Too much tanks and heals in the game?

grom1024

I wonder if there are too much tanks and heals in the game, so ZOS still indirectly discourages those who are creating such characters and punish them with money or with wasting time.

DPS-es could have the same build that is good for solo and dungeons (possibly with some gear changes). Some say that most of dungeouns works best in 4*DSP configuration, but having a good tank and heal is much more relaxing. However tanks and heals have to allocate ability points and CP according to the role. The allocation good for dungeons is bad for solo play and reverse. My tank takes at least twice as long to kill the things, even in dps-y gear. The tanks and heals also require more skill points to support both solo and dungeon plays, since two sets of skills need to be upgraded.

Some character profile slots would helped with the problem (switchable outside of combat), but I guess that there is no problem at all, because these pesky heals and tanks get queue immediately, and they need to be punished for this.

electriczzz

I am confusion

ThoughtRaven

Ah yes, the longstanding MMO problem of there just being too many tanks and heals, and not enough dps. Tale as old as time.

khyrkat

I think my coffeine level in blood is too low right now to fully understand your problem...
I main healer. I get insta queues and mostly am welcomed in the group, but truth be told, I don't play normal dungeons, perhaps in them I wouldn't be needed. Questing is a matter of slotting dps gear and skills and switching slottable CPs.
Tank: queue pops before I hit "join" button lol definitely we have too many tanks omg -_- Questing: switch to dps gear and 2h weapon, switch some slottable CPs. Cuz you don't really need fully optimized build for overland anyways.
I don't get your point. There are more dd's that have infinite queue because of abundance of tanks mostly, and healers, and you say there are too many support roles? Do we play the same game? Support roles are continously discouraged from playing their roles as content is catered towards more and more numbers you can pull off so damage dealers are in favor, also recent nerfs and bugs simply make playing support punishing. Forum is full of people complaining about fake healers and tanks that are indeed dd's faking support for faster queue. And there are too many support roles? Wow...

HalfRain216

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.
Why would you not make a DPS for your main to do overland content and quests and another character for tank and healer?
I have 8 characters most people surely would have more than 1, why would you play the game in a way making it harder for yourself.
Tanks and healers are only useful in group content and if you enjoy playing that role you make another character specifically for group content if you need the skill points spec for dps up to lvl 50 and go and collect skyshards do delves, quests and what not and then respec once you hit cp for the role you would like to play...
Baffles me.

Lady_Galadhiel

Batgirl

Yes, definiely too many healers and tanks. I rarely pug, but when i do, I port in to dungeon to find i got real healer insead of a fake one i was hoping to see! outreageous!

khyrkat

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.
Why would you not make a DPS for your main to do overland content and quests and another character for tank and healer?
I have 8 characters most people surely would have more than 1, why would you play the game in a way making it harder for yourself.
Tanks and healers are only useful in group content and if you enjoy playing that role you make another character specifically for group content if you need the skill points spec for dps up to lvl 50 and go and collect skyshards do delves, quests and what not and then respec once you hit cp for the role you would like to play...
Baffles me.

Well... no. I have 8 characters, all of them at some point do some quests. I just like it and absolutely have no issues with overland. I mean... overland is way too easy.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I have no idea why people think that playing a tank or a healer makes you ineligible for normal solo content. My tanks have no trouble slotting some damage skills to breeze through anything except the veteran solo arenas. Sure, it takes a few seconds longer to kill a quest boss, and a world boss might take a few minutes to whittle down if you insist on doing it solo, but nothing that the quests or the overland content can throw at me is any real challenge. My healers can easily deal more than enough damage if I just change their gear and slot different skills. For most of the solo content, I even get away with staying in the tank or healer gear and just change some skills around. My healers and magtanks don't even have to change weapons, because both run a destro/resto staff setup, and to even bother with changing their CP configuration for "quest mode" seems like an overkill.

And concerning the question in the thread title, no, tanks and healers are not too common in the game. There may be enough healers if you include dds who can heal well enough for a vet dungeon run, but there are not too many competent trial-grade healers, and there are most certainly not too many tanks. I don't understand how anyone who actually plays the game could come to that conclusion.

HalfRain216

khyrkat wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.
Why would you not make a DPS for your main to do overland content and quests and another character for tank and healer?
I have 8 characters most people surely would have more than 1, why would you play the game in a way making it harder for yourself.
Tanks and healers are only useful in group content and if you enjoy playing that role you make another character specifically for group content if you need the skill points spec for dps up to lvl 50 and go and collect skyshards do delves, quests and what not and then respec once you hit cp for the role you would like to play...
Baffles me.

Well... no. I have 8 characters, all of them at some point do some quests. I just like it and absolutely have no issues with overland. I mean... overland is way too easy.

I think it’s more about how long it takes rather than how easy...
It can take a minute to kill 3 spiders on a tank just to get to a node let alone time spent trying to complete a quest with it taking 10 just to kill the boss.
Obviously if you already at cp might be slightly different just depends if you have the skill points to spare.

Why would you main a tank when you could have a dps and set up another character as a tank for group content?

Your making your own life harder than it needs to be.

Like I said though up to cp it cost barely any gold to respec change for dps change back for group content if you like tanking.

I’m unsure where the problem is.

Starlight_Whisper

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Ah yes, the longstanding MMO problem of there just being too many tanks and heals, and not enough dps. Tale as old as time.

Sarcasm?

Fennwitty

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I have no idea why people think that playing a tank or a healer makes you ineligible for normal solo content. My tanks have no trouble slotting some damage skills to breeze through anything except the veteran solo arenas. Sure, it takes a few seconds longer to kill a quest boss, and a world boss might take a few minutes to whittle down if you insist on doing it solo, but nothing that the quests or the overland content can throw at me is any real challenge. My healers can easily deal more than enough damage if I just change their gear and slot different skills. For most of the solo content, I even get away with staying in the tank or healer gear and just change some skills around. My healers and magtanks don't even have to change weapons, because both run a destro/resto staff setup, and to even bother with changing their CP configuration for "quest mode" seems like an overkill.

It's surmountable, but tanks having trouble solo is a real issue.

I typically main tanks in MMOs. Thinking back to when I started playing ESO I remember spending 5 minutes in brutal(ly long) death match with the bear public dungeon boss in Stonefalls.

I wasn't in any danger of dying. The bear was ... in very little danger.

That's when I realized speccing as a tank wasn't going to work when questing. Had to put a lot of time and energy into farming more skill points and gear so that one tank character could be useful in a group and also do things solo. That's a barrier for players.

FantasticFreddie

I wonder if there are too much tanks and heals in the game,

No.

etchedpixels

HalfRain216 wrote: »

Why would you main a tank when you could have a dps and set up another character as a tank for group content?

Your making your own life harder than it needs to be.

Like I said though up to cp it cost barely any gold to respec change for dps change back for group content if you like tanking.

I’m unsure where the problem is.

My warden tank does 15kdps if I simply stick him in medium armour and 2H/bow. Yes it needs a few more skill points for the extra skills and passives but big deal.

For most easier content anyway the optimal tank no longer appears to be a health based tank in heavy armour but a magicka dd style build spamming shields with some heavy some light.

Starlight_Whisper

Fake tanks and healers otherwise crazy assumption

HalfRain216

Fennwitty wrote: »

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I have no idea why people think that playing a tank or a healer makes you ineligible for normal solo content. My tanks have no trouble slotting some damage skills to breeze through anything except the veteran solo arenas. Sure, it takes a few seconds longer to kill a quest boss, and a world boss might take a few minutes to whittle down if you insist on doing it solo, but nothing that the quests or the overland content can throw at me is any real challenge. My healers can easily deal more than enough damage if I just change their gear and slot different skills. For most of the solo content, I even get away with staying in the tank or healer gear and just change some skills around. My healers and magtanks don't even have to change weapons, because both run a destro/resto staff setup, and to even bother with changing their CP configuration for "quest mode" seems like an overkill.

It's surmountable, but tanks having trouble solo is a real issue.

I typically main tanks in MMOs. Thinking back to when I started playing ESO I remember spending 5 minutes in brutal(ly long) death match with the bear public dungeon boss in Stonefalls.

I wasn't in any danger of dying. The bear was ... in very little danger.

That's when I realized speccing as a tank wasn't going to work when questing. Had to put a lot of time and energy into farming more skill points and gear so that one tank character could be useful in a group and also do things solo. That's a barrier for players.

That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Why would you main a tank for solo how is it enjoyable? Where is the benefit?
Why not have a dps and a tank considering it would be just as quick if not quicker to get the needed skills points for both rather than trying to max out skill points for one to use as both?
Not dissing you can play how you like just trying to understand the psychology?

Bobby_V_Rockit

My healer is my favourite character, just swap out one gear set (jorvulds guidance for whatever else I have on me) and good to go!

iksde

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Ah yes, the longstanding MMO problem of there just being too many tanks and heals, and not enough dps. Tale as old as time.

I think he meant DD's in this game have to short wait timer for pug dungs anyway, for us it is already loong but for devs it might be to short I think

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

HalfRain216 wrote: »

That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Why would you main a tank for solo how is it enjoyable? Where is the benefit?

If I play solo on my tank, in tank gear and with tanking skills only, I end up dealing around 3-4k dps. That is perfect for letting the quest bosses finish their dialog and not be cut off half way through their initial taunt: "You worthless worm, you can't possibly expect to... arrgh UNPOSSIBLE". Even my trial-grade healer (with no care taken to be able to double as dps) deals 6-7k dps by mere accident, and has to hold back to hear out the quest dialog.

My response to your question would be another question: how is it enjoyable to do a quest to supposedly save the world, or at least save the day, when hordes of mobs barely slow you down, when you cut every animation sequence and every dialog short, and when the final boss fight is over in less than ten seconds with no sweat at all? I absolutely loathe questing with my DD characters. They need to light attack their way through quest fights, slowly, or they are overpowered.

HalfRain216

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Why would you main a tank for solo how is it enjoyable? Where is the benefit?

If I play solo on my tank, in tank gear and with tanking skills only, I end up dealing around 3-4k dps. That is perfect for letting the quest bosses finish their dialog and not be cut off half way through their initial taunt: "You worthless worm, you can't possibly expect to... arrgh UNPOSSIBLE". Even my trial-grade healer (with no care taken to be able to double as dps) deals 6-7k dps by mere accident, and has to hold back to hear out the quest dialog.

My response to your question would be another question: how is it enjoyable to do a quest to supposedly save the world, or at least save the day, when hordes of mobs barely slow you down, when you cut every animation sequence and every dialog short, and when the final boss fight is over in less than ten seconds with no sweat at all? I absolutely loathe questing with my DD characters. They need to light attack their way through quest fights, slowly, or they are overpowered.

I understand what your trying to say but isn’t it irrelevant to the original statement of wanting tanks to do more damage so more people play them from the sounds of it you like the way they are?

I also don’t experience that when I’m doing quests If I wanted to hear the dialogue I’d probably just sit back for a minute and listen to it, not go crazy and button smash to take out the boss in a few seconds as I’m questing not in a dungeon or pvp why would I want to put in the effort of doing a full rotation and trying to hit max dps instead of just hitting a few moves having fun.
For most players a 100k boss still takes atleast 20 or so seconds.

Everyone’s different when I’m questing I don’t read any dialogue run past every mob and kill the boss as quickly as possible to get the skill point and get out any harder would exclude me from questing so IMO it has the right balance of difficulty but that’s a different conversation.

BlueRaven

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.
Why would you not make a DPS for your main to do overland content and quests and another character for tank and healer?
I have 8 characters most people surely would have more than 1, why would you play the game in a way making it harder for yourself.
Tanks and healers are only useful in group content and if you enjoy playing that role you make another character specifically for group content if you need the skill points spec for dps up to lvl 50 and go and collect skyshards do delves, quests and what not and then respec once you hit cp for the role you would like to play...
Baffles me.

Because sky shards and skill points are things in game that tanks and healers need?

Because going through extra hoops to roll a tank is not great gameplay design?

Because respecing and carrying around extra gear every time a player wants to NOT do group content is not a way of encouraging people to play that role?

Because if the players main is a dd, why even bother then making a tank?

Because maybe the player simply likes the look of sword and board?

Because maybe they still see Elder scrolls in the title and think they can play it like an Elder Scrolls game?

••••

You know what? If the players of this game don't understand that making tanks (and healers) NOT fun to play is a direct correlation into why the dungeon queues are so long, then I say fine. Enjoy the long queues. Make them two hour long for all I care.

How many times do we have to tell the obviousness of the situation? The players have only themselves to blame.

JoDiMageio

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.

Why would this be playing the game oddly? People can play how they like, and not everyone enjoys playing the same way. Just because one person wouldn't play a certain way doesn't make it odd if others do. People have preferences.

My main is a healer, and has been from my baby days in the game. I hate playing as a DD and have no interest in parsing. I can solo all the original overland content, and can lend support in group events like Harrowstorms simply by switching out my gear. It's versatile, and I enjoy it a lot more than rote button pushing.

As to the original question, in my opinion there is a lack of tanks and healers in the game because their playstyle is not encouraged, neither by the gear options offered, nor by the culture of the game. So a lot of people will choose to be a DD out of simplicity and availability, queue in fake roles, and then some even give themselves the permission to critique those players who actually play their roles correctly and are good at it.

Agenericname

HalfRain216 wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I have no idea why people think that playing a tank or a healer makes you ineligible for normal solo content. My tanks have no trouble slotting some damage skills to breeze through anything except the veteran solo arenas. Sure, it takes a few seconds longer to kill a quest boss, and a world boss might take a few minutes to whittle down if you insist on doing it solo, but nothing that the quests or the overland content can throw at me is any real challenge. My healers can easily deal more than enough damage if I just change their gear and slot different skills. For most of the solo content, I even get away with staying in the tank or healer gear and just change some skills around. My healers and magtanks don't even have to change weapons, because both run a destro/resto staff setup, and to even bother with changing their CP configuration for "quest mode" seems like an overkill.

It's surmountable, but tanks having trouble solo is a real issue.

I typically main tanks in MMOs. Thinking back to when I started playing ESO I remember spending 5 minutes in brutal(ly long) death match with the bear public dungeon boss in Stonefalls.

I wasn't in any danger of dying. The bear was ... in very little danger.

That's when I realized speccing as a tank wasn't going to work when questing. Had to put a lot of time and energy into farming more skill points and gear so that one tank character could be useful in a group and also do things solo. That's a barrier for players.

That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Why would you main a tank for solo how is it enjoyable? Where is the benefit?
Why not have a dps and a tank considering it would be just as quick if not quicker to get the needed skills points for both rather than trying to max out skill points for one to use as both?
Not dissing you can play how you like just trying to understand the psychology?

Some people like playing their character. Some want the achievements on the same character. Some like the playstyle. Tanks need more skill points than many DD builds and many of those come from overland quests, delves, and public dungeons. There are a number of reasons why someone would bring their tank into overland.

pelle412

If you main a tank, having a different gear set for solo content is not a big deal. I personally just use my Battleground setup which is fine for overland questing. I think most people who main a tank didn't make it because they knew exactly how their questing experience was going to be, it's something you discover as you go.

If you don't main a tank, then it's not really a problem right?

HalfRain216

BlueRaven wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I’m lost with the argument that there isn’t enough tanks or healers in the game because they can’t do enough DPS for overland content.
IMO if your using a tank or healer as a main your playing the game a bit oddly.
Why would you not make a DPS for your main to do overland content and quests and another character for tank and healer?
I have 8 characters most people surely would have more than 1, why would you play the game in a way making it harder for yourself.
Tanks and healers are only useful in group content and if you enjoy playing that role you make another character specifically for group content if you need the skill points spec for dps up to lvl 50 and go and collect skyshards do delves, quests and what not and then respec once you hit cp for the role you would like to play...
Baffles me.

Because sky shards and skill points are things in game that tanks and healers need?

Because going through extra hoops to roll a tank is not great gameplay design?

Because respecing and carrying around extra gear every time a player wants to NOT do group content is not a way of encouraging people to play that role?

Because if the players main is a dd, why even bother then making a tank?

Because maybe the player simply likes the look of sword and board?

Because maybe they still see Elder scrolls in the title and think they can play it like an Elder Scrolls game?

••••

You know what? If the players of this game don't understand that making tanks (and healers) NOT fun to play is a direct correlation into why the dungeon queues are so long, then I say fine. Enjoy the long queues. Make them two hour long for all I care.

How many times do we have to tell the obviousness of the situation? The players have only themselves to blame.

Anything short of just making tanks and healers dd will not change the issue.
Then what is the point of having tanks and healers at all make everyone dd.
It’s just human psychology everyone wants to do the damage and the fighting.

I think I answered most of your statements already though I’ll go over the main ones.

Spec as a dd till lvl 50 collect all sky shards and skill points you need use the free scrolls provided from leveling to then spec to the support role of your choice once you hit cp.

Your main is the character you do questing overland crafting whatever on not necessarily what you want to do group content on.

People can also have more than one interest I do daily dungeons on all roles but if I’m going to hook in to some group content I’ll tank it’s what I enjoy if I’m going to do some questing I’ll jump on my dd.

At the end of the day a bank is a wayshrine away and respecing takes all of 2 mins I really don’t think that’s the reason people are not using tanks for group content.

The people that are interested will the people that aren’t won’t.

Tanks dealing a bit extra damage won’t and allowing people a profile to just switch setups will be good for the people who already like to tank dungeons but don’t want to spend the extra day or 2 to lvl up another character but at the end of the day it’s not going to bring new tanks or healers in the game.

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

I don't know for tanks but my main is a healer, and even keeping the same CPs as for trial, and most of the times the same gear i have no issue doing all overland content, i just swap some skills too.
I only change part of my gear when doing world bosses solo, it's a bit longer than with a pure DD, but it's only a matter of having a little bit more patience.

HalfRain216

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't know for tanks but my main is a healer, and even keeping the same CPs as for trial, and most of the times the same gear i have no issue doing all overland content, i just swap some skills too.
I only change part of my gear when doing world bosses solo, it's a bit longer than with a pure DD, but it's only a matter of having a little bit more patience.

I agree though your more likely an experienced player new players would more than likely not no how to set that up have low cp.

To decrease wait times we need new tanks and healers or to convert players who are set on only having one main to try having a couple of characters of different roles and doing daily’s on them.

People above who only main tanks and set on it want to help decrease wait times create a healer and do some daily’s vice versa.

There is just no solution the game is the way it is.

You can’t make everyone a dd and eliminate support roles.

You can’t offer better rewards for support roles or you just increase the fake tanks and healers.

Sometimes the wait times take a little bit but is it really that bad just find something else to do for 20 minutes quest do overland content, I play with my phone haha.

Fennwitty

HalfRain216 wrote: »

Why would you main a tank for solo how is it enjoyable? Where is the benefit?
Why not have a dps and a tank considering it would be just as quick if not quicker to get the needed skills points for both rather than trying to max out skill points for one to use as both?
Not dissing you can play how you like just trying to understand the psychology?

I'm not saying I made the character for the purpose of soloing.

I made a tank for the purpose of playing an MMO, and when I grouped up to serve as tank.

But I can't be in a group all the time. Sometimes I do quests. You pretty much have to do quests and overland just to train skill lines and get skill points.

Obviously I expected to do less damage and have more survivability vs. a specialist in damage. But in ESO, being a tank and using tank skills is extremely weighted against doing damage.

If you want to do any real damage with a tank, you have to be creative or build your tank to resemble damage dealers.

So it's not "friendly" for new players if they're used to being able to solo quests and do OK-ish damage on a tank, because the game doesn't make it clear that tanks aren't expected or intended to do damage in the scheme of things. So that solo experience is rougher.

etchedpixels

HalfRain216 wrote: »

I also don’t experience that when I’m doing quests If I wanted to hear the dialogue I’d probably just sit back for a minute and listen to it, not go crazy and button smash to take out the boss in a few seconds as I’m questing not in a dungeon or pvp why would I want to put in the effort of doing a full rotation and trying to hit max dps instead of just hitting a few moves having fun.
For most players a 100k boss still takes atleast 20 or so seconds.

When I'm doing the story the combat is frequently just an annoyance so I generally quest on a dps (and that 120k boss lasts about 4 seconds max all of the time under a stun), but that doesn't mean I don't wait for the story parts and listen to them and work through them. For me that works - I've already saved the world and beaten up dragons and who knows what else, cultists should just melt in comparison.

The problem with some tanks is that the DPS is so low that it goes below the point of pleasant. However in most cases that's down to people not knowing how to re-gear for a bit of damage. While U30 has made the problem worse it's still perfectly possible to flip gear on most tanks and do enough DPS to progress quests at a comfortable rate. You've also now got companions and whilst they are fairly useless in many situations if you give them ranged weapons and tank for them they actually generally stay alive. Of course they messed that up by forcing you to do the two quests on the tank to get them, so a real 'pure health' old school tank might need to take a friend along to get a companion.

peacenote

grom1024 wrote: »

Some character profile slots would helped with the problem (switchable outside of combat), but I guess that there is no problem at all, because these pesky heals and tanks get queue immediately, and they need to be punished for this.

This makes me think you are trolling or joking.

But in all seriousness, given the existence of the roles in group finder, while some people may complete content with 3 or 4 dps, the content is clearly designed for tanks and healers too.

I recently posted somewhere else how the lack of healers is causing people to think they aren't needed or good to have, when they are. We definitely don't have too many healers or tanks in the community nor a need to temper the few benefits they get over DPS, like faster queues. Already there are less group spots for them, inventory management is a nightmare, "regular" solo content can be annoying, and there is no parsing equivalent to easily quiet skeptics who don't dig your style. Sheesh. And this is coming from someone who loves healing/support more than the other roles, by far!

I have wanted dual specs for a while. Group finder used to let you pick multiple roles, which some people truly can do, and I feel that the rise of "fake" tanks and healers as well as lack of legitimate tanks and healers specifically got worse after this change.

But, yea, basically I don't agree with the OP's stance at all. Sorry.. agree to disagree, I hope.

grom1024

The devs are supposed to encourage balance. Basing on their actions, for example CP nerf in 2.0 so it is not possible to get CP for all roles eventually, they discourage heals and tanks. The question is: are there too much of heals and tanks, so devs need to discourage these roles further and further?