The “High Elven Mindset” ?

Grandchamp1989

Just completed Summerset Zone and done most of the Auridon zone..
High Elves in the 2nd era are a lot more interesting than in ES: Skyrim.

But first i must make a disclaimer since High elves are.. well.. controversial.

Please keep the discussion about the LORE of Elder scrolls univserse, and lets keep real life "history" and "politics" out of it, even if you think real life happening would make for a perfect methaphor.... it just too charged - so lets talk ES lore with examples from the ES universe.

Now that the formalities are out of the way.. High Elves.

I think it is easy to interpret their mindset as a superiority complex and pure arrogance.

There is a quest in Summerset where The Divine Prosecution has lost a prisoner, and the one in charge says something along the line of “spilling Wine on your shirt is embarassing, this is a disgrace” it seems like they are a perfectionist society, always monitor each other and keep each other to the highest standards possible.
There is little tolerance for what's not right and perfect. It seems in High Elven eyes you're either completely on the right path and a person to be respected and admired, or you're an example of shame and lazyness.

I think this type of High elven society can breed a judgemental society that monitor each other, to make sure everyone perform with a high degree of efficiancy.
If you are an High elf who have always been expected to be "perfect" you may start to expect this standard from others. This may be why they look down on behavior of other TS races that is more relaxed in their ways. As Queen Ayrenn says something a long the lines of "They're children like".

Some High Elves may take this line of thinking to the extreme and become bitter, resentful and hateful.
If they cant have fun then nobody can.

Conclusion:
So this is my interpretation of the High Elven mindset - a very High performing, stressfull people with the weight of the world on their shoulder. Unfortunately a mindset they also rigorously apply to each other through an expectation of perfectionism.
Some High Elves becomes corrupted by this mindset and pressure, and take it to the extreme where they start to resent and look down on other races. The most extreme of these cases we see in TS Skyrim. While some of the best examples of High Elves are from the High Elves who've mastered their field without losing their patience with others in the process.

What is your interpretation on the High Elven mindset?
Lets keep it lore friendly and civil please.

StamPlar_1976

They are arrogant racists. No different than high elves of any other genre. For example, D&D high elves.

Ryuvain

StamPlar_1976 wrote: »

They are arrogant racists. No different than high elves of any other genre. For example, D&D high elves.

I agree but less harshly. No matter how you try to justify it, racism is racism. They can be all perfectionist as they like, but they put down other races just as much as dunmer do. That's why I don't like most of either in general.

It's like trying to make this sound good: my race is superior because - insert whatever? -

Marto

I agree. I see many of the quests there as tragic stories.
Stories about people that have been ostracized and pushed away from society
Stories about people that have suffered greatly because of the pressure society puts on them.

High Elves are not inherently bad or evil. There's many great people in Summerset. There's enthusiastic zoologists, heroic sailors, openminded scholars, kind lovers...

But orthodox High Elf society shuns them. They are ignored, exiled, and forgotten. All because they don't conform to society's definition of "perfection".

The love and attention ends up going to corrupt politicians that are rewarded for their conservative views and cruelty. To sapiarchs who arrogantly claim to know everything, despite living isolated in a tower, refusing to learn from others.

I don't think it's a coincidence that in the main quest of Summerset, the day is saved by two daedric cultists, a khajiit, and a dumb outsider. And it's because of their different perspective and points of view that they were able to succeed, where High Elves couldn't.

Fischblut

So this is my interpretation of the High Elven mindset - a very High performing stressfull people with the weight of the world on their shoulder. Unfortunately a mindset they apply to each other by a level of perfectionism.
Some High Elves becomes corrupted by this mindset and pressure, and take it to the extreme where they start to resent and look down on other races.

It's very interesting!

Side quest in Summerset, dialogue options for Altmer character:



And Path to Alaxon as "perfection in everything" concept.

Vuylstekeara

It's no wonder they come across as condescending. Try to see it from their perspective; they have been training for decades, even centuries to master whatever profession they have chosen, and then some human, who isn't even half as old as the time they have spent on perfecting their craft, wants to be treated as equal. I would be pissed, too.

zvavi

Sounds about right.

corrosivechains

I mean, if you pay attention to most of the dialog from most races in the Elder Scrolls, it's hard to find a race which isn't, by our real life sensibilities, racist. It's a large reason why I hate the whole "Stormcloaks vs Imperials" discussions around Skyrim, because people who haven't really played any other games always default to real world comparisons and "wont somebody PLEASE think of the Dark Elves?!"...almost like they have absolutely no knowledge about the Dark Elves and their history.

Olauron

Some quotes from the PGE 1:
High elves consider themselves to be the only perfect race. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line, and are now almost identical to one another in appearance.

Breeding outside the pure line is a terrible, unthinkable crime, and taken as prima facia evidence of the tainted blood of the individual in question- if they were, they wouldn't have the impulse to do it. Exile to the mainland is regarded as equivalent to a death sentence, since there is no purpose in living outside their ideal society.

They have a high regard for order and gravitate naturally towards wearing uniforms and speaking in formal patterns. Their trees and their livestock have been bred to be as standard and ideal as they are.

Some quotes from The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel:
Auridon is but one of fourteen islands of varying sizes that form Summerset, which was settled directly from Aldmeris, the origin of magic and civilization upon Mundus, whether one cares to admit it or not.

They farmed the land, had limited hierarchical political aspirations, and worshipped the ancestors they believed descended directly from the Divines.

The High Elves (or Altmer as they insist on being called) prune and dig at their near surroundings in an effort to tame the rugged but beautiful countryside.

The carefully manicured "wilderness" of inner Auridon. I get the impression even the weeds were hand-placed.

Their structures provide a visual echo to the "High Elves"' appearance, as they try to contrast their structures with the abodes of other races.

Such structural design stem from ancient roots, using methods tried and tested, but not to the point of becoming obsolete. The Altmer seek refinement rather than innovation, and they are conceitedly resistant to large-scale changes but are content to tinker. The results reveal highly sophisticated precision, harmony, and the selection and repetition of orthodox compositions.

Exotic and ornate. Perplexing in its strength and rigidity. Comfortable and functional despite all the conventional understanding to the contrary. The glass armor of the Altmer has baffled even the most consummate Imperial craftsmen since the First Era. Our inability to replicate its durability and flexibility has induced apoplexy in previously levelheaded artisans. Somehow, Altmeri armorers are able to forge light and flexible bands of metal studded with glass. The resulting protection is interwoven at great expense but is preferable to steel due to its enhanced strength and ability to distribute and absorb impact damage. Such fine ligaments of protection show the great lengths to which the scornful Altmer will go to separate themselves from the much-belittled races of the mainland and their uncouth iron and steel suits.

Point is, Altmer are already the best, they seek perfection even more, so their attitude to lesser races is only logical.

VaranisArano

Consider that the High Elves consider the Aedra to be their ancestors. That belief colors most of what they do.

While humans claim to be created by immortal forces, the Aldmer, and thus the elven groups that developed from the Aldmer, claim descent from them.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth

And so in the Altmer philosophy, they feel that Lorkhan tricked their ancestors in the et-Ada, and that Mundus is somewhat of a prison.

Now, that belief and the effect it has on the Altmer comes up a lot in Michael Kirkbride's writings and other non-canon theories like the idea that the Thalmor are trying to destroy the Towers to unmake the world and return to their original godhood before Lorkhan tricked everyone into making Mundus. It makes for interesting speculation, to be sure.


What we see in ESO's Summerset is a preoccupation with genealogy, perfection of the physical self, and perfection at own's vocation, called Alaxon.

And yeah, it absolutely warps the High Elves. We see that some resort to skulduggery to compete for renown, or that others are so fixated on their view of what the one path is that they would try to force it on someone else despite not sharing the same interests. In the parts where it is meritocracy, like the College of Sapiarchs, it's highly competitive. We see that families have been torn apart by a serious error and marrying for love is extremely difficult above a certain rank and station. We see too that while the High Elves respect, say, farmers for seeking Alaxon through farming, it leaves them vulnerable when circumstances require more soldiers to keep the peace. It's a very rigid society that produces very capable, but also very blinkered individuals.


And what we've seen in ESO and other games and lorebooks is that the Altmer do think themselves superior than man and the other races. They are descended from the Aedra, not created, as man was. They still keep the lineage of the Aldmer, unlike the tainted Chimer/Dunmer or the mannish Bosmer.

So when they look down on other races, as a society, it comes from that place of descending from the gods and still maintaining the purity of that descent. And when they do it as individuals, it's typically coming from their innate superiority as pure descendants of the Aedra plus their capability based on years of practicing Alaxon in their vocation.

Hallothiel

Chaos2088 wrote: »

[snip]

What is that from?!

[edited to remove quote]

DaiKahn

Hallothiel wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

[snip]

What is that from?!

It's from a German fella. Series is called 'World of Wolfram' which can be found HERE

You'll be looking for World of Wolfram | Folge 2: Zelt

[edited to remove quote]

waterfairy

fyi there's a lore section here

JJOtterBear

I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.

It isn't until much later that the Altmer youth start to rebel against this ideology.

[edited for inappropriate content]

VaranisArano

JJOtterBear wrote: »

I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.

With regard to the last bit, you may be thinking of the 2nd Era Veiled Heritance and their ideals of elven supremacy, most notable in the College quest on Auridon.

The 2nd Era Thalmor of the 1st
Aldmeri Dominion are more in line with Queen Ayrenn's ideals, helping to keep the Dominion running properly and including Bosmer and Khajiit members in their ranks as well.

A good example of the distinction between the two is the College of Altmer Propriety. Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.

[edited to remove quote]

tomofhyrule

There's something that's always put me off about the Dominion, and it's that so much of the lore just seems to be at odds with other parts (namely Ayrenn's characterization), so there really seems to be no coherency.

It's reductionist to say that the stereotypical Altmer believes that Mer > Men (and of course Altmer > Other Mer > Orcs), but that's shown in so many ways in the game. Even if we discount the obviously racist Heritance, there are plenty of Altmer that casually throw out dialogue along those lines, especially in the Summerset expansion (see @VaranisArano 's analysis above). Not to mention that the chief propagandist of the Dominion wrote that the AD mission is to conquer Cyrodiil to rule Men for their own sake: "Our good queen had no choice but to form the Aldmeri Dominion to conquer Cyrodiil, and ensure for the good of all who dwell in Nirn that Men never again tamper with forces beyond their comprehension and competence."

And then you have Queen Ayrenn, who comes off as one of the only Altmer who doesn't believe it, which is just jarring as a non-AD in the leadup to the Coldharbour line. Like Emeric clearly is suspicious in his dialogue when meeting him if you’re not DC and during the moot on Stirk, and Jorunn is clearly as brash as ever meeting him and as he talks to (yells at) the other leaders, but she’s just really nice in both cases. I’m not seeing her with any real characterization as a non-AD beyond ‘little miss perfect.’ It almost feels like the writers forgot to develop or give her a flaw (or chose not to), and that just makes her seem a bit too perfect in comparison. Either that, or it seemed that the writers for the AD wanted to avoid making the 2E Dominion into the 4E Dominion, but ended up in a place where the lore was contradictory.

How do you reconcile her “we should all work together” dialogue with her alliance’s ideals of “only the Elves have the wisdom to rule you poor primitives”? Is she supposed to have a savior/messiah complex, or is she too naïve to realize people are only humoring her because she’s all bundled in prophecy, or is she basically a puppet for some figure who has a more stereotypical view of Aldmeri superiority but maybe thought the Heritance went too far?

There's a lot I don't understand about her. Really I ended up with a whole list of questions about her that I never really got a good answer to:
1) If Altmer live so long and have excessive ceremonial times to do literally anything (becoming a ruler takes 10 years of study, which she admittedly skipped), how is she getting *any* respect when she took the throne at 25? They made a decent deal about her being born in 2E 555, which means by the time of ESO she'd be the equivalent of a nine-year old in another culture (27/3 since Altmer can live 3x as long as Men). It would be *so* much more believable for her to be at least as old as Emeric (in her 60s - it's still young for an Altmer, but then believably so) and way older than Jorunn (30s). I get the Heritance exists, but it's implied that she does have supporters. I'm to believe that a young child, known to be rebellious, took the throne from a land of strict traditionalists, and yet they're not all against her rule?

2) Why does the Veiled Heritance (ostensibly the traditionalists) support her *younger* brother, who would have started his 10 year study around 2E 573 after she vanished, but would still not be done by 2E 580 when she returned? For that matter, based on the lore of Altmeri marriage, wouldn't it have taken ages to arrange his marriage to Estre? Is Estre also as young as him, or (I could buy) is she in her 100s and marrying for power because he's the son of the king?

3) Yes, yes, First Dominion vs. Third, but the goal of the First Dominion is still bringing Elven rule to Tamriel to rule over the 'lesser' races. But she's supposedly worldly, as we know from her exploits when she should have been studying to rule. But you don't see this goal of lording over the other races much in her dialogue at all. Based on what we know of Altmer culture, Ayrenn is the one who's counter to that, so what gives here? Again, how is she rallying support when she doesn't personally seem to believe in her alliance's cause?

4) It feels like they're trying to play up the '100% good but naïve princess' angle (which to me starts to encroach on Mary-Sue territory but that's beside the point), but again how is this even tolerated in as traditional and strict a culture as Summerset? I also can't help but notice she's the only one of the three leaders who's actively trying to negotiate at Stirk — again, why is she so forthcoming with them when her alliance's goals are literally to subjugate them (and is this also something along the lines of character shilling for her at the expense of Jorunn and Emeric, again a literary tactic that really turns me off of a character)?

In the end, I don't see a clear 'failure point' for the Dominion either. The Pact will obviously fail over time since it's an alliance of convenience and half of each of the member races don't follow it in the first place (Western Skyrim refuses Jorunn, the Dres/Telvanni refused the Pact to keep their slaves, and most of the tribes in Black Marsh refuse to work with the Dunmer). The Covenant is bound to infighting because every other reference for the Orcs talks about how Orsinium is always sacked by the Bretons/Redguards, and we get a whole started quest where that's offered as a potential fate. Not to mention the Breton intrigue that sadly is a bit underdeveloped, but will obviously lead to power struggles. But the Dominion always comes off as "we're super loving and inclusionary! Yeah, our propaganda says that, but it's not true at all! Stronger together " Again, in a grey/gray world, something without obvious flaws seems more 'lazy writing' than 'utopian.'

adriant1978

VaranisArano wrote: »

Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.

Maybe it's my own belief in High Elf stereotypes showing, but I can't help but detect a hint of insincerity in their tone even after the regime change.

"We welcome our Bosmer and Khajiiti allies into the Thalmor!"

"(now please don't kill us like you did the last group of teachers, or send Razum-dar)"

TwinLamps

Racist?

AcadianPaladin

All I know is my Bosmer felt more unwelcome in the homeland of the Dunmer than any other zone. Homeland to the Altmer was the second most unwelcoming zone.

TwinLamps

Now try it with Argonian

Woodenplank

corrosivechains wrote: »

I mean, if you pay attention to most of the dialog from most races in the Elder Scrolls, it's hard to find a race which isn't, by our real life sensibilities, racist. It's a large reason why I hate the whole "Stormcloaks vs Imperials" discussions around Skyrim, because people who haven't really played any other games always default to real world comparisons and "wont somebody PLEASE think of the Dark Elves?!"...almost like they have absolutely no knowledge about the Dark Elves and their history.

Dunmer in Skyrim: Ugh we have to live in the slum, the Nords don't treat us as equals, we're just poor refugees whose homeland got destroyed by Red Mountain!
Dunmer in Morrowind: Khajiit are thieving little animals that must raised with a firm hand to make good slaves, argonians are savage beasts incapable of enlightenment, Nords are savage beasts incapable of sobriety, everyone who isn't a dunmer is a filthy n'wah, actually everyone who isn't a Morrowind-born, House-Dunmer is a filthy n'wah.

Jazraena

Just about every culture/nation in TES is racist or otherwise deeply flawed. The Khajiit are probably the singular exception given they were happy to just live in harmony in their Sixteen Kingdoms, and were largely only drawn into the conflict of others. So, I keep being amazed at people pointing at Dunmer and occasionally Altmer in that regard. Sure, slavery evil, but the Empire violently subjugating most of the continent and legalizing necromancy somehow gets a pass.

AYRENN!
The problem, I suspect, is that she is the rightful Queen, and Altmer are both reluctant to mess with tradition and glacial to move. Her very mismatch with her own culture might well be the future failing point of the Dominion. If the Veiled Heritance had waited a bit longer... Well.

Ippokrates

Personally the most interesting part of their culture I found in the Manichaeism inspirations. In a sense that they had existed as perfect beings in the Aetherium but were taken down to the Nirn as a result of manipulation by Lorkhan. So now they are stuck with some walking lizards, sloada in hiding and... Humans.

(Although there is a very interesting theory done by Fudge Muppet that humans might be descendants of dragons - check YT, it is quite nice explained on example of Ysgramor)

Olauron

tomofhyrule wrote: »

How do you reconcile her “we should all work together” dialogue with her alliance’s ideals of “only the Elves have the wisdom to rule you poor primitives”? Is she supposed to have a savior/messiah complex, or is she too naïve to realize people are only humoring her because she’s all bundled in prophecy, or is she basically a puppet for some figure who has a more stereotypical view of Aldmeri superiority but maybe thought the Heritance went too far?
'

There is difference between creating the last alliance (after other two have already started the fight for Cyrodiil) to prevent them from doing the same mistakes as all previous human rulers and understanding the threat of Molag Bal to Nirn. For elves protecting the world from daedra is more important than fighting with other races.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

1) If Altmer live so long and have excessive ceremonial times to do literally anything (becoming a ruler takes 10 years of study, which she admittedly skipped), how is she getting *any* respect when she took the throne at 25? They made a decent deal about her being born in 2E 555, which means by the time of ESO she'd be the equivalent of a nine-year old in another culture (27/3 since Altmer can live 3x as long as Men). It would be *so* much more believable for her to be at least as old as Emeric (in her 60s - it's still young for an Altmer, but then believably so) and way older than Jorunn (30s). I get the Heritance exists, but it's implied that she does have supporters. I'm to believe that a young child, known to be rebellious, took the throne from a land of strict traditionalists, and yet they're not all against her rule?

She has respect of many altmers, because she is an heir (the rightful elder child of the king) and she was born under the special date ("Princess Ayrenn was born on the 5th of Second Seed in the year 555 of the Second Era—a very auspicious date, though I will spare you the reasons why, as you lack the context to comprehend its full significance. However, you can believe me when I tell you all Summerset, Auridon, and Artaeum celebrated her birth for fifty-five days.").

tomofhyrule wrote: »

2) Why does the Veiled Heritance (ostensibly the traditionalists) support her *younger* brother, who would have started his 10 year study around 2E 573 after she vanished, but would still not be done by 2E 580 when she returned? For that matter, based on the lore of Altmeri marriage, wouldn't it have taken ages to arrange his marriage to Estre? Is Estre also as young as him, or (I could buy) is she in her 100s and marrying for power because he's the son of the king?

Some have already calculated the benefits from the alliance with Naemon (mostly nobles). Others had no choice (like the altmer workers on Auridon who lost their job to bosmer and khajiit due to "wise" Ayrenn's decisions, see some quests on Auridon).

tomofhyrule wrote: »

3) Yes, yes, First Dominion vs. Third, but the goal of the First Dominion is still bringing Elven rule to Tamriel to rule over the 'lesser' races. But she's supposedly worldly, as we know from her exploits when she should have been studying to rule. But you don't see this goal of lording over the other races much in her dialogue at all. Based on what we know of Altmer culture, Ayrenn is the one who's counter to that, so what gives here? Again, how is she rallying support when she doesn't personally seem to believe in her alliance's cause?

Imperial and Covenant goal is to bring human rule over the lesser races. Pact is not very different with nords, dunmers and gods.
Ayrenn doesn't speak about foreign affairs much with our character. Her first goal is to protect the AD (as seen in the last quest in Reapers March). Her second goal is to restore elven rule in WGT. The first gives her bosmer and khajiit followers (as well as orc and argonian, as we can see in some quests). The second gives her most support on the Isles.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

4) It feels like they're trying to play up the '100% good but naïve princess' angle (which to me starts to encroach on Mary-Sue territory but that's beside the point), but again how is this even tolerated in as traditional and strict a culture as Summerset? I also can't help but notice she's the only one of the three leaders who's actively trying to negotiate at Stirk — again, why is she so forthcoming with them when her alliance's goals are literally to subjugate them (and is this also something along the lines of character shilling for her at the expense of Jorunn and Emeric, again a literary tactic that really turns me off of a character)?

That's because she actually understands that a daedra lord claiming the First Tower (the Main Tower) can destroy everything and there will be nothing to fight for.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In the end, I don't see a clear 'failure point' for the Dominion either. The Pact will obviously fail over time since it's an alliance of convenience and half of each of the member races don't follow it in the first place (Western Skyrim refuses Jorunn, the Dres/Telvanni refused the Pact to keep their slaves, and most of the tribes in Black Marsh refuse to work with the Dunmer). The Covenant is bound to infighting because every other reference for the Orcs talks about how Orsinium is always sacked by the Bretons/Redguards, and we get a whole started quest where that's offered as a potential fate. Not to mention the Breton intrigue that sadly is a bit underdeveloped, but will obviously lead to power struggles. But the Dominion always comes off as "we're super loving and inclusionary! Yeah, our propaganda says that, but it's not true at all! Stronger together " Again, in a grey/gray world, something without obvious flaws seems more 'lazy writing' than 'utopian.'

The problem of the Dominion and the problem of Ayrenn is that she doesn't understand the bad side of working together. She is too idealistic.

Monte_Cristo

tomofhyrule wrote: »

3) Yes, yes, First Dominion vs. Third, but the goal of the First Dominion is still bringing Elven rule to Tamriel to rule over the 'lesser' races. But she's supposedly worldly, as we know from her exploits when she should have been studying to rule. But you don't see this goal of lording over the other races much in her dialogue at all. Based on what we know of Altmer culture, Ayrenn is the one who's counter to that, so what gives here? Again, how is she rallying support when she doesn't personally seem to believe in her alliance's cause?

I'm sure there was a line in Auridon where she says that she'd rather an elven baby sit on the ruby throne than a human.

Kingdomkeepers69_ESO

This is why I support Alessia and Pelinal Senpai.

Jackey

.

corrosivechains

Jackey wrote: »

I think the Altmer are interesting. They are the elite, the superior race according to Altmer themselves.
One would think it's racist because we relate to real world humans, but remember, humans from earth does not exist in this universe. Men and mer are two different species.

Have you read the Real Barrnzia?
She's a Dunmer, I know. But it shows a perspective between men and mer.
Is Altmer the superior mer race?
I don't think so but they are the closest race to the Aldmer, which would make them the most "elviest" elves in Tamriel.
But I don't think they are the superior race in Tamriel.

And heck, the Imperials, a men species, is currently ruling Tamriel in elderl scrolls timeline.

We'll see where bgs is going with the timeline in ES6.

Men and Mer are different subsets of the same species, both being descended from the Earthbones/Ehlnofey. This is why they are able to interbreed while there's no solid examples of Argonian or Khajiit halfbreeds(though the rumors do exist in lore).

Radiance

Ik you said not to mention real life but I believe it has something to do with the fact they live to be 300+ years old similarly with the Dunmer.

If you use real life as an example as to how Older generations look down in disgust at young people and shape laws and societal expectation based on tradition and past wars and rivalries that are long past relevant.

Now just imagine that generation disparity times 100 when you consider a young adult, say 21 year old living in the same world as a 221 year old.

Ask yourself if you want your entire race, country or culture to be judged by the actions and toxic worldview of a generation that no longer represents the general population but still have a stronghold in positions of power and societal influence due to seniority, royalty and the simple fact they live so long.

And even so, there are many exceptions to the rule, the most notable of which would most certainly be Count Verandis Ravenwatch who has not only overcome the Altmer societal toxicity but also the ravenous vampiric affliction. He is kind and self-sacrificing. There are also many others you meet along the way that, while completely self-absorbed and oblivious, aren't bad or hateful people. Artists and scholars and warriors alike.

Maybe i'm making excuses but there is a reason the main questline is fighting against Alt-supremacists. It is a known flaw and stain on their cultural history and undeniable present but there are still many among them who are fighting back against it.

Don't let your completely just disdain for bigotry blind you to the good and lump them in as a whole and in turn become what you hate about them.

JJOtterBear

VaranisArano wrote: »

JJOtterBear wrote: »

I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.

With regard to the last bit, you may be thinking of the 2nd Era Veiled Heritance and their ideals of elven supremacy, most notable in the College quest on Auridon.

The 2nd Era Thalmor of the 1st
Aldmeri Dominion are more in line with Queen Ayrenn's ideals, helping to keep the Dominion running properly and including Bosmer and Khajiit members in their ranks as well.

A good example of the distinction between the two is the College of Altmer Propriety. Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.

[edited to remove quote]

maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere.

cynicalbutterfly

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Just completed Summerset Zone and done most of the Auridon zone..
High Elves in the 2nd era are a lot more interesting than in ES: Skyrim.

But first i must make a disclaimer since High elves are.. well.. controversial.

Please keep the discussion about the LORE of Elder scrolls univserse, and lets keep real life "history" and "politics" out of it, even if you think real life happening would make for a perfect methaphor.... it just too charged - so lets talk ES lore with examples from the ES universe.

Now that the formalities are out of the way.. High Elves.

I think it is easy to interpret their mindset as a superiority complex and pure arrogance.

There is a quest in Summerset where The Divine Prosecution has lost a prisoner, and the one in charge says something along the line of “spilling Wine on your shirt is embarassing, this is a disgrace” it seems like they are a perfectionist society, always monitor each other and keep each other to the highest standards possible.
There is little tolerance for what's not right and perfect. It seems in High Elven eyes you're either completely on the right path and a person to be respected and admired, or you're an example of shame and lazyness.

I think this type of High elven society can breed a judgemental society that monitor each other, to make sure everyone perform with a high degree of efficiancy.
If you are an High elf who have always been expected to be "perfect" you may start to expect this standard from others. This may be why they look down on behavior of other TS races that is more relaxed in their ways. As Queen Ayrenn says something a long the lines of "They're children like".

Some High Elves may take this line of thinking to the extreme and become bitter, resentful and hateful.
If they cant have fun then nobody can.

Conclusion:
So this is my interpretation of the High Elven mindset - a very High performing, stressfull people with the weight of the world on their shoulder. Unfortunately a mindset they also rigorously apply to each other through an expectation of perfectionism.
Some High Elves becomes corrupted by this mindset and pressure, and take it to the extreme where they start to resent and look down on other races. The most extreme of these cases we see in TS Skyrim. While some of the best examples of High Elves are from the High Elves who've mastered their field without losing their patience with others in the process.

What is your interpretation on the High Elven mindset?
Lets keep it lore friendly and civil please.

I see them as being arrogant, snobbish, perfectionists. But they are like this because their ancestors passed down their ideals to their children and those children passed it on to theirs. So on down the line it goes. Eventually you get what we see in Summerset. A society built on perfection. Not all are like that though. There are many we meet outside of High Elven society that do not fit the general description. I see those as proof that given time, and some cultural exchanges, High elves can change their ideals.