if nothing else. They have marketing emails and these forums, which they actually should leverage more.

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

starkerealm wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

They listen. It's not even a question. It's just that they don't cater to our every (conflicting) whim.

How do you know this?

Because I've met them.

Perhaps you have, but you have no facts to back that up, so it is just another Internet claim.

The problem though is not just knowing some of what is said, it is listening. Merely hearing the words is not enough, understanding the point and reasoning is the key aspect. That is not clear at all so it is not happening.

If you really do talk to all the devs, them disregarding so many QoL requests as "every whim" shows a severe lack of listening as well!

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

starkerealm wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The comment about console hardware limits came from one of Rich's recent streams on Twitch.

I had a suspicion this might be the case. I do wish Rich would spend a bit more time writing up this kind of information in readable, searchable form and a bit less time making videos but I'm probably just showing my age at this point ... now get off my lawn!

I'm not that much younger than you, and Rich is older than both of us. His streams are more of a conversation, so it's not really a video, or even a performance, he's engaging with, and talking the community, often while also running vMA or vet dungeons.

So, yeah, it might be a little weird starting out. It certainly was for me as well, but it is worth checking out.

It may be, but completely ignoring this forum and having a YouTube video be the main source is not good communications.

I have to listen to all of every video he has to find out their thoughts? Does that really happen?

Though as I just noted, the idea that all the requests are all "whims" is a really bad attitude for any company to have.

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

DTStormfox wrote: »

Yes, they listen to constructive feedback all the time

What evidence to participants in these forums have of this? Many posts about QoL issues (such as gathering surveys) have had many productive solutions noted. But then your comment doesn't say what their source of such claimed "constructive feedback" is and how much of the total feedback is constructive.

It is clear they do not listen to much of it. I wouldn't have restarted on the PC for the MASSIVE in-game benefits addons give if they listened and put many of those things in the game (or at least made them in-game options). I could (and may in the future) note many of those, but it would likely be a waste of time since I doubt any would get attention and people like you would keep claiming it was not productive.

I had 3 years of my PS4 time (and all that entails, including many Crowns) wasted due to this change. It still irks me, but I do like the game, so I may keep going anyway. My concerns may not all be perfect, but they are not inherently non-constructive as you imply.

They have an advantage that I did not like the interface with FF XIV Online when I tried it lately. Otherwise these annoyances might push me to switch. I am not a whale by any means, but I will likely spend $300-400 on Crowns during the next sale. That will not make or break them, but it is a chunk, at least for some players.

Dropstitch

No they do not listen at all

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

Yes, they listen to constructive feedback all the time

What evidence to participants in these forums have of this? Many posts about QoL issues (such as gathering surveys) have had many productive solutions noted. But then your comment doesn't say what their source of such claimed "constructive feedback" is and how much of the total feedback is constructive.

It is clear they do not listen to much of it. I wouldn't have restarted on the PC for the MASSIVE in-game benefits addons give if they listened and put many of those things in the game (or at least made them in-game options). I could (and may in the future) note many of those, but it would likely be a waste of time since I doubt any would get attention and people like you would keep claiming it was not productive.

I had 3 years of my PS4 time (and all that entails, including many Crowns) wasted due to this change. It still irks me, but I do like the game, so I may keep going anyway. My concerns may not all be perfect, but they are not inherently non-constructive as you imply.

They have an advantage that I did not like the interface with FF XIV Online when I tried it lately. Otherwise these annoyances might push me to switch. I am not a whale by any means, but I will likely spend $300-400 on Crowns during the next sale. That will not make or break them, but it is a chunk, at least for some players.

I think the earlier poster used some backward reasoning, i.e. if ZOS used it the criticism must have been constructive, and if ZOS didn't use it, then it wasn't.

essi2

When it suits them

lordxyrax_ESO

Yes they do listen all the time

Yes they listen quite often. They listen to the PvP customers when it comes to balancing PvE gear and listen to the PvE customers when it comes to balancing PvP gear.

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

They listen. It's not even a question. It's just that they don't cater to our every (conflicting) whim.

How do you know this?

Because I've met them.

Perhaps you have, but you have no facts to back that up, so it is just another Internet claim.

Not everyone who blathers on the internet is unable to provide any form of proof.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Though as I just noted, the idea that all the requests are all "whims" is a really bad attitude for any company to have.

Well, "every whim," was my phrase, not theirs.

Destai

Yes they do listen all the time

DTStormfox wrote: »

Yes, they listen to constructive feedback all the time

They don’t though. And as far as I can tell, their definition of constructive is different than ours.

I myself have tagged @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno on multiple threads for QoL issues asking for input in a very professional manner, and they have yet to address any of them. Myself and many others have called this out as a very specific and visible pain point. It’s pretty frustrating, putting in effort to come here, leaving detailed feedback, and then asking just for receipt, only to get ignored. Why is it so hard to recognize input? It’s not a contract.

Just as an illustration:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7346668#Comment_7346668
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7334801#Comment_7334801
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7333759#Comment_7333759
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7328998#Comment_7328998
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7324947#Comment_7324947
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578761/leyawiin-would-be-a-great-crafting-spot-and-turn-in/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578667/what-do-you-dislike-hate-about-this-game/p1

It’s not to say they don’t listen at all, because they certainly do and they’re actively improving. It just seems there’s a blind spot around specific areas, most notably QOL requests. I see acknowledgment of some bugs, player creations, and patch notes. It’s something, but I think they need to address the elephant in the room. We all see it.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

No they do not listen at all

Necromancer's "stalking blastbones" morph has been essentially broken for well over a year.

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

Dropstitch wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

Yes, they listen to constructive feedback all the time

What evidence to participants in these forums have of this? Many posts about QoL issues (such as gathering surveys) have had many productive solutions noted. But then your comment doesn't say what their source of such claimed "constructive feedback" is and how much of the total feedback is constructive.

It is clear they do not listen to much of it. I wouldn't have restarted on the PC for the MASSIVE in-game benefits addons give if they listened and put many of those things in the game (or at least made them in-game options). I could (and may in the future) note many of those, but it would likely be a waste of time since I doubt any would get attention and people like you would keep claiming it was not productive.

I had 3 years of my PS4 time (and all that entails, including many Crowns) wasted due to this change. It still irks me, but I do like the game, so I may keep going anyway. My concerns may not all be perfect, but they are not inherently non-constructive as you imply.

They have an advantage that I did not like the interface with FF XIV Online when I tried it lately. Otherwise these annoyances might push me to switch. I am not a whale by any means, but I will likely spend $300-400 on Crowns during the next sale. That will not make or break them, but it is a chunk, at least for some players.

I think the earlier poster used some backward reasoning, i.e. if ZOS used it the criticism must have been constructive, and if ZOS didn't use it, then it wasn't.

That is flawed reasoning, as you imply.

starkerealm wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

They listen. It's not even a question. It's just that they don't cater to our every (conflicting) whim.

How do you know this?

Because I've met them.

Perhaps you have, but you have no facts to back that up, so it is just another Internet claim.

Not everyone who blathers on the internet is unable to provide any form of proof.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Though as I just noted, the idea that all the requests are all "whims" is a really bad attitude for any company to have.

Well, "every whim," was my phrase, not theirs.

And that is a problem. Even using that (yours or theirs) negates anything you or they don't like, no matter if the claim is accurate.

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

@FloppyTouch, if you ever work retail, or any other customer facing position, you'll start to understand my attitude. Doesn't matter if it's community management, or just working retail.

The customer is not always right.

The customer is not privy to internal information.

This is something I deal with a lot in my day job.

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

starkerealm wrote: »

@FloppyTouch, if you ever work retail, or any other customer facing position, you'll start to understand my attitude. Doesn't matter if it's community management, or just working retail.

The customer is not always right.

The customer is not privy to internal information.

This is something I deal with a lot in my day job.

So? This is not working a McDonalds job. This is a product that makes money by getting people to play it regularly.

Though even a fast food job needs to pay good attention to their customers or they will lose them.

What you say here is far different from having NO RESPONSE to comments on so many QoL suggested changes.

Gleitfrosch

No they do not listen at all

Have to say they don't.

There are too many decisions and changes that doesn't make sense, except for dumbing down the game to attract more "thinking is boring, where is my reward?" players.

If the next DLC will be also dumbed down (what I expect) then Blackwood will be the last DLC I bought. Have enough of being forced to play an idiot.

Parrot1986

Options in the poll are poor so not going to answer either of those. I don’t believe they listen to every bit of feedback since they get so much across so many different sources this is pretty much impossible and they obviously listen to feedback because they do implement some of the feedback players give.

For me the reality is they listen to player feedback most of the time.

The issue I have with zos is more around communication.

They don’t need to take on board every bit of feedback they get, sometimes that feedback goes directly against their vision and strategy and in that case it’s fine not to make changes but we really don’t get any update on what the long term goals are so we don’t know what this vision is and we feel ignored.

We got the “year of performance” which was well communicated but pretty poorly executed and the games performance is still quite poor in pvp especially although pve has improved for me at least.

That update though gave a detailed timeline of deliverables over 12+ months and we could see what zos was working on. We knew with that being the focus other changes were unlikely especially if they were big changes and it didn’t feel like you were being ignored.

Now we have no idea what their long term view of combat system and skill balancing is. We have no ideas what their plans for class identity is. Even a 12 month roadmap would be really useful.

We had a revamp of CP and the idea was this was the base system and it would be added to. Since then it’s only been nerfing things and adding in some new options but not giving us more ways to use them really.

There’s no communication to what zos are working too, is it more passives but also 4 slottables, are we getting more slottables but they are less impactful to prevent too much power creep? We are giving feedback blind a lot of the time which means we will always feel ignored because what we are saying might be the total opposite of where zos are going.

The main issue I have is not so much zos doesn’t act on our feedback. Zos can and should go in the direction they see best for the game. Ofc take on board player feedback as well but they have experts in game design and development there who should be able to drive this.

You build a new car by doing focus groups and finding out what customers want and look for in terms of style and accessories etc that wrap around the car however the engineers are the ones who create the actual car and design how that works. This is the same for me.

The issue I have is that they ask for it far too late and don’t do enough testing up front to figure out if their approach works which creates far too much feedback for them to be able to handle.

Too many times we have gone into a PTS had changes go in the players instantly knew were terrible but zos can’t immediately back it out and we end up either with weeks or even months until the next patch with something being overpowered and broken.

A way I see this getting better is, I’d rather move away from the quarterly update release cycles and do 2 per year. One is an expansion with trials and dungeons plus any large system/racial/new class etc in it and the other is a story and dungeon dlc. I’d also like a more ongoing story to be happening rather than one that lasts 12 months and is almost forgetten and we move onto the next calamity. There’s now flow and no time to really get that invested in it or characters as they tend to move on for the most part.
I’m not including pvp as well since accepted that pvp just doesn’t get any attention so why bother.

Put more content into those updates, make Pts last 12 weeks instead of 6 and make those updates much more positive and impactful.

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@FloppyTouch, if you ever work retail, or any other customer facing position, you'll start to understand my attitude. Doesn't matter if it's community management, or just working retail.

The customer is not always right.

The customer is not privy to internal information.

This is something I deal with a lot in my day job.

So? This is not working a McDonalds job. This is a product that makes money by getting people to play it regularly.

Though even a fast food job needs to pay good attention to their customers or they will lose them.

What you say here is far different from having NO RESPONSE to comments on so many QoL suggested changes.

I'll admit, I've never worked fast food.

That said, I have been in the position where hearing a customer say, "I'm taking my business elsewhere," is cause for (a private) celebration. I know, it's supposed to be a threat, but, they're telling the employees that they'll no longer have to listen to any of their demands.

Businesses need customers. It is impossible to keep every individual happy. And, you will torture yourself if you try, and actually reduce the quality of the products you're selling in the attempt, because you're too focused on the whims of one rather than delivering a quality product. If someone's not satisfied with their options, and it would take more effort than they're worth to accommodate, they can live in disappointment. Don't believe me? Try ordering a McRib out of season.

So, where's ZOS on QoL stuff? They're working on stuff. I'm not privy to exactly what. There is a pretty solid rule about not talking about what's coming up, and I respect the members of the team I know, not to broach the subject. Especially since plans change, based on information we don't have.

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Put more content into those updates, make Pts last 12 weeks instead of 6 and make those updates much more positive and impactful.

That one might not be possible without doing one of two things. First, putting the content on the PTS in a much rougher state than we're used to seeing. I'm talking, animations not being finished, hot-pink zero textures on items, etc. I've actually seen this, including on the convention builds for Murkmire and Southern Elsweyr.

The other option would be to push back the actual release dates. But, that's also a bitter pill.

Like, if it was possible to have longer PTS cycles, that would be great. That said, I suspect (and, this entirely my bias), that part of the problem with the PTS isn't, so much, that there isn't enough time, as players simply aren't doing anything on the PTS. A handful of people run the new dungeons, or wander around the new zone, but there's often very little testing going on. I'd love to see the actual statistics for how many people run the new trials while they're still on PTS. I can't imagine it's a particularly large number.

adriant1978

starkerealm wrote: »

@FloppyTouch, if you ever work retail, or any other customer facing position, you'll start to understand my attitude. Doesn't matter if it's community management, or just working retail.

The customer is not always right.

The customer is not privy to internal information.

This is something I deal with a lot in my day job.

I work in a customer service oriented job and the customer is most definitely not always right. In fact a goodly part of my job is essentially coming up with creative and diplomatic ways to tell customers that they are wrong, and that I have a solution which will work better for both of us. What I really couldn't get away with doing though is stonewalling the customer and ignoring requests which I don't feel like dealing with for whatever reason. Now such interactions for me are typically one to one or sometimes small group to small group, whereas ZOS is a large organisation dealing with a large and diverse group of customers, so it's not a perfect analogy by any means.

That said, it still irks me that ZOS are remarkably uncommunicative on these forums, seemingly preferring just about any other medium you can think of for what customer engagement they do partake in. I believe that feeds into an impression that they do not listen and do not care about comments and requests. I can only speculate on why that might be. Maybe they think forums are old hat and Twitch is where all the cool kids are nowadays, maybe their customer engagement team are of the opinion that email surveys generate better feedback than a forum poll, maybe they see the atmosphere around this place and decide they don't really want to be part of it, or maybe it's just some corporate policy for higher up.

I can certainly understand how it might depress someone though to write a well thought out and constructive feedback post and receive at the very best a generic "that's nice, thanks for your suggestions" type reply. I get that times have changed and this is not the early days of TES when supposedly the devs used to roleplay on the forums, but I really don't think it would kill them to be a little more interactive around here.

The customer is not always right, but the customer likes to feel noticed.

Wolf_Eye

They do listen to players, but I feel like they don't always understand or explore solutions that would make the majority of players happy.

I'm not saying they're doing this maliciously, as I've come to understand, but the logic they follow oftentimes feels very difficult for me to comprehend. And I sometimes feel like they may be a little out of touch with what many players would feel is a more viable solution.

But also I feel fixes and easy solutions are not always easy to implement into the game without breaking something.

For example, they listened and implemented a couple of changes in housing for the upcoming update. They did also listen when people asked for proc free campaigns, even if they did not necessarily implement it the way many people wanted them to.

Sometimes, I also think they might take a "try it and wait and see" approach, gathering data on how players respond directly to a change.

Eldartar

Yes they do listen all the time

Yes they do, but you can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try, so there will always be moans and groans from some quarter or other. That's Life

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

They do listen to players, but I feel like they don't always understand or explore solutions that would make the majority of players happy.

Exactly!

Give a feeling of working toward a solution for QoL problems instead of (seeming at least) to ignore them.

Eldartar wrote: »

Yes they do, but you can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try, so there will always be moans and groans from some quarter or other. That's Life

What evidence do you have of them listening? Or do you assume since you dislike suggestions they must be listening?

Daffen

No they do not listen at all

Eldartar wrote: »

Yes they do, but you can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try, so there will always be moans and groans from some quarter or other. That's Life

Ah yes, everyone was happy to see that they would add a new no cp no proc no hammer server. However, nobody asked them to completely delete ravenwatch for this server. Everyone thought they were going to add a NEW server.

People are complaining about it on the forums now, but not everyone knows about it because they are playing the game rather than reading forums. Those same players will get smacked in the face with this new server.

FlopsyPrince

No they do not listen at all

One specific element that I was reminded I made in another thread just now: Sorting Styles. This has been a problem for the life of the game, yet they have not given any options about it. I am sure some here would argue against any sorting here, but it is not a bad request and something to make finding a specific style for those who haven't memorized the order would be worth the minimal effort it would take.

Yet not a peep has been given on the issue. How can some of you claim they respond well?

Saucy_Jack

I asked to have Pie King added to the official Elder Scrolls pantheon alongside Kynareth, Auri-El, and the rest - not just in ESO, but in all future Elder Scrolls games. And they didn't do it! Can you believe that?!?

starkerealm

Yes they do listen all the time

adriant1978 wrote: »

That said, it still irks me that ZOS are remarkably uncommunicative on these forums, seemingly preferring just about any other medium you can think of for what customer engagement they do partake in.

Yeah, there's history there. The devs used to be a lot more communicative on the boards. Rich's Twitch name, "Slashlurk," is a reference how he used to sign threads with, "/lurk" to indicate that the contents had caught his attention, and he was reading them. Beyond that, he used to post, Gina and Finn both used to be a lot more responsive on the boards. Wrobel was semi-active somewhere, in one of the subforums, if I remember correctly.

It wasn't an instantaneous change, and you'll still see the rare post from Finn or Brian, but Rich had an AMA thread going. There was a specific user who was being... let's call it, "less than constructive." They badgered him for seven or eight pages, and Rich eventually gave them the infamous quote: "You know you don't have to be here, right?"

That what the trolls wanted. They took screenshots, posted it out of context. Abused the hell out of it to the point that five or six years later, the devs are still reticent to post on the boards.

So, it's unfortunate, but there is history here.