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Anyone else have a bully /kick you from a dungeon? (Screenshot)
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 9:18PM0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.10 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 9:30PM3 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People typically understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.Edited by Hydra9268 on May 11, 2021 9:31PM12 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. Neither of these things would prevent that. Just give the player a chance first before you kick them. That's really not too much to ask.Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 9:33PM3 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar.
I didn't say "not a good healer." I said "never be an efficient healer." There's a difference.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar.
I didn't say "not a good healer." I said "never be an efficient healer." There's a difference.
I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Are you suggesting that it's "common sense" for everyone who uses the activity finder who doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank, or DPS should be kicked at the start of a dungeon?
I hope you are not suggesting that.2 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
That's not an addon. That's basegame functionality (Combat -> HUD -> Resource Numbers)
I know as a tank, I'm nervous seeing other people with SnB. I wouldn't kick them, but the question of "is this guy gonna steal my taunt?" is always in the back of my mind until I see whether they do.
I do always think people should get a chance instead of being kicked outright though. Kicking immediately is just not okay.
But then again I don't PUG. I've had enough bad experiences running with groups that I don't want to deal with anyone besides who I know. Besides, I know I favor non-trad builds myself (I use arena weapons), so I don't need to hear other people complain why I'm running Vateshran's SnB for large add pulls instead of laying down a destro staff wall.Edited by tomofhyrule on May 11, 2021 9:40PM11 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar.
I didn't say "not a good healer." I said "never be an efficient healer." There's a difference.
I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Are you suggesting that it's "common sense" for everyone who uses the activity finder who doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank, or DPS should be kicked at the start of a dungeon?
I hope you are not suggesting that.
What does effective (or good) mean?
"Effective" is an adjective that means achieving a result or intended purpose in a good or satisfactory way.
What does efficient mean?
"Efficient" is an adjective that means accomplishing a result in the best possible way while saving time and effort.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/effective-vs-efficient
In other words, a good player might help the group clear the content (they met the minimum), but an efficient player will help the group clear the content faster (they did an excellent job).
Does that help clarify the difference?4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
That's not an addon. That's basegame functionality (Combat -> HUD -> Resource Numbers)
I know as a tank, I'm nervous seeing other people with SnB. I wouldn't kick them, but the question of "is this guy gonna steal my taunt?" is always in the back of my mind.
But then again I don't PUG. I've had enough bad experiences running with groups that I don't want to deal with anyone besides who I know. Besides, I know I favor non-trad builds myself (I use arena weapons), so I don't need to hear other people complain why I'm running Vateshran's SnB for large add pulls instead of laying down a destro staff wall.
I thought it was addon. So thanks for the correction if there is an in-game option that let's people do this. Still, it's wrong to judge a player solely based off how much health they have.
Also, I don't blame a person for being nervous about a healer who shows up with a sword and shield and 40k health. It would make me nervous as well. But making a person nervous isn't a justifiable reason to kick someone. Give the person a chance first is all I'm saying.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar.
I didn't say "not a good healer." I said "never be an efficient healer." There's a difference.
I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Are you suggesting that it's "common sense" for everyone who uses the activity finder who doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank, or DPS should be kicked at the start of a dungeon?
I hope you are not suggesting that.
What does effective (or good) mean?
"Effective" is an adjective that means achieving a result or intended purpose in a good or satisfactory way.
What does efficient mean?
"Efficient" is an adjective that means accomplishing a result in the best possible way while saving time and effort.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/effective-vs-efficient
In other words, a good player might help the group clear the content (they met the minimum), but an efficient player will help the group clear the content faster (they did an excellent job).
Does that help clarify the difference?
Again: so what are you suggesting here, that everyone who uses the Activity Finder and doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank or DPS should be kicked at the start?
Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 9:46PM1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People typically understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
Agreed.1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.
Knowing the HP of your group is an essential function and has been a base function in most MMORPG's since the 90's.7 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.
Knowing the HP of your group is an essential function and has been a base function in most MMORPG's since the 90's.
But it's not essential. You cannot determine if a healer is good or bad by looking to see if they have 40k health. As I just told you, you can still be a good healer on this game and have 40k health. That is not impossible.Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 9:48PM2 -
marshill88✭✭✭✭
Ahh, you are smart. Most of that you nailed. PVP is so much fun, I was getting annihilated, like in 2 seconds. Frustrated, I made some huge changes based on some private messages in this forum with other magcros. Now I just love my class, I am a BG fiend, I can take huge damage and stand there in the flags while getting beat on, shaking it off like gnats. My DPS isn't that great (with this build) but even in a death match, if I have good teammates that stay together we can easily win, in part because they get massive kills as a unit, and definitely in part because I'm keeping them alive. So in between BG I like to run dungeons, its fun and the vast majority of people are friendly and casual and only once did a dungeon run fail so while I may be carried more than I help, it's certainly not to the detriment of my teammates since we very easily, and usually without issue, steamroll the dungeons.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
If dungeons were harder I would pay more attention to the minutia and fine details of my build, but its just not necessary. I always ask when its a new boss i haven't seen though...just in case i need to do something specific for the team.3 -
marshill88✭✭✭✭You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People typically understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
No, mate. Disagree. I'm not a pro-healer with my setup, and certainly there are much better "pure healer" builds, but as a tank-healer, i absolutely have some really effective, powerful heals, so no, it's just a myth and doesn't reflect the truth of this game. Pure healer? No. Tanky build with decent healing good enough for most of the dungeons? Definitely yes. Able to change my setup in mid-run for a specific boss? OF course. Willing to change my setup for a specific boss? Absolutely.
Deserve to get booted before I even have a chance to play? No way.Edited by marshill88 on May 11, 2021 9:54PM3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »
Ahh, you are smart. Most of that you nailed. PVP is so much fun, I was getting annihilated, like in 2 seconds. Frustrated, I made some huge changes based on some private messages in this forum with other magcros. Now I just love my class, I am a BG fiend, I can take huge damage and stand there in the flags while getting beat on, shaking it off like gnats. My DPS isn't that great (with this build) but even in a death match, if I have good teammates that stay together we can easily win, in part because they get massive kills as a unit, and definitely in part because I'm keeping them alive. So in between BG I like to run dungeons, its fun and the vast majority of people are friendly and casual and only once did a dungeon run fail so while I may be carried more than I help, it's certainly not to the detriment of my teammates since we very easily, and usually without issue, steamroll the dungeons.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
If dungeons were harder I would pay more attention to the minutia and fine details of my build, but its just not necessary. I always ask when its a new boss i haven't seen though...just in case i need to do something specific for the team.
lol, ok. I figured that's what was going on here.
You're also right that the dungeons on this game, even on Veteran content, do not require a build designed for maximum healing "efficiency" to get the job done. In fact: it's overkill in many instances. As I pointed out in this thread earlier, I find it more worthwhile for me to sacrifice healing efficiency for a better defense on my healer as well. Although I do not invest in my defense quite to the extent that you do (my healer has about 34k health), I can still definitely see where you are coming from.
In any case: that group owed you at least the decency of giving you a chance first before kicking you. Kicking players at the start is never justified. Just because someone's build is unusual or different that in no way means it can't work.Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 10:15PM2 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.
Knowing the HP of your group is an essential function and has been a base function in most MMORPG's since the 90's.
But it's not essential. You cannot determine if a healer is good or bad by looking to see if they have 40k health. As I just told you, you can still be a good healer on this game and have 40k health. That is not impossible.
Actually, you can. It means they don't know their class. If they don't know their class, then it is a surefire certainty that they won't be efficient to the group regardless of how good they think they are [e.g., "good versus efficient"]. I've had my fair share on both sides (of not knowing my class and once I corrected those mistakes, then being in groups with others who did not know their class).5 -
Arbit✭✭✭✭I just got kicked from black drake villa, cause I didn't have time to do the secret bosses. I thought that was incredibly lame of them to do that, always great when you tell them it sucks, and they come back to taunt you and block. I was doing 60-70% of the damage, so unfortunately I am hoping for ill will on them, that they didn't complete the dungeon. I feel sorry for the other dumb dps who helped kick me, as it was the healer and tank who were together, and the dps who hit like a wet noodle, will probably get kicked when they realize they're dead weight. I guess that's what I get for not pairing up before randoming.
You roll with the group's decision. That's demonstrating compromise and common courtesy. If they want to do the secret boss and you don't want to, then they find a replacement. Your spite of their success means nothing.
wow, I got kicked, not asked to leave. It was rude and disrespectful. I don't understand your mindset at all.Argonian Master Race
1 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People typically understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
No, mate. Disagree. I'm not a pro-healer with my setup, and certainly there are much better "pure healer" builds, but as a tank-healer, i absolutely have some really effective, powerful heals, so no, it's just a myth and doesn't reflect the truth of this game. Pure healer? No. Tanky build with decent healing good enough for most of the dungeons? Definitely yes. Able to change my setup in mid-run for a specific boss? OF course. Willing to change my setup for a specific boss? Absolutely.
Deserve to get booted before I even have a chance to play? No way.
You keep skipping around the point. There are only three player types: newbie, good (or effective), and efficient. Groups can indeed carry others with them based on how well they do collectively, but at the end of the day, if a person is only a good healer, the group ultimately suffers because they are not efficient with their class. I'm not saying you're not good with your build. I'm merely saying that you've gimped yourself because of it, and for that, you're good at best.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yikes....
If it was a kick on sight, that would be a valid reason to feel miffed, but they tried to understand what they were getting themselves in for and got nothing in return.
It can be hard to rise above feeling defensive, hurt and offended, but it probably would have gone differently with a polite reply explaining you're a good healer and to please give you chance.
Cause an underperforming player is annoying in a dungeon, but a bad attitude gets the boot.
He didn't state anything that was a bad attitude. The only one with the bad attitude was the dude "lmao" to mock him IMMEDIATELY before he had a chance to explain himself. If you think someone giving you a direct response has a bad attitude after you've MOCKED them, then I question how many "bad atttiudes" you've actually come across quite frankly.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 11, 2021 10:28PM1 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does efficient mean?
"Efficient" is an adjective that means accomplishing a result in the best possible way while saving time and effort.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/effective-vs-efficient
According to that definition, the terms "most efficient," "more efficient," "less efficient," and "least efficient" are utter nonsense, since (according to that definition) "efficient" is "the best possible," and there can't be varying degrees of a superlative or else it isn't really superlative.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.
Knowing the HP of your group is an essential function and has been a base function in most MMORPG's since the 90's.
But it's not essential. You cannot determine if a healer is good or bad by looking to see if they have 40k health. As I just told you, you can still be a good healer on this game and have 40k health. That is not impossible.
Actually, you can. It means they don't know their class. If they don't know their class, then it is a surefire certainty that they won't be efficient to the group regardless of how good they think they are [e.g., "good versus efficient"]. I've had my fair share on both sides (of not knowing my class and once I corrected those mistakes, then being in groups with others who did not know their class).
But it doesn't mean that. I've been playing a healer since beta and you expect me to believe just because I wanted to try out a healing build that had 40k health that suddenly means I don't know my class?
You are putting way too much emphasis on the amount of health someone has as an indicator of what someone knows or doesn't know.
And you keep bringing up this good vs "efficient" argument, yet you have yet to answer my question as to how that is even relevant here. So I'm going to ask this once again:
Are you suggesting that everyone using the activity finder should be built for maximum efficiency to either heal, dps or tank or they should be kicked at the start? If you could answer that simple question for me I would appreciate it.Edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2021 10:28PM2 -
hasi✭✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »I honestly can't feel bad for ya this time, because you basically showed up to a rec ice hockey game with everyone in their gear, and you're out here wearing pillows duct tapped to your legs, ice skates from 1972, a field hockey stick, and a stainless steel pot strapped to your head like "..alright guys, let's go do some hockey!.."
PVP trounces most PVE content in difficulty.
You did a few dungeons and say PvP is harder than most PvE content? What is hard about PvP? Killing a Player? Getting Emporer?
I want to see you get into a Veteran Trial with that Build and say that again, lol.
Also, you say the Dungeons you went into were easy, although you only saw them from one perspective? That perspective coming from the role you need the least in a Dungeon Scenario? In like, you are perfectly fine without it most of the time.
And yet you act like you added much to the previous Groups and degrade their performance?
10 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Exactly. That's the point.
People who play MMORPGs understand Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is common sense that a "40K HP toon equipped with a sword and board" will never be an efficient healer.
But that's simply not true.
You can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar.
I didn't say "not a good healer." I said "never be an efficient healer." There's a difference.
I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Are you suggesting that it's "common sense" for everyone who uses the activity finder who doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank, or DPS should be kicked at the start of a dungeon?
I hope you are not suggesting that.
What does effective (or good) mean?
"Effective" is an adjective that means achieving a result or intended purpose in a good or satisfactory way.
What does efficient mean?
"Efficient" is an adjective that means accomplishing a result in the best possible way while saving time and effort.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/effective-vs-efficient
In other words, a good player might help the group clear the content (they met the minimum), but an efficient player will help the group clear the content faster (they did an excellent job).
Does that help clarify the difference?
Again: so what are you suggesting here, that everyone who uses the Activity Finder and doesn't build their character for maximum efficiency to either heal, tank or DPS should be kicked at the start?
No. Because it's not possible to know a person's build. But it is also reasonable for a group to look at their attributes (hp, mana, stamina) and equipment (sword and shield) and then their group role (healer) and respond accordingly. That's being sensible, because nobody wants to burn 10-20 or more minutes on a dungeon run where they keep dying.6 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »I honestly can't feel bad for ya this time, because you basically showed up to a rec ice hockey game with everyone in their gear, and you're out here wearing pillows duct tapped to your legs, ice skates from 1972, a field hockey stick, and a stainless steel pot strapped to your head like "..alright guys, let's go do some hockey!.."
PVP trounces most PVE content in difficulty.
You did a few dungeons and say PvP is harder than most PvE content? What is hard about PvP? Killing a Player? Getting Emporer?
I want to see you get into a Veteran Trial with that Build and say that again, lol.
Also, you say the Dungeons you went into were easy, although you only saw them from one perspective? That perspective coming from the role you need the least in a Dungeon Scenario? In like, you are perfectly fine without it most of the time.
And yet you act like you added much to the previous Groups and degrade their performance?
They're saying it is more challenging because behind every toon is a person issuing unscripted commands. There's a high level of unpredictability. Unpredictability makes PVP inherently challenging.3 -
OutLaw_Nynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Imagine if me, a healer, came into pvp in full divines. It’s unfair on your dps and tank to have to carry someone built for pvp. You have add one that can easily swap gear and CP for you on a fly...7 -
hasi✭✭✭✭marshill88 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »I honestly can't feel bad for ya this time, because you basically showed up to a rec ice hockey game with everyone in their gear, and you're out here wearing pillows duct tapped to your legs, ice skates from 1972, a field hockey stick, and a stainless steel pot strapped to your head like "..alright guys, let's go do some hockey!.."
PVP trounces most PVE content in difficulty.
You did a few dungeons and say PvP is harder than most PvE content? What is hard about PvP? Killing a Player? Getting Emporer?
I want to see you get into a Veteran Trial with that Build and say that again, lol.
Also, you say the Dungeons you went into were easy, although you only saw them from one perspective? That perspective coming from the role you need the least in a Dungeon Scenario? In like, you are perfectly fine without it most of the time.
And yet you act like you added much to the previous Groups and degrade their performance?
They're saying it is more challenging because behind every toon is a person issuing unscripted commands. There's a high level of unpredictability. Unpredictability makes PVP inherently challenging.
I wouldn't say it's generally more challenging though. I play both and you can kill people easily in PvP, because there is so many running around like headless chickens with less skill capacity of NPCs.
In Trials and harder Dungeons lots of things depend on luck, individual performance and lastly teamplay for hard content.
Sure, you may also teamplay in PvP, but you can even be mediocre or bad with others making up your lack of individual performance. Also works to a certain point in PvE, but sooner or later it will be noticed as it downgrades the team's performance.
In PvP you'd be glad to have one more person, no matter how they perform. That's at least my experience.4 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Frankly, I don't see that as bullying. I see a group as being genuinely confused by your setup with the role you've decided. It's a valid concern they had.
While DPS is just as crucial as healers and tanks, healers are vital to the group's survival, and it appears they didn't trust your setup to help them get through the content without issue. Also, what they say about "sword and board 40k health healer" is valid. A pure healer is NOT going to have 40k HP sporting a sword and shield. So you might want to audit your spec on a site like Alcasthq.com and see how you can alter it to bring your A-game to group content.
It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be on their A-game when using the activity finder. You are going to encounter a variety of players from all walks of life, many with unusual or less than optimal builds. So people need to prepare themselves for that reality before using this tool. If a person has specific demands of a build, such as certain health requirements or no sword and shield then they should make their own group.
I haven't seen the OP in action, so I don't know if he or she can actually heal or not. But what I do know is that having 40k health and a sword and shield equipped on one of their bars would not automatically exempt them from being able to heal. So the kick was unjustified. They need to remove whatever addon that allows players to view another player's health. Because I see all kinds of crap thrown at other players over that, and at least 90% of the time it's unjustified.
That said, would you agree that "sword and board 40k health healer" is not A-game material? The very nature of whatever build and specs OP is using demonstrates they are not optimum for the role they chose for the dungeon, regardless of how well they perform. Case in point, my spec is pure DPS, and it even has minimal aggro pulling, but I wouldn't be at my A-game as a tank.
I would probably have to know more before I could make that determination. If the OP just has sword and board on his or her back bar, and doesn't use it to actually heal with it, then it shouldn't prevent them from being a good healer. And it's possible to manage 40k health and still throw out effective heals on this game. But from what I've seen, the OP isn't claiming to be the best healer out there. So whether or not they are an A-game healer seems irrelevant. My point was you can't go into the activity finder expecting to kick everyone who isn't an A-game player. That's just not a realistic approach. In my mind, so long as they can get the job done then there is no justifiable reason to kick them, and you have to give the person an actual chance first to find that out.
My own sense of it is the OP is likely a healer who went into a battleground and learned the hard way how imbalanced healing is when compared to the absurd amounts of damage on this game, so they started trying to improve their defense in an effort to be able to live. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I've been there and still remember the first time I went into a battleground on my healer. It was traumatizing. lol
You also can't go in expecting everyone to be ok with a 40k HP healer running sword and board.
Like I said, those group members shouldn't even know how much health that person has (that addon needs to be removed) and they didn't know if the OP was actually going to try to heal with a sword and board or not, because they never gave him or her a chance.
Kicks at the very beginning are never justified. And you can still be a good healer on this game with 40k health and a sword and board on your back bar. If people want to set specific requirements then they need to make their own groups. Otherwise the only thing that should matter is whether or not they can get the job they signed up for done.
Knowing the HP of your group is an essential function and has been a base function in most MMORPG's since the 90's.
But it's not essential. You cannot determine if a healer is good or bad by looking to see if they have 40k health. As I just told you, you can still be a good healer on this game and have 40k health. That is not impossible.
Imagine being a healer trying to heal someone but you have no idea how much health they actually have because you can't see their total. You won't be able to gauge if you're over healing or under healing, which will make your resource management way more unpredictable. In WoW you can see people's health bars and know whether you should burst heal them or just top them off with a dot. The same goes for all of the WoW clones, same with sandbox MMORPG's, etc.
It's also hard to kill another player or a boss without knowing how much health they have. PVP in ESO is reliant on performing burst combos, which itself requires you to know how much health a target has. Without that information, you'll have no way to know if a single attempt to kill a player within a burst window will be enough, or if you'll have to wait until they are closer to execute range before your burst damage will be enough.
But to respond to your point, I think group members are definitely entitled to know about everyone they are grouped with. There seems to be a mentality going around that "No one is allowed to know what I run or am doing, that's an invasion of my privacy...but they also have to accept me into their group without no information about me, and cannot complain about anything I do...". That type of thinking is very regressive, and does not promote healthy collaboration, which is the fundamental basis for achieving any type of goal with any kind of team.
You have to be able to extract your team's current capabilities and potential, as they need to be able to extract that information from you. Otherwise...everything is a die roll, and at that point...what is the point right?6
This discussion has been closed.