We need to talk about ESO's difficulty level

SilverBride

Not everyone likes the same things, so if you don't find ESO fun the logical solution is to look for a game that is more to your liking. It is not reasonable to expect any game to completely change into something it isn't.

If you don't enjoy casual games, don't play a casual game.

Hymzir

Fine, let's talk about the difficulty then. Let's have a long talk about it, and yes, this is gonna be loooong....

So, the difficultly, what of it? It is what it is, because it is where it needs to be. Is it ideal? No, but one size fits all solutions seldom are, and they do not make everyone happy. Thems the breaks, and that is the reality we, and ZOS, has to live with.

And that one size fits all policy was a conscious decision on the part of ZOS. And by every conceivable metric, it was the right one to make. Before One Tamriel we had leveled zones, we had mudcrabs that could oneshot you, if you strayed into zones you were not ready for. (Didn't stop us from trying though...) It left most of the land empty. All the beginners were limited to the low level zones, and everyone who had reached level cap stayed in the endgame zones. Most of the land, that was in between the two, was empty. Only people there were those moving toward the endgame zone, never to return.

One Tamriel gave us it's own host of problems, but at least all the zones are now utilized. Sure, some places are still more popular than others, but they are all used, and no matter where you go, there is someone doing something. The world feels more alive.

While leveled mobs are silly, and pre-CP leveling makes you constantly weaker in raw stats (which feels weird), I doubt anyone is keen on the idea to return to leveled zones. And the leveled world makes selling new content lot easier too. Think about it, if the new expansion required you to do all the previous content in order for you to be ready for it, you would severely limit potential for new customers. Now you can sell new copies of the game to new players and have them get right on with the newest content, and to play with people who have been around for longer. What's the alternative? Sell max level character boosts? Not like that is an ideal solution either.

And for new players the game offers decent enough difficulty - not classic Doshia levels of it, but more than enough to force them to struggle a bit while they learn how the game works. And it is something they need to learn. You can't go around light attacking stuff to death in this game. (Well, you can, once you run a souped up end game build - but that light attacking wont work in endgame content though. Just in generic overland stuff.) But light attacks are where a lot of beginners start from. Attacks are attacks right? And abilities are spells you use to augment your attacks? Right? No. Not in ESO they are. Light attacks are an auxiliary thing you do, or the fallback for when you run out of resources. And Heavy attacks are not the big damage dealers, they are a frigging resource management mechanic. None of this stuff is intuitive, and it is something you have to learn. Maybe to veterans of other MMOs these things come naturally, but ESO attracts a lot of non-MMO players. And to them ESO mechanics are baffling at first. If you have ever mentored a beginner you probably know this from experience.

And it's not like the game doesn't offer harder content on the side - you got dungeons and arenas and you can always go get creamed in PVP - which you always do as a beginner - or you can join a progression guild and start doing trials. Eventually you will come to the end of the road and will run out of things that challenge you. Congrats, you beat the game, you reached the finishing line. At that point you either accept that you have mastered all the game has to offer and wait for new content, or go challenge yourself in some other game.

If you do find yourself in that situation, do note that you are the minority. And while increased difficulty would help to retain your interest and excitement to the game, it just isn't cost beneficial for ZOS to worry about that. They got bigger fish to fry. And they got the big picture to look at. Increasing difficulty is not something that can be worked into the game with a flick of a switch. It just isn't built that way. In fact, it's the opposite. It is built specifically to be the same everywhere and for everyone, regardless of the stats of their character or their personal expertise in playing the game. It is the same difficulty for everything everywhere.

Raising that difficulty on a general level would be disastrous for ZOS. While combat is a big part of ESO it is not the only thing. There are lot of casual gamers doing the quests only, many run non min maxed builds - more than likely they are sporting some weird RP hybrid build for which the default difficulty is just fine. And then there those who just wanna do their antiquities hunting without wasting anymore time than necessary with wrestling with some random bear or another. And then there are the housing people, who run around harvesting mats. They certainly are not looking to waste their time with fighting wolfs or goblins. And ZOS really does not wanna make their life any grindier or harder or aggravating than it already is. Just look at the crown store - those housing people are a major money maker for ZOS, and one could argue that they are much more targeted customer for ESO than anyone who is looking for challenge in overland content. So... No. A blanket increase in difficulty would not work, and would just prove disastrous for ZOS and the future of ESO.

So, the only way to add difficulty, would by means of some sort of debuff applied to your character. And as has been mentioned many times before, it would not make the game any harder. Just more tedious and time consuming, and would introduce it's own set of issues. Having players run about with different difficulty settings in a shared game space is rife for exploits and problematic behavior. And would also just lead to never ending petitions for added reward for the added difficulty. Which, if implemented, would cause even more problems, as it would then simply become the new default difficulty assumption. And that would not go well with the players and would prolly just make lot of them quit once and for all. So yeah, not ideal. Not to mention all the new bugs it would undoubtedly add to the game. And ESO has plenty of those already.

Take a moment and really think about that last bit. Bugs. I mean, look at the latest chapter update and all the things that it broke. Like how did they manage to introduce the range bug? How? How did the re-enabling of proc sets break range buffs in Cyro? I have no idea, and I don't think ZOS has either. It just happened, 'cause the game is made of multiple layers of spaghetti code, build on foundations that was based on a completely different set of design principles than what they are working on these days. Who knows how it all fits together. Based on how the game runs, I'd say poorly. It is barely keeping itself together and while I suppose it functions on some level, I can not claim in good conscience that it performs. Adding yet another layer into the mix will make things even harder moving onward.

And it's not like I don't understand the calls for extra difficulty, especially for quest bosses. I mean, it would be kinda novel for the boss of a quest to not die before it finishes it's evil guy monologue. These days they go up in flames mid sentence about how they will bust me up or something. Dunno, they just die so quickly.

At the same time though, I fully realize that I am not really the best metric upon which to base the one size fits all difficulty for quest or delve bosses. I've been around long enough to know how things work in ESO, and I have my beta monkey to prove it. I can kill world bosses on my own, clear veteran dungeons solo, and don't constantly die in PVP anymore. Increasing quest and delve boss health by 10 times would certainly keep me occupied for longer, and might actually force me to use a couple of potions while I manage my resources, but it would not really make things harder. That would require trickier mechanics, smarter AI, and gotcha moves I've never seen before. But that would not be possible in a shared gaming space with people who do not have the benefit of my years of experience.

So why not make all the quests and such instanced? Well... Actually, this has been asked before. Way before. Back when the zones were still leveled, and there were no CP, and bosses more or less offered relevant difficulty to your character level. Back then bots were spawn camping delve bosses, and people were standing in line to kill quest specific critters. So why not make all the solo content instanced to your character? Why not indeed?

Now do keep in mind, that this is going by memory, so I wont swear I remember all the details correctly, but it essentially boiled down to the way the game juggles these instanced zones. Every instance requires a bit of server resources to exist. That is, the game spawns these solitary instances as needed, and when they are done, the server resources get re-allocated elsewhere. Having too may instances at the same time will apparently strain the server architecture too much or something. As I said, I don't' remember the details, but the gist was that the way the game was designed, meant that it was not a good idea to spam too many instanced spaces. Thus most overland content takes place in shared space.

Maybe this has changed, maybe the new servers have more power and maybe this is possible these days. No one outside of ZOS can say for sure, but even if it is possible now, adding such feature will mean yet another layer to the game, and who knows what it will break. And there is always the potential for new exploits to creep in with such features, which will require more dev time to sort and fix. And it would make the shared world feel less alive, which goes contrary to the goals ZOS is aiming for. So as I have stated before, I have nothing against some optional difficulty added to the game (so long as it really and truly is fully optional and does not come with extra rewards or anything else like that), I just prefer the devs used their time on more pressing issues. Like FIXING THAT DAMN RANGED BUG!

- addendum -
Thought I was finished, but there is still one bit that I need to cover - Veteran Servers. Yeah, sure why not. Cool idea and all. Who's gonna pay for it? Servers are not cheap. And a Veteran version of Tamriel would require a new server. Several in fact, to cover all the platforms. And that means it would need a huge host of players to be worth it. And based on what ZOS has stated about the way their databases work, it's not like you could pop from one server to another when the mood hit you. No, you'd be stuck playing the veteran server. And the content would be the exact same as it was in the base game version. Because there would be zero point in developing content that was usable only on the veteran server. So it would be the exact same *** as the standard version, just grindier and more tedious. Who would play it? Maybe you, but I doubt enough would to justify the expense. Like who the hell would balance it and maintain it? The regular crew? They got enough on their hands with the vanilla version. It would require a whole new team to work on and that just does not make any fiscal sense.

Still, I'm not shooting it down completely, I mean ZOS has said in the past, that it is something they would like to have. However, seeing as that was years ago, and nothing has moved on that front, the cost benefit analysis prolly turned out to be negative. It could still happen, in X number of years or something, but would most likely require extensive rework of the base architecture for the game as a whole. And ZOS has more than enough on their plate keeping the current thing running, and making new content, and fixing the things they constantly break.

And who's to say what the world will look like in 4 or 5 years? Is ESO still around at that point? My guess is yes, but I doubt having a Veteran server will make any more sense then as it does now. New games will come and players will migrate to newer and shinier things. Do keep in mind that ESO is not WOW, that thing is an exception. It has the whole "the one the defined the genre" thing going for it. That thing will be around for 20 more years in some sort of legacy form of another, but ESO wont. At some point there will be ESO 2, or something like that, and maybe ZOS ,or whoever it is that will make it, has the forethought to build in variable difficulty architecture from the get go. But I doubt we will ever see it in ESO.

Rust_in_Peace

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Overland is open to everyone. You at 1800CP with your Godslayer mount and that level 10 are going to be hitting the same boss. The devs cannot balance the boss to be fun yet challenging to you both. They can either make it so the level 10 gets instantly wrecked and doesn't stand a chance, or so that you are mildly put off by how easy it is. They choose the latter, and I don't really see why they shouldn't.

But how much content does there need to be for a level 10. Because currently it's the vast majority of the content. Does that make sense?

We don't roll our eyes at a wheelchair ramp at the sandwich shop because how many people are in wheelchairs, anyways, we understand as a society that some things need to be accessible to everyone.

Just because you build a wheelchair ramp for one person also doesn't mean everyone needs to start using wheelchairs and taking the ramp which is what your analogy here would equate to.

Iccotak

nukk3r wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

It's not worth it if A. You can't make money on it. B it angers the majority of players who are casual and spend the majority of the money in game. C. If you T-off these casuals pretty soon you will find empty servers. This thread keeps popping up the subject is old. If you want difficult do the vet content because that is what it's designed for. Overland is not designed to present a challenge it's a story for your character to complete as in adventure not designed to bunny hop mechanics or run in a circle around a boss. If you want action play a action game.

Simple - make a Veteran Mode for Overland that applies to the whole game but you have to buy a chapter to access it.

Just like Antiquities was applied to the whole game but you needed Greymoor to access it.

also if I want anything challenging or more importantly Engaging - then I have to play endgame / group content.

Why does engaging story & lore have to be mutually exclusive from engaging gameplay? Why should zones ONLY be for one type of player?

Just curious, how many times can one repeat the same quests that always have the same outcome?

How many times do you play the new chapter?
How many times do you play through ALL the zones?

I still haven't gotten around to finishing Cadwell's Gold because the gameplay just is not fun.

I want a new chapter zone to be something to look forward to, with a risk of danger.

Like I said earlier

I also love lore and storytelling but I definitely do NOT love it when a Big Bad is a Big Joke after the story spent 10-20 hours, or even up to a year, hyping them up.

The Story Content should not just be for the Very New or the Very Casual player. It's accessible sure but it's not fun for everyone to do. Key word being Fun, the story & questing is not fun for a lot of people because of the gameplay -- which is important because this is an mmo that is also heavily centered around action combat.

People go on and on about all the good writing and all the exploration and how that should be fun enough. There's a ton of content that I'd like to do, but the gameplay is so unbelievably boring and I cannot get excited for a New "Year Long Adventure" that I know is going to be incredibly easy.

The journey becomes a walking simulator and the destination is very underwhelming

---

Ingenon wrote: »

Anyway, I have a question for you folks that say overland is too easy. Are you able to solo complete all the game world base dailies on a level 10 alt with mismatched gear and no CP? In all the zones? I'm not asking if you can complete them while you have all CP allocated and while wearing full endgame gear. I'm asking about you doing every one of them as a new player would, with no CP and the mismatched gear you get from doing overland quests. Because if you can't, then ZOS does not have to up the difficulty on overland. I believe the range of difficulty that ZOS offers now is appropriate.

The comparison of group vs solo content is disingenuous and I am getting tired of pointing it out.
When we are talking about Overland content we mean the solo content - exploration, the quests, the main story - all things designed for the solo player in mind. All of them being mediocre and simple when it comes to combat gameplay.

It doesn't ask that you make a competent build - which is why people will say "Just Nerf yourself" which completely misses the point of RPGs (as other people have pointed out)

Kikke wrote: »

Make an MMO and aim it towards the TES crowd, how anyone could imagen this game being anything near hard has either never played a TES game before or is the type of player ZOS aimed at... Light attack spamming skyrimplayers.

Even in Skyrim I have difficulty options AND it does punish you if you don't make a competent character as you level
Skyrim actually had risk in its combat. Play on expert, & above, at low level and you'll see. A Bandit Chief or even a highwayman is a danger to you.

Trolls in Skyrim = "Uh Oh"
Trolls in ESO = "Meh"

nukk3r wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Anyway, I have a question for you folks that say overland is too easy. Are you able to solo complete all the game world base dailies on a level 10 alt with mismatched gear and no CP? In all the zones? I'm not asking if you can complete them while you have all CP allocated and while wearing full endgame gear. I'm asking about you doing every one of them as a new player would, with no CP and the mismatched gear you get from doing overland quests. Because if you can't, then ZOS does not have to up the difficulty on overland. I believe the range of difficulty that ZOS offers now is appropriate.

Yes. I can.

I have made many alts and don't actually upgrade my gear until I hit level 50 / CP levels, and I typically don't distribute my CP points until 50 either.

I usually stick with the same level 4 gear or so throughout my journey to 50, because actually upgrading my gear before 50 is wholly pointless.

Can you truly solo world boss dailies with a lvl 10 character? Don't tell me they're group content, because most of them are not. The ones that are meant for group have an indicator when you enter their range.

Those bosses were buffed and improved for Groups lmao.
I've soloed a couple with a level 15 guy (pics or it didn't happen) but again that is a boss for dailies - who are stationary in one spot on the map. We're talking about exploration and general solo questing experience.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Skyrim is easy to become god-like in, but until you cross that threshold into godliness around the mid-30's or so, challenge is still easy to find, especially against dungeon and quest bosses.

In ESO? I literally can't die to overland mobs if I tried. I could sheath my weapon and set my controller down and walk away and I still won't die. Your "some people are here because of the single player TES games" argument is flawed, because even solo content in ESO is *nothing* like a single player TES game experience. Not even in the least bit.

If ESO's solo content is what single player TES games were like, TES would probably be among my most hated RPG franchises of all time.

Exactly!

Skyrim could also be very hard early on depending on the difficulty you chose to set it on

Hell even Destiny - which is all about power fantasy - has challenging solo enemies in their overland content. They actually do make solo stuff challenging depending on your level. Fun fact, people don't get discouraged when they die to something in overland - they actually get motivated to kill that thing.

SilverBride wrote: »

Not everyone likes the same things, so if you don't find ESO fun the logical solution is to look for a game that is more to your liking. It is not reasonable to expect any game to completely change into something it isn't.

If you don't enjoy casual games, don't play a casual game.

That argument only works if ESO was only overland. But ESO has no issue making challenging and engaging group content that are not so "Casual". Which is such a steep 180 from overland content experience.

also I am generally speaking casual, I just play the game the way it was designed, and even I find it boring.

ALSO we had no issue completely changing ESO for One Tamriel and make everything simple & easy for new players to go anywhere and get a handle on gameplay.

Yet when people say; "Hey, I'd like a separate instance where I can still go where I want but enemies are more dangerous and engaging" -- Suddenly people go "Woah now don't go asking for something that makes the game totally different"

We're not asking for a different game. We're asking that Overland content (the vast majority of the story content) be fun for more than just one type of player.

jle30303

Just to say: I do NOT want overland greater difficulty.

It's annoying enough already that I have to hit a skeever more than once to kill it. Levelling up and finding that the monsters level up with you, is drastically annoying. You know, that troll which was pretty dangerous when you were low level back at 10-20 with mismatched white and green gear? By now, at CP 1000, I should be able to one-hit it by poking it with a pasta spoon.

nukk3r

Iccotak wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

It's not worth it if A. You can't make money on it. B it angers the majority of players who are casual and spend the majority of the money in game. C. If you T-off these casuals pretty soon you will find empty servers. This thread keeps popping up the subject is old. If you want difficult do the vet content because that is what it's designed for. Overland is not designed to present a challenge it's a story for your character to complete as in adventure not designed to bunny hop mechanics or run in a circle around a boss. If you want action play a action game.

Simple - make a Veteran Mode for Overland that applies to the whole game but you have to buy a chapter to access it.

Just like Antiquities was applied to the whole game but you needed Greymoor to access it.

also if I want anything challenging or more importantly Engaging - then I have to play endgame / group content.

Why does engaging story & lore have to be mutually exclusive from engaging gameplay? Why should zones ONLY be for one type of player?

Just curious, how many times can one repeat the same quests that always have the same outcome?

How many times do you play the new chapter?
How many times do you play through ALL the zones?

I still haven't gotten around to finishing Cadwell's Gold because the gameplay just is not fun.

I want a new chapter zone to be something to look forward to, with a risk of danger.

Like I said earlier

I also love lore and storytelling but I definitely do NOT love it when a Big Bad is a Big Joke after the story spent 10-20 hours, or even up to a year, hyping them up.

The Story Content should not just be for the Very New or the Very Casual player. It's accessible sure but it's not fun for everyone to do. Key word being Fun, the story & questing is not fun for a lot of people because of the gameplay -- which is important because this is an mmo that is also heavily centered around action combat.

People go on and on about all the good writing and all the exploration and how that should be fun enough. There's a ton of content that I'd like to do, but the gameplay is so unbelievably boring and I cannot get excited for a New "Year Long Adventure" that I know is going to be incredibly easy.

The journey becomes a walking simulator and the destination is very underwhelming

Just once as they're not replayable.

Honestly Cadwell's gold doesn't take much time because of how easy it gets by the time you finish your alliance's main quest. And it's by design. Let's say it takes 4 weeks of relaxed play style to finish your main quest, but it would take 2 weeks tops to finish the other two. Imagine spending another 2 months finishing the other two alliances. Overland questing is a kiddie pool, if you know how to swim, go to an ocean.

Iccotak wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Anyway, I have a question for you folks that say overland is too easy. Are you able to solo complete all the game world base dailies on a level 10 alt with mismatched gear and no CP? In all the zones? I'm not asking if you can complete them while you have all CP allocated and while wearing full endgame gear. I'm asking about you doing every one of them as a new player would, with no CP and the mismatched gear you get from doing overland quests. Because if you can't, then ZOS does not have to up the difficulty on overland. I believe the range of difficulty that ZOS offers now is appropriate.

Yes. I can.

I have made many alts and don't actually upgrade my gear until I hit level 50 / CP levels, and I typically don't distribute my CP points until 50 either.

I usually stick with the same level 4 gear or so throughout my journey to 50, because actually upgrading my gear before 50 is wholly pointless.

Can you truly solo world boss dailies with a lvl 10 character? Don't tell me they're group content, because most of them are not. The ones that are meant for group have an indicator when you enter their range.

Those bosses were buffed and improved for Groups lmao.
I've soloed a couple with a level 15 guy (pics or it didn't happen) but again that is a boss for dailies - who are stationary in one spot on the map. We're talking about exploration and general solo questing experience.

I asked another person but if you answered so be it. I want to see you or anyone, really, soloing Salothan on a lvl 15 toon in whatever gear you collect in overland, without any CPs. Vvardenfell is a part of Standard Edition, so it's base game by now.

Bradyfjord

My problem with difficulty is one shot mechanics. There are too many of them for my taste.

Iccotak

nukk3r wrote: »

I asked another person but if you answered so be it. I want to see you or anyone, really, soloing Salothan on a lvl 15 toon in whatever gear you collect in overland, without any CPs. Vvardenfell is a part of Standard Edition, so it's base game by now.

imo - This is not a valid argument for the reasons I have already stated

#1

again that is a boss for dailies - who are stationary in one spot on the map. We're talking about exploration and general solo questing experience.

Also including the main story - which brings us to the next point

#2

I also love lore and storytelling but I definitely do NOT love it when a Big Bad is a Big Joke after the story spent 10-20 hours, or even up to a year, hyping them up.

The Story Content should not just be for the Very New or the Very Casual player. It's accessible sure but it's not fun for everyone to do. Key word being Fun, the story & questing is not fun for a lot of people because of the gameplay -- which is important because this is an mmo that is also heavily centered around action combat.

People go on and on about all the good writing and all the exploration and how that should be fun enough. There's a ton of content that I'd like to do, but the gameplay is so unbelievably boring and I cannot get excited for a New "Year Long Adventure" that I know is going to be incredibly easy.

The journey becomes a walking simulator and the destination is very underwhelming

Xebov

Amerises wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Threads like these are getting old,people just need to accept that the game wont have any harder overland content any time soon if ever.
The normal casual player is happy with the overland stuff and how it is designed,I mean I hear pretty often complains from people that some stuff is too difficult for them, mind my wild guessing but I would say 80% of the people who play eso can not even defeat one world boss on their own.

Harder overland content would make more casuals to leave the game from what Zos would not benefit at all.
And I don't think Zos would benefit either from reworking or making a harder veteran overland instance from old content, if that would ever happen it would be from the new expansions.

So because 80% of the populace cannot beat a Group Content activity on their own we should therefore stop asking ZOS to make the single player content more engaging in combat gameplay.....

Also a good reason to have vet overland. Everybody wins! And if you're in normal and make a friend, maybe you two choose to try vet? A nice reward for doing vet is everything dropping in epic quality, that'd be enough incentive.id rather spend 15 minutes with two other people on a vet dolmen for a purple piece of jewelry than hitting a loading screen every 7 minutes for 3 hours...

You are aware that this would not work at all? The gap between players in terms of survivability and damage is so big that a "one size fits all" veteran mode would never work. No matter how you do it, you will end up with players where normal is to easy and vet to hard and with players where even vet is to easy, you only have a choice how big each group should be. Thats also the main reason why you will never see this happening. You would effectively need 4-6 difficulties to get every player into a "not to eas not to hard" difficulty.

Jameson18

Even new folks just getting the game are straight up steam rolling their way through overland zone quests etc.

Overland difficulty should be taken up 10-30% depending on zone/dlc etc.

Normal dungeons should be taken up 10%. At least the non dlc ones.

It wouldn't be game breaking at all. At least add some kind of sense of danger.

Sanguinor2

nukk3r wrote: »

Just curious, how many times can one repeat the same quests that always have the same outcome?

Why do people reread books, rewatch movies or replay games? They are always the same.
If a quest offers an engaging experience and I like the writing behind it I can replay it many times. Personally I replayed the IC quest line for example 5 or 6 times just as I have reread certain book series multiple times.

coop500

Iccotak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Also lets not forget tank and healer builds, i HATE doing anything in overland with my tank and healer characters, it's already painfully slow and boringly hard (especially on my tank)

I play a tank - you know what I do when I play Overland? I change my build - the game is designed for you to be able to change your build to suit the circumstances. Change the gear, slot different skills, invest in other skill lines, etc. - all things you can do without changing CP or Skill Morphs.

I don't do the best damage but I have the good sense to adjust more for damage output over taking damage.

Where did this mentality come from? -- The idea that Overland should be mind numbingly simple and not ask anything of the player, that you should NEVER struggle with anything - why is there this push to make the overland content a point & click adventure? Especially for a game with action oriented combat systems...

If I have to change my build, then overland isn't as easy as you claim. So much for 'so easy you can close your eyes and do it naked with no skills' eh?

Also you seem to have missed the part where I DO struggle.

SilverBride

Judging by the responses in this thread (and several before it) there is not enough support for this proposal to make it feasible. Creating repeated threads on the same subject isn't going to change that. In fact, it's become a running joke between a friend and I.

Iccotak

as another note from Blackwood - ZOS made a new four armed enemy unit who actually uses more mechanics. Problem is that their attacks don't hit hard enough to actually be worried about anything.

So in a hypothetical Veteran Zone setting - enemies need both improved mechanics AND to hit harder - in order to be a danger to the player, or more experienced players. (again - it doesn't have to be endgame hard - just enough that it becomes engaging and can make a player think about what they are doing)

Mik195

I would support increasing difficulty if they added a buff. Say you die 3 times to something, you get a pop-up that says "Aruza is worried her champion may fall, would you like Kiss of Azura?" or whatever text isn't lame.

If you accept, you get a 10% boost to your stats. And if you die again, more boosts until you can defeat whatever you want dead. No drop in rewards and some people will cheese it, but who cares, its overland. It doesn't hurt anyone if someone brags they killed a world boss, but used 14 buffs.

Iccotak

coop500 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Also lets not forget tank and healer builds, i HATE doing anything in overland with my tank and healer characters, it's already painfully slow and boringly hard (especially on my tank)

I play a tank - you know what I do when I play Overland? I change my build - the game is designed for you to be able to change your build to suit the circumstances. Change the gear, slot different skills, invest in other skill lines, etc. - all things you can do without changing CP or Skill Morphs.

I don't do the best damage but I have the good sense to adjust more for damage output over taking damage.

Where did this mentality come from? -- The idea that Overland should be mind numbingly simple and not ask anything of the player, that you should NEVER struggle with anything - why is there this push to make the overland content a point & click adventure? Especially for a game with action oriented combat systems...

If I have to change my build, then overland isn't as easy as you claim. So much for 'so easy you can close your eyes and do it naked with no skills' eh?

Also you seem to have missed the part where I DO struggle.

Um no its still simple and easy - just takes longer if you are a tank because your DPS isn't really much.

Group Tank builds typically don't have many dps skills slotted - its also a minor adjustment to slot different skills and gear to have a bit more damage output.

all that does is make fights go faster. even on my "Tank build" it wasn't hard - just very slow.

i HATE doing anything in overland with my tank and healer characters, it's already painfully slow and boringly hard

Is it hard or is the fight just slow because if the overland fight is Hard for a tank or a healer then your build bad. I'm just using stuff I crafted.
This sounds more like a complaint of convenience - which I have pointed out before.

There is a difference between slow and hard.

SilverBride wrote: »

Judging by the responses in this thread (and several before it) there is not enough support for this proposal to make it feasible. Creating repeated threads on the same subject isn't going to change that. In fact, it's become a running joke between a friend and I.

Or maybe consider it an indicator that there is quite a bit of support for such a thing when more and more people keep making threads about it.
also we don't actually have the numbers so let's not start making claims like; "there is not enough support for it to be feasible" as if they are facts.

Many of us thought the same about Companions yet here we are.

Abigail

Simple fix ... give players a "Hard Mode" option.

Very clearly this is quite doable as game content is tailored to player level.

Just leave those of us who enjoy questing and NOT fighting for our lives at every turn alone.

Freaking tired of everything in this game being a moving target. ZOS -- leave the default difficulty level as is and QUIT screwing with the CP. Fix your egregious blunder regarding the need for passives in CP then quit fiddling with it! Every time devs touch one issue they break half a dozen others.

theyancey

I started in closed beta. Been playing ever since. Paid the sub initially and paid for ESO+ since it started. I can state unequivocally that if ZOS were to make the game harder I would quit in a heartbeat. I am here for fun and entertainment. I am not here for a job, a competition, or to live up to anyone else's imaginary expectations. If I wanted any of that then there are many games from which I could choose. I do not. I am far, far from alone. The game needs paying long term people like me far more than some flash in the pan here today and gone tomorrow types who seemingly a need to define their net worth as a human based on a bunch of pixels.

Slyclone

I like that I don't need to wear much during my overland farming. It fits.

But yes ZOS please make them a slider so that they stop complaining please.

Iccotak

theyancey wrote: »

I started in closed beta. Been playing ever since. Paid the sub initially and paid for ESO+ since it started. I can state unequivocally that if ZOS were to make the game harder I would quit in a heartbeat. I am here for fun and entertainment. I am not here for a job, a competition, or to live up to anyone else's imaginary expectations. If I wanted any of that then there are many games from which I could choose. I do not. I am far, far from alone. The game needs paying long term people like me far more than some flash in the pan here today and gone tomorrow types who seemingly a need to define their net worth as a human based on a bunch of pixels.

I am also someone who started in Beta and paid the initial required sub.
maybe - just maybe - people who are asking for this want fun just the same as you do. No one here is making it about any sense of self worth. They just don't find the combat in overland fun because it is too easy / too simple.

I am also here for fun & entertainment and I like a bit of challenge and engaging gameplay in my entertainment. I don't like that group content is my only option if I want any kind of engagement. I would like the Main Quest experience at the very least to have engaging gameplay and has a Boss Fight that I can look forward to.

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable - and they are asking for an optional instance that doesn't affect you, so no need to quit.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

How is it changing it into something it isn't? In what way is making a separate instance where gameplay is more challenging making ESO no longer ESO?

Sylvermynx

Again, making separate instances divides an already somewhat divided player base even further. If ZOS had Blizzard's money (and no, I don't believe that MS is going to dump any further billions into this IP) and really quality programmers (which it does seem they do not) they could likely make a separate instance setup that would work just like the game we have now - but harder for those of you who keep bringing this up.

And you would have a "harder instance" for those of you, which would remove you from the rest of the game, and that's just bad for the game.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

How is it changing it into something it isn't? In what way is making a separate instance where gameplay is more challenging making ESO no longer ESO?

Because overland is not supposed to be a challenge. It is the story and it's difficulty is such that all players can compete it. Veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are the challenge. Making overland as challenging as those, separate instance or not, IS changing what ESO is, and not enough players want that to justify it.

amm7sb14_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

Making ESO even a sliver more engaging than just "mindlessly click the mouse button over and over until the thing dies" is turning it into something that it's not?

In that case, ESO must not be very much to begin with, as you clearly don't have an awfully high opinion of it with an attitude like that.

Overland content is so tediously easy that it literally plays itself. I can throw on Leeching and Crimson and sheath my weapons and literally let my sets kill mobs on their own without even interacting with the game.

How do I know? I've done it.

All these people saying "Leave my overland experience alone, I'm here to have fun and not take up a 2nd job"... you know what? I absolutely hear you. I am far away from an elitist, I refuse to play any sort of meta builds, I don't parse, I don't require sets or DPS minimums to join my vet trial runs in my guild, and I don't care about a single person's leaderboard or Godslayer titles.

But I also want a game that actually engages me and captures my attention, and the mind numblingly easy overland content doesn't do that. I'm sorry for all the reasons why people supposedly can't handle a challenge beyond "left click mouse button", but the game shouldn't be built around players who don't seem to actually want to play the game, and want the game played for them.

I'm not a proponent of any "dumb down" phrases or negative viewpoints of people who like more relaxed and casual experiences. But there is a difference between "casual" and "relaxed", which are not bad things in the least bit, and not wanting to have to face literally any sort of in game challenge or engagement period.

amm7sb14_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

How is it changing it into something it isn't? In what way is making a separate instance where gameplay is more challenging making ESO no longer ESO?

Because overland is not supposed to be a challenge. It is the story and it's difficulty is such that all players can compete it. Veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are the challenge. Making overland as challenging as those, separate instance or not, IS changing what ESO is, and not enough players want that to justify it.

Nobody said make it as challenging as vet dungeons and trials. Not one single person has said that.

We said give it an appropriate challenge to actually make it engaging.

As it is, I 100% refuse to engage in any overland content because it is so ridiculously easy it is tedious. It actively detracts from my enjoyment of the game to engage in overland content.

Is that good for the game? To have a game design that is so ridiculously simple and easy that it drives players away from it?

I can go fire up Skyrim right now, and put the difficulty slider to the easiest difficulty setting, and still face more of a challenge than I face in ESO.

Sylvermynx

Well, y'know what? Quest bosses are enough of a challenge for me. I'm older, my reflexes suck, and satellite ping means it takes me a long time to actually kill a one gem troll or quest boss. And no, that's not because my girls are tanks - they're DW stamdens.

There's what y'all need to do to up your level of challenge - get crap satellite 'net.

Regardless, if they do something that's TOTALLY OPTIONAL and doesn't give much better rewards (since that just throws those who are happy with the current game into feeling as if they have to do more difficult questing than they want to in order to get those better rewards), then I'm fine with it. As long as it doesn't somehow mean the game will go away sooner because ZOS can't justify fewer people in the "normal game" as well as just however many of you want to be in the "harder instance" game.

SilverBride

WoW is the same way. Their overland is just quests, there aren't even harrowstorms or world bosses, or delves or dolmens. It is just the quests and the story. This is the norm in most MMO's. Creating veteran overland is not, and for very good reason.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Nobody asking for this feature is being unreasonable

There is nothing reasonable about expecting ZoS to spend the time and resources to completely change ESO into something it isn't to please a few players.

How is it changing it into something it isn't? In what way is making a separate instance where gameplay is more challenging making ESO no longer ESO?

Because overland is not supposed to be a challenge. It is the story and it's difficulty is such that all players can compete it. Veteran dungeons, trials and arenas are the challenge. Making overland as challenging as those, separate instance or not, IS changing what ESO is, and not enough players want that to justify it.

According to that logic Pre-One Tamriel wasn't ESO then (or was it no longer ESO after OT?) - because it certainly did have some challenge in its overland content.

You could complete it - but you still had to work on your build and think about what you were doing. Story Bosses actually did have some challenge before One Tamriel. Public Dungeons were dangerous. When OT happened they made all solo questing as easy as Bleakrock. Pendulum swung too far in one direction

btw no one is saying to make Overland as hard as a Group Dungeon or Trial - in fact many have overwhelmingly said they don't want Craglorn. Here and in other threads.

I don't think a Story Boss should be as hard as a Trial but I do think there should be a setting besides "Novice/Beginner" for a boss that was built up over the course of a story or even up to a year to be more of a challenge worth the hype.

also anyone can any of the content - if you put in the work. This idea that overland should be so inclusive that there is no risk, no danger, no threat, - no matter your build,

This idea that overland should be so inclusive that you are never at any risk or never challenged frankly does not make sense for a game that has such a heavy emphasis on fast action combat. This is a problem when that design philosophy is applied to the majority of the Story Content. - Most new players I've met found this combat for questing boring.

I don't think the story should be designed ONLY for new players which is what it is at now (that's what it means when people say that anyone of any skill can do it - it's for beginners)
I do Not think that engaging story and engaging gameplay should be separate.

---

How is this unreasonable?

I think if they can make our companion AI competent, why not regular enemies? It's just flat out immersion breaking when enemies don't even seem like they want to kill you.

I see a lot of people quoting that same exact point of where "if it's too hard casuals won't play" or "zos needs it to be braindead or the game will die". This kind of thinking is absurd. You can clear overland content with absolutely no gear or skills slotted. Hell, you see people in normal mode dungeons doing exactly that and just light attacking their way through.

Why should enemies be so incompetent? It is clear that they can make good Ai for NPCs and it seems that this conversation is absolutely more relevant than ever now that even new players can get an NPC DPS assistant.

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Everstorm wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Even by the low standards of themepark MMORPGs, it should be apparent by now that ESO is an MMORPG in name only.

It's amusing. When people complain about mechanics that make it impossible to solo normal dungeons you get other people commenting that it's a MMO and get some friends.
But it's totally acceptable that all the quest content is so trivial that it's redundant to group up for it.

🤔

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I think there is a better compromise for SOLO Story content then what we have now - and I think the only way to address the issue for game that focuses on player skill can be addressed by a separate instance

knightblaster wrote: »

The trouble is that ESO relies very heavily on player skill/familiarity with the game in order to be played effectively. A new player coming from a typical tab target MMO will struggle at first. If you make it harder, they will have massive problems.

Because this design is very centered on the player's own skill, it isn't as easy to scale as a different design, where you can scale difficulty more easily by matching up more and stronger character skills with harder enemies and encounters.

Here you can't really do that as much, and so once you have personally scaled the player-based difficulty scale, playing well becomes rather easy, even with a fresh character, regardless of the "character" abilities.

I think what that means is that the game needs different difficulty settings, because you can't really solve this issue of player-skill-based difficulty otherwise.

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SilverBride wrote: »

WoW is the same way. Their overland is just quests, there aren't even harrowstorms or world bosses. It is just the quests and the story. This is the norm in most MMO's. Creating veteran overland is not, and for very good reason.

Hasn't ZOS said that ESO isn't a traditional "MMO" and isn't like other MMOs?

They are making more and more changes to appeal to the single player fans - you know what one of the things that was great about single player games? Difficulty settings.

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ixthUA

Majority of players make a dps build, so questing becomes very easy (it was designed to be doable by tanks too), then they complain about long dungeon queues (there are like hundreds? times more dps than tanks), then they queue as fake tank (and quit as soon as they get a dungeon they can't tank with 20k hp), then they complain about fake tanks/healers and overland being too easy.
Solution: play as a tank.
1. No more easy overland.
2. No more long queues.
3. No more fake tanks.